Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Not to the extent it is now.

Nah, it was more or less the same. We were just better at telling ourselves it made sense.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

37 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Nah, it was more or less the same. We were just better at telling ourselves it made sense.

Hence my point. Two Worlds made it a lot worse.

[Wraith]

Over the past 10 years Classic sonic fans have gotten just about every change they wanted for the series on the aesthetics/lore side short of a full on reboot. Sonic's friends were phased out for the classic Sonic/Tails/Eggman setup. Rolling green hills took precedence in marketing material. The complexity of the storytelling was rolled back a couple of notches. Alternate characters went from a series staple to a joke of a suggestion. Amy couldn't even be playable in a spinoff like Sonic Boom without a jab being thrown her way by an official outlet. 

It kind of forced me to realize that the Classic Sonic...setup? Really isn't all that interesting to me. Not on it's own. They're good games but that's in spite of their simplistic narratives and not because of them. Sonic is just more interesting when he has more personalities to bounce off of and the stories/lore of the series are more fun to think about when it takes more than a few cliffnotes about yet another magic island to sum it up. 

Swathes of cities populated by humans add to the grounded texture the classic games already implied. Characters with more pathos to them like Shadow and Blaze up the stakes without betraying Sonic's own perpetually carefree outlook. More serious villains have the potential to provide an alternative to Dr Robotnik's fun but ultimately toothless antics and challenge the cast in new ways. Sonic stories were just...better in the mid 2000s. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are probably the best stories they've ever done period. Even games like 06 have moments I like more than anything on either of the other two decades. There's room for improvement, but the path there isn't to take complexity away. It's to add to it. 

 

[Mountaindewandsprite]

Unpopular: I've never had a problem with humans in the Sonic series. They can be done well like in Unleashed and Sonic Universe comics.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Over the past 10 years Classic sonic fans have gotten just about every change they wanted for the series on the aesthetics/lore side short of a full on reboot. Sonic's friends were phased out for the classic Sonic/Tails/Eggman setup. Rolling green hills took precedence in marketing material. The complexity of the storytelling was rolled back a couple of notches. Alternate characters went from a series staple to a joke of a suggestion. Amy couldn't even be playable in a spinoff like Sonic Boom without a jab being thrown her way by an official outlet. 

It kind of forced me to realize that the Classic Sonic...setup? Really isn't all that interesting to me. Not on it's own. They're good games but that's in spite of their simplistic narratives and not because of them. Sonic is just more interesting when he has more personalities to bounce off of and the stories/lore of the series are more fun to think about when it takes more than a few cliffnotes about yet another magic island to sum it up. 

Swathes of cities populated by humans add to the grounded texture the classic games already implied. Characters with more pathos to them like Shadow and Blaze up the stakes without betraying Sonic's own perpetually carefree outlook. More serious villains have the potential to provide an alternative to Dr Robotnik's fun but ultimately toothless antics and challenge the cast in new ways. Sonic stories were just...better in the mid 2000s. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are probably the best stories they've ever done period. Even games like 06 have moments I like more than anything on either of the other two decades. There's room for improvement, but the path there isn't to take complexity away. It's to add to it. 

 

 

This is my biggest problem with the series at the moment, and I don't think Classic Sonic fans really understand the damage they're doing to the series with this mindset. I fully understand the preference for the aesthetic and gameplay, especially since its still the most successful and consistent Sonic style to date, so I get it. 

But then I have to ask, then what? The series has spent the entire last decade exercising itself of everything critics and classic fans have criticized, and we're still no closer to this proverbial golden game that apparently would have existed if we got rid of all of that stuff. If Mania is quite honestly the pinnacle of what Sonic as a series has to offer, then that's essentially an admission that there's no need to further improve. 

Sonic Forces is, quite honestly, the game that is the culmination of fans constantly criticizing the games and Sega's own apathy towards said criticism. It's a game that lacks any type of identity of its own, and slavishly slaps together the superficial aspects that fans have been asking for, but with no understanding of why they worked, because they've been told for years that anything they try doesn't work. 

And with Whitehead's team forming their own studio and likely not being commissioned for a new 2D game, I honestly have to wonder what lies in the future for this series. Are we just going to keep shamelessly trying to pander to people in attempt at being inoffensive or will the series finally regain its backbone and just put its best foot forward regardless of what people think of it? 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

This is my biggest problem with the series at the moment, and I don't think Classic Sonic fans really understand the damage they're doing to the series with this mindset.

Okay, no no no no no. Let’s not play this as any kind of lack of understanding, because quite frankly they’ve been at this arguably since Heroes and know full well what it is their doing.

The thing is that they don’t care—as long as they get exactly what they want, everything else means fuck all. And they’ll still mock and complain about anything outside of that sphere they’ve already gotten after more than a decade of demanding it.

All the damage Classic Purists (to separate the Classic fans who actually aren’t assholes about it) their doing as far as I can tell is intentional, as long as it doesn’t affect their precious tastes they’ve now gotten. After a decade of the loudest and worst elements that have made the general group among this fandom’s most infamous, trolling those with different tastes for liking aspects of this franchise that they don’t, and praising the loss of things—from multiple characters, fleshed out storytelling and world building, all the way down to the characters simply talking  so as to make their thoughts known—that people enjoyed in spite of the haphazard and often dubious quality even when it still doesn’t affect their side of things, it’s long time to calling the intentions what they really are.

The fact they they got what they wanted with Mania and still felt a need to troll those who wanted to enjoy Forces (quality notwithstanding), should have made this clear. And they’ll continue with this sentiment for as long as they can keep the steam rolling, which I’d say would only end when the Modern side of things gets its act together and starts making more decent works.

And that’s not even getting into the other bad apples.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Okay, no no no no no. Let’s not play this as any kind of lack of understanding, because quite frankly they’ve been at this arguably since Heroes and know full well what it is their doing.

The thing is that they don’t care—as long as they get exactly what they want, everything else means fuck all. And they’ll still mock and complain about anything outside of that sphere they’ve already gotten after more than a decade of demanding it.

All the damage Classic Purists (to separate the Classic fans who actually aren’t assholes about it) their doing as far as I can tell is intentional, as long as it doesn’t affect their precious tastes they’ve now gotten. After a decade of the loudest and worst elements that have made the general group among this fandom’s most infamous, trolling those with different tastes for liking aspects of this franchise that they don’t, and praising the loss of things—from multiple characters, fleshed out storytelling and world building, all the way down to the characters simply talking  so as to make their thoughts known—that people enjoyed in spite of the haphazard and often dubious quality, it’s long time to calling the intentions what they really are.

Well I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt; I don't wanna generalize people who honestly just prefer classic Sonic over modern Sonic versus yea, the purists that don't tolerate anything after 1998. 

[Wraith]

Sonic Mania was never the end goal. If you want to know what the end goal is, take a look at any of the many 3D Sonic fangames that have gained traction: An open ended, physics based 3D platformer with the aesthetic of the original games and a similarly subtle approach to storytelling/worldbuilding. The job isn't finished yet until that game exists, whether Sega ends up making it or the fans get together and do it somehow. 

It's not a bad way for the series to go, but I'm open to a lot of things as long as it turns out good and gives me more of my favorite characters. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt; I don't wanna generalize people who honestly just prefer classic Sonic over modern Sonic versus yea, the purists that don't tolerate anything after 1998. 

They don’t deserve it—they sure as hell wouldn’t give you one, so why give them that benefit?

But there is a distinction between a Classic fan and a Classic purist. It not a matter of generalizing than it is looking at the very character they’ve been displaying for years. There’s a difference in saying “I like the Classics,” “I couldn’t get into the series after Adventure,” or “the games these days don’t have that same charm as the Classics,” simply describing tastes compared to shit like “Get rid of all the characters after 1994,” “3D is the problem,” or “Sonic shouldn’t need a story or talk,” and the belittling attitude that always come after it. It’s much the same as if a Gen1 or 2 Pokémon fan (like myself) that either doesn’t fancy much of the generations after it or finds it difficult to get into but doesn’t find the need to waste energy mocking those who enjoy the later generations.

Simply put, one’s an asshole and the other isn’t. There’s not that much thought needed to differentiate the two beyond that.

Only problem is that the worst of them have spoiled the whole bunch and made all of them come off as the same.

[Speedi]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Mania was never the end goal. If you want to know what the end goal is, take a look at any of the many 3D Sonic fangames that have gained traction: An open ended, physics based 3D platformer with the aesthetic of the original games and a similarly subtle approach to storytelling/worldbuilding. The job isn't finished yet until that game exists, whether Sega ends up making it or the fans get together and do it somehow. 

It's not a bad way for the series to go, but I'm open to a lot of things as long as it turns out good and gives me more of my favorite characters. 

Yeah, this is why I tend to roll my eyes at the people who complain about the adventure games for not being straight up 1:1 translations of the genesis philosophy. They're on a quest for the ultimate Sonic game that will probably never exist if Sonic Team are the ones they want to make it.

 

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Speedi said:

Yeah, this is why I tend to roll my eyes at the people who complain about the adventure games for not being straight up 1:1 translations of the genesis philosophy. They're on a quest for the ultimate Sonic game that will probably never exist if Sonic Team are the ones they want to make it.

 

 

That only begs the question of what the Genesis philosophy is?

Usually the answer is more superficial than expected.

[Kuzu]

Probably a Sonic equivalent to Super Mario 3D Land/World; a 3D game that plays like the 2D ones. 

A lot of Sonic Adventure's concessions  were done as a result of Sega simply not having the technology at the time to create an actual 3D Classic game. Those concessions were somewhat accepted as a result, but then they became the central identity of the main games and idea of a 3D classic game just drifted further and further. 

 

We all know what  a Classic styled game is like, the question becomes how do you implement that with actual level design. Yes, I am aware of Sonic Utopia and all other fan games, but they kind of run into the same problem most fangames do, there's no actual level design to take advantage of what they're tryin to do and often feel like tech demos. 

For as much as people rag on Sega for not making a classic 3D game, fans aren't really any closer to getting there themselves. 

[Natie]

This is all a pretty intense way of speaking about 2 factions of people who like the same character. If you want my unpopular opinion, Sega should have been more consistent and careful that this kinda fandom diatribe would never happen in the first place. I miss when it was the adventure era and it still felt like the same Sonic from before, just building on what was established in the originals and expanding it. 

The separation created the purist, and nobody has learned from it at all. We have modern fans these days that'll scoff at anything that has classic stuff on it just like the "green eyes" people did years ago. I wish this shit never happened.

[Kuzu]

16 minutes ago, Natie said:

This is all a pretty intense way of speaking about 2 factions of people who like the same character. If you want my unpopular opinion, Sega should have been more consistent and careful that this kinda fandom diatribe would never happen in the first place. I miss when it was the adventure era and it still felt like the same Sonic from before, just building on what was established in the originals and expanding it. 

The separation created the purist, and nobody has learned from it at all. We have modern fans these days that'll scoff at anything that has classic stuff on it just like the "green eyes" people did years ago. I wish this shit never happened.

This segregation has long since existed since the Dreamcast ended production in 2001; do not think for a second that everyone was unified. This just comes with the territory when a series shifts its identity  as much as Sonic does. 

Its really no different from people who prefer classic Zelda to modern Zelda, or classic Pokemon to Modern Pokemon. The only difference is that those franchises actually have good games despite the division :V

[Natie]

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Its really no different from people who prefer classic Zelda to modern Zelda, or classic Pokemon to Modern Pokemon. The only difference is that those franchises actually have good games despite the division

Those good games mean that the fandoms aren't nearly as fatigued and angry as us lol.

Also I know there was always division cuz people have been bitches online since the begining, I just meant I miss when it wasnt validated by sega themselves and modern was just a later sonic. 

Now it's "Modern lives on a furry planet and cracks jokes and Classic doesnt talk and has no story or characters.", neither of which makes either fans happy and wasnt even true for either era. It's made dumb forum infighting escalate to an even worse level it makes me long for the times when we were like 14 and didnt care.

[Speedi]

2 minutes ago, Natie said:

Those good games mean that the fandoms aren't nearly as fatigued and angry as us lol.

Also I know there was always division cuz people have been bitches online since the begining, I just meant I miss when it wasnt validated by sega themselves and modern was just a later sonic. 

Now it's "Modern lives on a furry planet and cracks jokes and Classic doesnt talk and has no story or characters.", neither of which makes either fans happy and wasnt even true for either era. It's made dumb forum infighting escalate to an even worse level it makes me long for the times when we were like 14 and didnt care.

This is why In hindsight I think generations making the canon distinction between classic and modern was a mistake. Because by actually segregating the designs into specific aesthetics in a story you create fans who only want 2d games to use the genesis aesthetic and vice versa for 3d. Granted, I know this sort of discussion existed before generations but it sure didn't help.

I liked it when modern Sonic was just seen as an evolution of Sonic and could get 2d games without people complaining about it being the "wrong aesthetic".

[Kuzu]

Generations was fine as just a nice little nod and nothing more; the second they brought it back for Forces and actually decided to make them separate dimensional counterparts is when shit became pants on stupid. Because at that point, they were blatantly just trying to pander to classic fans by bringing him back and then trying to tie the game into Mania. 

Sega are so fucking afraid of letting these games stand on their own, they actively have to invoke Classic's image to get some type of good will in anyway. 

[Natie]

Yeah speaking as somebody who prefers the classic style and missed it a lot back in the I reeaally wish they woulda just stuck with what they were doing pre-06, cuz at least it was something consistent, sylish and appealing despite the flaws. These days they flounder around so much you dont get enough time to grow to like any new style they throw out, not to mention how they barely know what they want to be.

[Meta77]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Generations was fine as just a nice little nod and nothing more; the second they brought it back for Forces and actually decided to make them separate dimensional counterparts is when shit became pants on stupid. Because at that point, they were blatantly just trying to pander to classic fans by bringing him back and then trying to tie the game into Mania. 

Sega are so fucking afraid of letting these games stand on their own, they actively have to invoke Classic's image to get some type of good will in anyway. 

And that is sort of sad they have to rely on classic to get good press.

As most here have said there is a split in the fanbase from classic, to modern, from adventure style exploring to simply holding x to boost a entire stage.

As someone born when the series first started here stateside and had a genesis. This is JUST how at least for me ive perceived sonic. As a cool character with a lot of action. I preferred the satam show mostly cause it was darker and had action. like many shows around its time like biker mice, savage dragon, etc. Sure the adventure of sonic series was fun to watch cause it was still sonic I did not care for just pure no over arching plot outside making fun of eggmans butt size. As the games continued up to adventure I played and enjoyed each, but as time went on other games started to pop up to steal sonics thunder mostly anything on a playstation, from crash, spyro, jet moto, twisted metal, new genres and games started to drop and sonic did his best to stay in the race. Then adventure was announced. I still have the magazines talking about the game up to its launch. the images and excitement for a true 3d soinc game were so exciting. And they gave us actual story details, something only hinted at in manuals of the old games. So go through SA1 and 2. Both fun in their own right though sort aged poorly by the time shadow came out even newer games were coming in such as halo and most fans that started with him were getting older and not everyone but for me wanted to see sonic continue to grow with me so I could show my friends a more mature (not via guns) (though that is not why shadow was bad) sonic game cause back then being a nerd and gamer was not like it is now where everyone and their grandma can openly say yea I play sonic and not be picked at for it.

Sonic 06 gets announced and it actually LOOKS like a mature take on sonic, the opening, the action, the next gen FF opening. It was amazing. I had a cousin into other games come over and go damn is this a new FF game. I was like haha no its the new sonic. And even the demo for xbox controlled somewhat well. If they tuned that up a bit it could have been amazing. But then it dropped and it was a buggy mess. I still played and kept it but oh what a mess. Only finding out later they rushed it out the door, split the team, cut content, and had yuji leave out the blue. And instead of trying to improve on it from their mistakes simply dropped everything to try something new, aka boost, and then they dropped it again and continue to try things and when sales do not look good try something else, never truly sticking with something long enough. I started to feel let down after 06 the most. I liked the more realistic world. The humans looked ok but needed a little work. It was a huge shake for me to see them jump from those humans to those abominations in unleashed. But it still had a ok it tiring story. Sega honestly at times feels like they do not know what to do with modern sonic. I would love another studio to pick up the game for at least 1 game to try something fresh. Cause when I look at sonics social media accounts all we get is memes.....day in.....day out...just memes and that is what I see the series as now. Comedy folder. Except for Ian and Evan at IDW actually trying and succeeding at telling good stories and mixing comedy with drama and action well.

[BadBehavior]

So... on Retro, Josh of Geek Critique had some pretty insightful things to say. The conversation involved this meme I tastefully updated:

,and was around the difference of mainstream opinion between 06 and Forces. Might as well just quote him.

Quote

But I think that's the real difference between then and now. Sonic's status as a fallen franchise isn't nearly as pervasive as it once was. A specific sub-sect of Adventure fans might be going through the same thing many of us Genesis/Mega Drive kids did before, but their perspective doesn't line up with the mainstream the same way. ... And in a world where Mania is so well-regarded, "Sonic needs less 2D and more serious stories," is going to sound like nonsense to anyone outside the bubble.

Messaging is important. Echochambering about how much you hate 2D, GHZ, Classic Sonic, and "Baldy Nosehair" and how all of these things need to go in order for Sonic to be good is easy, but it's only going to appeal to people who already agree with you (and I'm using "you" in the indefinite sense of "everyone making this argument", not to refer to anyone specific).

I think you'd get a lot further focusing on what you DO want the series to be, instead of dumping on what you don't.

It made me realize that I'm finding especailly the bolded part rather difficult. Because I know what I want Sonic to be.

I want it to be the exact opposite of Forces:

No 2D sections infecting the stages like a pernicious cancer. But if it comes down to having 2D or never having a 3D sonic game ever again, then at the very least make them a side dish to the 3D main course; place them sparingly, don't stuff them to the gills with calories (on this case content), and don't quarter-ass the designs so hard that my 2 year old nephew could do better with Duplo blocks.
No 3D stages that are just hallways so empty that it feel like the interns made them. In my fantasy Sonic game, the boost formula would be confined to the trash can of Sonic to gather dust along with other failed concepts like Labyrinth and Heroes, but maybe it could be used in a less prominent capacity. It could be made more seamless, like Advance 2's super speed. Maybe even make it and end-game powerup like the Crash Dash. (And don't sell it as DLC like you tried to do with Super Sonic, don't think we forgot when you tried to pull that shit) Basically, make it something I have to earn and not something where I can stub my toe on an enemy and get a full boost gauge.
Controls that give Sonic the appropriate weight and heft and that he doesn't feel like he's got a supersized McDonalds mega meal sloshing around his stomach, propelling him in random directions when you jump
A story that actually tells itself out in cutscenes rather than fucking timeskip text. Well animated cutscenes, not the "babies first SFM project" tier like Colours.
Pontaff to go away to Nickelodeon or wherever so writers who know what they're doing can take the mantle (and while we're at it, actually keep an eye on them so they don't write asinine shit like "they've been torturing him for months" when that never actually happened),
For Sega to loosen the leash on their characters so shit like "Shadow is Vegeta and he doesn't have friends" never happens again.
Characters actually have a reason for being there that aren't just flagrantly disgusting pandering to people who aren't even going to buy the game you are inserting the pandering into,
Music that doesn't sound like my very soul committing seppuku
A story that isn't just people farting around doing shit no one cares about. @Kuzu said it best in the Netflix show thread:

Quote

Like I said, its less that Sonic doesn't take anything seriously; it's more how the narrative is presented. Actually, its' a pretty good point. Its not that Sonic is less serious, the stories are less serious, so it makes Sonic's attitude less special. When everything is serious, Sonic is the only one who refuses to give in and just confidently moves forward. It not only provides relief to the dire situations, it genuinely makes Sonic seem defiant when he's irreverent in the face of overwhelming odds. 

I think the difference nowadays is that Sonic is less "defiant" and more that the situations just aren't presented as dire enough for Sonic's attitude to really shine through. So it just makes him feel annoying, because nothing he faces FEELS dangerous. 

When Sonic is facing gods and  talking shit? that's badass. When Sonic is facing the likes of Deadly Six, who present no threat to him whatsoever, his attitude is nowhere near as charismatic. Infinite talks all of his shit, but Sonic beats him in every one of their fights. By contrast, it took Sonic three tries for him to finally beat Shadow. A Hero is only as good as the villains he faces after all. 

I could go on but I'd basically be describing a new Sonic Adventure game.

Most of the other stuff like graphics (basically, don't look like an uprezzed Wii U game) and voice acting (Schwartz Forever) wouldn't really make the game better per se.

To tie it into the topic of the thread, I guess the popular opinion that I share is that I want the next sonic game to basically not be anything at all like what's been released this decade.

[Wraith]

I actually think that Sonic 06's Sonic/Shadow/New character format might be the way to go for a new Adventure game. I like genre roulette as it's executed in SA2 but I don't mind giving it up to widen appeal. 

[Kuzu]

I'd just cut the middle man out and add Tangle and Whisper. A new 2D or 3D game with Sonic/Tangle/Whisper would be great; not only do they have abilities that fit in line with Sonic, it'd be easy cross promotion with the IDW comics. 

 

I Do want a Sonic & Shadow 2D game though; give the latter the slow time ability from his game to enhance his platforming, maybe that some other movement ability that I can't really think of it. You can literally make it Sonic's equivalent to Mega Man & Bass and really establish a 2D style for Shadow. 

[BadBehavior]

I made a joking mention on retro about a potential Forces 2 that replaced Classic Sonic with Tails...

the "monkeys paw" being that he played like a shitty version of Yoshi's island. He already has the hover/flutter, just replace his eggs with his 06 dummy ring bombs.

But now that  i think about it, I think it could be pretty neat if done well and not developed in the amount of time it takes for a Dualshock 4 to lose it's charge like Forces was. Give Tails more to do in 2D than just fly over everything and emphasize his kid genius aspect.

[Natie]

I'd say to hold off on the alt play styles until they make the main 3D Sonic gameplay actually work first for once.

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, Natie said:

I'd say to hold off on the alt play styles until they make the main 3D Sonic gameplay actually work first for once.

We have seen from Sonic Lost World that this is most likely nothing more than an excuse/euphemism for not wanting to do it.