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E-122-Psi
3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You seem to miss the part about her being a spy and a thief. That’s clearly where she and Knuckles differ.

That's why I asked why you had to phrase it as something much worse. :P

I admit I kinda miss 'jerkass Rouge'. I get why people didn't like the execution of Archie and Free Riders where they're a bit too on the nose about her being a bitch, but I think Rouge works better as a wild card, sometimes even playing both sides to her advantage. Then again, I don't really get why they made her a thief AND a government agent.

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I do prefer Rouge potentially in a game with Sonic & Tails,  but not really as a replacement for Knuckles. 

 

Also, I'd really rather not go into the whole master emerald discourse agian. 

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E-122-Psi
2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I do prefer Rouge potentially in a game with Sonic & Tails,  but not really as a replacement for Knuckles. 

I admit I kinda wanna see a game where they just experiment with loads of character chemistries we don't normally see. They've only dabbled with dynamics in previous games and I think it's why they struggle to balance the cast, since too many of them are self contained and don't work off of others, meaning spotlight management issues. Loads of fun chemistries leave more openings for many characters to get on board.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
4 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

That's why I asked why you had to phrase it so badly. :P

It not really badly phrased since it’s well known that Knuckles can be a stubborn hot-head who can fuck things over—The guy has been tricked three times in the games.
 

He’s not stupid to the point there’s no hope for him, but we’re not going to ignore his higher gullibility compared to Rouge who isn’t as easily fooled by comparison.

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E-122-Psi
10 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It not really badly phrased since it’s well known that Knuckles can be a stubborn hot-head who can fuck things over—The guy has been tricked three times in the games. He’s not stupid to the point theirs no hope for him, but we’re not going to ignore his higher gullibility compared to Rouge who isn’t as easily fooled by comparison.

Well there was that one time Rouge forgot she could fly and needed Knuckles to save her 'falling to her death'. XD

Rouge is kind of a smug snake, she thought she was calling all the shots because she could dupe Eggman (ironically the second biggest patsy in the Sonic series) but came out with nothing and more or less just rage quit in a childish sulk. Even if you're not a lunkhead like Knuckles, your shortcomings are punctuated when you think you're much more of a chessmaster than you really are.

Then again that's not really AGAINST her character potential, since flawed characters with competent qualities are more interesting to limelight.

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Most Sonic characters tend to be one and done; just tossing them in for a mixup would honestly revitalize interest potentially. 

 

Just....anything more than Sonic & Tails please. 

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
4 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well there was that one time Rouge forgot she could fly and needed Knuckles to save her 'falling to her death'. XD

Now let’s compare that to getting tricked by the same villain.

Fool him once, shame on you; fool him twice, shame on him; fool him three times...uh?

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E-122-Psi
7 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Now let’s compare that to getting tricked by the same villain.

Fool him once, shame on you; fool him twice, shame on him; fool him three times...uh?

In fairness Eggman has the IQ of 300 yet gets duped or used even more often.

Intellect is complicated. Many characters are smart in one field but are so clouded by it they act like dunces in others. Actually often these are the far more interesting 'geniuses' in fiction over the 'smart about everything' ones.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

You don’t need a high IQ to know not to trust someone who tricked you twice.

Doesn’t help that it doesn’t get explained how he got tricked the third time in Advance 2.

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Wraith

Rouge actually does questionable shit. Sonic is a straight edge. There's a reason they're not on a team together.

I think Sonic and Tails could use another third if they're serious about keeping Knuckles on the island though. Preferably a girl and probably not one of the established ones.

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E-122-Psi
7 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You don’t need a high IQ to know not to trust someone who tricked you twice.

Doesn’t help that it doesn’t get explained how he got tricked the third time in Advance 2.

In fairness, Eggman kinda throws that idiot ball on a lot of the heroes. For all Sonic mocks Knuckles, he's got duped by Eggman a good few times too (eg. Unleashed).

Knuckles is a gullible lunkhead, that is quite sure. My point is that he, even with that, isn't the sole idiot ball holder of the franchise. Eggman and Rouge are smug snakes who think they're chessmasters but often get played by someone else, Sonic is arrogant and reckless (at least Knuckles never got tricked TWICE in the same game like Sonic pulled a leeroy jenkins). Vector is a money hungry goof. In Sonic Boom Knuckles was straight up a moron, but didn't really fuck up the situation that much more often than the others.

A dimwit isn't necessarily more harmful than a relatively intelligent character that thinks they're a lot smarter than they really are is what I mean.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

Would be a great opportunity to bring Honey back into the fray then.

Or transfer Sticks over from Boom with a retooling of her conspiracy nut character.

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E-122-Psi
6 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Would be a great opportunity to bring Honey back into the fray then.

Or transfer Sticks over from Boom with a retooling of her conspiracy nut character.

I'll have Sticks if they have her do more crazy shit than just ramble about robots, which got old after a while (especially with that screechy voice).

I really love the idea of a paranoid Dale Gribble type in the Sonic cast (the hero cast no less). Actually weird Boom didn't do more with that, especially with how most Sonic cartoons favour the OCs.

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Wraith
9 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Would be a great opportunity to bring Honey back into the fray then.

Or transfer Sticks over from Boom with a retooling of her conspiracy nut character.

Or make a new character probably

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Or make a new character probably

As much as it will be judged on its own merits, I’d honestly rather they not do that and start digging and remaking old characters into new roles similar to their old ones. 

Barring any legal issues, they have plenty they can dig up from the past. And they’d be considered new characters to an audience that hasn’t seen them before anyway—there’s plenty of characters from Fleetway that I know little about that could use a fresh breath of air (but I hear that one is in a legal conundrum anyway so, just a thought).

Edit: Or we could bring Shade the Echidna back! :) 

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Wraith
4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

As much as it will be judged on its own merits, I’d honestly rather they not do that and start digging and remaking old characters into new roles similar to their old ones. 

Barring any legal issues, they have plenty they can dig up from the past.

Except there's no point in using an old character if they literally don't fit the role I need them to fit.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Except there's no point in using an old character if they literally don't fit the role I need them to fit.

That’s why you’d remake and retool them.

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Wraith
6 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That’s why you’d remake and retool them.

That'd build the expectation that they'd behave like their old selves even though they'd logically couldn't because they'd fill a completely different role.

You'd literally just be banking off of the dopamine rush of recognizing a character before letting people down. I assumed this is the type of cheap fanservice Sonic fans wanted less of.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

That'd build the expectation that they'd behave like their old selves even though they'd logically couldn't because they'd fill a completely different role.

You'd literally just be banking off of the dopamine rush of recognizing a character before letting people down. I assumed this is the type of cheap fanservice Sonic fans wanted less of.

Not really? A character’s role and their personality are two different things, dude. And believe it or not, they can behave as their old selves while having a new role.

What I would be banking on is older fans recognizing a character in a new light and newer fans getting to know an old character from the past, all while keeping the spirit of the characters intact. Like how many incarnations has Sonic himself had already since 1991, each with different backgrounds (vagabond, Freedom Fighter, Prince with a brother and sister, creature from another world, etc.) and style but still keeping him the wise-cracking teenage speedster he’s known as?

And I’d think people would love the fanservice if you put some actual substance into it, which is what I’m saying here.

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DabigRG
9 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

I think the Master Emerald would be safer in Rouge's hands than in those of Knuckles. Think about it: Knuckles is currently its only line of defense, whereas Rouge could (and probably would) keep it under the highest security she can afford, which is pretty damn high considering how rich she is.
The only "downside" to this is that the status quo would have to change slightly. Angel Island would no longer levitate, and Knuckles wouldn't be the Guardian of the Master Emerald anymore. I think both of these are acceptable losses though. In fact it would free Knuckles up a little, allowing him to be used in more games without people saying "What about the Master Emerald?"

That's basically inviting any other thief or villain with the know how or need for a challenge to come steal it.

3 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Or you could just replace Rouge with Knuckles as part of Team Sonic.

We could use more girls anyway. Plus, she’s far more level-headed and competent than Knuckles given her occupation as a thief and spy, and she can pull up far more information than he ever could.

Honestly, Knuckles makes more sense in that his ancient mysticism background and argumentative personality adds something to the team that the other two don't.

51 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

That's why I asked why you had to phrase it as something much worse. :P

I admit I kinda miss 'jerkass Rouge'. I get why people didn't like the execution of Archie and Free Riders where they're a bit too on the nose about her being a bitch, but I think Rouge works better as a wild card, sometimes even playing both sides to her advantage. Then again, I don't really get why they made her a thief AND a government agent.

The government agent angle makes more sense from a Sonic X standpoint: it's a situation where her skills were deemed useful enough for her to leverage.

This was apparently the case in SA2 to begin with, based on her radio conversation.

49 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I admit I kinda wanna see a game where they just experiment with loads of character chemistries we don't normally see. They've only dabbled with dynamics in previous games and I think it's why they struggle to balance the cast, since too many of them are self contained and don't work off of others, meaning spotlight management issues. Loads of fun chemistries leave more openings for many characters to get on board.

It'd certainly help those who aren't that fleshed out or popular.

41 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Now let’s compare that to getting tricked by the same villain.

Fool him once, shame on you; fool him twice, shame on him; fool him three times...uh?

Was the second time really being tricked so much as a seed of doubt situation? 

That and SA2 suggests that the Master Emerald, it's Shards, and the Chaos Emeralds all share the same wavelength.

32 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You don’t need a high IQ to know not to trust someone who tricked you twice.

Doesn’t help that it doesn’t get explained how he got tricked the third time in Advance 2.

Wasn't there something about him not using it willfully, with one attack in particular being unused?

10 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

As much as it will be judged on its own merits, I’d honestly rather they not do that and start digging and remaking old characters into new roles similar to their old ones. 

Barring any legal issues, they have plenty they can dig up from the past. And they’d be considered new characters to an audience that hasn’t seen them before anyway—there’s plenty of characters from Fleetway that I know little about that could use a fresh breath of air (but I hear that one is in a legal conundrum anyway so, just a thought).

Edit: Or we could bring Shade the Echidna back! :) 

 

4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That’s why you’d remake and retool them.

Just like the Chaotix

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Dr. Mechano
6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You'd literally just be banking off of the dopamine rush of recognizing a character before letting people down. I assumed this is the type of cheap fanservice Sonic fans wanted less of.

Nah.

I'm 100% for franchise fanservice. We can talk all day about how it's not the most innovative thing to do from a literary standpoint, but I mean, seeing old characters come back is fun. I can't tell you how exciting it was when the Chaotix came back in Heroes, which I never would have expected in a hundred years. I was convinced they were effectively dead as far as the games were concerned. 

You could easily bring back Fang, and longtime fans would be excited to see him again. And he'd easily fit into the role of a money-motivated minor villain for the series, so nobody would be "let down" by bringing him back.

With a character as ill-defined as Honey, it'd be even easier. You could make that character anything, and it wouldn't contradict her one appearance (she actually did appear proper in the PS3 re-release of Fighters, so she's an "official" character now, not just a dummied-out one).

Lots of fans like seeing old stuff come back. It's just a matter of doing it well.

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DabigRG

It's may also be worth noting that Sega apparently had no issue with Archie using the Nocturnes during the reboot 

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Wraith
4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

A character’s role and their personality are two different things, dude. And believe it or not, they can behave as their old selves while having a new role.

What I would be banking on is older fans recognizing a character in a new light, while keeping the spirit of the characters intact. Like how many incarnations has Sonic himself had already since 1991?

 

3 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Nah.

I'm 100% for franchise fanservice. Seeing old characters come back is fun. I can't tell you how exciting it was when the Chaotix came back in Heroes, which I never would have expected in a hundred years. I was convinced they were effectively dead as far as the games were concerned. 

You could easily bring back Fang, and longtime fans would be excited to see him again. And he'd easily fit into the role of a money-motivated minor villain for the series, so nobody would be "let down" by bringing him back.

With a character as ill-defined as Honey, it'd be even easier. You could make that character anything, and it wouldn't contradict her one appearance (she actually did appear proper in the PS3 re-release of Fighters, so she's an "official" character now, not just a dummied-out one).

Lots of fans like seeing old stuff come back. It's just a matter of doing it well.

I don't mind bringing back old characters, but if the role I'm describing doesn't fit them, they need not apply.

I'm also kind of....over fellatiating old Sonic fans of all types. If this series wants to grow, it(and it's fanbase) needs to get out of it's own head.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

I don't mind bringing back old characters, but if the role I'm describing doesn't fit them, they need not apply.

What role then?

A female character not of the established cast isn’t exactly a well defined role to narrow down. You literally have dozens to pick from (old and new) with that description alone.

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Diogenes
1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Lots of fans like seeing old stuff come back. It's just a matter of doing it well.

Right but twisting a character into something they're not isn't "doing it well". If you've got a role to fill and there's some old dead character suited to it then sure, that's a valid option. But resurrecting old characters shouldn't be inherently prioritized over making new ones to the point that we're bashing them out of shape to make them fit. It's not good to the character and it's not good to the story you're trying to use them to tell.

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