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Dr. Mechano
Just now, Wraith said:

I'm also kind of....over fellatiating old Sonic fans of all types. If this series wants to grow, it(and it's fanbase) needs to get out of it's own head.

I mean, almost every  platformer (and even plenty of spinoffs) in the series has introduced at least one new character.

Bringing back an old character doesn't lock the game in to not doing anything new. This isn't an either-or situation here. I don't think the Sonic series is lacking in expanding its roster.

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Right but twisting a character into something they're not isn't "doing it well". If you've got a role to fill and there's some old dead character suited to it then sure, that's a valid option. But resurrecting old characters shouldn't be inherently prioritized over making new ones to the point that we're bashing them out of shape to make them fit. It's not good to the character and it's not good to the story you're trying to use them to tell.

How do you feel about the return of the Chaotix in Heroes? I think they were arguably shoehorned into a new role that didn't match their original appearance, since in Knuckles' Chaotix they weren't detectives. They were just kinda a ragtag group of good guys who teamed up with Knuckles.

This is a situation where I think they could have really easily made three new "detective" characters just as well, but they chose to bring back long-inactive ones instead. And I think it went fine, honestly.

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Wraith
5 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, almost every  platformer (and even plenty of spinoffs) in the series has introduced at least one new character.

Bringing back an old character doesn't lock the game in to not doing anything new. This isn't an either-or situation here. I don't think the Sonic series is lacking in expanding its roster.

They technically bring in new characters often, but they rarely ever bring in new regulars, and even the ones that do exist(Orbot, Cubot the D6) are villains. Another heroic character is actually a pretty rare phenomenon at this point.

My suggestion, since I get the sense that it's being lost in the weeds of the argument, was another heroic character that could travel with Sonic and Tails that doesn't have any baggage attached and maybe has a design/abilities that lend themselves well to movement based gameplay gimmicks Ala Tails's flight. No master emerald to watch, no distain for the heroes to work around, no kingdom to rule, no abilities that are too "out there" to make into a playstyle.

The only character I can think of for that role, in any continuity, is Tangle, and I'm assuming Sonic team plans to stick to their philosophy of only using characters they made going forward anyway.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

The case of the Chaotix only proves the point in the viability of retooling old unused characters.

They kept Vector’s interest in music, they added to Espio’s invisibility by making him a ninja...and I’m not sure what they did with Charmy barring reducing his age and his attitude to go with it.

Then again, only three of the original Chaotix members were used while the others was barred to the Classic brand, but that’s a whole different discussion altogether.

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Dr. Mechano
4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

They technically bring in new characters often, but they rarely ever bring in new regulars, and even the ones that do exist(Orbot, Cubot the D6) are villains. Another heroic character is actually a pretty rare phenomenon at this point.

That's a fair criticism.

Not counting the Avatar since, I mean, they aren't really a defined "character" in the same sense we're talking about, the last time a brand new playable hero was introduced in the series was... what? Silver? 

Honestly yeah, we're overdue. 

(EDIT: Technically you play as Chip in the golem phase of the Dark Gaia fight I guess but that's not really in the spirit of what we're talking about.)

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Diogenes
6 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

How do you feel about the return of the Chaotix in Heroes? I think they were arguably shoehorned into a new role that didn't match their original appearance, since in Knuckles' Chaotix they weren't detectives. They were just kinda a ragtag group of good guys who teamed up with Knuckles.

It's a bit of a mixed bag. Going all in on Espio being a ninja feels out of place; it suits his natural abilities, sure, but it's such an outlandish theme come completely out of nowhere. Vector isn't all that different between games, still big and tough but ultimately nice and always brings his music with him. Original Charmy just seems like a non-entity to me, new Charmy is arguably better by virtue of actually being something, but if he wasn't a package deal with the other two I don't think there's much to justify him.

The detective thing is easy enough to swallow since Espio was apparently a detective back in Knuckles' Chaotix. If they had wanted direct continuity between the two games regarding these characters it would be easy to say they just stuck together after KC, putting their skills together to investigate whatever other strange incidents caught their curiosity. Only thing is that they went so hard on ninja Espio that the actual detectiving has largely fallen to Vector so it doesn't flow entirely naturally.

Also it's worth noting that the primary reason for bringing them back probably wasn't because they really wanted a team of detectives, but to be a trio of "Sonic heroes". Bringing back a bunch of existing characters was the goal, so a whole team of new characters wouldn't have served that purpose.

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Splash the Otter
12 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Sure.

Instead of Knuckles, you can use Rouge in his place instead.

She can basically do everything he can to help Sonic and Tails.

And how exactly would that give Knuckles the freedom he deserves?

11 hours ago, DabigRG said:

That's basically inviting any other thief or villain with the know how or need for a challenge to come steal it.

Not any more than placing it under the protection of a mentally challenged echidna and literally nothing else.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
23 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

And how exactly would that give Knuckles the freedom he deserves?

By letting him mind his own business in peace.

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DabigRG
1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

And how exactly would that give Knuckles the freedom he deserves?

Not any more than placing it under the protection of a mentally challenged echidna and literally nothing else.

But yes. Yes it is: keep in mind that the socially inept Knuckles is the way he is because he grew up on an island floating so high in the sky that few knew about it outside of legend--Eggman and Sonic found it by complete accident. It was only after they started meddling and got his island noticed by archeologists that the former and of course Rouge herself targeted it.

And even they realized it was more trouble than it's worth considering only the Nocturnus(who have history with his ancestors) and Dr. Nega (who targeted it's future counterpart) have bothered it since.

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's a bit of a mixed bag. Going all in on Espio being a ninja feels out of place; it suits his natural abilities, sure, but it's such an outlandish theme come completely out of nowhere. Vector isn't all that different between games, still big and tough but ultimately nice and always brings his music with him. Original Charmy just seems like a non-entity to me, new Charmy is arguably better by virtue of actually being something, but if he wasn't a package deal with the other two I don't think there's much to justify him.

The detective thing is easy enough to swallow since Espio was apparently a detective back in Knuckles' Chaotix. If they had wanted direct continuity between the two games regarding these characters it would be easy to say they just stuck together after KC, putting their skills together to investigate whatever other strange incidents caught their curiosity. Only thing is that they went so hard on ninja Espio that the actual detectiving has largely fallen to Vector so it doesn't flow entirely naturally.

Also it's worth noting that the primary reason for bringing them back probably wasn't because they really wanted a team of detectives, but to be a trio of "Sonic heroes". Bringing back a bunch of existing characters was the goal, so a whole team of new characters wouldn't have served that purpose.

The Chaotix are effectively new versions of characters, since Chaotix is evidently not very canon. Plus, they were intentionally kept in as the "wacky wayside tribe of weirdos" team--Espio is still a hot blooded hater of Eggman in addition to being a ninja who takes things seriously, Charmy either had his personality flip from polite to hyperactive to distinguish him from the other two kids or was intended to be a kid the whole time since the age 16 thing was an American thing, and Vector carried over his streetwise music loving personality into being the charismatic leader who loves money.

They're intentionally supposed to be oddballs of the cast, punctuated by being a bunch of reptiles and insects among a cast of mammals and one marsupial.

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17 hours ago, Wraith said:

They technically bring in new characters often, but they rarely ever bring in new regulars, and even the ones that do exist(Orbot, Cubot the D6) are villains. Another heroic character is actually a pretty rare phenomenon at this point.

My suggestion, since I get the sense that it's being lost in the weeds of the argument, was another heroic character that could travel with Sonic and Tails that doesn't have any baggage attached and maybe has a design/abilities that lend themselves well to movement based gameplay gimmicks Ala Tails's flight. No master emerald to watch, no distain for the heroes to work around, no kingdom to rule, no abilities that are too "out there" to make into a playstyle.

The only character I can think of for that role, in any continuity, is Tangle, and I'm assuming Sonic team plans to stick to their philosophy of only using characters they made going forward anyway.

The annoying part is that Sega are never going to do this, because they know for a fact that if they replaced Knuckles in Team Sonic, the fanbase would fucking riot. 

 

I've noticed that's been...I don't want to say a "problem", but its something that the more characters this series introduces, it inevitably mean the older characters fall out of the spotlight and to the wayside. It's how people felt about Knuckles being displaced as "Sonic's rival" when Shadow was introduced and how fans felt about Chip in Unleashed being prioritized over Tails, despite the fact that the game isn't about Tails. 

 

It often feels like fans want their cake and eat it too; they want all of the old fan favorites to stay relevant, but also want new and exciting things introduced as well. 

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Wraith
7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The annoying part is that Sega are never going to do this, because they know for a fact that if they replaced Knuckles in Team Sonic, the fanbase would fucking riot. 

 

I've noticed that's been...I don't want to say a "problem", but its something that the more characters this series introduces, it inevitably mean the older characters fall out of the spotlight and to the wayside. It's how people felt about Knuckles being displaced as "Sonic's rival" when Shadow was introduced and how fans felt about Chip in Unleashed being prioritized over Tails, despite the fact that the game isn't about Tails. 

 

It often feels like fans want their cake and eat it too; they want all of the old fan favorites to stay relevant, but also want new and exciting things introduced as well. 

Knuckles has been in and out of that third man spot since he's been introduced and it hasn't caused much controversy outside of niche fan circles so I'm not sure if anyone would care that much being honest. Not saying that he's not important, or that he's not well liked. Just that people seem fine with him as a more irregular appearance that isn't constantly on Sonic's arm anyway.

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2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Knuckles has been in and out of that third man spot since he's been introduced and it hasn't caused much controversy outside of niche fan circles so I'm not sure if anyone would care that much being honest. Not saying that he's not important, or that he's not well liked. Just that people seem fine with him as a more irregular appearance that isn't constantly on Sonic's arm anyway.

I feel like that's only because there's an expectation that he'll inevitably return to said third man spot, which is generally the case. There's also the fact that Sega still heavily market him that way, so as far as the general public is concerned, he never left. 

If they actually went and fully replaced him with another character in that third spot and they properly marketed that character, then I think people have more of a problem with it, and it would inevitably make said character more controversial within fan circles. At the height of his popularity, Shadow was divisive for similar reasons, getting more focus than the OG's. 

 

Now, to be perfectly honest with you, I honestly wouldn't care because lord knows Sonic needs something fresh and a new character in a major spotlight might be just that. I'm just pointing out that whenever that happens in a long running franchise like Sonic, it generally causes controversy among the older fans who prefer the original stuff. 

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Celestia

I'm fine with just having Amy as the one that goes with Sonic & Tails, as we've seen at times recently. That said, I find the three member team talk kind of unnecessarily restricting anyway, and also it reminds me of Sonic Heroes which fucking sucks, so I don't really know what to say there. Depending on the story and/or which characters are playable, just about anyone could go with them and it could make sense.

 

 

18 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Then again, I don't really get why they made her a thief AND a government agent.

I always assumed she made a deal with them to avoid being thrown in prison or something. She helps with serious potentially world takeover/ending shit and they shrug off her stealing some measly diamonds here and there.

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The only reason the three man structure is so popular isn't just because of Heroes, but Sega have always marketed Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles as the primary power trio of the series, so that's what people focused on. 

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Celestia
31 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The only reason the three man structure is so popular isn't just because of Heroes, but Sega have always marketed Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles as the primary power trio of the series, so that's what people focused on. 

True, but it like...legitimized it I guess? I wasn't being serious with that part anyway.

Except the part about Heroes being horrible. For what it's worth, I was genuinely kind of bummed going back to it many years later only to discover I couldn't tolerate it anymore. Is this opinion popular or what because I can't even tell anymore.

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Dr. Mechano
16 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Except the part about Heroes being horrible. For what it's worth, I was genuinely kind of bummed going back to it many years later only to discover I couldn't tolerate it anymore. Is this opinion popular or what because I can't even tell anymore.

I never liked Sonic Heroes.

It's a super unpolished, janky game that asks you to essentially beat it four times. Three of the four stories are way too similar gameplay experiences; just the exact same levels with varying length and enemy placement, with characters who are more-or-less clones of each other aside from a couple of distinct moves. Chaotix's story does something different, but a lot of those missions feel like plodding busywork so I didn't find much of it fun either.

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E-122-Psi
18 hours ago, Wraith said:

They technically bring in new characters often, but they rarely ever bring in new regulars, and even the ones that do exist(Orbot, Cubot the D6) are villains. Another heroic character is actually a pretty rare phenomenon at this point.

I mean in fairness, I can kinda see why. Not just because of the 'too many protagonists' complaint in the past, but also the villain roster is incredibly underdeveloped compared to the heroes. For a long time it was just Eggman a bunch of one shot kaiju. Giving Eggman some henchmen and a comedic evil rival team in recurrent roles fleshes out the opposition long term (even if it's still pretty limited in execution).

There are so many good guys you can do as long term cast members that feel like they add much to the main dynamic after all. We already have tons of sidekicks and rivals for Sonic, and a lot of others they don't even bother adding a unique dynamic or chemistry for, no wonder the cast felt so bloated after a while despite not having THAT many additions.  They were just adding more and more 'cool new character' without thinking what they added to the mixture, usually making them protagonists outright to sap more limelight than having much importance as supporting characters to Sonic (which even with desired limelight and development, is primarily what they're meant to be). Look how few actually have a role with Sonic as the sole main hero. Just as few on the evil side with Eggman as the sole main villain.

I really feel they need to develop what they already have here to have an individual role to offer before adding MORE to the situation, and it's kinda bad it isn't much better after over a decade.

26 minutes ago, Celestia said:

True, but it like...legitimized it I guess? I wasn't being serious with that part anyway.

Except the part about Heroes being horrible. For what it's worth, I was genuinely kind of bummed going back to it many years later only to discover I couldn't tolerate it anymore. Is this opinion popular or what because I can't even tell anymore.

Heroes was very hit and miss, though I will give it credit for probably being the one to most try add synergies to a lot of characters.

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Wraith
16 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I mean in fairness, I can kinda see why. Not just because of the 'too many protagonists' complaint in the past, but also the villain roster is incredibly underdeveloped compared to the heroes. For a long time it was just Eggman a bunch of one shot kaiju. Giving Eggman some henchmen and a comedic evil rival team in recurrent roles fleshes out the opposition long term (even if it's still pretty limited in execution).

There are so many good guys you can do as long term cast members that feel like they add much to the main dynamic after all. We already have tons of sidekicks and rivals for Sonic, and a lot of others they don't even bother adding a unique dynamic or chemistry for, no wonder the cast felt so bloated after a while despite not having THAT many additions.  They were just adding more and more 'cool new character' without thinking what they added to the mixture, usually making them protagonists outright to sap more limelight than having much importance as supporting characters to Sonic (which even with desired limelight and development, is primarily what they're meant to be). Look how few actually have a role with Sonic as the sole main hero. Just as few on the evil side with Eggman as the sole main villain.

I really feel they need to develop what they already have here to have an individual role to offer before adding MORE to the situation, and it's kinda bad it isn't much better after over a decade.

I don't think the fact that they were adding new characters was a problem though. To me it was more like they would drop new characters into a game that already had 8 or 9 characters in it. Otherwise...I think new characters should just be a semiregular thing. Heroes. villains, civillians etc. If Sonic is a nomad he's probably going to be meeting interesting new folk all the time, right?

And I mean, I don't mean to crush anyone's hopes, but if they had any further plans for characters like Blaze or Omega I think they would have acted on them by now. They genuinely seem disinterested in the old cast, so maybe they should try something new that they are interested in.

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I get the complaint, but people need to realize that there's only but so much you can do with one individual character. I know we all want our favorites to be relevant forever and for them to always be around, but that's not realistic in the long term as we can see here. At some point, the creators are going to grow tired of trying to force new ways for an old character to be relevant, especially when its only being done out of obligation to said character's fanbase that just wants to see them.

The Sonic fanbase wants all of these characters to be relevant "like they used to be", but completely ignoring the fact that they already had  their time in the spotlight. Characters come and go...that's how it works in long running franchises, and trying to force them to stay relevant is only going to damage them in the long run. 

 

Yes, adding more protagonists is a GOOD thing. You want a series to develop in new and interesting ways, even if its coming at the expense of the old stuff. I know it sucks, but a series has to move on eventually if its ever going to grow, and I feel like Sonic has been stagnant for so long because it's constantly struggling at finding new ways to reinvent itself while catering to the loud fan voices that want their old nostalgia to be catered to. 

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E-122-Psi
15 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't think the fact that they were adding new characters was a problem though. To me it was more like they would drop new characters into a game that already had 8 or 9 characters in it. Otherwise...I think new characters should just be a semiregular thing. Heroes. villains, civillians etc. If Sonic is a nomad he's probably going to be meeting interesting new folk all the time, right?

And I mean, I don't mean to crush anyone's hopes, but if they had any further plans for characters like Blaze or Omega I think they would have acted on them by now. They genuinely seem disinterested in the old cast, so maybe they should try something new that they are interested in.

I think it's a combination of that, along with their unwillingness to let go of these characters when their arc is over, while at the same time failing to developing a proper dynamic to work as long term foils.

Next Gen just felt like bloated fanservice in this regard. Loads of characters being in the story that didn't really add much or contribute anything meaningful to the story, or in cases like Blaze, were completely altered to fit whatever plot they wanted them to do. Even Sonic and Eggman to some degree felt like they were struggling for relevance, they didn't even interact with the main villain for the large part. The characters are meant to be mourning Sonic in the last story but how many have actually had a developed enough relationship with Sonic to actually be that upset about it?

I feel like this is a problem even in more professionally written takes like the comics. Sure, they might dabble in a few fun interactions as one offs and such, but really a lot of the cast are just extra heroes, not filling a distinctive role or dynamic  that Sonic can't. It's like trying to have rock band with over a dozen lead guitarists, but barely writing anything for bass, percussion, etc. There's probably just as many developed archetypes done effectively in the Mario franchise than there is in the Sonic one currently (eg. the sidekick, the love interest and high ruler, the main bad guy, the bad guy's dragon, etc).

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5 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think it's a combination of that, along with their unwillingness to let go of these characters when their arc is over, while at the same time failing to developing a proper dynamic to work as long term foils.

Next Gen just felt like bloated fanservice in this regard. Loads of characters being in the story that didn't really add much or contribute anything meaningful to the story, or in cases like Blaze, were completely altered to fit whatever plot they wanted them to do. Even Sonic and Eggman to some degree felt like they were struggling for relevance, they didn't even interact with the main villain for the large part. The characters are meant to be mourning Sonic in the last story but how many have actually had a developed enough relationship with Sonic to actually be that upset about it?

I feel like this is a problem even in more professionally written takes like the comics. Sure, they might dabble in a few fun interactions as one offs and such, but really a lot of the cast are just extra heroes, not filling a distinctive role or dynamic  that Sonic can't. It's like trying to have rock band with over a dozen lead guitarists, but barely writing anything for bass, percussion, etc. There's probably just as many developed archetypes done effectively in the Mario franchise than there is in the Sonic one currently (eg. the sidekick, the love interest and high ruler, the main bad guy, the bad guy's dragon, etc).

 

 

Eeehhh, Mario characters are static by design so they don't have to worry about continuity or whatever. It means their personalities and characters are open for interpretation by the fanbase, but Nintendo themselves have never actually given then any sort of character or developmental role. You might get hints here and there, but nothing really substantial. 

Sonic's always been different in that regard in how the series always attempted to give its cast a bit more pathos and emotional development as opposed to just leaving it up to the player. You can argue Sonic characters aren't as developed as they could and botched in many areas, but that attempt has always been made.

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E-122-Psi
11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Eeehhh, Mario characters are static by design so they don't have to worry about continuity or whatever. It means their personalities and characters are open for interpretation by the fanbase, but Nintendo themselves have never actually given then any sort of character or developmental role. You might get hints here and there, but nothing really substantial. 

Sonic's always been different in that regard in how the series always attempted to give its cast a bit more pathos and emotional development as opposed to just leaving it up to the player. You can argue Sonic characters aren't as developed as they could and botched in many areas, but that attempt has always been made.

It's more that even with that emptiness, Mario has more characters that feel like they have an intrinsic part in the main mix of it all.

Luigi is the sidekick and sometimes more expressive voice for Mario.

Princess Peach is the love interest but also the ruler of the heroes' world so the villain kidnapping her is FAR more integral to the stakes of the world around you.

Toads are mostly generic lackeys but they are largely assigned as NPC civilians and assistants to Peach, fleshing out the world a little, compared to Sonic's universe which isn't really consistent what inhabits Sonic's universe.

Bowser is the main villain, but also many lackeys such as Bowser Jr and Kamek that do his bidding in an intrinsic way. There are also alternative villains, often with more fleshed out personalities and dynamics with Bowser than most of the Sonic bad guys do with Eggman.

It's bare bones sure, but it's an attempt at consistent world and dynamic building that arguably Sonic has done even LESS of. We either get loads and loads of disconnected protagonists (eg. the SA-Next Gen era), a whole legion of soldiers that all do the same thing (eg. Forces and the comics), or just Sonic and maybe Tails against Eggman (eg. Colours onwards).

Only a few instalments have even bothered giving say, Amy a role fleshed out besides the love interest, other than that she's just another set of hands at best or dead weight at worst. Her getting kidnapped is far more unrelated to the main plot of most games than Princess Peach is.

Even worse for many characters that just sort of end up taking one of the main guys' place because they have no other importance besides just filling in their role. Most of the bad guys pre-the henchbots and Zeti were just bigger badder villains to supplant Eggman for example, while tons of characters usurped Knuckles as the main rival, reducing him to just another sidekick besides the rare times Angel Island is important to the story (which even in SA2 felt a bit shoehorned in).

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3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

It's more that even with that emptiness, Mario has more characters that feel like they have an intrinsic part in the main mix of it all.

Luigi is the sidekick and sometimes more expressive voice for Mario.

Princess Peach is the love interest but also the ruler of the heroes' world so the villain kidnapping her is FAR more integral to the stakes of the world around you.

Toads are mostly generic lackeys but they are largely assigned as NPC civilians and assistants to Peach, fleshing out the world a little, compared to Sonic's universe which isn't really consistent what inhabits Sonic's universe.

Bowser is the main villain, but also many lackeys such as Bowser Jr and Kamek that do his bidding in an intrinsic way. There are also alternative villains, often with more fleshed out personalities and dynamics with Bowser than most of the Sonic bad guys do with Eggman.

It's bare bones sure, but it's an attempt at consistent world and dynamic building that arguably Sonic has done even LESS of. We either get loads and loads of disconnected protagonists (eg. the SA-Next Gen era), a whole legion of soldiers that all do the same thing (eg. Forces and the comics), or just Sonic and maybe Tails against Eggman (eg. Colours onwards).

Only a few instalments have even bothered giving say, Amy a role fleshed out besides the love interest, other than that she's just another set of hands at best or dead weight at worst. Her getting kidnapped is far more unrelated to the main plot of most games than Princess Peach is.

 

I don't think that's an attempt at anything at all, that's just Nintendo using the most dime a dozen setup of a damsel in distress being kidnapped by an evil dragon and needing to be rescued by a heroic figure. It's literally the most basic story you can tell, which is the entire point. Nintendo intentionally keep things as basic and bare bones as possible so they don't have to worry about any writing issues. "Bowser kidnaps Peach, and Mario rescues her" that's it, you can literally do anything else from that premise alone. 

I'm not saying its a BAD thing mind you, because it works for Mario. But it's really not the same as what Sonic does at all. The only iconic character that's debuted in the main games since their inception was Bowser Jr, and he came out in a game that was the most drastically different from a traditional Mario game from 2002. 

 

The inherent value of the Mario characters and world is what you the player puts into it. Sonic characters have always had more thought put into their designs and stories than what generally goes into the Mario cast. They're both inherently different. 

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E-122-Psi
6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

I don't think that's an attempt at anything at all, that's just Nintendo using the most dime a dozen setup of a damsel in distress being kidnapped by an evil dragon and needing to be rescued by a heroic figure. It's literally the most basic story you can tell, which is the entire point. Nintendo intentionally keep things as basic and bare bones as possible so they don't have to worry about any writing issues. "Bowser kidnaps Peach, and Mario rescues her" that's it, you can literally do anything else from that premise alone. 

I'm not saying its a BAD thing mind you, because it works for Mario. But it's really not the same as what Sonic does at all. The only iconic character that's debuted in the main games since their inception was Bowser Jr, and he came out in a game that was the most drastically different from a traditional Mario game from 2002. 

 

The inherent value of the Mario characters and world is what you the player puts into it. Sonic characters have always had more thought put into their designs and stories than what generally goes into the Mario cast. They're both inherently different. 

But that's the thing, if Mario is a lot more basic than Sonic in terms of storytelling, why is Sonic arguably EVEN LESS developed and well meshed in terms of character dynamics and synergy? Why can at least Mario get some BASIC key individual roles working for characters (stereotypical as they may be) and yet Sonic for all it touts its cast more, just has tons of dead weight characters who exist solely for popularity?

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4 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

But that's the thing, if Mario is a lot more basic than Sonic in terms of storytelling, why is Sonic arguably EVEN LESS developed and well meshed in terms of character dynamics and synergy? Why can at least Mario get some BASIC key individual roles working for characters (stereotypical as they may be) and yet Sonic for all it touts its cast more, just has tons of dead weight characters who exist solely for popularity?

You can't fail at anything if you never try :V Mario's never tried to develop its cast or world, so its never had a chance to fail at it.

Sonic, for better or worse, tries to develop its world and cast beyond just basic archetypes. It doesn't always work out, but the attempt is always there.

 

If you prefer one over the other, fine. But I think you're really underselling the value these characters have had. Mario characters are functional, but that's all they are. If that's all you care about, fine. But Mario characters don't really inspire the same type of passion and devotion as Sonic characters do.

You don't see people making a bunch of Mario OC's for instance.

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E-122-Psi
8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You can't fail at anything if you never try :V Mario's never tried to develop its cast or world, so its never had a chance to fail at it.

Sonic, for better or worse, tries to develop its world and cast beyond just basic archetypes. It doesn't always work out, but the attempt is always there.

 

If you prefer one over the other, fine. But I think you're really underselling the value these characters have had. Mario characters are functional, but that's all they are. If that's all you care about, fine. But Mario characters don't really inspire the same type of passion and devotion as Sonic characters do.

You don't see people making a bunch of Mario OC's for instance.

Sonic only really puts effort when there's an individual arc involved. In terms of dynamics and synergies and making distinctive roles for each character besides 'another protagonist' it's actually MORE bare bones than Mario.

There's more to a character besides just their individual personality, there's also their dynamic within the grand scheme of things. How many characters are actually foils for Sonic or there to do a job he can't most of the time?

Pitting him with a smart strategic assistant (Tails, Sally) or a rival (Knuckles, Shadow, Jet) is about it and even those have waxed and waned due to not fleshing them out much more than they have to.

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