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7 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yeah, but ultimately they have to do things. And most of the characters outside of Sonic and Eggman have been reduced to commentating on the adventures rather than actively participating in them. In many cases - particularly noticeable in Forces, where Sonic's extended cast primarily showed up as interchangeable radio chatter - the game/story would hardly be different at all if they weren't there.

Obviously Mania's an exception to this trend, but we have no clue if it's going to get any sequels.

I mean...well yea, obviously lol. I think Psi is arguing that characters need to have simple yet effective roles in order to "function" properly. And while that's true to an extent, I don't really think that's the end all be all to how a character should work in a setting. Like, Sonic don't need to be in basic roles like "Hero's love interest" or "hero's sidekick" in order to be effective characters...they just need to be well written and actually contribute something worthwhile. 

We're mistaking "Characters have plotlines that [don't fit] in the series" and mistaking that for "Too many characters in any given game". Shadow's story didn't fail because it had too many characters that he doesn't bounce off, it failed because its trying to make a coherent story out of a branching path system. 

The reason the supporting cast struggle to do anything nowadays isn't because they don't have simple roles they can be utilized in, it's because Sega simply have no interest in actually doing anything with them, but still feel the need to add them anyway due to fan demand. 

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E-122-Psi

There's is obviously a LOT of factors to why the cast aren't being used properly nowadays, but I think a big problem with them beforehand was each one tended to be given a very self contained arc and after a while they didn't even contribute to world building or branching out so the other characters could co-exist.

Knuckles was considered a decent addition for example because his character and background actually built on previous lore, his personality had a chemistry with Sonic, and he just had a role to fill that no one else had yet (ie. the rival). I get those aspects can't be evident EVERY TIME he appears, but you'd think they would at least a few times to give him an agency, or at the very least they'd tie in some new idea for him rather than just have him there 'just because' struggling to have any importance. I'll give credit to the Sonic Riders series for trying to make him relevant again in some aspects that function well with his character, but that's generally the exception.

I don't want characters flanderized to just a simple archetype and foil, heaven knows flanderization is part of how we got some of these issues in the first place, but I feel like they should be branching out and gaining a 'core' to some degree, that would likely also be quite helpful to writing roles for them in the first place.

Even in some better written takes you see this problem prop up. Antoine is developed out of being just a comic relief rival for Sonic, fair enough. But what do they have him do within the main group in place of that afterwards? Swashbuckling in the background of fight scenes or making kissy faces at Bunnie. He no longer had a unique role to fill. Bunnie didn't even get much of that earlier, I think it's largely because she didn't get a lot of fun dynamics to play around with. Sure she's a powerhouse, but there's LOADS of powerhouses, and most of the time Sonic is OP anyway. Otherwise she's just 'another buddy'. Why use her over alongside Sonic over Sally, or Tails, characters who at least fill SOME role Sonic doesn't so as to have synergy with him?

Sonic has suffered for ages not from 'too many characters' but 'too many protagonists'. They finish their arc and then scratch their heads what to do with them next because they weren't designed to be versatile enough to work as supporting characters in new stories not tailor made for them. They weren't made to 'build' Sonic's world, they just clutter it.

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There's not many ways these characters can branch out unless you either write a storyline that supports them or give them their own spin off series. Like I said before, Sonic & Eggman are the main "core" you're referring to. If you have those two characters, you can tell any story in this series, because they serve as the foundation. 

If the problem is that the characters lack purpose and agency after their initial debut and often feel superfluous, then rather than simplify them into something basic in order to be "functional", just....don't use them unless it's necessary. 

Like, Knuckles doesn't need to be in every single game; that way when he does show up in an actually important role, it's actually significant. Not every character will be able to function like Tails and be Sonic's constant foil and companion.  Sonic's had tons of foils and companions, but that doesn't make them all of the same. The difference is in the details. 

You're too focused on how the characters functions in the metanarrative as opposed to how the character works in-universe. I don't really care about the former, the latter is where my interest is. 

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Splash the Otter
On 7/3/2021 at 10:40 AM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

By letting him mind his own business in peace.

I don't think you get it. What I want is for Knuckles to be able to appear in more games (specifically ones where Angel Island and the Master Emerald aren't part of the story) without people complaining that he's abandoning said plot devices. I thought I had a good idea for how to make that happen.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
3 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

I don't think you get it.

No, I perfectly get what you’re doing, ElectroKyurem. That’s why I made a tangent onto something completely different to drown it out over the past few pages and why people are instead having opinions on characterization and roles. ;)
 

(By the way, did anyone else actually believe me over replacing Knuckles with Rouge or did you catch on to the joke?)

Quote

What I want is for Knuckles to be able to appear in more games (specifically ones where Angel Island and the Master Emerald aren't part of the story) without people complaining that he's abandoning said plot devices. I thought I had a good idea for how to make that happen.

Or, here’s a revolutionary thought: maybe you could actually try and put more effort and creativity in using those plot devices to make Knuckles appear more instead of getting rid of them because you’re sick of people bringing them up when he appears with little justification (or trying to bait them with something you know from the start is silly—you’re not as slick as you think after having done this with random spites toward the Freedom Fighters multiple times).

Which, funny enough, would kill all birds with one stone: you can make Knuckles more involved, he wouldn’t be seen as abandoning said plot devices, it keeps everything about Knuckles character intact that people have been complaining about, and could even open more doors to explore about the character and actually develop him rather than doing it for shallow appearances for the sake of fanservice. Hell, as a bonus, it’ll even give him more freedom too as a result of this. In fact, they’ve been doing this in the Archie and later IDW Sonic comics, and as a result Knuckles is seen as a much better character in those places than he has been in the games by comparison.

Either that or, if we’re still going to actually push this, we can genuinely just replace Rouge with Knuckles and let Rad Red mind his own business in peace on his island without anyone bothering him. Or bring Shade the Echidna back, but eh.

Either way, try it some times—it actually keeps old concepts fresh and entertaining when you use them in new ways in a story. Some food for thought.

At any rate, I’m done having fun humoring you. B)

 

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DabigRG
4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

There's is obviously a LOT of factors to why the cast aren't being used properly nowadays, but I think a big problem with them beforehand was each one tended to be given a very self contained arc and after a while they didn't even contribute to world building or branching out so the other characters could co-exist.

Knuckles was considered a decent addition for example because his character and background actually built on previous lore, his personality had a chemistry with Sonic, and he just had a role to fill that no one else had yet (ie. the rival). I get those aspects can't be evident EVERY TIME he appears, but you'd think they would at least a few times to give him an agency, or at the very least they'd tie in some new idea for him rather than just have him there 'just because' struggling to have any importance. I'll give credit to the Sonic Riders series for trying to make him relevant again in some aspects that function well with his character, but that's generally the exception.

I don't want characters flanderized to just a simple archetype and foil, heaven knows flanderization is part of how we got some of these issues in the first place, but I feel like they should be branching out and gaining a 'core' to some degree, that would likely also be quite helpful to writing roles for them in the first place.

Even in some better written takes you see this problem prop up. Antoine is developed out of being just a comic relief rival for Sonic, fair enough. But what do they have him do within the main group in place of that afterwards? Swashbuckling in the background of fight scenes or making kissy faces at Bunnie. He no longer had a unique role to fill. Bunnie didn't even get much of that earlier, I think it's largely because she didn't get a lot of fun dynamics to play around with. Sure she's a powerhouse, but there's LOADS of powerhouses, and most of the time Sonic is OP anyway. Otherwise she's just 'another buddy'. Why use her over alongside Sonic over Sally, or Tails, characters who at least fill SOME role Sonic doesn't so as to have synergy with him?

Sonic has suffered for ages not from 'too many characters' but 'too many protagonists'. They finish their arc and then scratch their heads what to do with them next because they weren't designed to be versatile enough to work as supporting characters in new stories not tailor made for them. They weren't made to 'build' Sonic's world, they just clutter it.

 

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

There's not many ways these characters can branch out unless you either write a storyline that supports them or give them their own spin off series. Like I said before, Sonic & Eggman are the main "core" you're referring to. If you have those two characters, you can tell any story in this series, because they serve as the foundation. 

If the problem is that the characters lack purpose and agency after their initial debut and often feel superfluous, then rather than simplify them into something basic in order to be "functional", just....don't use them unless it's necessary. 

Like, Knuckles doesn't need to be in every single game; that way when he does show up in an actually important role, it's actually significant. Not every character will be able to function like Tails and be Sonic's constant foil and companion.  Sonic's had tons of foils and companions, but that doesn't make them all of the same. The difference is in the details. 

You're too focused on how the characters functions in the metanarrative as opposed to how the character works in-universe. I don't really care about the former, the latter is where my interest is. 

I feel like this conversation got turned around somewhere, but honestly it's a little bit of both: the metanarrative influences how the characters work in-universe, but it doesn't have to be stressed everytime that character is used Ina story.

Knuckles was used as an example of that for being different enough from Sonic that they butt heads occasionally as rivals or rather foils, but the combination of his experience with ancient murals, hot-tempered predilection to take potential threats seriously, and and the fact that they've known each other for a long time now allowed him to do things that contributed to the story of Zero Gravity in a way other characters either wouldn't or would do differently.  And the same game excludes Shadow, Rouge, Cream, Blaze, and Silver from the story because it didn't have anything for them to do nor a comfortable enough reasoning to just have them be around, while Amy got in because her role as someone who constantly pursues Sonic frequently gets her mixed up in whatever adventure he finds and her crush on him only comes up once when she first shows up.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

I think it’s important to differentiate between a role and a character’s relationship to each other, as these are separate small parts in an overall story being told.

A role would be a matter of why that character is even their in the story to begin with—general things like the protagonist and antagonist, but also supporting roles and general narrative roles. The point here is that they have to have a tying reason for being there, and in more ways than just being a friend, enemy, love interest, etc. More than that, they should add to the theme, whether directly or indirectly.

A relationship would tie into how that character is connected to another and how that would respond to the others actions. You know this as Sonic vs Eggman, their relationship as enemies to each other, which ties into one being the protagonist and the other the antagonist—that their focus is the reason their story is the one being told here, just like how it would be if we switched focus and made it Shadow vs Black Doom, Sonic vs Shadow, Shadow vs Knuckles. The more you add, then the other becomes the deuteragonist, tritagonist, etc. but that is the Role/Relationship connection in a nutshell.


This isn’t strictly protagonist/antagonist centered tho, because there is the question of the theme that blends these together beyond “hero beats up bad guy” which is where the importance part comes in. For example, Amy in SA2 is mainly just a love interest, but she helps Sonic break out of prison which aids in him and Tails saving the world, and turning Shadow to the side of good. But that last part is more impactful for the theme of the game: Revenge—she turns Shadow away from it and he goes in another direction from there. It does more that give us something fun or interesting to look at—it makes the characters actual people instead of monolithic puppets who just talk.

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DabigRG
42 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I think it’s important to differentiate between a role and a character’s relationship to each other, as these are separate small parts in an overall story being told.

A role would be a matter of why that character is even their in the story to begin with—general things like the protagonist and antagonist, but also supporting roles and general narrative roles. The point here is that they have to have a tying reason for being there, and in more ways than just being a friend, enemy, love interest, etc. More than that, they should add to the theme, whether directly or indirectly.

A relationship would tie into how that character is connected to another and how that would respond to the others actions. You know this as Sonic vs Eggman, their relationship as enemies to each other, which ties into one being the protagonist and the other the antagonist—that their focus is the reason their story is the one being told here, just like how it would be if we switched focus and made it Shadow vs Black Doom, Sonic vs Shadow, Shadow vs Knuckles. The more you add, then the other becomes the deuteragonist, tritagonist, etc. but that is the Role/Relationship connection in a nutshell.


This isn’t strictly protagonist/antagonist centered tho, because there is the question of the theme that blends these together beyond “hero beats up bad guy” which is where the importance part comes in. For example, Amy in SA2 is mainly just a love interest, but she helps Sonic break out of prison which aids in him and Tails saving the world, and turning Shadow to the side of good. But that last part is more impactful for the theme of the game: Revenge—she turns Shadow away from it and he goes in another direction from there. It does more that give us something fun or interesting to look at—it makes the characters actual people instead of monolithic puppets who just talk.

...Is that not what what I added...? 🤔

Plus again, that's another example of the character's personality & skills influencing things outside of their immediate role, ala Knuckles threatening Storm/Eggman or reading murals having nothing to do with his rivalry with Sonic.

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If that's the case, then like I said, it depends on the story being told. In a basic Sonic vs. Eggman conflict, you can have as many supporting characters as you can have, because that's a story that's broad enough to where specific roles aren't really needed. 

Like, we can expect Tails due to his role as the sidekick, and his tech genius can help as well given Sonic isn't mechanically inclined. We don't really need to go deep into Tails' motivations and goals, because his primary personality trait is supporting Sonic. It all ties together.

Amy similarly falls into this category, given her infatuation with Sonic and willingness to get involved with him. Even if her role as "love interest" will never amount to much, her personality traits allow her get involved without too much problems.

But when it comes to characters like Knuckles and Shadow, things are different. They're more explicitly rivals to Sonic; Knuckles is generally established as being more invested in doing his job than joining Sonic and Shadow is too standoffish and aloof to work with Sonic unless he's forced to and generally works on his own or with his own group.

 

That's not to say that you can't ever have Knuckles and Shadow ever work with Sonic as supporting characters, but their clashing personalities make that far more difficult than with Tails and Amy, who are much more cooperative.

And that's not even getting into the rest of the supporting cast who aren't really close to Sonic at all, or if they are, they live in a whole ass dimension away.

 

I don't think that's a problem though, it only becomes a problem when the cast are forced in without consideration for who they are and what their roles are. Tails, Amy, Knuckles and Shadow aren't Sonic's only foils, Blaze and Silver exists too.

But not every character needs to be a foil to or have a close relationship to Sonic in order to have a functional role. Some characters work better exactly because they're disconnected. Big and thr Chaotix are entire functional despite not being all that involved in the Sonic vs. Eggman conflict.

 

 

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

...Is that not what what I added...? 🤔

Was wanting to make things a bit more clear and give another example, because there is strong tendency to confuse things.

 

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Splash the Otter
23 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

No, I perfectly get what you’re doing, ElectroKyurem. That’s why I made a tangent onto something completely different to drown it out over the past few pages and why people are instead having opinions on characterization and roles. ;)
 

(By the way, did anyone else actually believe me over replacing Knuckles with Rouge or did you catch on to the joke?)

So you're trying to silence me? That's low, man.

Also I didn't catch onto the "joke", probably because it wasn't funny.

23 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Or, here’s a revolutionary thought: maybe you could actually try and put more effort and creativity in using those plot devices to make Knuckles appear more instead of getting rid of them because you’re sick of people bringing them up when he appears with little justification (or trying to bait them with something you know from the start is silly—you’re not as slick as you think after having done this with random spites toward the Freedom Fighters multiple times).

Which, funny enough, would kill all birds with one stone: you can make Knuckles more involved, he wouldn’t be seen as abandoning said plot devices, it keeps everything about Knuckles character intact that people have been complaining about, and could even open more doors to explore about the character and actually develop him rather than doing it for shallow appearances for the sake of fanservice. Hell, as a bonus, it’ll even give him more freedom too as a result of this. In fact, they’ve been doing this in the Archie and later IDW Sonic comics, and as a result Knuckles is seen as a much better character in those places than he has been in the games by comparison.

I don't want Knuckles' only motivations to be a couple of plot devices because to me it makes him less of a character. The problem is that when his motivation doesn't involve one or both of the two, people complain that he's abandoning his obligations. So I thought if I removed those obligations, he could be free to do what he wanted and people wouldn't be able to complain.

I mean look at Sonic Boom. I don't agree with most of its decisions, but I do like how it handled Knuckles. The writers decided to not include the Master Emerald and wouldn't you know it, Sonic Boom has probably the happiest version of Knuckles in any official work. I just thought main series Knuckles deserved to be happy too. Obviously Sega can't retcon the Master Emerald out of existence because it would ruin the plot of at least two games, but they can do the next best thing which is finding an alternative to Knuckles guarding it for the rest of his life.

But hey, fuck me for wanting Knuckles to experience actual freedom for once, am I right?

23 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Either that or, if we’re still going to actually push this, we can genuinely just replace Rouge with Knuckles and let Rad Red mind his own business in peace on his island without anyone bothering him. Or bring Shade the Echidna back, but eh.

Either way, try it some times—it actually keeps old concepts fresh and entertaining when you use them in new ways in a story. Some food for thought.

At any rate, I’m done having fun humoring you. B)

 

Well I'm done enabling you!

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
3 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

So you're trying to silence me? That's low, man.

No, just making sure people are aware of what’s really being done with this old trick you’re trying to pull so they don’t fall for it. And they seemed to have caught on rather well.

3 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

Also I didn't catch onto the "joke", probably because it wasn't funny.

It wasn’t supposed to be funny—the joke is you taking what I said about Rouge replacing Knuckles seriously by not catching on to it.

Quote

I don't want Knuckles' only motivations to be a couple of plot devices because to me it makes him less of a character. 
 

If you actually knew (or genuinely cared about, for that matter) what makes a character you would have listen to what I just spelled out to you in that post you quoted that would do everything you just said you wanted for him without sacrificing anything, instead of instigating this same old tirade out of spite of people bringing up said plot devices associated with him.

That or actually put effort into studying characterization.

Here’s a good start if you need help with that. It’ll tell you everything you need to know as it did for me when I did my own studies on the subject.

Quote

 

Well I'm done enabling you!

Have a nice day then! B)

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BadBehavior

Can't believe we had a returning characters discussion without mentioning Classic Sonic.

Everything about him in Forces is terrible and I hate every nanosecond he's on screen. Is that opinion popular?

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SonicBoom
On 7/6/2021 at 9:24 AM, BadBehavior said:

Can't believe we had a returning characters discussion without mentioning Classic Sonic.

Everything about him in Forces is terrible and I hate every nanosecond he's on screen. Is that opinion popular?

Conversely, I enjoyed his levels more than anything else in Forces, and so I was really disappointed that he was barely even in it. I *know* that one's unpopular! :V But come on, Modern and the avatar both have so many more levels and bosses and cutscenes, and Classic gets... what, six stages? And it looks like he's drawing the short straw AGAIN in all the upcoming games. Hopefully Origins will knock it out of the park, but come ON, are you guys really just going to let the goodwill Mania brought die on the vine like this?

 

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Tomboyish Mermaid

I will get a lot of flak after this, but I'm saying it: A very unpopular opinion of my: I do not think that Shadow is that great of a character. He was fine in SA2, but after that the character felt from grace. He was okay in Heroes and Sonic 6, but after that era he became nothing but a bully for Sonic. Especially in the Boom era he was almost intolerable for me. 

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Wraith

He was put in a weird spot when they decided to simplify the stories. His distinguishing factor from other rival characters is emotional baggage that wouldn't really fit in any of the newer sonic content. Some of it, like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06, is of questionable canonical status to begin with. Other stuff, like Sonic Adventure 2, is locked in but it's doubtful the dead little girl backstory is ever going to come up again even if these games started making past entries required reading.

 

Because of all this ambiguity it's hard to get a read on where his head's at or why he does anything that he does. He has a creed to protect humanity which is good, but then it feels like his attitude toward others should have softened a bit after that realization. Instead, outside of archie they doubled down on his need to prove his own strength and superiority which doesn't really make sense as a follow-through. It's often even counterproductive to his goal in IDW or the new short story's case.

 It's not even really clear what he has against Sonic at this point. Almost none of Shadow's arcs/lore post SA2 involve Sonic in any way, so it's not a personal thing. I guess he finds Sonic's personality annoying, but their way of actually doing heroics isn't so different that it'd be impossible to reconcile, so what's the problem? They didn't create a rivalry with any personal emotions behind it, and Shadow is basically a free agent who goes around fighting eggman now it can't be ideological since Sonic basically does the same thing. I guess there's the idea that Sonic doesn't take things as seriously as Shadow would like, but that's something that rarely actually comes up. They usually fight for either no real reason or a really contrived one. 

Hell, in Sonic Adventure 2/Sonic Heroes, Shadow is happy to take time to gloat ir goad a challenge out of Sonic. It's only Sonic X that started playing up the stoic stuff. 

I could go on but Tldr: hes not a very consistent character. I still think he's sick but other people don't and that's fine. 

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FlameStream

It's unfortunate that the character usage discussion was done in such generic topic. It could really use to be indexed properly in its own topic.

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We literally have a million of those topics, don't see what making more will add.

 

Shadow's always been and will be a controversial character. He's too thematically different from every other character, who are generally much more simple and easy to understand. Depending on how you feel, its either what makes him interesting or makes him intolerable. There's never really been an in between with him, you either like him or you don't.

His modern characterization is likely Sega's attempts at homogenizing the character to be in line with the simpler direction they've adopted recently, but without any consideration for how this would clash with his established story arc, resulting in a very inconsistent take of the character that isn't really compatible with what he was established as before.

Whether people like it or not though, he's still one of the franchise's most marketable characters and Sega will leverage that no matter what anyone thinks. Especially in this time when they're trying to get much more broad appeal. So I'll just cherish the incarnations of him I like and just keep it moving from the ones I don't.

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Tomboyish Mermaid

If they want to make him a simpler character, that technically also means that his entire backstory with Maria isn't canon anymore. Humans do not seem to exist in the current Modern/Meta/whatever timeline, so this dramatic experience never happened. Which is sad, because Maria's death was the entire reason why he turned against humanity. 

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The recent short story establishes that it DID happen, Sega just aren't gonna elaborate on it any further than in an extremely broad strokes manner. The current writing merely alludes and implies that something happened to Shadow in the past, but that's where it ends.

And since his rivalry with Sonic is partially what he's remembered for, that's what they have chosen to focus on. But as mentioned, there's no real personal motivation in their rivalry as it is now. Its something that's just taken for granted. I guess it's because they're so alike? But that's not detailed enough to revolve an entire rivalry around.

I suppose its hard to write a legitimate rivalry for them, and Sega just don't care enough to do that and would rather rely on iconography and implications rather than anything substantial and concrete.

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My unpopular opinion.

I never want to see checkerboard soil ever again. In fact, I've grown so sick of the checkerboard iconography altogether and I was one of the people who wanted to see it return about a decade ago.

 

I miss when Sonic's world was more varied and had a mix of techno fantasy and some realism sprinkled in. Now it's all just barftastic tacky geometric checkerboard-land ALL. THE. TIME.

I want more varied environments and not just "lol so wacky and surreal".

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Tomboyish Mermaid

Yeah, Green Hill also doesn't feel special anymore because the reused it so many times. The same goes for Chemcial Plant as well. Here I have another unpopular opinion: I don't think The Deadly Six aren't that bad as characters. But I have to agree that they need a backstory and reasons for their motivation. 

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DabigRG
13 hours ago, Wraith said:

He was put in a weird spot when they decided to simplify the stories. His distinguishing factor from other rival characters is emotional baggage that wouldn't really fit in any of the newer sonic content. Some of it, like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06, is of questionable canonical status to begin with. Other stuff, like Sonic Adventure 2, is locked in but it's doubtful the dead little girl backstory is ever going to come up again even if these games started making past entries required reading.

 

Because of all this ambiguity it's hard to get a read on where his head's at or why he does anything that he does. He has a creed to protect humanity which is good, but then it feels like his attitude toward others should have softened a bit after that realization. Instead, outside of archie they doubled down on his need to prove his own strength and superiority which doesn't really make sense as a follow-through. It's often even counterproductive to his goal in IDW or the new short story's case.

 It's not even really clear what he has against Sonic at this point. Almost none of Shadow's arcs/lore post SA2 involve Sonic in any way, so it's not a personal thing. I guess he finds Sonic's personality annoying, but their way of actually doing heroics isn't so different that it'd be impossible to reconcile, so what's the problem? They didn't create a rivalry with any personal emotions behind it, and Shadow is basically a free agent who goes around fighting eggman now it can't be ideological since Sonic basically does the same thing. I guess there's the idea that Sonic doesn't take things as seriously as Shadow would like, but that's something that rarely actually comes up. They usually fight for either no real reason or a really contrived one. 

Hell, in Sonic Adventure 2/Sonic Heroes, Shadow is happy to take time to gloat ir goad a challenge out of Sonic. It's only Sonic X that started playing up the stoic stuff. 

I could go on but Tldr: hes not a very consistent character. I still think he's sick but other people don't and that's fine. 

 

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The recent short story establishes that it DID happen, Sega just aren't gonna elaborate on it any further than in an extremely broad strokes manner. The current writing merely alludes and implies that something happened to Shadow in the past, but that's where it ends.

And since his rivalry with Sonic is partially what he's remembered for, that's what they have chosen to focus on. But as mentioned, there's no real personal motivation in their rivalry as it is now. Its something that's just taken for granted. I guess it's because they're so alike? But that's not detailed enough to revolve an entire rivalry around.

I suppose its hard to write a legitimate rivalry for them, and Sega just don't care enough to do that and would rather rely on iconography and implications rather than anything substantial and concrete.

Another part of the problem is the lack of any intertwined mystery and another, often viler villain for him to go up against. Again, his heyday almost always had one or both of those things to make the story more complicated and keep him occupied while Sonic does his thing, but they don't really have that anymore since the games have simplified things to having Eggman be the Big Bad in the end.

Ad since he is both the main villain of the series and Sonic's archenemy, well, Brick Wall meets Tank. 

2 hours ago, Tomboyish Mermaid said:

Here I have another unpopular opinion: I don't think The Deadly Six aren't that bad as characters. But I have to agree that they need a backstory and reasons for their motivation. 

Their motivation is apparently getting bloody revenge on Eggman and Sonic, but that creates two different issues, doesn't it? 

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2 hours ago, Slash said:

I miss when Sonic's world was more varied and had a mix of techno fantasy and some realism sprinkled in. Now it's all just barftastic tacky geometric checkerboard-land ALL. THE. TIME.

I want more varied environments and not just "lol so wacky and surreal".

...is Lost World, like, the only game you've played in the past 10 years? And I mean, even it had some more grounded and creative design, like Silent Forest, or the tunnel levels.

But come on, you telling me that stages like Sunset City, Metropolitan Highway, Aquarium Park, or Press Garden aren't varied, creative, and original? I get we're all sick of Green Hill, but don't let your apathy toward it cause you to overlook everything else.

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That's why he doesn't really feel like an equal to Sonic anymore; as opposed to having his own separate storylines, now he's just on and off obstacle for Sonic who occasionally shows up. It's just inherently less interesting than him being his own independent entity. I suppose having a doppelganger who has no ties to the main character is a problem here unlike say, Metal Sonic. 

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