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Tomboyish Mermaid
1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Their motivation is apparently getting bloody revenge on Eggman and Sonic, but that creates two different issues, doesn't it? 

This is their motivation now, but before that they had no real reason to destroy a world. 

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3 hours ago, SonicBoom said:

...is Lost World, like, the only game you've played in the past 10 years? And I mean, even it had some more grounded and creative design, like Silent Forest, or the tunnel levels.

But come on, you telling me that stages like Sunset City, Metropolitan Highway, Aquarium Park, or Press Garden aren't varied, creative, and original? I get we're all sick of Green Hill, but don't let your apathy toward it cause you to overlook everything else.

In all honesty, the last Sonic game I played from beginning to end was Sonic Generations. 

I WAS excited for Lost Worlds when it was first coming out, but the more I look at it now, the more I realize it DOES look like a Mario ripoff. Seriously, the art direction in lost world is ugly. It only got worse afterwards outside of Mania which I still haven't played yet because... Reasons.

Also Sunset City looks like a cheap copy of Rooftop Run and Metropolis Highway looks like a chrome copy of Grand Metropolis. And even then, stages Like them were few and far between.

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Mr. Ion

Some of the earlier posts bring up really good points. You can have any opinion you want but I don't find it fair to discount everything the last 10 years of games had to offer. I agree that the Boost era uses too much nostalgic iconography and tends to have a less interesting art style, but all of this does kind of overshadow a lot of the ideas the boost era had. We have stuff like Planet Wisp and Starlight Carnival, Generations had a lot of its creativity in the modern levels like City Escape, Lost World had the aforementioned Silent Forest and all the other level themes, heck even Forces had a cool propaganda theme with its art and had settings like Sunset City. Granted, a lot of these levels have gone underused and could've had more content to flesh out the setting in their respective games, but I feel like you can't just void all of the ideas in these games under the guise of "Meta Era trash". I mean look at the so-called Dark Age, from 2005 to 2008. A lot of those games were overlooked, and their contributions forgotten, but now so much of the fanbase is appreciating those games. They see potential and good elements in '06 and Riders and Black Knight instead of only focusing on the inconsistent quality or confusing stories, and I think we should also look at the positive contributions of the Boost era rather than hyper-focusing on the negative parts. Yeah, if you don't like the Boost Era that's fine and completely understandable given the state of the franchise, but don't discount everything just because Forces had one too many dash pads.

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DabigRG
4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

That's why he doesn't really feel like an equal to Sonic anymore; as opposed to having his own separate storylines, now he's just on and off obstacle for Sonic who occasionally shows up. It's just inherently less interesting than him being his own independent entity. I suppose having a doppelganger who has no ties to the main character is a problem here unlike say, Metal Sonic. 

Or in the case of TSR, saying he's gonna put a stop to whatever Eggman's up to and then just kinda being around to occasionally say determined stuff while you most likely pick a different character to play as.

Also, Metal is literally one of many Sonic robots created for the near ubiquitous purpose of defeating him--one that got super popular, but still. He has a straightforward purpose that he can always be expected to try

3 hours ago, Tomboyish Mermaid said:

This is their motivation now, but before that they had no real reason to destroy a world. 

Exactly. And even then, they only decided to destroy the world to get back at Eggman--since Zavok eavesdropped on him expressing concern for it earlier-- while making themselves stronger in the process.

Who were the Deadly Six or whatever their called before Eggman showed up and what was their mission statement--that is the question that was never answered.

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Cosmos Rogue

My controversial Sonic opinion: Tails, and especially Knuckles, don't play that well in Sonic 3&K or Mania. Tails' flying is alright once you're good enough to maintain speed with it, but if you're just using it to get past a tricky jump, it sucks. It's sluggish to get off the ground from a stand still, it's so useful that it often trivializes any challenge, and using the move in that way makes the game very start and stop, something that runs contrary to what Sonic games are at their best. Knuckles is much worse however. His climbing ability again feels sluggish to use, but my real problem with his moveset is landing after a glide. Whether you drop to the ground or slide to a stop, it always feels like I am having to wait on Knuckles to complete some animation before I can get back to playing the game.

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35 minutes ago, Cosmos Rogue said:

Whether you drop to the ground or slide to a stop, it always feels like I am having to wait on Knuckles to complete some animation before I can get back to playing the game.

This is one of the few situations where the physics and mechanics in S3&K are pretty unambiguously superior to the Retro Engine. Late in the development of Sonic & Knuckles, Knuckles was given the ability to spin dash out of a post-glide slide, or from his crouching position after landing. You *don't* have to wait for him to get back up.

Unfortunately, this ability was never backported to Knuckles in Sonic 2. And because Sonic 2 was so much better-documented, THAT was the Knuckles codebase that Stealth used for his Knuckles in Sonic 1 hack in 2005, and the one that got carried forward a decade or so later into the mobile ports, and eventually, Mania.

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Mr. Ion

But I feel like with Knuckles coming out of a glide it would be better if he could maintain momentum, or at least be able to roll out of a glide. The climbing doesn't really bother me that much though. 

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Miles Storzillo

I’m not so sure whether this is popular or unpopular, but I don’t mind the Tails save mechanic in Colors Ultimate.  Of course, I have 0 desire to actually get the game unless they do 1 of 2 things, 1 of which is very unlikely.  Also, while I’m on the topic of Colors Ultimate, I hope to Solaris this franchise is finally done with lives.  When Rise of Lyric ditched that I was thinking it would just be the exception instead of the rule being a spin-off and all like with Secret Rings and Black Knight until I saw Forces.  And with Colors Ultimate ditching it I have a feeling it’s become the rule now.

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  • 2 months later...

Unpopular opinion:

Carnival Night Zone's official soundtrack is terrible, the beta/collection version is easily better. 

I remember reading about how the reason MJ wanted to not be credited with Sonic 3's music (and other games) was because he didn't like the sound quality for the console renditions of his music. IDK what to say about that past Sonic 3, but in the case of Carnival Night I really can't blame MJ for wanting nothing to do with it. 

His influence is also shown in Ice Cap and Launch Base, right? Those sound fine (I still prefer the PC/collection version) but Sega really did an awful job with Carnival Night. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
E-122-Psi
On 7/11/2021 at 11:39 PM, Cosmos Rogue said:

My controversial Sonic opinion: Tails, and especially Knuckles, don't play that well in Sonic 3&K or Mania. Tails' flying is alright once you're good enough to maintain speed with it, but if you're just using it to get past a tricky jump, it sucks. It's sluggish to get off the ground from a stand still, it's so useful that it often trivializes any challenge, and using the move in that way makes the game very start and stop, something that runs contrary to what Sonic games are at their best. Knuckles is much worse however. His climbing ability again feels sluggish to use, but my real problem with his moveset is landing after a glide. Whether you drop to the ground or slide to a stop, it always feels like I am having to wait on Knuckles to complete some animation before I can get back to playing the game.

I guess that at least applies to the point of Sonic being faster though. That while Tails and Knuckles' base speed is the same, their added move-sets often cut down their speed and momentum, while Sonic's unique moves, while not as versatile, are nearly always to maintain it. I'd argue that's one of the key bits of balance so Tails and Knuckles aren't just 'better Sonic' since they can often use their moves to find more short cuts and goodies, but at the cost of needing to grind to a halt.

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Cosmos Rogue

@E-122-Psi That's an interesting way to look at it, one I had not considered. But if that is how Sonic Team intended to balance giving Tails and Knuckles the same speed as Sonic and their own special movement abilities, well, they forgot that it's most important for the new moves to actually be fun to use.

Hey, here's a downright sacrilegious opinion: if Sega ever gets off their asses and gives us the Mania follow up we want, it's okay if the physics aren't 1:1 with the classics. Flying, gliding, and climbing all kind of suck because classic Sonic physics weren't designed with those moves in mind, and if it takes rethinking how "classic Sonic" works to solve a quarter of century old problem, I'm willing to give it a shot and see what happens.

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maybe the physics don't need to change. maybe tails and knuckles are what needs to change.

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25 minutes ago, Wraith said:

maybe the physics don't need to change. maybe tails and knuckles are what needs to change.

 

No seriously, I'd like some elaboration. 

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BadBehavior

If Mania is the subject of our takes, heres my thermonuclear unpopular one that's gonna blow up my notifications

Mania has ruined the fandom.

It feels like before, there wasn't too much animosity, people complained but they bought and played the games that came out anyway.

Mania comes out, is shamelessly nostalgia pandering (and also a good game) and suddenly classic fans are over the moon ecstatic. So when Adventure fans go "hey that was cool, can we have something like that?", Sega responds with unloading Forces into their recently changed diaper before going into hibernation for the next 4 years. So that's one branch of the fandom pissed off.

Classic fans, previously satisfied by Mania, are now getting pissed off by Sega refusing to make a Mania followup aside from rereleasing the classic games so much that Resident Evil 4 would tell them to give it a rest, and Modern fans are ignoring that little civil war and they're pissed off cos Forces sucked (aside from the few kids who are waiting 10 years to eventually come out and say it was an underrated gem brimming with ambition and passion)

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Cosmos Rogue

Oh, the fandom was ruined long before Mania. Blame the games drifting further and further from what they once were while simultaneously declining in quality. Sonic 4 and Generations are the games that should be singled out for clarifying just how far off course the series has gotten.

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46 minutes ago, BadBehavior said:

If Mania is the subject of our takes, heres my thermonuclear unpopular one that's gonna blow up my notifications

Mania has ruined the fandom.

It feels like before, there wasn't too much animosity, people complained but they bought and played the games that came out anyway.

Mania comes out, is shamelessly nostalgia pandering (and also a good game) and suddenly classic fans are over the moon ecstatic. So when Adventure fans go "hey that was cool, can we have something like that?", Sega responds with unloading Forces into their recently changed diaper before going into hibernation for the next 4 years. So that's one branch of the fandom pissed off.

Classic fans, previously satisfied by Mania, are now getting pissed off by Sega refusing to make a Mania followup aside from rereleasing the classic games so much that Resident Evil 4 would tell them to give it a rest, and Modern fans are ignoring that little civil war and they're pissed off cos Forces sucked (aside from the few kids who are waiting 10 years to eventually come out and say it was an underrated gem brimming with ambition and passion)

This has been happening long before Mania was ever a thought my guy. 

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Alright, this might be controversial:

My favorite character to play as in SA1 is E-102. His gameplay has basically nothing to do with the Sonic ethos for the most part, and if Big wasn't a thing he'd stick out like a sore thumb, but the concept of him is great. The idea of a third-person shooter with an emphasis on speed, where the clock is constantly ticking down and you have to chain kills to keep adding time has this intense, almost arcadey vibe to it and I'd love to see a full game do this (if it hasn't been done already).

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@Gloved Animal The arcadey nature of Gamma's gameplay actually is consistent with core Sonic design philosophy. The idea that you are supposed to play these games over and over, and get iteratively better at them is one of the very few things that has been consistent in the series since the classic games, through the Adventure era, and into the modern day. It's why ranks were added in Adventure 2.

As for Gamma's gameplay specifically, I think it's conceptually sound, but just so, so shallow in practice. I think there's real potential for a game that uses Gamma as a source of inspiration to have success in the indie space.

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3 minutes ago, Cosmos Rogue said:

@Gloved Animal

As for Gamma's gameplay specifically, I think it's conceptually sound, but just so, so shallow in practice. I think there's real potential for a game that uses Gamma as a source of inspiration to have success in the indie space.

Yeah, I won't argue that "wiggle the joystick until you target everything" is a deep gameplay mechanic, but I think when time gets lower it starts to get more frantic and it kind of works. The level on the train is behind only Sonic's Sky Deck as my favorite level in the game. 

I think what would make it work better is if if had a dual-stick control system (left stick moves E-102, right stick aims laser) and if you had to conserve the laser (meaning you have to be more deliberate than just swinging it in a circle).

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