Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

There's also such thing as cameos too; there's nothing wrong with either Tails or Amy's roles in Unleashed because they are ultimately unimportant to the plot, they do their job as minor supporting characters.

[Tara]

There's also such thing as cameos too; there's nothing wrong with either Tails or Amy's roles in Unleashed because they are ultimately unimportant to the plot, they do their job as minor supporting characters.

Except the concept of cameos imply that they're on and then off and usually they don't interact with the plot in a significant way.  In Unleashed, the characters are clearly written with the intent of being integral, but they're not.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Akito

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with characters being support, unimportant, or playing cameos. But there's a variety of difference between all three terms here that people should be aware of.

[Kuzu]

Actually, it is. Otherwise there's no point in calling them "support" in the first place. They may not be important, but they're still playing a role in the narrative in supporting it and the lead characters.

 

Definition of Supporting character:

 

"A  character that is not focused on by the primary storyline"

 

 

Does anything here say they have to actually support?

Except the concept of cameos imply that they're on and then off and usually they don't interact with the plot in a significant way.  In Unleashed, the characters are clearly written with the intent of being integral, but they're not.

 

What about Tails & Amy are integral to Unleashed's story? You can argue Amy I guess given that one scene with her, but Tails doesn't add much to the main plot anyway. I don't think the writers had any purpose of him  being there other than to find a way for Sonic to get around.

[Nepenthe]

No, I'm citing a literal definition of "support character." Unleashed's NPCs, Tails, and Amy for example are all support characters by way of simply not being the main focus of the storyline, not because all of them help Sonic in some fashion. But that's pedantry to the bigger points anyway, those being 1.) Blaming characters for writing faults is stupid, and 2.) Like Akito suggested, characters who exist in a story should at least be written well regardless of the size of their role.

[Tara]

What about Tails & Amy are integral to Unleashed's story? You can argue Amy I guess given that one scene with her, but Tails doesn't add much to the main plot anyway. I don't think the writers had any purpose of him  being there other than to find a way for Sonic to get around.

Actually just that.  Tails chauffering Sonic around and actively commenting on the adventure implies that he has a significant role in the story.  If, say, he only took Sonic one place and then never appeared again or was never mentioned in the story, then his appearance would be a cameo.  But the fact that he actually gets involved in the plot, verbally or physically, shows that he was meant to be a character that actually did something, but ultimately doesn't.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Akito

[Kuzu]

Actually just that.  Tails chauffering Sonic around and actively commenting on the adventure implies that he has a significant role in the story.  If, say, he only took Sonic one place and then never appeared again or was never mentioned in the story, then his appearance would be a cameo.  But the fact that he actually gets involved in the plot, verbally or physically, shows that he was meant to be a character that actually did something, but ultimately doesn't.

 

Well how would you have Tails play a significant role if his role is ultimately that of a supporting one? Its not like Tails didn't do anything just that his role is not the primary focus of the game, and therefore he doesn't need anymore elaboration than what he was, a chauffeur.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, I'm citing a literal definition of "support character." Unleashed's NPCs, Tails, and Amy for example are all support characters by way of simply not being the main focus of the storyline, not because all of them help Sonic in some fashion. But that's pedantry to the bigger points anyway, those being 1.) Blaming characters for writing faults is stupid, and 2.) Like Akito suggested, characters who exist in a story should at least be written well regardless of the size of their role.

It shouldn't really matter which definition to use because they're both right since ultimately all you need is a protagonist, antagonist, and conflict. But either way, supports do have a role in the narrative, and not their for the intended purpose to ignore.

I think we call all agree on the bigger points.

Definition of Supporting character:

"A character that is not focused on by the primary storyline"

Does anything here say they have to actually support?

Yeah: it's name.

That and the Wikipedia definition isn't the only one out there to use in what defines a support character.

Edited August 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

Yeah: it's name.

That and the Wikipedia definition isn't the only one out there to use in what defines a support character.

 

That's the literal definition, and Nepenthe pointed it out too; Supporting characters are characters who are not focused on by the primary storyline. Nobody said they couldn't play a larger role, just that they aren't required too because they're secondary at best.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's the literal definition, and Nepenthe pointed it out too; Supporting characters are characters who are not focused on by the primary storyline. Nobody said they couldn't play a larger role, just that they aren't required too because they're secondary at best.

Except It's not the only literal definition out there, so if you want to turn this into a argument of dictionary terms we won't be going anywhere fast. Nevermind that the whole point of what I blatantly said was not about how large a role they should play, but that they play a role period; essentially the same thing you're repeating back to me that I've told you several times by now.

Edited August 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Tara]

Well how would you have Tails play a significant role if his role is ultimately that of a supporting one? Its not like Tails didn't do anything just that his role is not the primary focus of the game, and therefore he doesn't need anymore elaboration than what he was, a chauffeur.

Probably give him some more frontline action.  He doesn't have to do anything effectual, but as is, it just seems like all he does is give exposition.  I think part of taking someone from point A to point B would be to actually, I don't know, go there with the person.  Like, say, he was taking Sonic somewhere when suddenly there was an aerial assault or something?  It would put a lot more weight on his role as chauffeur as opposed to having him just be one.

[Kuzu]

Except It's not the only literal definition out there, so if you want to turn this into a argument of dictionary terms we won't be going anywhere fast. Nevermind that the whole point of what I blatantly said was not about how large a role they should play, but that they play a role period; essentially the same thing you're repeating back to me that I've told you several times by now.

 

And nobody here is arguing that they should play a role, Tails & Amy played their roles as supporting characters so I'm not seeing your problem other than that you wanted them to play larger roles than they did, and that's fine. I'm just saying that it ultimately wouldn't matter either way because their roles as supporting characters make them secondary to the plot.

 

Probably give him some more frontline action.  He doesn't have to do anything effectual, but as is, it just seems like all he does is give exposition.  I think part of taking someone from point A to point B would be to actually, I don't know, go there with the person.  Like, say, he was taking Sonic somewhere when suddenly there was an aerial assault or something?  It would put a lot more weight on his role as chauffeur as opposed to having him just be one.

 

Well exposition is a role is it not? Not saying its a good one, but its still a role nonetheless. I wouldn't mind Tails playing a bigger role, but at the end of the day the plot could have worked either way without it.

[Tara]

And nobody here is arguing that they should play a role, Tails & Amy played their roles as supporting characters so I'm not seeing your problem other than that you wanted them to play larger roles than they did, and that's fine. I'm just saying that it ultimately wouldn't matter either way because their roles as supporting characters make them secondary to the plot.

 

 

Well exposition is a role is it not? Not saying its a good one, but its still a role nonetheless. I wouldn't mind Tails playing a bigger role, but at the end of the day the plot could have worked either way without it.

I suppose.  I think the main thing is that Tails is arguably perhaps the second most important character in the series, rivaled only to Sonic.  He's not necessary for every game, but having him be there for a good chunk of the game without actually doing much has the unintended side effect of leaving a huge empty feeling in the plot.  It would be like Sonic just sitting in a lawnchair and constantly telling Shadow that the Black Arms are bad in ShTH.  He'd technically still be playing a role that wouldn't have any less of an impact than what we were given, but the fact that an essential character to the games is there but may as well not be sort of leaves a feeling of emptiness in the narrative.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Azure, I want you to go back to the previous page and find where I said I wanted Amy and Tails to play a larger role, because it's ridiculous that you're going this far to subvert everything i've actually said and claim something that was never said.

[Kuzu]

I suppose.  I think the main thing is that Tails is arguably perhaps the second most important character in the series, rivaled only to Sonic.  He's not necessary for every game, but having him be there for a good chunk of the game without actually doing much has the unintended side effect of leaving a huge empty feeling in the plot.  It would be like Sonic just sitting in a lawnchair and constantly telling Shadow that the Black Arms are bad in ShTH.  He'd technically still be playing a role that wouldn't have any less of an impact than what we were given, but the fact that an essential character to the games is there but may as well not be sort of leaves a feeling of emptiness in the narrative.

 

See, this is how characters like Knuckles & Shadow became artifact characters, because of fans expecting their presence regardless if it made sense. I understand Tails is an important and long standing character, but he doesn't have to be integral in someway in every plot that centers around Sonic. A large part of Tails` character may revolve around Sonic, but not everything about him has to.

 

Sonic Unleashed focuses on Sonic dealing with his Werehog form, and Chip's lost memories, Tails doesn't really fit into of that without shoehorning because he never was meant to have a large role to begin with. Its ok if he's not important for a couple of games, especially since, as you said, people are seasoned to expect him. If he's not important in one game, he's probably going to be important in the next, let another character have that special bond with Sonic for a change.

 

Azure, I want you to go back to the previous page and find where I said I wanted Amy and Tails to play a larger role, because it's ridiculous that you're going this far to subvert everything i've actually said and claim something that was never said.

 

 

Maybe. Depends on what you give the characters to contribute as well as their purpose for being around. And with Unleashed having such a global crisis going on with the world split apart and Eggman and Dark Gaia's minions running loose, that alone is enough for the whole cast to contribute as well as having stronger world building since a world tour was also part of the game's theme.

So while Tails wasn't supposed to be in a leading role, he could have certainly done more given all that went on. Unleashed was by no means bad in storytelling, but as decent as it may have been there were a lot of missed opportunities to it.

 

 

Riiiiight there. IS that not you wanting Tails to play a larger role in Unleashed than he did?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

Riiiiight there. IS that not you wanting Tails to play a larger role in Unleashed than he did?

Nope. It means exactly what it says: "he could have done more given all that went on", not "I want Tails to play a larger role" that you're trying to misconstrue it as. Now I would like for him to have a larger role, but that isn't what I've been saying this whole time.

 

And note that all of it was answering your question which was, and I quote:

I mean would he have contributed anymore if he was in more scenes?

To which my entire response from the get go was "maybe".

Edited August 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Tara]

See, this is how characters like Knuckles & Shadow became artifact characters, because of fans expecting their presence regardless if it made sense. I understand Tails is an important and long standing character, but he doesn't have to be integral in someway in every plot that centers around Sonic. A large part of Tails` character may revolve around Sonic, but not everything about him has to.

 

Sonic Unleashed focuses on Sonic dealing with his Werehog form, and Chip's lost memories, Tails doesn't really fit into of that without shoehorning because he never was meant to have a large role to begin with. Its ok if he's not important for a couple of games, especially since, as you said, people are seasoned to expect him. If he's not important in one game, he's probably going to be important in the next, let another character have that special bond with Sonic for a change.

I suppose you missed my long-winded rant about how much I'm okay with Chip being the "special friend" in this game?  This isn't about Chip stealing the limelight from Tails, it's about the fact that Tails is just there.

 

Also, I was actually saying that his presence there is what gives the empty feeling.  We're all expecting him to do something, but he doesn't, aside from just fill space and give exposition.  True, not every part of his character revolves around Sonic, which is definitely a good thing, but the fact is that he's interacting with the plot in an attempt to do something that will ultimately aid in Sonic's efforts.  He's not just filling the role of a side character, there was a clear intent for him to be important to the plot.

 

Now, the whole exposition bringer occupation would not be such a bad thing if said exposition was delivered properly, but as is, it's like, you do some things, go back to Pickles' lab and Tails will tell you what the problem is and ask you politely to do something about it.  Maybe if they had more scenes where you could see how they discovered the information that they obtain, or give him some interesting dialogue to say or some sort of emotion then he would have still been reasonably sidelined, while also serving the same importance.  Tails literally feels like he was written as an after thought in this, and though that's not a particularly horrendous problem to an otherwise good plotline, it is still a problem that's plagued the series since ShTH.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Akito

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't know if it's fair to say that it was a problem since ShTH. Like Unleashed, ShTH had a global crisis going on that needed all hands available to stop. But whereas ShTH used every character bar a few, Unleashed simply let Sonic take care of most of the scenic problems on his own.

 

Unless I'm missing something here...

Edited August 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Tara]

I don't know if it's fair to say that it was a problem since ShTH. Like Unleashed, ShTH had a global crisis going on that needed all hands available to stop. But whereas ShTH used every character bar a few, Unleashed simply let Sonic take care of most of the scenic problems on his own.

 

Unless I'm missing something here...

Well, since the focus was on Shadow, no one else's motivations or endeavors had any impact on the story in the slightest, so their presence in the game is really unnecessary.  I'll give you that they at least looked to be doing something important, though.

 

But then, I actually think ShTH could have been improved tenfold without the other characters in general.  But that's a different discussion.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Akito

[Kuzu]

Nope. It means exactly what it says: "he could have done more given all that went on", not "I want Tails to play a larger role" that you're trying to misconstrue it as. Now I would like for him to have a larger role, but that isn't what I've been saying this whole time.

 

And note that all of it was answering your question which was, and I quote:

To which my entire response from the get go was "maybe".

 

How are those two statements mutually exclusive? In order for Tails "to do more" he would need to be given a larger role would he not?

 

I suppose you missed my long-winded rant about how much I'm okay with Chip being the "special friend" in this game?  This isn't about Chip stealing the limelight from Tails, it's about the fact that Tails is just there.

 

Also, I was actually saying that his presence there is what gives the empty feeling.  We're all expecting him to do something, but he doesn't, aside from just fill space and give exposition.  True, not every part of his character revolves around Sonic, which is definitely a good thing, but the fact is that he's interacting with the plot in an attempt to do something that will ultimately aid in Sonic's efforts.  He's not just filling the role of a side character, there was a clear intent for him to be important to the plot.

 

Now, the whole exposition bringer occupation would not be such a bad thing if said exposition was delivered properly, but as is, it's like, you do some things, go back to Pickles' lab and Tails will tell you what the problem is and ask you politely to do something about it.  Maybe if they had more scenes where you could see how they discovered the information that they obtain, or give him some interesting dialogue to say or some sort of emotion then he would have still been reasonably sidelined, while also serving the same importance.  Tails literally feels like he was written as an after thought in this, and though that's not a particularly horrendous problem to an otherwise good plotline, it is still a problem that's plagued the series since ShTH.

 

Alright, that's fair. Perhaps Tails could have done more given his presence, but I still feel it ultimately doesn't matter in the end because the plot would play out exactly the same regardless even if he did. The series does have a problem utilizing side characters from the main ones, but that's more attributed to its video game nature; since Tails isn't a playable character there wasn't really any reason to focus on him period outside of a few token scenes.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

How are those two statements mutually exclusive? In order for Tails "to do more" he would need to be given a larger role would he not?

Maybe because no where in the initial statement does it say he needs to be given more or given a larger role like you're trying to make it out to be a problem I have with it? And that if someone were to ask "could he contribute if he was in more scenes" that whole post answers how he could contribute in more scenes?

 

Because I don't know if you've noticed, but this whole discussion wasn't about what I wanted.

Edited August 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Tara]

Alright, that's fair. Perhaps Tails could have done more given his presence, but I still feel it ultimately doesn't matter in the end because the plot would play out exactly the same regardless even if he did. The series does have a problem utilizing side characters from the main ones, but that's more attributed to its video game nature; since Tails isn't a playable character there wasn't really any reason to focus on him period outside of a few token scenes.

True enough, I suppose.  I'm not expecting a whole movie's worth of detail, since that would result in an inhumane ratio of cutscenes to actual gameplay, but I think a plotline needs to have a good presentation as well as a good setup, so even though it wouldn't have any effect on the plot if he was given the luxuries I listed, it would still make the story feel a lot more alive and flowing.  Tails' scenes weren't presented particularly well, in my opinion, which is a noticable, but not utterly terrible, blemish in what is otherwise a beautifully-crafted story.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Akito

[ShadowsRyder]

My opinion consists of:

1. Sonic X was AMAZING.

2. Amy Rose will NEVER be able to be the girl Sally was and that they should bring Sally back along with all the other Archie Characters.

3. Sonic 06 was also GREAT.

4.As for going against the real timeline I think Sonic Underground was okay but they should have finished it and got the facts in better order. I liked the oracle dude.

[Mr Useful]

My opinion consists of:

1. Sonic X was AMAZING.

2. Amy Rose will NEVER be able to be the girl Sally was and that they should bring Sally back along with all the other Archie Characters.

3. Sonic 06 was also GREAT.

4.As for going against the real timeline I think Sonic Underground was okay but they should have finished it and got the facts in better order. I liked the oracle dude.

I don't mean to criticize your opinions but they literally are the exact opposite of what I believe.

[StaticMania]

"...they should bring Sally back along with all the other Archie Characters."

 

How would they bring them back if they were never part of the video game continuity or were never officially Sega(Sonic team)made characters?