Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Vertekins]

So Archie Eggman then...

 

Archie Eggman has the cunning and mental skill of SA2 Eggman, and the whimsy charm of Eggman from Colors onward. He's a combination of funny and threatening, basically Faux Affably Evil, and its glorious. So yea, Archie Eggman is best Eggman.

 

Nope. Archie Eggman is too evil. The extent of Archie Eggman's atrocities and his attitude towards them is simply irreconcilable with Game Eggman. Game Eggman doesn't take some kind of sick sadistic pleasure out of what he does and his victims are simply means to an end. Archie Eggman does what he does because he can and because he derives enjoyment out of it.

[Kuzu]

Nope. Archie Eggman is too evil. The extent of Archie Eggman's atrocities and his attitude towards them is simply irreconcilable with Game Eggman. Game Eggman doesn't take some kind of sick sadistic pleasure out of what he does and his victims are simply means to an end. Archie Eggman does what he does because he can and because he derives enjoyment out of it.

 

I'm not talking about motives, I'm talking about personality. Like you said, Archie Eggman does what he does because he enjoys inflicting pain, while Game Eggman does it as a means to an end. but in terms of how they act personality wise, Archie-Eggman eases out here.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Dejimon11]

Nope. Archie Eggman is too evil. The extent of Archie Eggman's atrocities and his attitude towards them is simply irreconcilable with Game Eggman. Game Eggman doesn't take some kind of sick sadistic pleasure out of what he does and his victims are simply means to an end. Archie Eggman does what he does because he can and because he derives enjoyment out of it.

Out if curiosity if Sega eggman had the ability to do more than half the things archie eggman did would he do it?

[Vertekins]

Out if curiosity if Sega eggman had the ability to do more than half the things archie eggman did would he do it?

 

Kill people in Egg Grapes so that he can derive fun out of it even though he already has the means to power his operations? Roboticize the entire planet with no regard to his own footsoldiers who would die because they're part-mechanical?

 

Here's the thing; Game Eggman would not do these things simply because mass destruction and murder do not bring satisfaction to him. He is above that. His questionable actions are a means to an end rather than being performed for the sake of sadistic pleasure. Game Eggman has never really come close to crossing the moral event horizon with his actions. I think Archie Eggman crossed it a long time ago. His atrociousness and lust for what he does comes off as majorly unsettling and makes him an even bigger complete monster.

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

Kill people in Egg Grapes so that he can derive fun out of it even though he already has the means to power his operations? Roboticize the entire planet with no regard to his own footsoldiers who would die because they're part-mechanical?

 

Here's the thing; Game Eggman would not do these things simply because mass destruction and murder do not bring satisfaction to him. He is above that. His questionable actions are a means to an end rather than being performed for the sake of sadistic pleasure. Game Eggman has never really come close to crossing the moral event horizon with his actions. I think Archie Eggman crossed it a long time ago.

True. Many great villains cross the moral event horizon eventually though. That's why I equate him to Joker levels of villainy, and love Archie Eggman so much. He's willing to be that downright evil son of a bitch that all of his whimsy and wit doesn't shake the fact that he's a deadly threat.

 

Disturbing? Yes. But it just adds to Eggman's insanity. Neither incarnation of Eggman neither Game nor Archie has convinced my that the man is entirely sane. Game Eggman is a lot more so than Archie, but still. The guy's at least a little bit loopy. That's why I don't really mind him being sadistic. 

Edited September 29, 2013 by Zavok

[Dejimon11]

Hmmm I don't know I think his plans in previous sonic games have shown that he has no morals and has crossed the line.Adventure- unleashing chaos so it can destroy station square(possibly killing everybody in it) so he can build robotnik landSA2- threatening world leaders to surrender or he'll use the eclipse canon to destroy the ear-mobi- the planet06- kidnapping Elise so he can time travel and commit unspeakable actsUnleashed- breaking the planet apart taking energy from a (Demi?)god just to build an amusement park(which he could of done without dark Gia)Rush Adventure- teaming up with Nega to re write reality in his own imageColors- enslaving an entire planet convert them into Nega wisp and use them as fuel for a mind control device Generations- erasing time and space to un due his past defeats and that laugh proves that sonic has beaten so many times to the point where he's lost his mind And from what it looks like in lost world he created a machine that can suck up the life out of anything(too early I know but still)

Edited September 29, 2013 by Dejimon11

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I thought Eggman was using the Egg Grapes to reach the Zone of Silence? =/

 

I'd actually like Archie-Eggman to be emulated in the games. I mean really, Game-Eggman has already committed similar attrocities under his name, so it's not like adding more evil to the character would hurt him as he does it in the most jolly way possible. Motherfucker finally blew up the Earth in Unleashed after threatening to do so in SA2, and given that he was about to nuke Station Square in SA1 I don't think Game-Eggman is above crossing some lines.

 

However, there is a point that Verte is making about him deriving pleasure out of something senseless. The way I see it, Game-Eggman should do everything Archie-Eggman does, but with a sense of purpose and necessity where if there's no point to what he's doing, then he shouldn't do it. A pragmatic Eggman if you will. While Archie-Eggman certain is pragmatic, and there are goals to his actions, there's often a lack of a point to his other actions that are done for evils sake.

 

Yes, I'd like Eggman to be more Joker-esque in his actions, but we've also gotta remember that Joker did most of his crimes for the lulz while Eggman is doing so for conquest, control, ego, and all around gradiose. That's not saying that Game-Eggman shouldn't try to have fun if he were to commit an attrocity, but as I said, if he does so there should be a point to it. If it'll get him closer to his goal of conquest, let him do it; if it wouldn't even get him close to conquering a small island, and it's done just because he's evil, then there's no point in him doing it.

Edited September 29, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

Game Eggman has never really come close to crossing the moral event horizon with his actions.

Didn't he kind of cross it in Colors when he was draining the Wisps of their hypergoons? It isn't on quite the same level as the Egg Grapes, but still...

[Vertekins]

Didn't he kind of cross it in Colors when he was draining the Wisps of their hypergoons? It isn't on quite the same level as the Egg Grapes, but still...

 

But he wasn't exactly killing them. Nor was he deriving sadistic enjoyment out of doing so. Hyper Go-on removal from Wisps merely turns them into Nega Wisps who still apparently have enough of their mind left to willingly help Sonic by turning him into Frenzy/Void form in order to fight against Eggman's plans.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Didn't he kind of cross it in Colors when he was draining the Wisps of their hypergoons? It isn't on quite the same level as the Egg Grapes, but still...

The game Eggman of now (and maybe back then) has generally always committed atrocities in the pursuit of his goal of world domination, but he doesn't actively derive any pleasure from the consequences of his actions. They're just obstacles and tools to him, not the end all be all. Archie...I don't really know, since I do not read Archie, but considering the posts made by other members, I would presume he is far more sadistic.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Wonder-ED (Missile)

[Vertekins]

Posted this on Tumblr earlier. My personal ratings of Sonic game stories by typical Sonic game story standards. Tweaked it a bit since then;

 

Sonic Adventure - 8.4/10 - The stories interestingly intertwine. Dr Eggman is competent, diabolical and malicious whilst exhibiting whimsy as well, getting involved directly in his plan. Characters are portrayed and are given great character development. They’re given motivation to do things and have real reason to go to the places that they do. Overall competently-told with no plotholes.

 

Sonic Adventure 2 - 7.8/10 - Dark themes that are interestingly balanced-out by the themes of hope and the hero side character’s mannerisms and attitudes. Dr Eggman is once again portrayed and utilized marvelously. Real genuine sense of tension at multiple points. Has moments of intrigue and clever foreshadowing. Cool sense of progression. Characters act believably. Touching ending.

 

Sonic Heroes - 5.2/10 - Pretty trite and boring. Not a well developed sense of tension. Eggman factors into the story minimally. Characters are often Flanderized. Inhibitingly basic story outline that doesn't facilitate much variety out of the characters. Metal Sonic was given very little attention.

 

Shadow the Hedgehog (Oh God) - 3.9/10 - (Last story taken into account with a neutral path) Very hard to get a precise read-on due to different paths. If I am judging it’s multiple pathways? Very silly. ‘Choosing Shadow’s alignment’ ultimately comes-off as contrived and meritless when you consider that you can make his pathway wildly inconsistent and that none are canon at the end of the day. The story's tone is very much undermined by how unintentionally funny many of the cutscenes are.

 

SONIC 2006 - 2.7/10 - Awful. Sonic gets shunted sideways and becomes less of a character with actual plot impetus and more of a catalyst for a fundamentally-screwed plot point which can never be taken seriously i.e His death. Copious plotholes and idiocy from every single one the characters. Pretentious feel about the ‘seriousness’ and all of it is utterly undermined by it all getting wiped out of canon. Dumbass main villain. Characters are mostly included for the hell of it rather than incorporated with logic and having them provide plot impetus. Characters are forced quite a lot of the time to go to areas for the obvious sake of making them enter every action stage no matter how illogical.

 

Sonic and the Secret Rings - 9.0/10 - Excellent. Truly. Very high standard of characterization out of Sonic which was a revelation and particularly eye-opening after Shadow the Hedgehog and '06 treated him awfully. Believable character actions bring about highly influential effects on the plot without looking the least bit contrived or forced. Main villain was dimensional, intelligent and diabolical, having a profound level of influence over the two main characters. Well-established sense of tension from the morton’s fork involving Sonic’s curse and Erazor’s prerequisite for it’s removal which would benefit him no matter what Sonic did, making me wonder how the hell Sonic would get out of that one. Not a single plothole. Settings are used well. Competently-told throughout. Incredibly satisfying ending that combines badassery with sweetness very well.

 

Sonic Unleashed - 8.3/10 - Has interesting themes i.e The mutual nature of light and dark and the cyclic nature of all things. Great characterization. Memorable script. Fantastic opening. Characters have motivation and reason to do what they do and go where they go. Cool sense of humor that’s never overblown or obnoxious and is well-spaced. Loses points for missed opportunity regarding Werehog form and it’s effects on Sonic and could’ve done with a bit more Tails and Amy. No plotholes. Overall competently-told.

 

Sonic and the Black Knight - 8.1/10 - Flawless portrayal of Sonic that I’d say is the most triumphant portrayal of the character yet. His attitude to heroism is utilized extremely believably to bring about plot points i.e Saving the kids family compels Nimue to guide Sonic, his refusal to give-in to Merlina’s machinations brings-about his Excalibur form and believably gets him out of a jam. Fantastic script. Well-utilized characters. Misses points due to the blurriness of Camelot’s future and lack of exposition on Merlina’s foretellings somewhat undermining her aims to some degree but she’s still a deeply interesting quasi-villain who is also sympathetic, making the conflict as well as her refreshing.

 

Sonic Colours - 4.9/10 - Takes the fact that it’s supposed to be telling a story nowhere near into consideration as much as it should do. Plot development is shunted-aside to push ‘humor’ to the forefront, said ‘humor’ being never clever nor particularly funny. Sonic is hugely flanderized when this was completely unnecessary. Eggman is delegated to mainly acting behind the scenes and this detracts from his overall villain status. Wisps are never developed making it next to impossible to truly care about their plight which in turn undermines the main plotline. Some instances of plotholes. Cutscenes are incredibly samey and lack variety because many focus on shutting down generators/Dumbass interactions with mute robots. Unsatisfying ending. Commend the Sonic-Tails interactions and Orobt and Cubot.

 

Sonic Generations - 4.4/10 - Plot hardly ever goes anywhere or has ‘bumps’ in it therefore not facilitating interesting character portrayals. Classic Sonic's muteness is the very epitome of pandering to warped interpretations, shooting a hole in his character. What worsens this is the way he’s never incorporated in any creative way in the narrative anyway. Characters are treated like generic cheerleaders and objects to save rather than dimensional characters with big personalities and potential to contribute to the plot. Time Eater is one of the most boring Monster of the week's ever. Eggman hardly factors into the story to any large degree. Story is overall a massive missed opportunity made more pitious by the game being the 20th anniversary. Contains some truly great and memorable lines.

[Tara]

The fact that you apparently put Shadow the Hedgehog above Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations disturbs me.  I mean, I'm not saying they're perfect games by any means or that Shadow is completely non-salvageable, but even the lack of coherency in Colors and Generations worked much better in their favor than Shadow's loosely-knit "plot" that had barely any connection to the gameplay associated with it, let alone told an even slightly interesting tale.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Akito

[Vertekins]

The fact that you apparently put Shadow the Hedgehog above Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations disturbs me.  I mean, I'm not saying they're perfect games by any means or that Shadow is completely non-salvageable, but even the lack of coherency in Colors and Generations worked much better in their favor than Shadow's loosely-knit "plot" that had barely any connection to the gameplay associated with it, let alone told an even slightly interesting tale.

 

Agreed. Going to change that. I initially gave ShTH the 5.0 score going by the last story, not taking into consideration my edits from the original text that now take into consideration the 'meat' of the story and the ridiculous paths.

[Jet Prower]

Back to the Eggman talk you were having, I do think Game Eggman did get kind of class in colors with the way he was treating the wisps. It seemed more like something Archie Eggman was doing. He is trying to destroy entire planets and happily comit species genocide out of pure pleasure of doing so.

 

The Egggrapes from archie are just sick and I hated it the entire time I'm reading it. Sucking the very life out of the furs just to power your machines is just flat out sick. I hated that entire section and was very glad when he lost them all and didn't bother trying to use them ever again. He pretty much killed half the echidna's on the planet in one swoop with those damn grapes and kills so many other innocent people just for the sake of machine power. SICK!

 

Archie Eggman does still have some evil in him of course and does still seem more evil at times than Game Eggman, but colors Eggman did start to get a little closer to Archie Eggman just because off the  actions he was doing that would hurt others just for the sport of it while he is accomplishing what he wanted done.

[DC111]

I think that no matter how much people try to validate Eggman in one direction or the other, there's always going to be a reason why game Eggman isn't as 'bad' as Archie Eggman, and for that, another reason why he is.

 

If you look at it objectively, and if you measure only by the acts they have committed or intended to commit, they really are about the same. You have fully intending to commit genocide on a city in SA; threatening to destroy the planet or at least a sizable chunk of it in SA2 (whether or not he actually would have done it is another story, but the threat was there, and the former point about SA makes me at least wonder if the intent was real); powering his machines with animals, which if you stop and think about it is pretty cruel; and then of course the wisps in Colors.

 

So if you're measuring by deeds alone, they're both pretty damn evil villains whom Sonic and co. have good reason to fear. The difference is in the execution. Archie is blatant and open about Eggman's dark mind and injects extra drama and darkness into just about everything. Game Eggman's evil is more subtle, because Eggman himself only does the evil things he does as a means to an end, and most of his joy in doing this is because he's, well, enjoying it. And take 'enjoying it' at face value, here. He's not specifically enjoying the idea that people are getting hurt like Archie Eggman seems to. Unless it's Sonic lol but they do have the arch-nemesis thing going on here.

 

I would call Archie Eggman flanderized. You have his other qualities, but they're largely overshadowed by the dramatized, forced quality of his evil and sadism. Game Eggman has some evil in him too - he's a villain, so he should - but it's balanced out with humor and a moral code, when he feels like having a moral code anyway, but the point is, he has one. 

 

I wouldn't mind Eggman being portrayed with a little less subtlety as far as his evil deeds (for example, maybe Colors could have given a heavier implication of Eggman's questionable treatment of the wisps - not ripping on it for not doing so, by the way, just using it as an example). But at the same time, no more so than his portrayal in the Adventures. It was believable considering the circumstances and his goals, and didn't come across as forced or grimdark, like Archie Eggman often does, even though Game Eggman did some pretty bad stuff too.

Edited September 30, 2013 by DC111

[Kuzu]

I still say Archie Eggman is a far better villain, if only because he's taken far more seriously as a threat as opposed to Game Eggman.

[Wraith]

I like the idea that Eggman just doesn't paticularly care if people get hurt if it's a means to and end but he wont go out of his way to fuck with people unnecessarily unless those people happen to be Sonic and friends. 

[Nepenthe]

I still say Archie Eggman is a far better villain, if only because he's taken far more seriously as a threat as opposed to Game Eggman.

Well, I would say that's less the fault of Eggman and more an issue with the overall tongue-in-cheek atmosphere of the current crop of games, as there's more games than not where he is actually taken seriously anyway.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Soniman]

Agreed. Going to change that. I initially gave ShTH the 5.0 score going by the last story, not taking into consideration my edits from the original text that now take into consideration the 'meat' of the story and the ridiculous paths.

So how exactly does Heroes' non plot of nonsensical dialogue and characters acting like complete parodies of themselves still manage to beat out Colors??

 

Not to start something, but as a fan of both games, this genuinely confuses me...

[Wraith]

I kinda agree with Soniman. At least Colors got Tails and Eggman right. In Heroes, everyone was kind of a stupid asshole.

[Kuzu]

Well, I would say that's less the fault of Eggman and more an issue with the overall tongue-in-cheek atmosphere of the current crop of games, as there's more games than not where he is actually taken seriously anyway.

 

Well character-wise, his goofy side is emphasized far more than his status as a villain.

[Dejimon11]

I kinda agree with Soniman. At least Colors got Tails and Eggman right. In Heroes, everyone was kind of a stupid asshole.

If you though heroes was bad then you'll hate free riders. Everyone acted worse in that game especially Amy and shadow oh boy

[Vertekins]

So how exactly does Heroes' non plot of nonsensical dialogue and characters acting like complete parodies of themselves still manage to beat out Colors??

Not to start something, but as a fan of both games, this genuinely confuses me...

1 - Much of Heroes' dialogue made sense despite how 'captain obvious' the characters could be. Contrast to, say, Colours' translator jokes that hardly hold any context, which make no sense even for a borked-up translation (Porpoise/Purpose?) and which aren't funny to begin with.

2 - Heroes gets away with slightly more because most character flanderizations don't actually impact the story which I am focusing on regarding judgment. Sonic's exaggerated mannerisms in Colours took prominence above story development and the sense of progression and largely consumed his character, negatively impacting him in my view as well as the story.

Still, Heroes is barely better, that said.

[Kuzu]

1 - Much of Heroes' dialogue made sense despite how 'captain obvious' the characters could be. Contrast to, say, Colours' translator jokes that hardly hold any context, which make no sense even for a borked-up translation (Porpoise/Purpose?) and which aren't funny to begin with.

Still, Heroes is barely better, that said.

 

"Look at all those Eggman's robots"

 

 

Does this sound even remotely grammatically correct to you? While I do like Colors but not afraid to call out its flaws, this is...no. Terrible jokes aside, Colors I can tell isn't just translated dialogue from the Japanese script.

[Dejimon11]

1 - Much of Heroes' dialogue made sense despite how 'captain obvious' the characters could be. Contrast to, say, Colours' translator jokes that hardly hold any context, which make no sense even for a borked-up translation (Porpoise/Purpose?) and which aren't funny to begin with.2 - Heroes gets away with slightly more because most character flanderizations don't actually impact the story which I am focusing on regarding judgment. Sonic's exaggerated mannerisms in Colours took prominence above story development and the sense of progression and largely consumed his character, negatively impacting him in my view as well as the story.Still, Heroes is barely better, that said.

I'm the opposite if this. Heroes came out after SA2 when most fans believe the series was at its peak and then heroes came out and kinda killed its momentum. Colors simple plot came after the likes of shadow and 06(which were trying way to hard to be taken seriously) and unleashed which while a good plot in my eyes a lot of people didn't like it