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Would make perfect sense were it not for two monkey wrenches in that: Eggman's ego and GUN keeping that purge heavily in the dark before Eggman released Shadow. Eggman is evil due to his ego and he wants to spread that by conquering the world.

And with GUN keeping that purge a secret until SA2's last story, it would make absolutely no sense for Eggman to have a start of darkness from it if he never knew about it until that point.

Even considering that, it's still possible for it to have been an influence. Even without knowing the full story, he likely would've known of Maria's death, Gerald's arrest, and his execution. There's a number of ways he could react to/interpret that that could nudge him towards villainy. And it doesn't necessarily have to turn him from a kind-hearted optimist into Dr. Eggman, Evil Villain; he could've already been headed in that direction, but the ARK incident solidified it (or quickened it, or just nudged him a little further).

The chronology of it is a bigger obstacle, in my eyes. Even assuming he could skip a few grades, he would have to be...what? Something like, nearly 70?...to be Pickle's student at the time of the ARK incident. We don't know how old he's supposed to be, but I wouldn't guess that old.

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Even considering that, it's still possible for it to have been an influence. Even without knowing the full story, he likely would've known of Maria's death, Gerald's arrest, and his execution. There's a number of ways he could react to/interpret that that could nudge him towards villainy. And it doesn't necessarily have to turn him from a kind-hearted optimist into Dr. Eggman, Evil Villain; he could've already been headed in that direction, but the ARK incident solidified it (or quickened it, or just nudged him a little further).

The chronology of it is a bigger obstacle, in my eyes. Even assuming he could skip a few grades, he would have to be...what? Something like, nearly 70?...to be Pickle's student at the time of the ARK incident. We don't know how old he's supposed to be, but I wouldn't guess that old.

Well it's possible that he was born a time AFTER the incident, but the incident itself left a tarnish on the Robotnik family name, and thus many years later when he is older, he finds out the full (to his knowledge sans Shadow) details about the coverup. Then again I really cannot remember for the life of me how old Pickles and Eggman are, so maybe I am just talking out of my ass.

Edited by Wonder-ED (Missile)
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Then again I really cannot remember for the life of me how old Pickles and Eggman are, so maybe I am just talking out of my ass.

 

 

Otto says that he and Pickle have known each other for over 80 years. Whilst if Eggman personally knew Gerald, he has to be above 50.

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Otto says that he and Pickle have known each other for over 80 years. Whilst if Eggman personally knew Gerald, he has to be above 50.

So assuming Eggman is about 40-50 years old, just old enough to be able to learn/remember about the incident/be affected by the tarnishing of the Robotnik family name due to said incident, but not old enough to know about Gerald and Maria (and Shadow) personally, and if he were attending Spagonia Uni. around the age of 20 (or earlier if his supergenius tendencies showed early), this would put Pickles' age at around mid 80s to 90 now and about 40-50 around the time of the incident, and roughly 70ish around the time he would have met Eggman.

 

So:

Eggman AI (At incident): -10 (assuming he was born 10 years after the incident) - 1 years.

Eggman AC (At College): 20 - 30

Eggman Present: 40 - 50

 

Pickles AI: 40 - 50

Pickles AC when Eggman shows up: 60 - 70

Pickles Present: 80 -  90.

 

If I did my math right, so yeah the whole Pickles/Eggman Teacher-Student relationship is a stretch, but not impossible.

Edited by Wonder-ED (Missile)
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I do question whether or not Eggman actually knew Maria considering that he expresses no acknowledgment of her when he puts the password into the console when awakening Shadow.

 

However, Eggman must have heard of Maria's fate and her relation to him if he listened to the same diary that inspired him to go looking for Shadow in the first place.

 

I guess it's pretty ambiguous whether or not he actually knew his cousin.

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I do question whether or not Eggman actually knew Maria considering that he expresses no acknowledgment of her when he puts the password into the console when awakening Shadow.

 

However, Eggman must have heard of Maria's fate and her relation to him if he listened to the same diary that inspired him to go looking for Shadow in the first place.

 

I guess it's pretty ambiguous whether or not he actually knew his cousin.

Hence why I say that it is possible that Eggman was born after the incident, or was simply too young at the time to know of his relative.

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Why not? Their age difference is reasonably big enough for it to work. You could probably tie the whole "Purging of the Space Colony Ark" into Eggman's start of darkness and Professor Pickle being one of the first people to witness his descent into evil or something, thus turning a friendship between Teacher and Student sour. Heck, maybe you could add in something about Professor Pickle seeing a lot of the pre-evil Eggman in his newest protegee Tails, and how despite Sonic's quirks and flaws, his influence helped to keep Tails from potentially going down the same path. Yanno, due to Tails' past with bullying.

 

Is the thing about Tails being bullied in the past a canon thing in the video games? I've never known for sure, since I've seen many people try and do fanfics about Sonic and Tails first meetings and most of them involve Tails being heavily bullied by other people a lot. I know that isn't in the comics due to them growing up together from when Tails was a baby onwards.

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Is the thing about Tails being bullied in the past a canon thing in the video games? I've never known for sure, since I've seen many people try and do fanfics about Sonic and Tails first meetings and most of them involve Tails being heavily bullied by other people a lot. I know that isn't in the comics due to them growing up together from when Tails was a baby onwards.

From the Japanese Sonic 2 manual:

"Miles Prower" was the fox's name. Miles actually had two tails, which is why the animals on the island all called him "Tails". They teased him a lot because of those two tails.

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From the Japanese Sonic 2 manual:

 

Thanks for telling me. Obviously if it is the Japanese manual, not likely I'm going to have seen it.

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From the Japanese Sonic 2 manual:

So what do you think of my calculations for the whole "Eggman was too young to remember the incident, but old enough to eventually be affected by the backlash" thing?

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But this is EGGMAN we are talking about. I think he would be smart enough/paranoid enough to put two and two together to realize what had happened, and what's to say his original motives were something like seeking vengeance on the military, but then as he saw the progressive corruption of the government and the United Nations as a whole, he slowly changed his motives to be about conquering the world so he can force his own brand of justice on the world, and then as power corrupted him, he slowly became a total egotist (or rather his existing ego ballooned to epic proportions), thus resulting in the mutated motives he possesses today?

Yes, this is Eggman we're talking about. A guy with all the genius in the world that still gets thwarted by a blue hedgehog who's much less smarter than him; a guy who can invent any kind of counter towards said threat, whether fighting fire with fire or fire with water and still loses; said guy who, despite all his genius, can act like a bratty child from time to time.

 

Suffice it to say, Eggman didn't put two and two together until SA2's last story revealed it to him as before then all he knew was that his grandfather worked up there, developed scientific marvels there (which the government would allow be known), and really looked up to him for it as said by him in SA2's credits. This was what he believed before he heard about (and raided GUN for) his grandfather's secret project many years later. I doubt a corruption of government would have anything to do with his push to evil in his past considering that even he didn't know about the ARK being a secret factory for WMDs or Project Shadow until Shadow told him about it. Eggman may have a 300 IQ, but the government did a damn good job of keeping even him in the dark and covering their tracks until he raided their base upon the mention of Project Shadow.

 

Now an inadequate government, in his eyes, is a different story given that GUN said that there was an accident on the ARK and people died; were GUN actually adequate, you could say he believed an accident should never have happened under them. Now that's something you could work with that doesn't contradict any of the above while still getting the same motive of enacting his brand of justice upon the world which made him into the egotistical villain he is now.

Even considering that, it's still possible for it to have been an influence. Even without knowing the full story, he likely would've known of Maria's death, Gerald's arrest, and his execution. There's a number of ways he could react to/interpret that that could nudge him towards villainy. And it doesn't necessarily have to turn him from a kind-hearted optimist into Dr. Eggman, Evil Villain; he could've already been headed in that direction, but the ARK incident solidified it (or quickened it, or just nudged him a little further).

Except while it may be debatable whether or not he knew about Gerald's arrest and death considering that GUN covered the whole thing up as an accident, it's pretty clear he most certainly did not know about Gerald's execution until after he and everyone else read his diary in the Last Story. Given how GUN covered everything up and Eggman had to find out about this stuff during the course of SA2, you'd need something else about the event or something entirely different to interpret what nudged Eggman into villainy, but the actual truth behind what happened the ARK (mainly the execution, the raid, and obviously the secret weapons being developed) can't be one of them without contradicting his lack of knowledge of that very incident throughout the game.

Edited by CreepySpiritSonic
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Yes, this is Eggman we're talking about. A guy with all the genius in the world that still gets thwarted by a blue hedgehog who's much less smarter than him; a guy who can invent any kind of counter towards said threat, whether fighting fire with fire or fire with water and still loses; said guy who, despite all his genius, can act like a bratty child from time to time.

 

Suffice it to say, Eggman's didn't put two and two together until SA2's last story revealed it to him as before then all he knew was that his grandfather worked up their, developed scientific marvels there (which the government would allow be known), and really looked up to him for it as said by him in the credits. This was what he believed before he heard about (and raided GUN for) his grandfather's secret project many years later. I doubt a corruption of government would have anything to do with his push to evil in his past considering that even he didn't know about the ARK being a secret factory for WMDs or Project Shadow until Shadow told him about it. Eggman may have a 300 IQ, but the government did a damn good job of keeping even him in the dark and covering their tracks until he raided their base upon the mention of Project Shadow.

 

Now an inadequate government, in his eyes, is a different story given that GUN said that there was an accident on the ARK and people died. Now that's something you could work with that doesn't contradict any of the above.

Except while it may be debatable whether or not he knew about Gerald's arrest and death considering that GUN covered the whole thing up as an accident, it's pretty clear he most certainly did not know about Gerald's execution until after he and everyone else read his diary in the Last Story. Given how GUN covered everything up and Eggman had to find out about this stuff during the course of SA2, you'd need something else about the event or something entirely different to interpret what nudged Eggman into villainy, but the actual truth behind what happened the ARK (mainly the execution, the raid, and obviously the secret weapons being developed) can't be one of them without contradicting his lack of knowledge of that very incident throughout the game.

Oooookaaay...So how bout this?

 

Eggman basically didn't know about the full incident, but he still chafed under the tarnished Robotnik name. He thus aspires to be a renowned Professor/Doctor just like his grandfather in an attempt to fix the reputation of the Robotnik family. During his college years, he met up with Professor Pickle and developed a partial Teacher Student Friendship, with some rough spots here and there due to his ego. As he spent his time there, he learned of the mysterious Angel Island and a little bit about the rumors of stone tablets that would tell of what exactly happened to the ancient Echidnas.

 

Now around this point, he also begins to notice the corruption in the system, and begins to start getting "ideas" of reforming the government himself, especially reinforced by his perception of their incompetence in regards to the "accident" that ruined his grandfather's reputation. He becomes progressively convinced that the government is going to try to stamp out intellectuals like him as a means of consolidating their own power and wealth, which is NOT exactly helped by the fact that said government is keeping an eye on him out of fear of him finding out the details about the coverup, and thus they try to stop him in every manner possible.

 

Thus Eggman begins to rationalize his increasingly questionable actions (illegal animal stuffing into machines and such, his trademark if you will) as being necessary to a better future, all the while alienating his colleagues, with only Professor Pickle being unaware for whatever reason. Eventually however, even Pickle sees that his student has gone too far, and the relation sours considerably, to the point that Pickle calls government officials on Eggman out of fear for his own life after Eggman's experiments go horribly wrong. Eggman escapes and disappears from the public for a while, but Eggman no longer needs Pickle since he has the knowledge of Angel Island, and thus is convinced that he can find it as a means to gain the mysterious power it possesses to help him conquer the world, and thus reinvent the world in his superior and "not corrupt" image. Fast forward 20-30 years, and he reappears in wherever the hell Sonic 1 took place, attempting to get the means to build an endless army after years of preparation, all the while searching for Angel Island.

 

Of course he never suspected that his actions would attract the attention of a certain blue hedgehog...

Edited by Wonder-ED (Missile)
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It's fine with me.

 

About the only irk scratching at my mind is him knowing Pickle in his past (which believe me when I say I would totally love to see) when we've gone so long before his debut in Unleashed, so I'm assuming you're going for an origin retelling while keeping everything else the same? Not like there isn't room to flesh that past out, but still just a minor pick...

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It's fine with me.

 

About the only irk scratching at my mind is him knowing Pickle in his past (which believe me when I say I would totally love to see) when we've gone so long before his debut in Unleashed, so I'm assuming you're going for an origin retelling while keeping everything else the same? Not like there isn't room to flesh that past out, but still just a minor pick...

Well I ended up thinking about it because I had this headcanon idea that Eggman got his knowledge of Angel Island (or at least the rumor of its existence) from somewhere, and Pickle WAS an archaeology professor, so he would have likely known something about said rumor. Dark Gaia would have basically been him revisiting his old teacher to forcefully gain the info, so it made sense in my mind.

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  • 2 weeks later...

1. While I think SA2 Eggman was a good display of character, I don't think it was a good display of his competence, largely because his  plan was doomed from the very beginning. Sure his execution was decent enough, especially his intimidation and savvy gambit to Sonic, but it meant nothing if it was for a plan didn't stand a chance. Not to mention it exaggerated his usual patsy role, with every cohort he had (as well as his own grandfather) duping him for their own agenda. As Rouge even lamp shaded 'Tricking that doctor is just too easy'.

 

I can actually say the same for Satam Robotnik. Julian was unique in being sinister and atmospheric, but he actually made a lot of stupid Bond villain level mistakes that even the goofiest of Eggmen usually avoid, and at times it seemed more a case of suspension of disbelief that he remained on top. Remember Eggman may not have actually gotten full control, but Julian got it and then lost it more via his own blind arrogance than Sonic outsmarting him.

 

2. I don't think the Archie characterizations are an improvement over the games ones, if anything they've diluted most of what makes the characters stand out, since while they are maybe more competent, they are robbed of their distinguishing quirks and never really seem vibrant enough to pivot the plot. Few of the writers have been any good at writing flawed characters, making them either bland, inconsistent or just plain douche-like (maybe the reason they do a better job with villains who have far less restraint). Not to mention most of their attempts at 'developing' a character usually involve downplaying all what lingering flaws they have to give them the demeanor of a boring old sage (eg. Antoine was a one note Straw Loser in Satam, but at least that was SOMETHING, you could at least make stories that he had effect on). The fact that a Sonic game has now done a great job making two additions look more well rounded and flawed while still being likable only further shows the comics up.

 

3. I'm gonna play a middle road here and say Sally has all the potential to be a great addition to the franchise, but is ruined by glorified execution and being limited to a very one note role. I like the idea of having a meticulous, over cautious foil to rival Sonic's spontaneous, like the wind personality, but the problem is, rather than giving the two the same Smart/Idiot Ball ratio and having them both rub off each other evenhandedly as a sign of compromise, they tend to simplify Sally into a 'better half' for Sonic, making her meticulous ways always more competent and rational than Sonic's and simplifying all his defining qualities to their negative aspects (and even giving him some new flaws just to keep her relevant). There are countless times Sally acted as a perfect foil and 'babysitter' to Sonic's recklessness and abrasiveness, though in the 20 years of her run I don't think there's been a single point Sally's needed Sonic to bail her out from her own meticulous habits go overboard.

 

Even within writers' attempts to (rather forcibly) give her a token 'Not So Above It All' moment, they miss the mark, since it's almost always via some unrelated Compressed Vice or simply switching her ethics with Sonic (Sonic can't get positive development from Sally acting as reckless as him since that's still his own qualities being portrayed negatively) rather than from her own defining traits (she at least had that sort of standard finicky, temperamental personality in Satam, but this usually only played into making her an Insufferable Genius or Rightly Self Righteous to Sonic's stupidity than making any screw ups of her own). In the state she is Sally is not only a rather undeveloped character, but one that is very detrimental to Sonic's character, hence maybe why she gets these 'Mary Sue' criticisms since she is designed to make a usually competent and moderated character look more idiotic for her benefit.

 

PS. YAY, I can finally post. biggrin.png

Edited by E-122-Psi
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Unpopular opinion: Sonally/SonSal makes no sense to me. And it's a pairing that morphs Sonic's character into the opposite of what it is to make it work. No, Sonic isn't a king, he isn't royalty. He isn't a royal lapdog and he doesn't do things by the book. He's also not a political pawn, he does things his way and absolutely no one can hope to influence him when he's set in the way he goes about things regarding how he approaches heroics. He doesn't need someone to steer him (No Dr Eggman, Sally was never needed to steer the 'WMD' (Sonic) because he can steer himself competently enough) And he certainly isn't very romantically-inclined in the first place. The very foundation of Sonic's personality and take on heroism has to be glossed-over and ignored in order to make this pairing look like it's feasible. And it certainly doesn't fool me.

 

Not only that but it portrayals in the comics under multiple writer's pens (With the possible exception of Bollers) absolutely reek of OTP shilling. Look Flynn, Sonic Genesis was supposed to be about a 20th anniversary marking and by that reasoning should theoretically have been about that, not an excuse to shove your OTP and pet character into prominence and make her even more of a Sue than she is already (Having a beautiful singing voice and talking to Flickies? Wow...that totally didn't come out of left field). And the consistent spit-swapping in situations where it looks extremely out-of-place and forced is frankly an embarrassment to this franchise next to the times when this comic was effectively a melodramatic furry soap opera with terrible art. I mean criticizers of this series' fans latch-on to it's obnoxious fixation with shipping. Why not this awful comic too? In my view, it's fixation with 'romantic shenanigans' is just as annoying as the shipping antics of some of the fandom.

 

Popular or unpopular opinion? Lost World's portrayal of Sonic and the Storybook game's portrayal of Sonic are equally of merit but in different areas. Both are now what I agree to be superior to Unleashed's portrayal of the character and overall the best portrayal of the character in the franchise hands down. I was asked last night by SSMB member Blaire my feelings on this subject which I answered on Tumblr. So I'll copy-paste here what I think;

 

I think I’m coming to the opinion that each portrayal scores in pretty different areas and are equally of merit. They excel in what they attempt with Sonic’s character.

 

Secret Rings marvelously portrays Sonic’s selflessness, kindness and resilience as well as optimism. It’s a portrayal that expertly gets-across the character’s more admirable traits. But it does more than just that. The aforementioned traits is where it sparkles in particular. You just know that Sonic would be an awesome friend to have and SatSR is probably the most triumphant example showing why he would be.

 

Black Knight is overall very marginally superior to Secret Rings’ portrayal of Sonic but doesn’t have the…how do you say? “power” to it that SatSR has regarding Sonic’s acknowledgement of his mortality and the suffering the character goes through as the result of a selfless action. Instead, BK excels in the area of fortitude regarding his ideals, that very Sonic-like trait of sticking up for beliefs despite being in a world that expects him to abide by specific standards, revealing his non-conformist attitude and showing that he has the right priorities about things, making his attitude to Heroism that much more interesting, it being a practically flawless portrayal of what the characters stands for.

Bonus points for how it portrayed Sonic perfectly in-character in other areas i.e Short temper, pride, wittiness.

 

Lost World to me was immensely interesting and deserving of praise for multiple reasons. It got Sonic’s character back on-track after both Colours and Gens fumbled the ball with it. It was extremely convincing in how it portrayed Sonic’s admittance of his culpability, something that Unleashed pretty glaringly lacked and it’s commendable for how it actually made Sonic sympathetic despite it being his fault that certain plot points happened. If anything, Sonic’s pretty fresh realization that his abilities didn’t suffice to prevent bad things from happening makes him more realistic. The interactions with Tails were superior to Colours IMO and the way Sonic acted around Eggman was exactly how I expected him to. He had really well done emotional states, sarcasm/snark that was right on the mark and it was cool how he was never intimidated by any of the Zeti including Zavok. Only aiding this excellent depiction of the character was Roger’s exemplary voice work.

 

All three portrayals are fantastic for different reasons. And I feel I can only come to a conclusion on what I think by giving each one it’s dues in what it accomplishes with Sonic’s character. It’s very difficult if not impossible for me to say which one is the outriht “best” characterization for that reason.

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Unpopular opinion: Sonally/SonSal makes no sense to me. And it's a pairing that morphs Sonic's character into the opposite of what it is to make it work. No, Sonic isn't a king, he isn't royalty. He isn't a royal lapdog and he doesn't do things by the book. He's also not a political pawn, he does things his way and absolutely no one can hope to influence him when he's set in the way he goes about things regarding how he approaches heroics. He doesn't need someone to steer him (No Dr Eggman, Sally was never needed to steer the 'WMD' (Sonic) because he can steer himself competently enough) And he certainly isn't very romantically-inclined in the first place. The very foundation of Sonic's personality and take on heroism has to be glossed-over and ignored in order to make this pairing look like it's feasible. And it certainly doesn't fool me.

 

Not only that but it portrayals in the comics under multiple writer's pens (With the possible exception of Bollers) absolutely reek of OTP shilling. Look Flynn, Sonic Genesis was supposed to be about a 20th anniversary marking and by that reasoning should theoretically have been about that, not an excuse to shove your OTP and pet character into prominence and make her even more of a Sue than she is already (Having a beautiful singing voice and talking to Flickies? Wow...that totally didn't come out of left field). And the consistent spit-swapping in situations where it looks extremely out-of-place and forced is frankly an embarrassment to this franchise next to the times when this comic was effectively a melodramatic furry soap opera with terrible art. I mean criticizers of this series' fans latch-on to it's obnoxious fixation with shipping. Why not this awful comic too? In my view, it's fixation with 'romantic shenanigans' is just as annoying as the shipping antics of some of the fandom.

 

Popular or unpopular opinion? Lost World's portrayal of Sonic and the Storybook game's portrayal of Sonic are equally of merit but in different areas. Both are now what I agree to be superior to Unleashed's portrayal of the character and overall the best portrayal of the character in the franchise hands down. I was asked last night by SSMB member Blaire my feelings on this subject which I answered on Tumblr. So I'll copy-paste here what I think;

 

I think I’m coming to the opinion that each portrayal scores in pretty different areas and are equally of merit. They excel in what they attempt with Sonic’s character.

 

Secret Rings marvelously portrays Sonic’s selflessness, kindness and resilience as well as optimism. It’s a portrayal that expertly gets-across the character’s more admirable traits. But it does more than just that. The aforementioned traits is where it sparkles in particular. You just know that Sonic would be an awesome friend to have and SatSR is probably the most triumphant example showing why he would be.

 

Black Knight is overall very marginally superior to Secret Rings’ portrayal of Sonic but doesn’t have the…how do you say? “power” to it that SatSR has regarding Sonic’s acknowledgement of his mortality and the suffering the character goes through as the result of a selfless action. Instead, BK excels in the area of fortitude regarding his ideals, that very Sonic-like trait of sticking up for beliefs despite being in a world that expects him to abide by specific standards, revealing his non-conformist attitude and showing that he has the right priorities about things, making his attitude to Heroism that much more interesting, it being a practically flawless portrayal of what the characters stands for.

Bonus points for how it portrayed Sonic perfectly in-character in other areas i.e Short temper, pride, wittiness.

 

Lost World to me was immensely interesting and deserving of praise for multiple reasons. It got Sonic’s character back on-track after both Colours and Gens fumbled the ball with it. It was extremely convincing in how it portrayed Sonic’s admittance of his culpability, something that Unleashed pretty glaringly lacked and it’s commendable for how it actually made Sonic sympathetic despite it being his fault that certain plot points happened. If anything, Sonic’s pretty fresh realization that his abilities didn’t suffice to prevent bad things from happening makes him more realistic. The interactions with Tails were superior to Colours IMO and the way Sonic acted around Eggman was exactly how I expected him to. He had really well done emotional states, sarcasm/snark that was right on the mark and it was cool how he was never intimidated by any of the Zeti including Zavok. Only aiding this excellent depiction of the character was Roger’s exemplary voice work.

 

All three portrayals are fantastic for different reasons. And I feel I can only come to a conclusion on what I think by giving each one it’s dues in what it accomplishes with Sonic’s character. It’s very difficult if not impossible for me to say which one is the outriht “best” characterization for that reason.

 

And here's another round of agree and disagree. Verte, I'm only responding towards your first opinion with this one, as I totally agree with everything your second says. The Storybook games and Lost World are all triumphs relating to Sonic's character. The fact that each of their voices in these games provided spectacular performances only makes it better.

 

Ok. Let us begin.

 

As someone that absolutely loves the SonSal pairing, I hope I can make it seem a little more sensible. SonSal as a pairing doesn't have to undermine Sonic's character to work. The reason why this pairing makes any sort of sense all relate to Sonic being the way that he is. Same goes for Sally.

 

1.) Pairing Sonic and Sally together does not mean you have to make Sonic royalty. The crazy load of bullshit that is Mobius XY years later may present this idea and try to deem itself as the only option, but it's a limited perspective. Yes, one way to put them together is by making Sonic a Royal Who Actually Does Something, but the other is also painfully obvious: Sally relinquishing her status as princess, and sticking by Sonic's side. I've seen this idea being floated around a few times, and it makes sense. Sonic is someone who loves to see the world and not be tied down by an authority figure. Sally may fit the role of Princess is the story, but thanks to Sonic, has developed her own taste for adventure. She only returned to the crown because she felt it was here responsibility with no one else to fill the royal role. She'd much rather be alongside Sonic and the other Freedom Fighters, doing good  and having adventures.

 

Basically, instead of tying down Sonic, you free up Sally. It works due to their character interactions and how much each has rubbed off on the other. It even makes their future a lot less complicated, and much more enjoyable for both. Sonic wouldn't have to go through a midlife crisis, and Sally wouldn't have to be, honestly, a really boring housewife. The only reason I can see Flynn or other writers not wanting to go down this route is that "King Sonic" sounds like a much more exciting tale to tell, despite how much it could hurt Sonic and Sally's characters.

 

2.) Again with the royalty, Sonic doesn't have to be "in service to the king / queen," nor a political pawn. And again, it's easily fixable in terms of writing. The whole purpose of the Freedom Fighters is to protect Mobius / Earth from whatever evil forces that threaten the populace, with Eggman easily being the biggest bad. The only thing that really makes them royal is the fact that Sally is a princess, and they were fighting to give Knothole's king his throne back. Now that he does, there's really no excuse to keep them specifically under the king.  I agree with your point that Sonic shouldn't have to be tied down like this. As evidenced by the conflict with Nagus usurping the throne, and the Council of Acorns acting like buffoons, when royals and officials are able to tie Sonic's feet, so to speak..

 

SonicNoGood.gif

 

In addition to Sally leaving the throne to find happiness, as clearly she doesn't enjoy the politics that royalty provides (though Sonic outright trumps her in that regard) and wishes to seek out what her heart desires (case in point, her internal conflict with the Source of All), the FF's could be independent from the crown. The king could recognize them as their own group of heroes, instead of being tied down to the royal decision, because they are perfectly capable of defending their world without the King or Council's approval. If they went down the road of Team Fighters, but ALL of them were traveling Mobius to foil Eggman's schemes, that could work. No suffering characterization there, as Sonic can travel the world while Sally can help serve her people... all at the same time.

 

3.) Sonic doing things his own way does not stop the pairing from working. In fact, it only helps strengthen their bonds. Yes, Sonic is a rational being, capable of making smart decisions. That's common sense. Doing things the way he sees fit has worked out well enough for the blue dude. Again, I'm not disputing this.

 

HOWEVER. this also means that Sonic knows a good idea when he sees one, and is willing to listen to his friends advice. A good scripture says that "in the multitude of counsel, there is safety." If Sally is willing to take a few pages out of Sonic's book, why can't Sonic do the same if it suits him? This is a dynamic that any good couple can have: they listen to each other,  build upon the other's strengths, and help balance out their weaknesses. Sonic is a lot more reckless and is used to acting in the heat of the moment. This isn't to say that Sonic is an idiot and incapable of being a strategist, but that Sally is generally better at being so. Likewise, Sally tries very hard to take control of a situation. She makes elaborate plans, but many of them aren't flexible. Again, this isn't meant to say that Sally isn't flexible, but Sonic knows how to make the best out of many situations. Character dynamics like these are the driving point of the pairing in the first place, and the main reason I personally love it.

 

Referring back to Eggman's point about Sally "steering" Sonic, you're right, but kind of missing the point. Of course Sally isn't really "needed" for Sonic to make decisions. He would have been pissed off that Eggman took over his home and screwed everything up, Sal or no Sal. But that wasn't the point that Eggman was trying to make. A Weapon of Mass Destruction is already capable of doing its job. When he's talking about Sally "steering the WMD" is that Sally had helped Sonic to be even more effective against the Doctor. Sonic already kicks his ass on a regular basis, but he's doing so with others supporting him. Sally was just one of the main people that did so.

 

Sonic's take on heroism and personality isn't undermined, he just has a friend with a different perspective. If Sonic's unique traits and personality were to change, that would go against the very reason Sally likes him for. If it seems otherwise, then you can blame it on a series of unfortunate events bad writing.

 

The fact that we've seen many of the writers for this comic push the paring is just a sign of how much many of these writers like it in the first place. Ian himself apparently likes the pairing a lot, and even Penders liked it. (Though I really am happy that his School Days esque story involving the two never came to pass...) It's typical of writers that like a particular pairing: unless they own the material, or if they don't and they get a message from higher ups to chill the fuck out with things like this, they're gonna try to push it. If a writer wanted a particular paring to pass, they'd try to write around the story to make it work. Sure it's rather stupid and makes the characters suspect to sue- ification, but hey. And to be fair, quite a few of the times that the two have kissed made sense in context and were genuinely sweet. I will agree that the pairing shouldn't have to be shoved down people's throats in order for it to work though. It just sours people to it, even more so if the characters are written like Mary Sues / Gary Stus. They don't have to kiss all the time, just when it's necessary. It works a lot better this way.

 

Anyway, my main point is that the pairing can work. It really can. The only thing holding it back is the writers never taking the time to iron out any kinks it has, and trying to cover it up by undermining the characters unintentionally.

 

Whew. That took a ridiculous amount of time to type.

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Well...as it turns out, one of the very lattermost points you made isn't quite true...

You mean about the whole WMD thing? How so?

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You mean about the whole WMD thing? How so?

 

No, Ian being fond of Sonic/Sally. Like I said in the Archie topic, he's apparently grown tired of it. 

Edited by VEDJ-F
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No, Ian being fond of Sonic/Sally. Like I said in the Archie topic, he's apparently grown tired of it. 

Oh right. Almost forgot about that. He's keeping Sonic single at the moment because writing it in is wearing him out. That's understandable. That doesn't mean that he doesn't like the pairing, just that he's gonna give it a break.

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Ah Zavok. I should've clarified. I don't consider the pairing to look natural at all from the way it's been written up to this point, the shoving of it down my throat only making me dislike the pairing even more and am not judging it from what it could be because I was focusing on how I perceive it up to this point. I even question this so-called 'limitation' on who Sonic can be paired-with and how it is to be written when they're married in the future and when the portrayals are so often not subtle.

 

But your post is really well thought-out and convincing nonetheless in terms of what could be done with it. What makes it more intriguing in this whole topsy-turvy timeline/planet now and how apparently the pairing is becoming samey and uninteresting to Flynn.

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Truthfully I think it's just as well. Flynn isn't really good at writing pairings OR Sal (and he's arguably BETTER than previous writers following the direction to more serious stories). He isn't good at making complex unique chemistries, in fact the nearest to depth nearly every pairing in the comics has is the same generic 'aggressive dumb male vs rational smart female' archetype. The rest just consist of making smoochy faces at each other non stop. He isn't much good at Sal because he isn't good at making a character's 'quirks' matter to the story and downplays them in favor of making her a more 'down to earth' character we can take seriously. Nearly all the Freedom Fighters verge on Everyman territory these days.

 

I always felt Sally would work a lot better if they emphasized the 'Not So Different' chemistry the two had, and Sally was just as arrogant and persistent in her meticulous ways as Sonic was in his spontaneous ones. This was lightly touched upon in early comics and Satam where she was more comically neurotic and controlling, but as said before, she was still usually the clear moral superior and her flawed moments were still far more rare and subtle and usually unrelated to her own approach. We never see the full fatal potential of Sally's 'by the book' qualities compared to Sonic's reckless ones, which regularly lead him to almost get himself killed and suffer a whopping Humiliation Conga. I think this is a shame because you'd think this would give them a more relatable link if they were both kinda egotists, but in different levels the other can solve and even out, giving a chance for both of their flaw and strengths to come out depending on the circumstance. I think it's a lot more depthful and consistent than the usual 'Always right vs always wrong' type mechanic anyway.

 

Take Baloo and Rebecca in Talespin for example, they have a similar dynamic, and their chemistry is much more platonic and subtle, but it's actually more believable because Rebecca's tactical approach is shown in a very similar fallible and bombastic manner as Baloo's rebellious one, so they don't seem like to completely incompatible characters. Also look at Rainbow Dash and Twilight Sparkle in Friendship Is Magic. Rainbow Dash has the usual 'action first, planning later' approach, but since Twilight Sparkle has the opposite direction to the point of...well...'clock is TICKING'... she's in just as much need of support. Meticulous certainly isn't more sane and competent than spontaneous by default.

 

Hell in just one game we've got a more two way chemistry with Sonic and Tails. Tails similarly calls out Sonic on his cockiness and recklessness, but has also developed his own flaws such as a bratty temper and attention deficit from his fixation to his machines and planning that help reflect Sonic's own more focused and even tempered facets. It feels like both help even out the other in terms of their key traits, compared to Sonic and Sally's chemistry which is more one same character having all the good qualities and the other having all the bad, with the odd token personality switch.

Edited by E-122-Psi
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  • 2 weeks later...

I like Unleashed and Colors more than Generations (runs behind barricade) 

 

I never understood why people have to be scared of which games they like? Lots of people thin Unleashed is the better of the three games and many think it is one of the other two in that list. Different people will agree with you and others will disagree. Everyone has their own preference of which one they like the most, because I do agree that I lie Unleashed the most of all three of them.

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