Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Jet Prower]

When it comes to dark feelings. Yes, SA2 and Shadow are a bit more extreme in that, but honestly, it never bothered me to be honest.

 

I do feel Lost World did mild darkness if you want to say it that way. It did more of emotional darkness rather than lets show all the things being destroyed and people dying first hand like Shadow did in his game. Yes, there is destruction and such going on in Lost World, but it is somewhat downplayed, because the area Sonic is currently in isn't really going through changes. You are seeing a lot more of Sonic's emotions to the fact  that he may be failing instead of just getting through it all with few problems at all. I do feel Lost World is a good example of how to do a more downplayed version of a dark story. Its not super dark by any means, but believe me, there is darkness there when you think about it more.

 

As for Genocide making people upset, hasn't that always been one of the main things Eggman has usually been trying to accomplish from the very beginning to begin with? How can that upset people, when usually that IS his ultimate goal it would appear many times in the past.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

When it comes to dark feelings. Yes, SA2 and Shadow are a bit more extreme in that, but honestly, it never bothered me to be honest.

 

I do feel Lost World did mild darkness if you want to say it that way. It did more of emotional darkness rather than lets show all the things being destroyed and people dying first hand like Shadow did in his game. Yes, there is destruction and such going on in Lost World, but it is somewhat downplayed, because the area Sonic is currently in isn't really going through changes. You are seeing a lot more of Sonic's emotions to the fact  that he may be failing instead of just getting through it all with few problems at all. I do feel Lost World is a good example of how to do a more downplayed version of a dark story. Its not super dark by any means, but believe me, there is darkness there when you think about it more.

 

As for Genocide making people upset, hasn't that always been one of the main things Eggman has usually been trying to accomplish from the very beginning to begin with? How can that upset people, when usually that IS his ultimate goal it would appear many times in the past.

Not really. Eggman's overall plan, at least based on his personality and motives, is to basically take over the world and set things up in his image so he can preen his massive ego. Genocide would actually be the exact OPPOSITE of what he wants, since then there would be no one left to lord his ego and narcissism over.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Wonder ED

[E-122-Psi]

I don't get how Sonic is a series that whenever it tries to be more complex than "Eggman's doing bad things" or things get darker, it suddenly becomes "pretentious". Dark works are no more ambitious or dangerous than light works, because a lot of Lighthearted reboots have also been met with flack too(Hello Crash, Pac Man).

 

Freaking Toy Story 3, a movie about toys, calls the audience to take the movie seriously at various points, are you going to call it pretentious because the premise surrounds inanimate objects? In fact, I'd say Toy Story calls for a suspension of disbelief far more than Sonic does.

 

Yes, it all depends on the quality of the writing, but that's like saying the sky is blue, or water is wet. Anything related to literature can be good or bad depending on how its written, but if we're going to decry dark elements simply on the basis of being dark alone, then I honestly question if people have an understanding of the concept in the first place.

Darkness period isn't pretentious. I call Sonic works pretentious because they try to be dark via the wrong methods such as cheap cliches of what 'maturity and grimdark' represents or not executing the proper amount of tension or emotional value the story attempts to represent. Dark is only good if you can execute it right.

 

There are times they can do a dark work with at least some palpable idea how to take it and it stands well to some degree (eg. Satam or SA1) but even those cases tend to play themselves as being a lot more consistent and deep than they really are, and thus plot errors or lack of depth hurt their story a lot more than light hearted ones do.

 

As mentioned above, cartoony stories can still have a moderated amount of darkness in them. Lost World had some decent attempts at more drama value that never went over the top or past it's boundries that it just came off as pompous crap.

Edited November 12, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Kuzu]

Darkness period isn't pretentious. I call Sonic works pretentious because they try to be dark via the wrong methods such as cheap cliches of what 'maturity and grimdark' represents or not executing the proper amount of tension or emotional value the story attempts to represent. Dark is only good if you can execute it right.

 

There are times they can do a dark work and it stands well to some degree (eg. Satam or SA1) but even those cases tend to play themselves as being a lot more consistent and deep than they really are, and thus plot errors or lack of depth hurt their story a lot more than light hearted ones do.

 

As mentioned above, cartoony stories can still have a moderated amount of darkness in them. Lost World had some decent attempts at more drama value that never went over the top or past it's boundries that it just came off as pompous crap.

 

Lost World is dark yes, but it also has its share of plot errors as well as you mentioned; a work being light or dark isn't immune to be bad, and I don't think a lighthearted work should be given a pass just on the premise that the audience isn't supposed to take it seriously. A poorly told story is a poorly told story, tone is irrelevant in this case because it and the quality of the writing are two separate entities.

[Jet Prower]

Not really. Eggman's overall plan, at least based on his personality and motives, is to basically take over the world and set things up in his image so he can preen his massive ego. Genocide would actually be the exact OPPOSITE of what he wants, since then there would be no one left to lord his ego and narcissism over.

 

I'm guessing I tend to think more in terms of how Satam Robotnik, SA2 Eggman and how archie Eggman have acted before. They pretty much have appeared to want to just destroy everything there is and rule over just mindless robots. It has either been that, or if you people won't serve under me, I'm going to just blow up the planet and be done with it all. Eggman has never appeared to me to want to rule over the people normally, other than maybe a little bit in Underground and such. He often times seems like he either wants to destroy everything or keep everyone prisoner inside robots forever.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Lost World is dark yes, but it also has its share of plot errors as well as you mentioned; a work being light or dark isn't immune to be bad, and I don't think a lighthearted work should be given a pass just on the premise that the audience isn't supposed to take it seriously. A poorly told story is a poorly told story, tone is irrelevant in this case because it and the quality of the writing are two separate entities.

Cannot upvote this enough. The whole "give lighthearted stuff a pass regardless of quality, while shitting on darkness for just existence regardless of quality" HAS ALWAYS BEEN A HUGE THORN IN MY SIDE. Granted bad dark stories get on my nerves too, but the former has become so ridiculously popular a mentality in my eyes that it has frankly become one of my greatest pet peeves.

[Kuzu]

That reasoning is partially why everyone isn't as hard on games like Colors, Generations, or Lost World for their mishaps, but everyone is quick to call out the flaws of other games like SA2, Shadow, or 06. Not that the last three games didn't have their problems, but I see far more vitriol to the latter than the former.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I'm guessing I tend to think more in terms of how Satam Robotnik, SA2 Eggman and how archie Eggman have acted before. They pretty much have appeared to want to just destroy everything there is and rule over just mindless robots. It has either been that, or if you people won't serve under me, I'm going to just blow up the planet and be done with it all. Eggman has never appeared to me to want to rule over the people normally, other than maybe a little bit in Underground and such. He often times seems like he either wants to destroy everything or keep everyone prisoner inside robots forever.

Not really the case for SA2 Eggman, because if you think about it, he pretty much just wanted to conquer the world, and the whole Eclipse Cannon thing was frankly more of a tool to threaten the world into submitting rather than the end-all be all. If it was the end-all be all, he wouldn't have helped to save the world from his Grandfather's attempt at mass-genocide from the grave, now would he?

 

Plus, it also reflects his ego in some way: The former, he is so sure of himself and of his power that he would willingly threaten the leader(s) of the world to get what he wants, and the latter he is not only saving the world for the sake of having a world to conquer, but also because he is also likely thinking of his own safety and thus wants to keep himself alive as well. Plus, I would think SA2 Eggman would be kind of offended that his own grandfather would deem his own descendants expendable enough to destroy the world for revenge and take that as an insult as much as a shock.

[Jet Prower]

Cannot upvote this enough. The whole "give lighthearted stuff a pass regardless of quality, while shitting on darkness for just existence regardless of quality" HAS ALWAYS BEEN A HUGE THORN IN MY SIDE. Granted bad dark stories get on my nerves too, but the former has become so ridiculously popular a mentality in my eyes that it has frankly become one of my greatest pet peeves.

 

I'm surprised a lot of people feel that light stories are all there should be and there should never be dark stories at all. Most stories I have ever written for Sonic usually tend to be a lot darker than they do light hearted. It is so much easier to make story conflict that you need to write a better story with a slightly darker tone than it is a lighter tone to the story. Light stories can definitely work if done correct. I'm sure people see them all the time. It is just in my experience, that a slightly darker story, you don't have to go massively overboard with it, can often times work a lot better than a lighter story.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I'm surprised a lot of people feel that light stories are all there should be and there should never be dark stories at all. Most stories I have ever written for Sonic usually tend to be a lot darker than they do light hearted. It is so much easier to make story conflict that you need to write a better story with a slightly darker tone than it is a lighter tone to the story. Light stories can definitely work if done correct. I'm sure people see them all the time. It is just in my experience, that a slightly darker story, you don't have to go massively overboard with it, can often times work a lot better than a lighter story.

It's not that I don't like a lighthearted story; I would never have been able to enjoy Zoids: New Century or Ed Edd N' Eddy if I didn't like them. The problem I have is mainly the attitude and the stigma and double standard it presents. If people criticized a poorly written lighthearted story as harshly as they did a poorly written dark story, I wouldn't be anywhere near as bothered. Because I feel that isn't the case however, I feel like the argument is less about quality and more about narrowing down what is allowed to be done to Sonic to whatever their double standard deems "RIGHT", which pisses me off.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Wonder ED

[Dr. Mechano]

I feel like, in the Sonic series at least, lighthearted stories have been much better at taking time for characters interacting and showing their personalities than the darker games do, which usually just have exposition dialog in the direction of "The bad guy did the thing, so let's do the thing to stop the thing he did."

 

I don't know. The bulk of Shadow's and 2K6's dialog was just devoted to explaining what was going on, with very little (not none, but very little) in the way of good, entertaining character interaction. Colors, Lost World, and arguably even Generations had much better dialog between the characters in my opinion.

[E-122-Psi]

I think it's just the fact that, while a bad story is bad either genre, adding a pretentious air and pompous confidence that the story really is awesome and deep just makes even more unbearable.

 

This is why I can't stand Archie, most of the time the actual plots aren't much worse than the lighthearted games, but because there's always this attempt at having a dignified and serious air to it that's not really there, it comes off as pompous and shallow. Not to mention Ian constantly breathes into it how much he believes he is 'improving' the setup and characters and making everything more complex and dramatic than it actually is (and at some points when he is actually making it worse, he can't write characters for crap, but is still firmly convinced he rescued half the cast from the Scrappy Heap), it just makes me cringe.

 

Comical stuff like Aosth certainly has it's bad moments in spades, but it doesn't ask you to think it's a neatly written masterpiece, it just asks you enjoy the simple story for what it is.

 

 

I feel like, in the Sonic series at least, lighthearted stories have been much better at taking time for characters interacting and showing their personalities than the darker games do, which usually just have exposition dialog in the direction of "The bad guy did the thing, so let's do the thing to stop the thing he did."

 

I don't know. The bulk of Shadow's and 2K6's dialog was just devoted to explaining what was going on, with very little (not none, but very little) in the way of good, entertaining character interaction. Colors, Lost World, and arguably even Generations had much better dialog between the characters in my opinion.

Thank you. My key problem with pretty much every 'dark' interpretation so far.

 

People tend to forget that most of the Sonic characters are driven by quirks, funny eccentric qualities that are capable of being sentimental and poignant in the right moderation, but are required to some degree to be wacky to emit character. You can give a broom a tragic backstory but it's still a broom.

 

FIM is an example of a light hearted show that works because, while it does have the odd dark or serious moment at the right time to help emit character, it never forgets it's a cartoon, and it never suppresses that element to the cast as if it's embarrassed of it. It actually expands and exploits it to make them more depthful. It's only more noticeable because half of the characters in the show are similar archetypes to Sonic characters (Twilight Sparkle is basically Sally Acorn if they ever bothered with actual characterization over exposition and mature backstory and teen drama).

Edited November 12, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[MegasonicZX]

Unpopular opinion: I didn't really think SA2 had a dark story until I heard everybody saying it on this board, sure the whole planet could've been destroyed at the end (or at least one huge part of it) but besides that though the whole "SA2 is extremely dark" thing is kind of overblown.

[E-122-Psi]

It doesn't really slide into dark territory until the Last Story, where you find out Gerald and Maria's backstory and the grave actions of GUN's conspiracy (revealed by a old message of the deceased maniac as he awaits execution no less). Then it gets pretty grim...

 

I've heard claims that you can hear gun fire at the end of Gerald's message in some versions, is this true?

Edited November 12, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Tara]

 

I've heard claims that you can hear gun fire at the end of Gerald's message in some versions, is this true?

Pretty sure it's not.

 

On the subject of gunshots, though, during the flashback scene immediately before Radical Highway, as Shadow and Maria are running down the hall, attempting to escape the G.U.N. soldiers, you can hear a fairly realistic gunshot.  In addition, Maria seems pretty short of breath as well, implying her gruesome fate.  So, that's still pretty dark, and in my opinion a tad out of place in a Sonic game, but not grimdark fan fiction gorefest level or anything.

[Dr. Mechano]

I've heard claims that you can hear gun fire at the end of Gerald's message in some versions, is this true?

Not in the game.

 

I think you can in the Sonic X adaptation of the scene, though (cut in the dub, of course). I distinctly remember hearing gunshots in that episode, but admittedly it has been a while.

[E-122-Psi]

My complaints for SA2 were less it was pretentious about it's darkness, but more it was trying a bit too much to carry Sonic into a genre that didn't quite match, along with the fact that the darkness was taken into a light that went beyond just poignant and dramatic and outright unsettling and borderline morbid (they managed to carry the atmosphere very well with Gerald's message but all the more reason it comes off rather disturbing coming to realize all the grim implications of the suffering and distress that went on, and unlike so many others, there was no redeeming moment for Gerald, he was unceremoniously killed a depressed lunatic and GUN got away scot free). 

 

My complaints are similar for instances such as Cosmo's death scene in Sonic X. It's executed well, but it's such an outright disturbing to watch and out of place moment in the series I can almost see justification in 4Kids toning it down. At the end of the day, Sonic is still primarily bought by kids, and I think more than a few would be left rather unsettled by subject matter such as that compared to say, Mufasa or Bambi's mother dying, which is sad, but executed in a softened manner that is poignant rather than macabre.

Edited November 12, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Diogenes]

Unpopular opinion: I didn't really think SA2 had a dark story until I heard everybody saying it on this board, sure the whole planet could've been destroyed at the end (or at least one huge part of it) but besides that though the whole "SA2 is extremely dark" thing is kind of overblown.

It's not really the potential destruction of Earth that's dark. It's that the story is based on the accidental killing of a young girl by a soldier, the governmental corruption and coverups that led to and followed it, and the man who went insane with grief because of it. That's some pretty dark shit for a series that started with a feisty mascot character bopping goofy robots.

[MegasonicZX]

It's not really the potential destruction of Earth that's dark. It's that the story is based on the accidental killing of a young girl by a soldier, the governmental corruption and coverups that led to and followed it, and the man who went insane with grief because of it. That's some pretty dark shit for a series that started with a feisty mascot character bopping goofy robots.

Yeah, I guess in that case it definitely is pretty dark.

[Jet Prower]

 

My complaints are similar for instances such as Cosmo's death scene in Sonic X. It's executed well, but it's such an outright disturbing to watch and out of place moment in the series I can almost see justification in 4Kids toning it down. At the end of the day, Sonic is still primarily bought by kids, and I think more than a few would be left rather unsettled by subject matter such as that compared to say, Mufasa or Bambi's mother dying, which is sad, but executed in a softened manner that is poignant rather than macabre.

 

How is Cosmo's death scene out of place in the series? While I would like her to still be around very much so, I don't see how it is out of place to have a character be killed off in this series? Many kids series have death in them, disney is full of death to be honest, at least back in the day it did a lot more so than current day, but it is still around. Kids that can't handle death really need to learn to deal with it early and not be traumatized by it by overprotective parents.

[Chaos Incarnate]

I've got a mix of popular and unpopular opinions here.

 

-I like Chip in every way and find his friendship with Sonic to be one of the best aspects of Unleashed's plot.

-I don't mind hub worlds, and would like to see them make a return if they allow full use of Sonic's moveset like in Adventure and Generations.

-The Deadly Six are some of the best new characters added to the franchise and I hope they make a return. Oh, and Zor is my favorite of them all.

-Treasure hunting was never good and I don't like the concept in Sonic games at all. Adventure's are only better in comparison to Adventure 2's since the radar wasn't aggravating beyond all belief yet.

- Kirk Thornton is a great Shadow VA and much better than Griffith's take IMHO.

-Sonic Heroes and Sonic Lost World's soundtracks are some of the most forgettable in the series. Heroes gets extra points for its kickass vocal themes, which unfortunately Lost World doesn't have at all.

-Bringing in Archie characters is fine with me, but I really don't want any of the Freedom Fighters baggage in the games.

-Erazor and Merlina are the best Villains in the franchise aside from Eggman, since they have a motive that makes sense.

-Sonic 4 Episode 1 and 2 aren't too bad as games on their own, and I don't think they would get nearly as much hate from fans if it wasn't called Sonic 4.

-Big the Cat isn't a terrible character, I just hate his gameplay in Sonic Adventure and he felt shoehorned into the game.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Chaos Incarnate

[Tara]

How is Cosmo's death scene out of place in the series? While I would like her to still be around very much so, I don't see how it is out of place to have a character be killed off in this series? Many kids series have death in them, disney is full of death to be honest, at least back in the day it did a lot more so than current day, but it is still around. Kids that can't handle death really need to learn to deal with it early and not be traumatized by it by overprotective parents.

Probably because Tails is forced to execute the "love of his life" or whatever with his own hands, which is especially unpleasant since he's only eight years old.  (Granted, he's mature for his age, but not that mature) - I don't know if I'd say it was out of place for that particular series, since Sonic X sort of went for the SA2 vibe throughout most of the series, but for a show meant for young children, it's pretty unsettling.  The fact that it seems to come sort of out of left field and doesn't really enrich the characters in any way also just makes the scene come across as pointlessly morbid, in my opinion.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 At the end of the day, Sonic is still primarily bought by kids, and I think more than a few would be left rather unsettled by subject matter such as that compared to say, Mufasa or Bambi's mother dying, which is sad, but executed in a softened manner that is poignant rather than macabre.

No, and this is a double standard that is hypocritical to boot. How in the hell is this or this softened compared to this (or this specific scene that your putting attention towards)? Explain to me where the macabre is in SA2 that isn't present in the Bambi or Lion King?

 

Better yet, since we're on the subject, why don't we take a look at this scene from Kung Fu Panda 2, another series primarily for kids, and compare that with all of the above?

Edited November 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[E-122-Psi]

How is Cosmo's death scene out of place in the series? While I would like her to still be around very much so, I don't see how it is out of place to have a character be killed off in this series? Many kids series have death in them, disney is full of death to be honest, at least back in the day it did a lot more so than current day, but it is still around. Kids that can't handle death really need to learn to deal with it early and not be traumatized by it by overprotective parents.

Keep in the mind the execution of this, with a young kid not just dying, but actually having to get the trigger pulled by another, with the latter having a clear mental breakdown from the grief of this decision onscreen. The scenes of him just twitching lifeless from dispair and eventually screaming in agony over the trigger button are just out and out painful to watch in every way. If they weren't they would likely be badly implemented, but that doesn't mean they fit the context of the franchise anymore so. This isn't exposing kids to the concept of death, this is screaming the most extreme brutality and pain of it right in their faces.

 

Disney kills characters, but the execution is less explicit, they're done off onscreen or by the villain that gets their comeuppance in the end. There is little torture, graphic nature or mental distress, it is certainly poignant on many levels, but not to the point it ups the age rating of the film a few levels. Emotion and tragedy is not angst.

 

The only Disney film I felt was rather distressing was Pinocchio with the Coachman scene, and even that was less the scene itself and more the lack of an happy resolution the others have, with, much in the way of SA2, the bad guy getting their way and multiple innocents suffering horribly under their plans with no redemption. Granted I haven't seen The Hunchback Of Notre Dame that I have heard is quite up on the dark meter.

Edited November 12, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Diogenes]

Lost World is dark yes, but it also has its share of plot errors as well as you mentioned; a work being light or dark isn't immune to be bad, and I don't think a lighthearted work should be given a pass just on the premise that the audience isn't supposed to take it seriously. A poorly told story is a poorly told story, tone is irrelevant in this case because it and the quality of the writing are two separate entities.

I don't think any Sonic story has gotten a pass just for being a light story. But also, I don't think the game's tone has no effect on the perception of its failures.

If you want to write a story that's darker, more serious, and more complex, that's building a taller tower. And if your foundation is weak and the whole thing collapses, that's a hell of a disaster. The scenes you expected to be emotional, the twists you expected to be shocking, end up embarrassingly lame. You try to get the player invested in the story, and either you can't but the game keeps futilely trying, or you can but you lose their trust somewhere along the way. In either case I think that's a pretty big turn-off for a lot of people.

But if you're writing a lighter story, that's a more modest building. If that one falls, it doesn't fall quite so far. Maybe some of your jokes fall flat. Maybe your villain's kinda lame. But you're not asking for or relying on the player being as deeply invested. You're not breaking or failing to make the kind of bond that a more serious story requires. A lighter story can still be bad, it can still be bad in a lot of the same ways as a darker story, but if it is, you're not letting the audience fall so hard.