Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

I don't think any Sonic story has gotten a pass just for being a light story. But also, I don't think the game's tone has no effect on the perception of its failures.

If you want to write a story that's darker, more serious, and more complex, that's building a taller tower. And if your foundation is weak and the whole thing collapses, that's a hell of a disaster. The scenes you expected to be emotional, the twists you expected to be shocking, end up embarrassingly lame. You try to get the player invested in the story, and either you can't but the game keeps futilely trying, or you can but you lose their trust somewhere along the way. In either case I think that's a pretty big turn-off for a lot of people.

But if you're writing a lighter story, that's a more modest building. If that one falls, it doesn't fall quite so far. Maybe some of your jokes fall flat. Maybe your villain's kinda lame. But you're not asking for or relying on the player being as deeply invested. You're not breaking or failing to make the kind of bond that a more serious story requires. A lighter story can still be bad, it can still be bad in a lot of the same ways as a darker story, but if it is, you're not letting the audience fall so hard.

 

But at the end of the day, you're still left with a poorly constructed complex either way. Which was point I was making about how people seem to give a free pass for when something lighthearted isn't very good, but are very quick and vocal to call something out if its on the opposite spectrum.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Disney kills characters, but the execution is less explicit, they're done off onscreen or by the villain that gets their comeuppance in the end. There is little torture, graphic nature or mental distress, it is certainly poignant on many levels, but not to the point it ups the age rating of the film a few levels.

Little Mermaid, Return of Jafar, Atlantis, and Hunchback of Notre Dame would like to have a serious word with you.

Edited November 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[E-122-Psi]

But at the end of the day, you're still left with a poorly constructed complex either way. Which was point I was making about how people seem to give a free pass for when something lighthearted isn't very good, but are very quick and vocal to call something out if its on the opposite spectrum.

We don't give it a free pass, we say it's bad, but only in proportion to what the story asked in the first place. I DIDN'T like Colors script at all, just random self referential nonsense, but it wasn't trying to play itself as a deep investing story, but just a quick laugh. It failed at that, and I critique it for that, and nothing else. Next Gen tried to be this deep epic blockbuster that is taken seriously, and I critique it for all of that.

[Tornado]

How is Cosmo's death scene out of place in the series?

 

Half of the time (and by "half" I mean "almost always") Sonic X was written to such a blatantly low common denominator that the fact that it suddenly started trying to be taken seriously about halfway through the final season just made the times it went all in on it (Cosmo's death in particular, but not exclusively) all the more jarring. Sonic X wasn't a Disney movie, where it was designed to appeal to all ages. Even the "darker" aspects of the games it directly adapted were specifically redone to dumb everything down and force poorly conceived humor in (in both the original and the dub) for the Saturday morning set.

It's the equivalent of if all of the Land Before Time sequels came first, and then the first movie was the last one instead.

[E-122-Psi]

Little Mermaid, Return of Jafar, Atlantis, and Hunchback of Notre Dame would like to have a serious word with you.

Most of the unsettling deaths you mentioned there concern the villains, which don't have the same emotion or stress value and are to some degree intended to be scary. There's a difference between watching a complete monster villain get disintegrated and a sweet little girl we've the spent the story pitying getting the same fate. It can be unsettling, but I think a kid would be less invested in seeing evil get their comeuppance.

 

There's also a lot more paranoia fuel in SA2, since the fantasy aspects are far more subtle. Governments in real life can use innocents as scapegoats and can get away with massacring them to save their own faces. That's one of the truly creepy undertones of the story.

Edited November 12, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Diogenes]

But at the end of the day, you're still left with a poorly constructed complex either way. Which was point I was making about how people seem to give a free pass for when something lighthearted isn't very good, but are very quick and vocal to call something out if its on the opposite spectrum.

Again, what's been given a free pass? We rag on Heroes, we rag on Colors, we rag on Generations, we rag on SLoW. We may complain less about some of these games, but that's not at all the same as giving them a free pass. And if we complain about the lighter stories less, it's because we feel they didn't fail as hard as other stories did.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Most of the unsettling deaths you mentioned there concern the villains, which don't have the same emotion or stress value and are to some degree intended to be scary. There's a difference between watching a complete monster villain get disintegrated and a sweet little girl we've the spent the story pitying getting the same fate.

Okay, so you're changing your point from simply "Characters" to "Sweet Little Girls"?

 

Say hello to Hercules' Meg in addition to Notre Dame's Esmerelda, then.

 

We can do this all day, outside of Disney as well.

 

 

There's also a lot more paranoia fuel in SA2, since the fantasy aspects are far more subtle. Governments in real life can use innocents as scapegoats and can get away with massacring them to save their own faces. That's one of the truly creepy undertones of the story.

Sounds no different from Hunchback of Notre Dame with it's heavy use of religion and racism.

Edited November 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Jet Prower]

Look, believe me, I didn't like the scene when it was brought about, since I thought they should stay together yes. I know it was a bit much to have to kill the love of your life as the ultimate sacrifice. Believe me, I was very sad when the scene came out. I was wondering how could the creators do something like that to him. I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to believe here is all.

 

The only thing I ever thought about it was yes the characters are a bit young in the scene for it to all be taking place with, though Mobians do tend to be a bit more mature for their ages.

 

Hearing people suddenly say the scene shouldn't be there is just surprising to me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Don't see how considering how low people think of Sonic X. Then again, I wasn't too bothered because of how low everything else was, so I simply flowed with it.

[Tara]

Little Mermaid, Return of Jafar, Atlantis, and Hunchback of Notre Dame would like to have a serious word with you.

Add The Fox and the Hound to that list, as well.  In that movie, not only is the lead protagonist's mother killed at the very beginning of the movie, but Todd must also face separation from his best friend, who then turns against him towards the latter half of the movie, and then is forced to re-adapt to life in the wild as his motherly figure (lovingly) abandons him.  They brighten the tone a bit with the pop music and stuff, but at the end of the day, justice is never served and there's no overlying message of right vs. wrong or good vs. evil.  It's just about the tragic life (and death in the book) of an orphaned fox, and not much else.

 

If that isn't dark and brutal, I don't know what is.

[Jet Prower]

Add The Fox and the Hound to that list, as well.  In that movie, not only is the lead protagonist's mother killed at the very beginning of the movie, but Todd must also face separation from his best friend, who then turns against him towards the latter half of the movie, and then is forced to re-adapt to life in the wild as his motherly figure (lovingly) abandons him.  They brighten the tone a bit with the pop music and stuff, but at the end of the day, justice is never served and there's no overlying message of right vs. wrong or good vs. evil.  It's just about the tragic life (and death in the book) of an orphaned fox, and not much else.

 

If that isn't dark and brutal, I don't know what is.

 

Wait, in the book version of that movie, they actually kill him in the end? o.O

[Tara]

Wait, in the book version of that movie, they actually kill him in the end? o.O

50-year-old spoilers.

 

He dies of exhaustion after a lengthy run while being pursued by Copper and the hunter.

[Jet Prower]

He dies of exhaustion after a lengthy run while being pursued by Copper and the hunter.

 

Yeah, that's a bit on the morbid side. Going through that entire story, assuming the book is at least similar in most other areas as the movie I saw  when younger was, then yeah, that is definitely on the super dark side.

[Tara]

To be fair, Disney movies are always considerably lighter than the books that inspire them, and almost always omit instances where the protagonist either dies or succumbs to an otherwise tragic fate.

[Jet Prower]

To be fair, Disney movies are always considerably lighter than the books that inspire them, and almost always omit instances where the protagonist either dies or succumbs to an otherwise tragic fate.

 

I'm sure yeah. With many kids movies, the main protagonist is usually off limits for things like that in kids movies. Books tend to be a lot darker than movies to begin with anyway. It seems a lot easier to describe a lot more details in a thick book than it is in a movie that has a limit run time.

[Wraith]

I feel like the reasons the darker games in the series get more shit than the lighter ones are pretty obvious. Since Shadow and 06 are being brought forth as examples, let's put SA2 aside for a second and point out that both of those are generally agreed to be shittastic games. People are generally less forgiving of games that don't play very well. Especially in a platformer series like this one.

 

Colors and Generations, at least, are generally looked upon fondly. Of course they're going to catch less shit for doing something wrong if the stuff they did right outweighs it.

 

Now let's consider just how offensive and audacious Shadow and 06's stories and overall tone are. Darker tones in children's media is perfectly fine, and in fact I think SA1 handled the darker aspects of it's story rather well. There is a breaking point, however. There's a such thing as trying to be dark and edgy and shit just for the sake of it. 06 kills sonic in the most over the top and flat out stupid way possible just to say they killed Sonic, among other things. Shadow is a desperate outcry for the dudebro crowd filled with plot holes and contradictions with a tone that is probably damn near the exact opposite as the one they started out with. Nobody is going to excuse that. You could argue that these games's stories have "effort" or "drive that Colors and Generations are somehow lacking(IMO that's bullshit. but we'll save that for another post.) but how much effort you put into something means basically nothing if the end product turns out badly. Then, it becomes misguided, wasted effort. 

 

In comparison, Colors having some lame lines and Generations being short on cutscenes is pretty inoffensive. 

 

That's why the lighter hearted works "get a pass" compared to the darker ones. 

[Nepenthe]

The reasons are indeed fairly obvious for why we're still dealing of the fallout of an eight and a seven-year old game respectively. But the thing is, this is of little relevance to the overall discussion about the perceived problems and ennui of the stories we're getting now as a result of this steadfast tread into cartoony lightheartedness, and whether or not "seriousness" has been scapegoated to the point that a necessary component of a proper Sonic story has been poisoned. They are irrelevant simply because the extent of the direction of those two older games is something Sega will never do again. So yeah, ShtH and Sonic 06 were shit for all the reasons in the world. But why should I or anyone else give a damn about them in 2013?
 

Add The Fox and the Hound to that list, as well.  In that movie, not only is the lead protagonist's mother killed at the very beginning of the movie, but Todd must also face separation from his best friend, who then turns against him towards the latter half of the movie, and then is forced to re-adapt to life in the wild as his motherly figure (lovingly) abandons him.  They brighten the tone a bit with the pop music and stuff, but at the end of the day, justice is never served and there's no overlying message of right vs. wrong or good vs. evil.  It's just about the tragic life (and death in the book) of an orphaned fox, and not much else.
 
If that isn't dark and brutal, I don't know what is.

 
I just wanted to point out in the movie that justice is served. Even though Tod and Copper have fallen into their respective roles as prey and predator, they remember the respect they were once able to give one another; this culminates in Copper shielding Tod from a potential shotgun blast from his owner after being saved by him from a bear attack. They're still friends, and they end the feud on excellent terms, and that is all the justice that is needed after their fallout. The book's really morbid, sure, and the movie isn't typical Disney, but it's far more sweet than bitter.

[Vertekins]

I'd be among the last people to defend them but at the very least, I have to admit that Shadow and '06 despite having fundamental issues writing-wise at least tried to have twists and some level of progression.

 

Colours and Gens fail to exhibit that in any interesting way.

 

From what I've seen, people aren't entirely down with the uninvolved bore-fests that the stories have become as of Colours (Lost World exempt but even that has some issues), not demanding pretentiously 'complex' plots. And I can't say I blame 'em.

[Wraith]

My post was more directed towards Azure Yakuzu's thought that people are more likely to call out Shadow and 06 because of some bias towards darker elements. While that bias does exist in this fanbase in SOME ways, that's hardly why those two are called out on their bullshit more often than, say , Colors and Generations. 

[Jet Prower]

I would tend to agree that while 06 and Shadow may not be the greatest games around, but I did tend to think they at least had better stories than Generations and Colors. Sega just seems so scared now to try and go for deeper stories due to the backlash of previous titles that they keep playing it too safe I think. Lost World I think was a bit of a step up from the last two games in that department definitely. It was still in a bit of light tone, but it did deliver some darkness in a mild dose towards the end.

[Nepenthe]

I would imagine they're hardly called out for that as often because there's far more problems with them- even within the overall story- than just the tone itself. However, in the context of a discussion concerning tone, there is a stronger bias against any "seriousness" or "darkness," which is a double-edge sword. We didn't need to do a Generations to get away from the other end of the spectrum. I mean, pick your poison.

[Diogenes]

So yeah, ShtH and Sonic 06 were shit for all the reasons in the world. But why should I or anyone else give a damn about them in 2013?

Well, they're still some of people's most recent memories of what happens when Sonic tries to be Very Serious. That perception isn't going to be erased unless we get a game that's serious and good, but Sonic Team is understandably wary of trying that because of how poorly it went back then; if the demand isn't there, it's an unnecessary risk.

[Vertekins]

And yet the Storybook games can strike a fair balance between dark and light and yet a leaf is hardly ever taken out of their books?

 

As far as I'm concerned, Sonic Team nailed it fairly well there. And it's a shame we don't get game stories as balanced as those games' stories were any more.

[Nepenthe]

But the demand is never going to be there unless Sonic Team takes the initiative of making that risk. So basically that means we're stuck with this shit from now until God knows when.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

But the demand is never going to be there unless Sonic Team takes the initiative of making that risk. So basically that means we're stuck with this shit from now until God knows when.

50 years later...

 

SEGA (assuming they aren't gone): We are finally including playable Knuckles and Tails!

Old man Sonic fan: BOO! REMEMBER SONIC 06! REMEMBER IT AND LISTEN TO M-HACK HACK HACK!

*Pan out to the same thing across the world since we've discovered the technology to preserve people in tubes to extend their lives, thus millions of people who can't let go of Sonic 06 are kept alive*