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Hedgehog Engine - To Stay or Go


Faseeh

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SEGA would have to pay to use Unreal Engine 4 too. With SEGA using their own engine, they don't have to pay excessive licenses fees.

I wonder if anyone has an in-depth look at comparing engines. I know many of us can say "that engine this or that" but wouldn't SEGA know to use those engines if they were really indeed more practical? I feel like we're missing some key points.

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Does the Unreal Engine 4 have the same problems with quick-loading high detail textures as the first two versions did?

Because that would make it basically useless to Sega.

UE4 hasn't been licensed to any game or console as of yet - the only game that's using it is Epic's own game FortNite which still has some ways to go.

I'd like to think the matter isn't so much that the games need a licensed engine to work - it's just that the Hedgehog Engine is rather unwieldy and weakly constructed for it to have much of a lasting impact. Sonic Colors managed to make a lasting impact on a ton of people with just an internal engine. Keep it basic.

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Thinking about it, what was the point of the Hedgehog Engine again?

An in-house engine, capable of global illumination and loading maps during gameplay with the potential to be licensed out to third parties.

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That depends on what answer you are looking for. From the technical side of things, the OP does a very good job explaining it.

There's a lot more to it than that, though. The Hedgehog Engine was also put together to battle perception. STH '06 used all of this licenced technology, and played up what it could do, and etc. Game engines and physics engines and various other buzzwords abound. And STH '06 ended up as it did. None of that was because of what it used to do it, but there were people who were automatically equating, say, HAVOK with "Bad." The Hedgehog Engine was designed and played up while Unleashed was in development to show that Sonic Team still had the technical competence to do such things by themselves, even after such a massive setback as STH '06. And the results, at least the cherry picked results we were shown, did a good job speaking for themselves in that regard.

Edited by Tornado
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If they ditch it for an engine that's better optimized yet makes it look just as good or better, then yes I'm up for that.

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I personally feel they should perhaps take another shot at designing an awesome Graphics Engine (Call it The Hedgehog Engine II, because its a good name given its principle application) and perhaps even tackle their own proprietary Physics Engine.

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I don't really see the point in getting rid of it, or how it's hindering the gameplay in anyway. Isn't the HE a lighting engine, and not a gameplay one? Meaning any gameplay changes can be made without using a different engine entirely?

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I don't really see the point in getting rid of it, or how it's hindering the gameplay in anyway. Isn't the HE a lighting engine, and not a gameplay one? Meaning any gameplay changes can be made without using a different engine entirely?

The Hedgehog Engine is integral to the games at this point. The stages can only be as fast and large as they are with an engine like the HE that is able to load things during gameplay. This keeps the loading times short too.

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I don't really see the point in getting rid of it, or how it's hindering the gameplay in anyway. Isn't the HE a lighting engine, and not a gameplay one? Meaning any gameplay changes can be made without using a different engine entirely?

The problem is that its horribly inefficient. Its like a 12-cylinder engine producing only 50 Horsepower. There are much more efficient engines out there.

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Normally I'd just say, it makes pretty games so why not, but considering the criticism that's come up and the fact that I really don't know shit about renderers and such, I think I'll defer to you guys on this one.

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I can't say I really know how efficiently it uses the hardware it's running on but there's one thing that irritates me about it. I know it loads the next section of a level once you pass a specific point which reduces loading screens and works pretty well as long as you don't go breaking the stage too much. However, once you reach the next section of the level, you can't return to the previous section. And what irritates me about this is that sometimes they just place an invisible wall behind you which prevents you from going back. There was this one time when I was trying to collect some rings and I accidentally boosted past a pack of rings. I tried to go back and I clearly saw the rings but an invisible wall had just appeared behind me, blocking my way. Seriously! How hard can it be to design a level in such a manner that you can see where this point of no return is? They could place a small drop or a skydiving section there so I could see that once I reach that point I really can't go back. Bloody idiots... >.>

Anyway, it has more to do with level design anyway so I don't know if this is the proper topic for this. I just wish that if they continue to use the Hedgehog Engine they would just drop the invisible walls and put a bit more thought into the level design.

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I can't say I really know how efficiently it uses the hardware it's running on but there's one thing that irritates me about it. I know it loads the next section of a level once you pass a specific point which reduces loading screens and works pretty well as long as you don't go breaking the stage too much. However, once you reach the next section of the level, you can't return to the previous section. And what irritates me about this is that sometimes they just place an invisible wall behind you which prevents you from going back. There was this one time when I was trying to collect some rings and I accidentally boosted past a pack of rings. I tried to go back and I clearly saw the rings but an invisible wall had just appeared behind me, blocking my way. Seriously! How hard can it be to design a level in such a manner that you can see where this point of no return is? They could place a small drop or a skydiving section there so I could see that once I reach that point I really can't go back. Bloody idiots... >.>

Anyway, it has more to do with level design anyway so I don't know if this is the proper topic for this. I just wish that if they continue to use the Hedgehog Engine they would just drop the invisible walls and put a bit more thought into the level design.

No, you're on topic. Much like the current gameplay is designed around the engine, the level design similarly needs to be designed around it to use it effectively. What they are likely doing is precacheing level assets, so funneling you in one direction allows the engine to do so effectively without you noticing (whereas if you went the opposite direction intended it would probably throw up a ton of rendering errors because it wasn't expecting you to).

It's a measure of engine efficiency that they need to design the levels in such a way to keep it working right.

Edited by Tornado
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No way, keep the hedgehog engine and use the unleashed renderer for 60 fps of awsome sonic unleashed is massively fast, that's how I want my engine, not sonic colors slow. Oh and to those saying use UE4 look at these:

Yes it's a fan engine, but those physics...then again I never played this anyways.

Edited by The Ultimate Lifeform
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The problem is that its horribly inefficient. Its like a 12-cylinder engine producing only 50 Horsepower. There are much more efficient engines out there.

The Hedgehog Engine is integral to the games at this point. The stages can only be as fast and large as they are with an engine like the HE that is able to load things during gameplay. This keeps the loading times short too.

Are we talkin if they decided to continue with this gaming style? Because if they decide to change to something less focused on speed in the next game, then there's not point in getting rid of it right?

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Even if they continue the same gameplay, they can still benefit from using another engine. Better performance without the visual tradeoff, for example. In that case, though, it's just a matter of whether or not the benefit justifies the increased cost.

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I'm no expert in game engine design, graphics programming or hardware abstraction related stuff that goes along with it, but can't they take some of the code and algorithms that they used for the HE and integrate them into a newer engine with better features? Even if they can't or don't want to build on top of the hedgehog engine, I'm sure they can use reuse some of the components that the programmed for it (like the global illumination math, etc.)

If they don't continue to use the hedgehog engine, they could integrate parts of it that they already coded into a new engine, which is easier than redoing absolutely everything from scratch.

Or am I wrong about this?

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I say stay. Like some members pointed, the HE is obsolete, but I guess (guessing, forgive me if I'm wrong!) that it was made to match the high speed of the game. Will the CryEngine 3 or the UE4 load something better than the HE, yes, but at the same speed as Sonic? I don't know. If not, they will have to choice between leaving the Unleashed gameplay or the HE.

Edited by Jango
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I'm no expert in game engine design, graphics programming or hardware abstraction related stuff that goes along with it, but can't they take some of the code and algorithms that they used for the HE and integrate them into a newer engine with better features? Even if they can't or don't want to build on top of the hedgehog engine, I'm sure they can use reuse some of the components that the programmed for it (like the global illumination math, etc.)

If they don't continue to use the hedgehog engine, they could integrate parts of it that they already coded into a new engine, which is easier than redoing absolutely everything from scratch.

Or am I wrong about this?

That depends what they want to achieve with the new system. Halo 4 showed that it is possible to have a stable frame rate, high draw distance, realistic grass and lighting with fast load times and the same 'load the stage in chunks method.' All of this while still looking better than the Hedgehog Engine. What makes it difficult for Sonic Team though? When you have a character that can BOOOOST any time he wants it's difficult to code up an algorithm that can handle loading level data so quickly while still looking pretty.

Edited by GenesisCodeX
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I'm surprised how no one thought of console processors and RAM counts compared to PC's yet.

That's probably one of the biggest factors developers have to consider when it comes to rendering and level design--hell, RAM is important, period.

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I'm surprised how no one thought of console processors and RAM counts compared to PC's yet.

That's probably one of the biggest factors developers have to consider when it comes to rendering and level design--hell, RAM is important, period.

It's already been mentioned that Generations is able to run far better on PC than consoles. But the problem is, it should be running better on consoles, but can't because the HE isn't well optimised or particularly exceptional regardless.

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I wish they'd focus mainly on making sonic's physics engine exceptionally detailed, so that just moving him around an environment is fun in itself. Instead of having miles of rendered scenery in the background that takes up space. I'd rather have skyboxes for the backgrounds. That would save a lot of memory and maybe the framerate and collision would be better.

I'd also love to see sonic looking exactly like he would in the 2D artwork thru newer cel shading. And the environments being non-celshaded. Nice contrasting stuff. Like Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

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People say "use this engine" or "use that engine" while others go "can that engine keep up with Sonic speeds" so... could someone do a basic test, mod a game using one of these engines and make a First Person Shooter go Sonic-speed, see if the game would keep up?

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No. An engine as it is used in an FPS may not be set up in a way that would make it ideal for a Sonic game. Look up, say, the Quake III Engine. Some of those play drastically different, because it isn't a matter of just porting assets. The engine needs to be tweaked for the situation.

The only reason some are saying that certain engines are better than others is because some engines do have problems with things that would need to be "fixed" if Sonic Team licenced them so they would be suitable, completely defeating the point when there are other options available.

Edited by Tornado
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