Hedgehog Engine - To Stay or Go

[Soleanna's Blue Wind]

I really like the global illumination look Unleashed and Generations have, but I wouldn't mind them creating a new lighting engine that allows full 60FPS frame rate and maybe some enhanced motion blur. But if it compromises the graphics too much then I think they should stick with the Hedgehog Engine.

[Wraith]

Indeed. And I think they did a very good job of balancing graphics quality with performance within the hardware limitations. That small amount of pop-in you see would be much worse if they hadn't optimized it heavily. It looks good and it runs well (not without a couple of imperfections, but it still runs well).

Are you kidding? The PS3 version of Unleashed ran like a slideshow.

[Frogging101]

Are you kidding? The PS3 version of Unleashed ran like a slideshow.

Well I've never played Unleashed, but I play Generations and it runs really well.

[Soleanna's Blue Wind]

Well I've never played Unleashed, but I play Generations and it runs really well.

They optimised it a bit with Generations for improved frame rate. Also for some reason Sega sucks at PS3 coding. I've heard it's hard to develop for due to multithreading alongside the Cell processor, but still they suck pretty hard haha.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Soleanna's Blue Wind

[Sky]

Are you kidding? The PS3 version of Unleashed ran like a slideshow.

To be fair, some sections of the PS3 version ran at a very stable 60 FPS (Holoska village, Cool Edge Acts, Skyscraper Scamper Act 2, etc.).

[Blue Blood]

Well I've never played Unleashed, but I play Generations and it runs really well.

Generations is hugely dumbed down from Unleashed in the visual department. Not only does it use lots of low textures, it's missing a lot of visual effects too. When you compare Generations using it's native renderer and then the Unleashed renderer, you can see that the Unleashed one is much better.

Generations renderer:

Unleashed renderer:

Edited November 21, 2012 by Blue Blood

[Candescence]

HOO BOY HERE WE GO AGAIN.

Firstly, do you people even know how difficult and utterly time-consuming it is to build on, improve and optimize ANY kind of software that, by all rights, has an unstable and unoptimized foundation? The Hedgehog Engine has some very archaic stuff in there, especially the method it uses to load in parts of a level into RAM. And, as I said, the Hedgehog Engine is far more restrictive than the likes of Unreal Engine 3/4 and CryEngine3 in what you can actually do with it.

Which leads me to another point - the engine being able to keep up with Sonic's speed isn't an excuse. Any good engine that's designed to automatically load in stuff into RAM (especially open-world engines) can load things in fast enough, Sonic, even in Unleashed and Generations, is not THAT fast, any good engine can handle his speed automatically. And the big key word is 'automatically'. Good luck trying to make anything in the Hedgehog Engine that isn't a strictly linear level, the level loading is entirely manual.

Seriously, there is LITERALLY NO REASON for them to keep it. It would consume far more money and time than licensing an existing engine, and with little actual long and short-term benefit.

[Platinumb]

There is no reason to leave the Hedgehog engine unless something comes up, like someone willing to buy the rights for a price Sega cannot deny with their financial woes in this point of time.

[Uphex]

Well, it depends on if SEGA can handle making another engine really. Hedgehog engine is outdated and with nextgen around the corner it might start to show. Unless SEGA has enough money it's best to just stick to the current engine, because it still looks great and it could possibly run at 60 frames on next-gen.

[Platinumb]

I wouldn't be surprised if it did run 60 frames. Unleashed did (but poorly) and it looked visually good.

I think 60 frames should be a standard.

[Scar]

@Masaru

Would it be worth it to build another one and call it the Hedgehog Engine II (It has a nice ring to it)? Doesn't necessarily need to be one made for licencing, just a proprietary one....with a cool name.

[Candescence]

@Masaru

Would it be worth it to build another one and call it the Hedgehog Engine II (It has a nice ring to it)? Doesn't necessarily need to be one made for licencing, just a proprietary one....with a cool name.

Nope.

There's a reason why there are licensed engines out there - it's far, far cheaper and far less time-consuming to use one than making your own. Once you know how it works (and any good engine has a good learning curve), you can immediately start building a game. Making your own engine is only really viable if you genuinely know what you're doing and you believe you have to implement features that other engines simply don't have.

[Milo]

Bumping this topic in light of Lost World's use of the Hedgehog Engine (though honestly, this should had been brought up back last year then around the time that game was relevant) and Boom's use of a new engine entirely.

Lost World, running on a second variation of the Hedgehog Engine, is one of the first Sonic games (in recent memory) to run (in terms of gameplay, anyway) at 60 fps (compared to fellow Hedgehog Engine-running Sonic games Unleashed and Generations, which both ran at 30 fps on consoles). This technical achievement, according to interviews, was done by going for an more stylized artstyle and and more simplified graphics/textures, in comparison to the photo-surrealistic artstyle/more detailed graphics/textures seen in Unleashed and Generations. Though people have considered the end result pleasing, others, in addition to preferring the detailed artstyle and graphical fidelity of Unleashed and Generations, have argued that the fact the engine needed to stripped back even further shows even more how obsolete the Hedgehog Engine is (Smoovies "Hey, Iizuka King! Why'd you take our Hedgehog Engine?" thread).

 

Quote

 

Boom, in comparison, is one of the first Wii U (and Sonic!) games to use the third iteration of CryEngine. In comparison to Lost World's simpler artstyle, Boom also uses more detailed graphics and visuals, albeit in a artstyle that is unlike that of Unleashed and Generations. Though people have said the lighting and character models (from the first alpha build shown) look poor, the environments have generally gotten positive remarks. New pictures of the latest build also feature character models that are been said to look better than the ones from the former build.

So do you still think the Hedgehog Engine should be continued? If so, should Sonic Team go back to the detailed visuals and artstyle of the Unleashed era, or continue Lost World's approach of simplified artstyles to achieve the much-sought "60 fps" performance target? Or do you think Sonic Team should take note of Boom developer Big Red Button's use of the Cry Engine 3 and likewise use it for future Sonic games (especially if the rumor of Sonic Team having prototypes of new gameplay engines different from Lost World and the Unleashed era are to be believed)? What are your thoughts?

Edited January 11, 2016 by Gabe
Fixed image / thread link errors

[Chaos Incarnate]

I don't really care anymore, honestly.

 

The Hedgehog engine obviously made Sonic titles look breathtakingly beautiful, and I still think Unleashed looks ahead of its time for a game released in 2008 (obviously the best looking Sonic game period).

 

But at the same time, Sonic is moving forward onto next gen consoles, so the graphical fidelity will clearly be kicked up a notch. Boom really isn't looking all that impressive to me when I see the game in action, but then again, we haven't really seen enough environments at the same time. When Sonic inevitably shows up on the PS4 and Xbox One, we can see just how capable his titles will look from a visual standpoint without The Hedgehog Engine.

[azoo]

It doesn't matter if they go back to the "Hedgehog Engine" or not.

 

As very impressive as it was back in 2008 with how amazing it made Unleashed look compared to other games in the mid-to-late 7th generation, it's aged significantly and is far outdated (it also was apparently poorly optimised, or at least not well enough to be wanted for use by other companies).

 

Since they can pull off all the same stuff in a better engine that I'm sure is less bloated and can manage much more, there might as well be a "Hedgehog Engine 2.0" built from the bottom-up by now instead of just sticking with it. I wouldn't be surprised if they already have started on that, with the new next-gen Sonic coming up and all.

[KingIgort]

Lost World, running on a second variation of the Hedgehog Engine, is one of the first Sonic games (in recent memory) to run (in terms of gameplay, anyway) at 60 fps (compared to fellow Hedgehog Engine-running Sonic games Unleashed and Generations, which both ran at 30 fps).

 

I'm awful at this technical kind of stuff, but can't Generations run at 60fps on PC? Does the issue then become one of hardware and not software? As in, the 360 and PS3 theoretically weren't powerful enough, while the WiiU is, to run the engine consistently at 60fps?

 

Again, forgive my ignorance, I'm ridiculously bad at this stuff, was just curious.

[Milo]

I'm awful at this technical kind of stuff, but can't Generations run at 60fps on PC? Does the issue then become one of hardware and not software? As in, the 360 and PS3 theoretically weren't powerful enough, while the WiiU is, to run the engine consistently at 60fps?

 

Again, forgive my ignorance, I'm ridiculously bad at this stuff, was just curious.

 

I was generally referring to consoles when I said the games ran at 30 fps, I do think the PC version can run the game at 60 fps (though I think it needs to be optimized first in order to do so, I could be wrong though). I should go clarify that in my post.

[Willsy]

While I prefer Unleashed's art style, if we really have to have something like Lost World again I don't mind. Though I think they should push the graphics a little further in the next game while still maintaining 60fps.

Do they really need to keep the HE though? Given the power if the new consoles, I don't think it's really needed.

[KingIgort]

I was generally referring to consoles when I said the games ran at 30 fps, I do think the PC version can run the game at 60 fps (though I think it needs to be optimized first in order to do so, I could be wrong though). I should go clarify that in my post.

 

Doesn't really answer my question. If Generations (and Unleashed, I'm not sure) CAN run at 60fps, just not on the 360 and/or PS3, the problem isn't the Hedgehog Engine, it's the hardware, right?

[Diogenes]

If the software is inefficient, better hardware is only going to help it compete with last year's well-written software; it's inevitably going to fall behind compared to today's well-written software.

 

Anyway as far as keeping vs replacing the Hedgehog Engine...ultimately, I don't really care. As long as whatever they use is competent enough, the art style is going to make way more of a difference to me. Graphical improvements get smaller and smaller every year, and it's not as if this series needs to chase after photorealism. Making a game look bold and unique like SLoW matters a lot more to me than how many rays you're tracing or how many polygons make up Sonic's ass.

[NikoS]

I Think it should not only stay, but it could be aprimored, like "Hedgehog Engine v.2.0" or something, it makes everything appears so real, i would love to see it in a Sonic Adventure 3, or even Unleashed 2, but returning to this topic, yes, it should stay.

sorry, it´s not aprimored, it´s enhanced

my english it´s not perfect yet, but it´s the best i havve now . Sorry about that guys

[TheLaw34]

No it shouldnt.

Ignoring whatever it would cost sega in terms of liscensing anything the would do in the hedgehog engine would look better on a different one. THey would be using the same amount of effort to get better results which gives us better games in terms of both graphics and gameplay.

[Salem the Engineer]

I think it should stay. At least it's given Sonic an official model so they won't always have to change it.

 

Not to mention we've been getting good games out of it such as Sonic Unleashed (Which I would've considered it the TRUE return of Sonic if they had just excluded the Werehog stages. But the Sonic stages are awesome.), Sonic Generations, and Sonic Lost World.

 

So please don't get rid of it

[Kidd Ryze]

Honestly, I would want to see a mixture of the Adventure formula and the Hedgehog engine. For example, the mach-speed sections in Sonic 06. There can be a regular stage using the Adventure formula, then it can switch to the Hedgehog engine for a second act. This can really work with Sonic Adventure 3, using both engines for Sonic's gameplay. 

[Blacklightning]

...the hedgehog engine is a graphics engine, not a gameplay engine. It is completely irrelevent to what actually makes boost gameplay tick.

 

Even besides that, completely changing the very basics of the gameplay between acts is kind of a stupid idea. While it's not quite genre roulette, it shares many of the same problems - it scatters focus in all areas of design and forces a dual learning curve for a pair of gameplay styles that have literally not a single excuse to be a single gameplay style. And even as a pandering device it just doesn't work because fans of one style are probably not going to be fans of the other, and they'll still have to put up with half a game they don't like to get to the half that they do. It's self-defeating and self-contradicting design right to the core, and it's a line of thinking that represents basically everything wrong with Sonic games between SA1 and Unleashed, and even some later games still haven't gotten over it either.