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Your Unanswered Sonic Questions

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4 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

My reason is there's an NPC in Station Square who apparently makes regular visits to the area, and in order for him to do that Ice Cap must be somewhere on the ground.

Well, maybe.

Is it possible that, by this point in time, Angel Island is well-known enough that some people just fly there?

I know it sounds like a reach, but I'm just trying to reconcile these things and make them both make sense.

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6 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

My reason is there's an NPC in Station Square who apparently makes regular visits to the area, and in order for him to do that Ice Cap must be somewhere on the ground.

Pretty sure more than one snowy mountain is allowed to exist.

And if you don't buy that, we could pretend the crevasse Sonic jumps to escape the avalanche is the border between Angel Island's Ice Cap and an unnamed snowy mountain on the mainland and they just happened to line up when the island fell.

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13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

When the game begins, he's been allies with Eggman for some months.  

Days, not months.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

No, the first document states out right that Angel Island's existence prior to S3&K was a secret, and that Knuckles is the exclusive protector of this secret.  If there's a whole city of other people on the Island there's a whole city of other people who know the secret.  There's no way to reconcile that idea with what the document says.

Like I said, Wakanda.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

The sentence pretty much loses it's meaning if there are any inhabitants on the Island who have been around as long as Knuckles has been guardian, as any of them would be able to answer the questions he's agonizing over.

Not necessarily. The inhabitants don't have to be NEAR Knuckles, we can see clear as day that no one else is around where the Master Emerald alter is located. Angel Island is as large as a continent with its many different geographic locations and mountain ranges.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Does he go snowboarding down a small hill instead?  It's clearly meant to allude to the boarding segment in Ice Cap.

Except he doesn't go to Angel Island which is where the entrance to Ice Cap is...and Ice Cap itself.

He's referring to a different place completely unrelated to Sonic's destination. He's probably headed to Ice Mountain, which is different from Ice Cap in that it's not on Angel Island.

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13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Works for me.

Ice Cap is on Angel Island.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

It doesn't look like S3&K's location at all.

It's almost as if the two games have different art styles.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

That version of Ice Cap Zone consisted entirely of ice structures and crystal prism like objects, without any buildings or wooden fences anywhere in sight.  

It's almost as if the two games have different art styles.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

If they are really the same location why does the one in SA show signs of habitation while the one in S3&K does not?

Let's just ignore how large this location is.

YrlKN7g.png

And how Sonic travels to a part of Ice Cap that's surrounded by glaciers.

OeP6tmv.png

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

 hate to break it to you but Sonic Retro is a fanmade website and there is no citation for those two statements.

No shit? Like I said, what we know about Ice Cap is that it takes place on Angel Island and there's no reason to assume otherwise when the games map shows the entrance to be on Angel Island like one would expect.

bnTxgrn.png

Angel Island is everything past the big wall with the wind tunnel in Mystic Ruins. Red Mountain, Ice Cap, and the fuckhuge non-explorable forest below the emerald shrine are all part of Angel Island.

Also the snowy mountain is only visible ON ANGEL ISLAND and not from any part of Mystic Ruins.

Sro5uaz.png

When you look at the map in the game and from the guide books, what direction everything is located at is pretty clear.

The cave entrance that's on the island is located west of the cave from Mystic Ruin. Look how far separated everything on Angel Island is from Mystic Ruin:

b5abqgs.png

Look how far east of the west cave the Ice Cap cave is. It's going in the same direction as Red Mountain which would mean they're close together.

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Mate, even the Sega Saturn Magazine that covered the game all the way to release and interviewed the devs have said that it's the same place.

R6awa9O.png

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The red header starts with "where's this scene!?" "The action field “Ice Cap” is a stage that was also available in the “Sonic 3”. This snowboard scene is said to be at the end of the stage ...?"

And then the vertical blurb on the right says this.

o6hF5fa.png

Everything points to SA's Ice Cap being the same bloody place as the one in 3.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Geothermal energy is free when you are the sole inhabitant of a volcanic island.

Those villages suggest that he isn't.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Nothing saying Eggman couldn't build the teleporter in Carnival Night.  

Except the same one exists in Ice Cap, and they function exactly the same way as the one's in Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary. The teleportation effects and sound effects are even the exact same.

Each one matching the design aesthetic as the location they're in.

Fs79pNh.gif

Cg7P8l5.gif

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

In other words, SEGA was being consistent when they wrote Knuckles' profile and created SA's version of Ice Cap, but they were being inconsistent when they devised every other aspect of Knuckles' character arc, because the latter contradicts your headcanon.

Just like how Ice Cap no longer takes place on Angel Island because it contradicts yours.

 

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

And if you don't buy that, we could pretend the crevasse Sonic jumps to escape the avalanche is the border between Angel Island's Ice Cap and an unnamed snowy mountain on the mainland and they just happened to line up when the island fell.

The apparent crevasse is connected via walls.

cFl8E3Y.png

Looks more like it just sorta exists.

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9 hours ago, DabigRG said:

"You can call me Knuckle" does rhyme better. Also, a mole?

That's not all, in the original Japanese version of the Sonic OVA, Knuckles is referred to as a mole, not an echidna. 

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In Sonic Battle, Sonic calls Knuckles a "spiky-headed mole". It's a play on the Japanese term for echidna, which literally translates as "needle-mole".

kdoeAj6.png

Quote

Ah, there it is.

Yep.

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15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Like I said, Wakanda.

The reality is that those documents never reference other inhabitants being on Angel Island because SEGA considered Knuckles the only one there.  That's why "Knuckles was born alone on Angel Island" instead of being born among Angel Island's non-Echidna population and why he "lived his life in solitude" instead of living in walking distance from a city full of other people.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Not necessarily. The inhabitants don't have to be NEAR Knuckles, we can see clear as day that no one else is around where the Master Emerald alter is located.

Literally the only way for Knuckles' dialogue in SA to make sense is if no one else is on the Island knows who he is or why the Island is in the sky and have gone their whole existence without ever communicating information to Knuckles that would meaningfully effect his actions.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

He's referring to a different place completely unrelated to Sonic's destination. He's probably headed to Ice Mountain

Never featured in Sonic Adventure. 

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

It's almost as if the two games have different art styles

Is it only a cosmetic difference or is it supposed to be a narrative decision that effects how we view Angel Island?  Because if it's the former then it's pretty meaningless for interpreting Knuckles' character and history.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Let's just ignore how large this location is.

YrlKN7g.png

And how Sonic travels to a part of Ice Cap that's surrounded by glaciers.

OeP6tmv.png

Given that you also have no problem ignoring how neither the visuals in Ice Cap nor external views of Angel Island in Sonic Adventure allow for the presence of an extensive mountain range or a body of water with glaciers floating in it to fit on the Island?  Makes perfect sense to ignore those details.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

what we know about Ice Cap is that it takes place on Angel Island and there's no reason to assume otherwise when the games map shows the entrance to be on Angel Island like one would expect.

The map only shows the entrance to Ice Cap. The map of the Mystic Ruins area also shows the entrance to Sand Hill being located right next to the cart that takes the player from the jungle to the train station.  Is the entire desert area between the train station and the jungle?  Does the cart zoom underground at high speed to cross the desert in a timely manner so the characters never notice the distance they've traveled?  Is that any more problematic than the characters accessing an area on the surface from a cave on Angel Island?  Or any of the other ways Sonic Adventure plays fast and loose with how in-game locations relate to each other?

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Mate, even the Sega Saturn Magazine that covered the game all the way to release and interviewed the devs have said that it's the same place.

We also know from other interviews that the developers worked on the action stages first and only determined their place in the story, what characters could access them, the order they are encountered, and their place in the adventure fields relatively late in the design process.  Which is why I have no problem supposing SA's Ice Cap was originally envisioned as a place on the surface.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

The red header starts with "where's this scene!?" "The action field “Ice Cap” is a stage that was also available in the “Sonic 3”. This snowboard scene is said to be at the end of the stage ...?"

And then the vertical blurb on the right says this.

o6hF5fa.png

Everything points to SA's Ice Cap being the same bloody place as the one in 3.

Thematically it is the same stage as the one in Sonic 3.  Which does not mean it is literally the same location as the original Ice Cap in a narrative sense, any more than the constant recycling of stages named "Green Hill" in games after Sonic 1 imply all of those games take place on South Island (witness Forces placing Green Hill in a landlocked location :P).

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Those villages suggest that he isn't.

Given how Knuckles doesn't know that the villages exist and they don't seem to know that Knuckles exists, and they have never impacted the story at all in dozens of instances where they logically should?  Not convinced.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Except the same one exists in Ice Cap, and they function exactly the same way as the one's in Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary.

They also function the same way as the teleporters Eggman built on the Egg Carrier, and the teleporters that connect the Chao Gardens.

The pad-shaped teleporters in Carnival Night and Ice Cap actually look more like the ones Eggman created, for that matter.

300px-SonicAdventure_EggCarrierWarp.png

The ones in Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary- those that have definitely always been on Angel Island- look rather different.

c6885fe23b1f793f4dca268f4e260490.jpg

 

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Just like how Ice Cap no longer takes place on Angel Island because it contradicts yours.

Nope. Knuckles being the sole inhabitant of Angel Island is canon, confirmed by multiple official statements from SEGA, not my head canon.

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I know the 06 game said tears of pain would make Iblis be freed from Elise, but I wonder...

Was Elise allowed near onions? Did Elise cry at her dad's funeral? Was Elise allowed near ultra hot sauce? Was Elise allowed near scary or sad movies? Come on, Sega, we need to know these things!

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6 hours ago, Yoko/葉子 said:

I know the 06 game said tears of pain would make Iblis be freed from Elise, but I wonder...

Was Elise allowed near onions? Did Elise cry at her dad's funeral? Was Elise allowed near ultra hot sauce? Was Elise allowed near scary or sad movies? Come on, Sega, we need to know these things!

I don't know about ...well most of that, but I think it's implied she soldiered through that stuff without really feeling enough. 

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3 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I've always interpreted "crying" in Elise's case to mean giving in to despair, like she did when Sonic died. Thus cutting an onion near her wouldn't have caused Iblis to be released.

Keep her away from Infinite then.

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I thought there was a thread about the next Sonic game/story and/or tone, but I guess I'll ask this here: Would you say that the "problem" with Sonic lately isn't style over substance so much as not going wholehog with the style?

Also, page 100 mfs!

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I would say that they don't even really have a style to go full hog with. The lack of direction (Iizuka's job to my knowledge) is so blatant and plain to see that it makes me wonder if there even is any vision anymore. Sure the IDW mandates might imply as such, but since SEGA and Iizuka have admitted to being shocked when something that will obviously work, works (Sonic Mania), I don't find the mandates to be more than just SEGA's way of keeping things static until they can either figure out what to do or potentially (unlikely as I hope it is) even sell off teh Sonic IP while it is still in a form they misguidedly believe to be marketable.

So yeah, I guess I agree. We can't really expect Sonic to have any substance when there isn't even a style to build the substance into. Conversely, they could always try looking at everything they have and actually using that as the basis of their substance and building the style they want on top of that. Either approach though requires either SEGA making up their mind or actually leaving Iizuka to his own devices for a change and actually seeing if he still has a marketable vision.

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Weird that this topic has been dead since I last posted, but I have a question that likely has no answer.

Considering Sonic is supposedly a world famous adventurer, why is that no comic or cartoon ever followed a road trip structure?

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15 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

...why is that no comic or cartoon ever followed a road trip structure?

The lack of direction most likely.

For a more serious response: Sonic being a globe-trotting adventurer isn't actually common knowledge and they haven't done a really good job at playing up that aspect of his character.

I'd call him more of a nomad really, that lines up more with how he's portrayed usually.

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5 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Weird that this topic has been dead since I last posted, but I have a question that likely has no answer.

Considering Sonic is supposedly a world famous adventurer, why is that no comic or cartoon ever followed a road trip structure?

The cartoons were episodic with only story either being a cohesive framework or a vague excuse. 

However, Archie technically did so a couple of times during the Hunt for Naugus and was going to do so again after the Shattered World Crisis and Genesis of a Hero.

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On 11/7/2019 at 10:25 AM, Sonic Fan J said:

Weird that this topic has been dead since I last posted, but I have a question that likely has no answer.

Considering Sonic is supposedly a world famous adventurer, why is that no comic or cartoon ever followed a road trip structure?

It's not an easy structure to build higher stakes into. It's better for a series of individual pieces than the large scale action adventures that define the series.

Even then, it's common to catch Sonic just wandering around in the comics in-between larger story arcs, especially nowadays. It's just never the structure for the entire thing because it's a little limiting.

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Admittedly as I usually enjoy character focused narratives it is probably easier for me to enjoy smaller stories as they can actually focus on something more than spectacle. Even in the big events like in SA2 and Unleashed some of my favorite moments in those games are the tiny moments between the characters. I guess though I can't ignore that it is the spectacle that sells, but spectacle alone is fairly shallow and is a part of what makes Sonic Unleashed one of my favorite games.

-----

Onto today's question.

So, if Classic and Modern are supposed to be different characters from different dimensions, timelines, what have you, can someone explain the latest Olympic game? For trying so hard to separate the two art styles, SEGA sure went in whole hog on showing Classic and Modern as the same character there. Do they even realize that they are undermining their own advertising with that move?

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4 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Admittedly as I usually enjoy character focused narratives it is probably easier for me to enjoy smaller stories as they can actually focus on something more than spectacle. Even in the big events like in SA2 and Unleashed some of my favorite moments in those games are the tiny moments between the characters. I guess though I can't ignore that it is the spectacle that sells, but spectacle alone is fairly shallow and is a part of what makes Sonic Unleashed one of my favorite games.

-----

Onto today's question.

So, if Classic and Modern are supposed to be different characters from different dimensions, timelines, what have you, can someone explain the latest Olympic game? For trying so hard to separate the two art styles, SEGA sure went in whole hog on showing Classic and Modern as the same character there. Do they even realize that they are undermining their own advertising with that move?

IMO, and this is just my headcanon, Classic Sonic is Past Sonic, even Ian Flynn is convinced of this. Hence, 1964 Olympics of the past, gave Sonic his old look back. Mania Sonic is Sonic from a different dimension, is he the same from Generations? Yes, because in Generations he was Past Sonic until the end… when he returned to Green Hill with the knowledge of the future, for some reason, it created the Mania "classic timeline" where the classics are canon and Mania and future classic games pick up from there, that's the in-universe answer, while in reality, in Generations SEGA meant it to be a one time thing with Past Sonic, nowadays they changed their mind, and will continue to use Classic Sonic in more games in a different timeline, so that's why Tails says "you're that Sonic from another dimension" and Sonic jokes and references Generations, he is that Sonic from Generations, but now he is from a different timeline. In the Modern timeline, classic games are canon as well, this is why stuff from Sonic CD is mentioned in the Olympics trivia as events from the past.

It's basically a retcon because they changed their mind about using Classic Sonic, but I gave my reasonable in-universe headcanon.

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22 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

IMO, and this is just my headcanon, Classic Sonic is Past Sonic, even Ian Flynn is convinced of this. Hence, 1964 Olympics of the past, gave Sonic his old look back. Mania Sonic is Sonic from a different dimension, is he the same from Generations? Yes, because in Generations he was Past Sonic until the end… when he returned to Green Hill with the knowledge of the future, for some reason, it created the Mania "classic timeline" where the classics are canon and Mania and future classic games pick up from there, that's the in-universe answer, while in reality, in Generations SEGA meant it to be a one time thing with Past Sonic, nowadays they changed their mind, and will continue to use Classic Sonic in more games in a different timeline, so that's why Tails says "you're that Sonic from another dimension" and Sonic jokes and references Generations, he is that Sonic from Generations, but now he is from a different timeline. In the Modern timeline, classic games are canon as well, this is why stuff from Sonic CD is mentioned in the Olympics trivia as events from the past.

It's basically a retcon because they changed their mind about using Classic Sonic, but I gave my reasonable in-universe headcanon.

My assumption is that Classic Eggman scrapped whatever schemes he had planned after Modern Eggman told him they don't work out. Thus in Mania he decided to go after the Phantom Ruby instead of unleashing Chaos as he did in Adventure. Otherwise, yeah, an Ocarina of Time scenario is the best way to make sense of it.

 

... The classic timeline is so fucked when the Black Arms arrive.

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5 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Admittedly as I usually enjoy character focused narratives it is probably easier for me to enjoy smaller stories as they can actually focus on something more than spectacle. Even in the big events like in SA2 and Unleashed some of my favorite moments in those games are the tiny moments between the characters. I guess though I can't ignore that it is the spectacle that sells, but spectacle alone is fairly shallow and is a part of what makes Sonic Unleashed one of my favorite games.

-----

Onto today's question.

So, if Classic and Modern are supposed to be different characters from different dimensions, timelines, what have you, can someone explain the latest Olympic game? For trying so hard to separate the two art styles, SEGA sure went in whole hog on showing Classic and Modern as the same character there. Do they even realize that they are undermining their own advertising with that move?

Alternate reality that just looks weird. 

1 hour ago, Tangled Jack said:

IMO, and this is just my headcanon, Classic Sonic is Past Sonic, even Ian Flynn is convinced of this. Hence, 1964 Olympics of the past, gave Sonic his old look back. Mania Sonic is Sonic from a different dimension, is he the same from Generations? Yes, because in Generations he was Past Sonic until the end… when he returned to Green Hill with the knowledge of the future, for some reason, it created the Mania "classic timeline" where the classics are canon and Mania and future classic games pick up from there, that's the in-universe answer, while in reality, in Generations SEGA meant it to be a one time thing with Past Sonic, nowadays they changed their mind, and will continue to use Classic Sonic in more games in a different timeline, so that's why Tails says "you're that Sonic from another dimension" and Sonic jokes and references Generations, he is that Sonic from Generations, but now he is from a different timeline. In the Modern timeline, classic games are canon as well, this is why stuff from Sonic CD is mentioned in the Olympics trivia as events from the past.

It's basically a retcon because they changed their mind about using Classic Sonic, but I gave my reasonable in-universe headcanon.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. 

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Because Eggman just decided to make Sonic look that way. I mean, they have canonically met classic Sonic and classic Eggman (even if the latter would need a retcon) so regardless of anything he knows how they look. Plus the game deliberately calls them by the monikers of "Pixel Sonic" and "Pixel Eggman" instead of classic. 

Also there's the fact Olympics aren't supposed to be taken as canon, so it's a marketing move. 

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Was the original intention of the Sonic X writers that their version of Shadow had, indeed, died at the end of the SA2 adaptation?

AD4-DDD0-E-3657-4134-A14-C-484204-DDCD6-

This shot from episode 50 (cut from the English dub) seems to very much imply that Shadow was dead and with Maria again.

I could see their logic in making that the case: Sonic X was supposed to end completely with episode 52, so there’d have been no harm in establishing Shadow as actually dead because “hey, it’s not like we’re ever going to revisit this canon”.

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18 minutes ago, Noodle Panda said:

Was the original intention of the Sonic X writers that their version of Shadow had, indeed, died at the end of the SA2 adaptation?

AD4-DDD0-E-3657-4134-A14-C-484204-DDCD6-

This shot from episode 50 (cut from the English dub) seems to very much imply that Shadow was dead and with Maria again.

I could see their logic in making that the case: Sonic X was supposed to end completely with episode 52, so there’d have been no harm in establishing Shadow as actually dead because “hey, it’s not like we’re ever going to revisit this canon”.

Wasn't that sorta the case with the games as well?

Anyway, probably yes. Knew there was a reason I didn't remember that shot.

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5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Wasn't that sorta the case with the games as well?

Anyway, probably yes. Knew there was a reason I didn't remember that shot.

It was. But this implication of him being dead came even after the games brought him back.

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