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@PengiYea, there's more to that when you read more below. Continuing where you left off:

Knuckle hurriedly leaped into the altar.
However, the Chaos Emeralds that should have been in there had vanished, without leaving a single fragment behind.

Knuckle went out of the altar dumbfounded.
Then, when he turned his feeble glance into the distance... He noticed something strange appearing near the lake.
When he saw that large, round object shaped like an egg, Knuckle felt a shiver along his spine.

"That large egg is the legendary dragon's..."
There's no mistaking that this egg must be the one that appears in the legend described in the Chaos Emerald's altar, the egg that will bring disaster to this island.

Knuckle patrolled the altar of seven Chaos Emeralds that exist on the island for the following few days, but all the Chaos Emeralds have disappeared without a trace.
And then, while he was examining every nook and cranny of the island, still not giving up, Knuckle encountered an unfamiliar man in the forest.

As soon as that man, who called himself Dr. Eggman, learned that Knuckle is the Chaos Emeralds' guardian, he informed him this.
"I am a scientist who came to investigate that egg. Hmmm, if you are the Chaos Emeralds' guardian then I have to tell you this. The truth is, you see, I'm followed by an evil hedgehog named Sonic who is disturbing my research, and he seems to be targeting the Chaos Emeralds on this island."

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11 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

I got it from Sonic Retro's coverage. The translator herself, Windii, is also very credible. 

But in any case, both the US and Jap versions of the manual state that Eggman steals the emeralds as he tricks Knuckles into thinking Sonic took them, which is the plot of the game, so I'm not sure where you got that from.

At a stretch you could interpret the English manuals saying this, but it's really not conclusive in either version. Eggman decides to steal the emeralds, he tricks Knuckles as part of his plan to get the emeralds, but there isn't a stated point where he actually gets them. And the Japanese manual has them seemingly magically vanish before Knuckles' eyes, before (or possibly just as) the Death Egg lands on the island, and he doesn't meet Eggman until days later.

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18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

At a stretch you could interpret the English manuals saying this, but it's really not conclusive in either version. Eggman decides to steal the emeralds, he tricks Knuckles as part of his plan to get the emeralds, but there isn't a stated point where he actually gets them. And the Japanese manual has them seemingly magically vanish before Knuckles' eyes, before (or possibly just as) the Death Egg lands on the island, and he doesn't meet Eggman until days later.

I was actually just about to say the key difference between the US and Jap versions. 

In the US ver., Eggman doesn't steal them yet. He plans on doing so, but he has to convince Knuckles that Sonic has them first.

In the Jap ver., however, Eggman already has them, and still convinces Knuckles that Sonic is the one that has them.

You know he has to have the Chaos Emeralds on him prior to everything starting because the in-game cutscenes shows him with his Death Egg up and running. He can't do that if he didn't have the emeralds on him because it was just destroyed from Sonic 2, and the whole point of him being on Angel Island is to grab the emeralds so he can get his Death Egg back up and running again. 

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Okay can you point out to me the specific part that shows that Eggman has the emeralds? Because when it talks about them glowing and vibrating and then there's a flash of light and they're gone, it sounds like something like this is happening, not like Eggman is stealing them.

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25 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

@PengiYea, there's more to that when you read more below. Continuing where you left off:

Knuckle hurriedly leaped into the altar.
However, the Chaos Emeralds that should have been in there had vanished, without leaving a single fragment behind.

Knuckle went out of the altar dumbfounded.
Then, when he turned his feeble glance into the distance... He noticed something strange appearing near the lake.
When he saw that large, round object shaped like an egg, Knuckle felt a shiver along his spine.

"That large egg is the legendary dragon's..."
There's no mistaking that this egg must be the one that appears in the legend described in the Chaos Emerald's altar, the egg that will bring disaster to this island.

Knuckle patrolled the altar of seven Chaos Emeralds that exist on the island for the following few days, but all the Chaos Emeralds have disappeared without a trace.
And then, while he was examining every nook and cranny of the island, still not giving up, Knuckle encountered an unfamiliar man in the forest.

As soon as that man, who called himself Dr. Eggman, learned that Knuckle is the Chaos Emeralds' guardian, he informed him this.
"I am a scientist who came to investigate that egg. Hmmm, if you are the Chaos Emeralds' guardian then I have to tell you this. The truth is, you see, I'm followed by an evil hedgehog named Sonic who is disturbing my research, and he seems to be targeting the Chaos Emeralds on this island."

The Chaos Emeralds vibrated and vanished. There's nothing in the text that says Eggman stole them.

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Yea, here's from that same source on that same page on Retro:

Dr. Eggman's Conspiracy

Dr. Eggman, who escaped from the fallen Death Egg, was aware that the Chaos Emeralds were on the floating island.
He could catch a signal of a huge Chaos Emerald from a crack in the earth opened by the Death Egg. Using that energy, it is possible to let the Death Egg fly out into space again.

Dr. Eggman started building a base on the floating island at a quick pace in order to obtain the Chaos Emeralds.
Then, he remodeled the animals into robots, and changed the floating island's nature into a more severe one with an environmental change machine.

"Daaaahahaha!! Sonic, you're too late to come to this island. This time, by using the Chaos Emeralds, the world will be mine!"

The actors and the stage are all set.
Sonic's new adventure will now begin here.

8 minutes ago, Pengi said:

The Chaos Emeralds vibrated and vanished. There's nothing in the text that says Eggman stole them.

You have to read the whole thing to understand the full context.

Dr. Eggman's Death Egg from Sonic 2 crash landed on Angel Island. Eggman states he couldn't get it to run again after what Sonic just did to it.

Then Eggman gets energy readings of the Chaos and Master emeralds after the big crack he did to the Island after crash landing his Death Egg onto it. Eggman then starts his plans to grab the emerald by making a base on top of Angel Island, which is what the Launch Base Zone is.

Knuckles then notices the emeralds shake violently before a big explosion of sorts happens. At this point the emeralds are gone and Knuckles got kicked out the emerald altar and was knocked unconscious. When he wakes up, he notices an EGG in the sky, aka the Death Egg. Following that, he notices Eggman right next to him, which is when Eggman lies to him about Sonic being evil, targeting the emeralds and all that stuff. 

So there you go. Eggman has them because now his Death Egg is running, which he specifically said he wasn't able to without the emeralds.

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1 minute ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Yea, here's from that same source on that same page on Retro:

Dr. Eggman's Conspiracy

Dr. Eggman, who escaped from the fallen Death Egg, was aware that the Chaos Emeralds were on the floating island.
He could catch a signal of a huge Chaos Emerald from a crack in the earth opened by the Death Egg. Using that energy, it is possible to let the Death Egg fly out into space again.

Dr. Eggman started building a base on the floating island at a quick pace in order to obtain the Chaos Emeralds.
Then, he remodeled the animals into robots, and changed the floating island's nature into a more severe one with an environmental change machine.

"Daaaahahaha!! Sonic, you're too late to come to this island. This time, by using the Chaos Emeralds, the world will be mine!"

The actors and the stage are all set.
Sonic's new adventure will now begin here.

Yes that's Eggman building Launch Base, detecting the Master Emerald, and trying to find it and the other emeralds. Nothing about this shows him actually obtaining them. And that he tried to launch the Death Egg isn't proof; the Death Egg was functional back in Sonic 2 without a single emerald, and he failed to get it back up into space because he didn't have the infinite energy magic rocks he was looking for.

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13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes that's Eggman building Launch Base, detecting the Master Emerald, and trying to find it and the other emeralds. Nothing about this shows him actually obtaining them. And that he tried to launch the Death Egg isn't proof; the Death Egg was functional back in Sonic 2 without a single emerald, and he failed to get it back up into space because he didn't have the infinite energy magic rocks he was looking for.

As I stated above in my edited comment, take note that Eggman's Death Egg was completely destroyed and he himself says he needed the Chaos Emeralds to fix it and get it back up and running again. Later on Knuckles sees the Death Egg working.

Also, the point of Sonic 2 was to prevent Eggman from getting the emeralds in order for him to not complete the Death Egg. So I don't think Eggman had the whole thing down completed yet.

But with all that said, you see in Sonic 3 that in Launch Base Zone, the Death Egg is flying and fully restored, so that tells you that Eggman already has the Angel Island emeralds.

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8 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

As I stated above in my edited comment, take note that Eggman's Death Egg was completely destroyed and he himself says he needed the Chaos Emeralds to fix it and get it back up and running again.

Even after Sonic 2 the Death Egg was still intact enough to crash into the island and drive it down to the ocean's surface, and Windii's translation implies it's still intact enough to continue calling it the Death Egg (and not "a giant mess of flaming scrap") after the impact. And Eggman specifically says he needs the emeralds to get it back into space, not to "fix it".

8 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Later on Knuckles sees the Death Egg working.

He sees the Death Egg. Not one single word is said about whether or not it is "working".

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17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Even after Sonic 2 the Death Egg was still intact enough to crash into the island and drive it down to the ocean's surface, and Windii's translation implies it's still intact enough to continue calling it the Death Egg (and not "a giant mess of flaming scrap") after the impact. And Eggman specifically says he needs the emeralds to get it back into space, not to "fix it".

He sees the Death Egg. Not one single word is said about whether or not it is "working".

You're splitting hairs on the main point here though. The point is that Eggman couldn't get it to run again without the emeralds. Also, the beginning of the jap ver. literally states that the Death Egg from Sonic 2 was destroyed, debris was falling from it crashing onto earth, and that it became a fireball crashing onto Angel Island.... but that's besides the point.

Also, Knuckles says he saw the Death Egg appearing near the lake. Clearly its running and not stuck and dismantled on the island.

Look, just take into account what the US versions of the story says. They say Eggman didn't have the emeralds yet. Well, if that were the case, then how did he get the Death Egg fully completed and running by Launch Base Zone? He should have had the emeralds there if that were the case but the US ver says he doesn't... which is why Eggman having the emeralds in the beginning like the jap version says makes a lot more sense, because the US version literally says he needs the emeralds to make the Death Egg start up and never got them yet he has the Death Egg running in the game anyway.

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1 minute ago, StriCNYN3 said:

You're splitting hairs on the main point here though. The point is that Eggman couldn't get it to run again without the emeralds.

Nothing says this. The language in both translations of the Japanese story is specific: he needs emerald power to get the Death Egg back into space. We see this explicitly in the game: he tries to get it back into space by strapping rocket boosters onto it but this fails, he gets the Master Emerald and it can float up into space otherwise unassisted.

1 minute ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Look, just take into account about the US versions of the story. They say Eggman didn't have the emeralds yet. Well, if that were the case, then how did he get the Death Egg fully completed and running by Launch Base Zone?

Same way he built it the first time. Even if you want to say it wasn't "complete" in Sonic 2 it was still plenty functional, and I'd hesitate to call it "complete" in Sonic 3 when it can't even successfully launch.

1 minute ago, StriCNYN3 said:

... because the US version literally says he needs the emeralds to make the Death Egg start up.

Where are you getting this from? The US manual says he decides to go after the emeralds to repair it after figuring out that they make the island float, but it doesn't say that they're necessary for it to start up. Even here the key point is that Eggman needs a way to float the Death Egg.

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ArcticHelplessJapanesebeetle-size_restricted.gif

This is a nice lore off and all, but I think you're both overlooking the obvious Phoenix Egg in the Sky

Spoiler

Sonic had the Chaos Emerald at the beginning of the game, which Knuckles takes from him.

 

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4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

This is a nice lore off and all, but I think you're both overlooking the obvious Phoenix Egg in the Sky

  Hide contents

Sonic had the Chaos Emerald at the beginning of the game, which Knuckles takes from him.

 

This whole thing started with a discussion on whether there's multiple sets of emeralds or not, and the Japanese Sonic 3 manual implies that there are (as Knuckles was guarding a set before 3&K starts).

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I'm having trouble what we're not seeing here @Diogenes

Read here what this says stated by Eggman in the Jap ver of the manual:

"If their energy could be utilized", Dr. Eggman thought, "the Death Egg may be able to fly into orbit again."

What else could that possibly mean? The Death Egg's main functions are by flying and going into orbit.... and clearly Eggman is gambling if this could even work, because he said it may be able to fly again... this is after the manual just telling you that the Death Egg was thoroughly destroyed

about Sonic 2's Death Egg, difference here is that there was only one set of emeralds to beat Eggman to the punch with and wasn't destroyed vs Sonic 3 where its saying there are other emeralds and that Eggman has them already and that he was working with a destroyed craft. So really, theres two possibilities.

One: Sonic 2's Sonic fought Eggman on an uncompleted Death Egg base as Sonic gathered all the emeralds before him as this was Eggman's desperate last line of defense.

Two: Sonic getting all the emeralds in Sonic 2 is actually non canon and Eggman actually did get the emeralds before Sonic for his Death Egg Base to be completed. (Edit: which could still mean Sonic got them all back from Eggman by the end, but I personally think that's a whole lot of reaching haha. Scenario one seems more probable)

And I don't know how you could tell the state of how it launches in Sonic 3. That seems like a reach to me. All we can honestly tell from the game is that it launched, and then that Sonic destroyed part of it from under. Keep in mind, the jap manual has already told the player that Eggman has the emeralds for the Death Egg to go into orbit again.

And look here and read the last paragraph under Knuckles's bio. It literally says the Death Egg lost its ability to fly after crash landing and needs the chaos emeralds for it to fly again.

 

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4 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

I'm having trouble what we're not seeing here @Diogenes

Read here what this says stated by Eggman in the Jap ver of the manual:

"If their energy could be utilized", Dr. Eggman thought, "the Death Egg may be able to fly into orbit again."

What else could that possibly mean?

Yes, what could it possibly mean, besides that the emeralds are for making it fly into space. Not for structural repairs, not for powering the lights and the doors and the light-ring tunnel zipper things, the emeralds are for lifting it into space, just as the Master Emerald lifts Angel Island into the air, just as we see it do in Sky Sanctuary once Eggman has the Master Emerald, while conventional rocket boosters failed to get it into space in Launch Base. Magic rock+island=floaty island, therefore magic rock+space station=floaty space station, that is the point of him trying to steal the emeralds.

15 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

... Sonic 3 where its saying there are other emeralds and that Eggman has them already ...

... Keep in mind, the jap manual has already told the player that Eggman has the emeralds for the Death Egg to go into orbit again.

You still have not proven this.

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34 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This whole thing started with a discussion on whether there's multiple sets of emeralds or not, and the Japanese Sonic 3 manual implies that there are (as Knuckles was guarding a set before 3&K starts).

Ah. Continue, should you feel free. 

21 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Also, how did Knuckles lose the emeralds again after snagging them from Sonic? 

He put them in the Special Zone with hidden Warp Rings.  

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Making things fly is not the only function of the Chaos Emeralds. Besides, you're mixing up the Master Emerald with the Chaos Emeralds. Eggman wanted and got the Chaos Emeralds for the Death Egg initially. Not the Master Emerald. Your angel Island analogy does not apply. And you're missing the fact that the Death Egg was destroyed and the chaos emeralds was what he needed and you see it flying later, told within the manual and seen in game. 

And I just stated that Sonic destroyed part of the death Egg from under when you beat the Launch Base Zone boss. You're mixing scenarios here. It was already up and running. Sonic was the one that went and destroyed the thing to begin with before re crash landing onto Angel Island.

I already did prove to you @Diogenes. You're making me run in circles when I've already pointed and highlighted where it says Eggman grabbed the emeralds already. You didn't even address my comment when I said that Knuckles saw the Death Egg appearing near the lake after the Emeralds were missing. Like how could you not see right there that Eggman has them at that point? It's clearly stating he has it at that moment. It's not like the Chaos Emeralds just got up and decided to leave, and it was only mere coincidence that Eggman shows up right then and there with the Death Egg and Knuckles.

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3 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Making things fly is not the only function of the Chaos Emeralds.

But it is the relevant property here. Again the manuals explicitly talk about how the emeralds make the island float and how Eggman needs them to get the Death Egg into space.

3 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Besides, you're mixing up the Master Emerald with the Chaos Emeralds.

3's manuals don't treat them as being fundamentally different. The English manual says the island uses "the power of the emeralds", plural, to float. The Japanese manual says Eggman detects a huge Chaos Emerald underground, obviously the Master Emerald.

3 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Your angel Island analogy does not apply.

It's the entire goddamn point of the game!

3 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

And you're missing the fact that the Death Egg was destroyed

If you really believe the Death Egg was blown to smithereens, are you trying to tell me that Eggman basically wished it back into existence with the emeralds within the minutes or at best hours that Knuckles was unconscious? I'm not expecting realistic construction times here but that's a bit much to swallow, and if he's wielding that level of power what's stopping him from just wishing the thing back into space right away?

3 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

and you see it flying later,

Using conventional rockets, not magic emerald power.

3 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

I already did prove to you @Diogenes. You're making me run in circles when I've already pointed and highlighted where it says Eggman grabbed the emeralds already.

You did not. I've been reading the exact same text as you, at no point in it does it say that Eggman has gotten his hands on the emeralds, you're simply making leaps of logic.

3 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

You didn't even address my comment when I said that Knuckles saw the Death Egg appearing near the lake after the Emeralds were missing were missing. Like how could you not see right there that Eggman has them at that point? It's clearly stating he has it at that point.

That's where the Death Egg landed. I don't buy your notion that it was obliterated and then magicked back into existence while Knuckles was out.

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Quote

 

But it is the relevant property here. Again the manuals explicitly talk about how the emeralds make the island float and how Eggman needs them to get the Death Egg into space.

 

No, that's just twisting the narrative. What the Jap manual actually says is this:

Long ago, back when the island was still part of a continent.
People of an exceptional civilization lived there.
That civilization built a peaceful and wealthy society by the energy of certain "power stones."
However at one point, when a faction of elders tried to make the energy of the "power stones" theirs, they accidentally made that energy go awry.
The civilization was destroyed in an instant, and vanished from history.
And after this incident... It is said that the gods that came down from the sky restored part of the civilization as an "island," and released it into the sky along with the "power stones."

This is Sonic's perspective of what he recalls the legend of the Angel Island to be. This is not the game telling you this is how all the emeralds function.

Quote

 

3's manuals don't treat them as being fundamentally different. The English manual says the island uses "the power of the emeralds", plural, to float. The Japanese manual says Eggman detects a huge Chaos Emerald underground, obviously the Master Emerald.

 

No, because this is what it says afterwards, starting off from where you left off:

Dr. Eggman, who escaped from the fallen Death Egg, was aware that the Chaos Emeralds were on the floating island.
He could catch a signal of a huge Chaos Emerald from a crack in the earth opened by the Death Egg. Using that energy, it is possible to let the Death Egg fly out into space again.

Dr. Eggman started building a base on the floating island at a quick pace in order to obtain the Chaos Emeralds.

They're clearly referring to Eggman getting the Chaos Emeralds and not the Mater Emerald. Not only that, the Master Emerald was clearly untouched the whole time in Sonic 3's portion, as you can see when you eventually go after the Super Emeralds, and the Master emerald is clearly shown to have different properties in game, where when that's taken away, The Island falls, but when the Super Emeralds are all there at the Altar but NOT the Master Emerald, the Island is still at the risk of falling because that's not what those emeralds' duties are.

Quote

It's the entire goddamn point of the game!

Yo, you're literally trying to tell me the Chaos Emeralds are the same as the Master Emerald? No. That's completely wrong.Look at my post above this quote and see why.

Quote

 

If you really believe the Death Egg was blown to smithereens, are you trying to tell me that Eggman basically wished it back into existence with the emeralds within the minutes or at best hours that Knuckles was unconscious? I'm not expecting realistic construction times here but that's a bit much to swallow, and if he's wielding that level of power what's stopping him from just wishing the thing back into space right away?

 

....Seriously, I mean this in the most non snarkiest way possible, but honestly... Are you even reading what I'm replying to you? First of all, what do you see here? @59:08 - 59:22 of the video

Looks like The Death Egg's blowing up into smithereens, correct? Or do I need my eyes checked?

Second of all, read here and tell me what this says from literally the beginning of the Japanese Manual of Sonic 3 that I already pointed out before plenty of times before and gave you a source of:

After Sonic 2's Adventure...

Dr. Eggman's fortress, the Death Egg, which was thoroughly destroyed by Sonic in the previous adventure, was just starting to crash towards the earth.

On the Death Egg's dropping orbit, there was a single huge, floating mass of clouds closer to the ground.
And there was an enormous shadow quietly hiding within those clouds...
Towering mountains, spread out woods... That shadow was an island. It was a massive "floating island" that drifted through the sky.

The Death Egg became a fireball and crashed hard into that "floating island."
The mountains tumbled, the woods were knocked down.
That tremendous impact greatly slanted the "floating island" and gradually lowered its altitude.

The floating island finally collided with the sea surface.
The floating island caused large waves that one could call a tsunami to surge, but did not sink to the bottom of the ocean.
Bearing the Death Egg, the floating island stayed slightly above the sea as if nothing had happened.

Sonic and Tails's Journey

Several days later... On an island far from the place where the Death Egg and the floating island collided.

Tails, a two-tailed fox, suddenly started catching a strong Chaos Emerald signal on the jewel radar he invented.
"It might have something to do with the giant tsunami that happened recently..." Tails pondered as he headed to the beach where Sonic was.

When Knuckle regained consciousness, his body was thrown out of the altar.
As he slowly rose his body and looked around the vicinity, a partially destroyed emerald altar came into Knuckle's view.
Knuckle hurriedly leaped into the altar.
However, the Chaos Emeralds that should have been in there had vanished, without leaving a single fragment behind.

Knuckle went out of the altar dumbfounded.
Then, when he turned his feeble glance into the distance... He noticed something strange appearing near the lake.
When he saw that large, round object shaped like an egg, Knuckle felt a shiver along his spine.

"That large egg is the legendary dragon's..."
There's no mistaking that this egg must be the one that appears in the legend described in the Chaos Emerald's altar, the egg that will bring disaster to this island.

Knuckle patrolled the altar of seven Chaos Emeralds that exist on the island for the following few days, but all the Chaos Emeralds have disappeared without a trace.
And then, while he was examining every nook and cranny of the island, still not giving up, Knuckle encountered an unfamiliar man in the forest.

it was not mere minutes that Eggman set this all up, but several days upon days that this was set up. And they clearly said the Death Egg was thoroughly destroyed... Now, whether you want to believe something else is entirely on you, but this is what the Japanese manual is saying.

Quote

 

Using conventional rockets, not magic emerald power.

 

Evidently that's how its supposed to start out. Where are you getting that it's supposed to just fly on its own or any other way than what was shown?

Quote

 

That's where the Death Egg landed. I don't buy your notion that it was obliterated and then magicked back into existence while Knuckles was out.

 

So... you just ignoring evidence? Well that's not my problem. I'm just stating what the manual says. All you're doing is just fighting what was written. I don't see how you don't see how 

1: The Emeralds suddenly are missing when Eggman appears after just saying he wants them.

2: The dismantled and once thoroughly destroyed Death Egg stuck on the ground making a crack on the Island's earth suddenly appearing near the lake side by Knuckles's own words

3: All taking several days by a huge armada of robots, magical gem stones, and the smartest in-universe fictional scientist to get this all running

Somehow doesn't tell you that Eggman has the emeralds and got his Death Egg running, especialy when it's shown that was his motive for getting the emeralds and what was shown in game... but hey I'll gladly just agree to disagree on this whole notion.

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1 hour ago, StriCNYN3 said:

No, that's just twisting the narrative. What the Jap manual actually says is this:

There's more to the manuals than the story Sonic recounts and that's not even the part I'm concerned about. Both manuals' stories connect the emeralds to floating to the Death Egg:

Quote

After learning that the island is able to float in the sky by harnessing the power of the emeralds, the Doc decides to steal the emeralds so he can repair his Death Egg ship.

Quote

He could catch a signal of a huge Chaos Emerald from a crack in the earth opened by the Death Egg. Using that energy, it is possible to let the Death Egg fly out into space again.

And then this is literally what happens in the game, he gets the Master Emerald and uses it to make the Death Egg float into space.

Quote

No, because this is what it says afterwards, starting off from where you left off:

*snip*

They're clearly refereeing to Eggman getting the Chaos Emeralds and not the Mater Emerald. Not only that, the Master Emerald was clearly untouched the whole time in Sonic 3's portion, as you can see when you eventually go after the Super Emeralds,

It is referencing Eggman's desire to obtain the emeralds. He doesn't actually get any emeralds of any sort until Hidden Palace Zone. He wants the Chaos Emeralds, he tries to get them, but he does not.

Quote

and the Master emerald is clearly shown to have different properties in game, where when that's taken away, The Island falls, but when the Super Emeralds are all there at the Altar, the Island is still at the risk of falling because that's not what those emeralds' duty are.

I could fairly argue that the Super Emeralds aren't canon, considering it's Super Sonic's ending that has a teaser for Knuckles' story. But even aside from that neither you nor I can presume to know exactly how "emeralds make stuff float" works. Maybe the Master Emerald is just that much more powerful than even 7 Super Emeralds and without it there's only enough power to keep the island above water.

Quote

Yo, you're literally trying to tell me the Chaos Emeralds are the same as the Master Emerald? No. That's completely wrong.Look at my post above this quote and see why.

I am saying they are the same type of thing, that the Master Emerald is a Master Chaos Emerald. And it's not just me saying this, again, the manuals themselves don't make a clear distinction between them besides one being real fuckin' big and strong.

Quote

....Seriously, I mean this in the most non snarkiest way possible, but honestly... Are you even reading what I'm replying to you? First of all, what do you see here? @59:08 - 59:22 of the video

*snip*

Looks like The Death Egg's blowing up into smithereens, correct? Or do I need my eyes checked?

Man you think those dinky explosions are enough to tear an entire space station to pieces? Eggman gets caught in those kinds of explosions all the time, including this very instance, and they've failed to render even one adult human into chunky salsa, much less a that's-no-moon space station.

And you realize the Death Egg crashes into Angel Island, right? Enough of it stayed together to push the entire island down to sea level. If that black and white scene is actually meant to be the entire space station being blown to pieces in space it's very clearly been retconned by 3.

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Second of all, read here and tell me what this says from literally the beginning of the Japanese Manual of Sonic 3 that I already pointed out before plenty of times before and gave you a source of:

Dude I have been reading from the exact same source as you you don't have to act like I'm ignoring it.

Quote

it was not mere minutes that Eggman set this all up, but several days upon days that this was set up.

So are you claiming that Knuckles was knocked out for "days upon days"? Because he goes from watching his emeralds freak out, to being unconscious, to waking up and finding the emeralds gone, to seeing the Death Egg. If the Death Egg was blown to bits, and Eggman repaired it with Angel Island's emeralds, the whole repair process must have happened while Knuckles was unconscious. I don't think we're meant to assume he was put into a goddamn coma.

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Evidently that's how its supposed to start out. Where are you getting that it's supposed to just fly on its own or any other way than what was shown?

Well when we see it float up in Sky Sanctuary, no rockets are involved. There's no rockets visibly attached to it in S&K's intro, or in the background of Lava Reef and Hidden Palace, mere minutes before it rises under emerald power. And again, the entire point is that the Master Emerald can make a large thing like an island or a space station defy gravity.

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1: The Emeralds suddenly are missing when Eggman appears after just saying he wants them.

Eggman always wants the emeralds, that doesn't mean he's any good at getting them. You've failed to provide a sensible timeline wherein he could get them or any actual evidence that he had them.

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2: The dismantled and once thoroughly destroyed Death Egg stuck on the ground making a crack on the Island's earth suddenly appearing near the lake side by Knuckles's own words

Why can it not have simply cracked the ground near the lake?

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3: All taking several days by a huge team of robots, magical gem stones, and the smartest fiction scientist to get this running

What? Unless you're going with the Knuckles coma idea, your take on the events does not allow the Death Egg to be rebuilt over several days, it would have to be recognizable as a bigass metal egg in the time it takes Knuckles to wake up. And you keep trying to slip the emeralds into the process despite that being the point you're trying to prove.

e: and like, even setting all this aside, if Eggman's supposed to have a full set of emeralds on hand, why the shit do they not appear anywhere in the game? He doesn't stick them in his boss robots, Sonic doesn't steal them back and deliver them to their rightful guardian, we don't get some post-credits stinger of Eggman juggling emeralds even if you collected your set. How do you give Eggman the world-conquering power he's been seeking for several games and then completely fail to actually address that?

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11 hours ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Yea, here's from that same source on that same page on Retro:

Dr. Eggman's Conspiracy

Dr. Eggman, who escaped from the fallen Death Egg, was aware that the Chaos Emeralds were on the floating island.
He could catch a signal of a huge Chaos Emerald from a crack in the earth opened by the Death Egg. Using that energy, it is possible to let the Death Egg fly out into space again.

Dr. Eggman started building a base on the floating island at a quick pace in order to obtain the Chaos Emeralds.
Then, he remodeled the animals into robots, and changed the floating island's nature into a more severe one with an environmental change machine.

"Daaaahahaha!! Sonic, you're too late to come to this island. This time, by using the Chaos Emeralds, the world will be mine!"

----

Knuckles then notices the emeralds shake violently before a big explosion of sorts happens. At this point the emeralds are gone and Knuckles got kicked out the emerald altar and was knocked unconscious. When he wakes up, he notices an EGG in the sky, aka the Death Egg. Following that, he notices Eggman right next to him, which is when Eggman lies to him about Sonic being evil, targeting the emeralds and all that stuff. 

The main prologue talks about Eggman's ambition to obtain the Chaos Emeralds, just like Sonic 1, 2, 3D etc. It doesn't say that he actually managed to obtain them before the start of the game.

Re-read the Knuckles prologue. He notices the Death Egg near the lake, not in the sky. He doesn't encounter Eggman until a few days after the Chaos Emeralds disappeared.

9 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Also, how did Knuckles lose the emeralds again after snagging them from Sonic? 

That is a bit of an odd one. After the credits of Sonic 3's bad ending, Knuckles is seen with the Chaos Emeralds that Sonic/Tails didn't retrieve from the Special Stages. So it can be inferred that Knuckles put the Chaos Emeralds into the Special Stages for safekeeping, to keep them out of Sonic's hands. 

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Yo @Diogenes... All of the questions you're bringing up are easily answered if you just read the Jap manual of Sonic 3&K on Sonic Retro and play the game for yourself. I've tried telling you everything with written and visual evidence, but it's just going in circles. You're mixing up what you remember from Sonic 3 and at the same time, trying to poke holes into a manual's story that you evidently haven't even fully read or understood the context of yourself, and then mixing up the US version of the story that clearly has errors. Chaos Emeralds working the same as the Master Emerald to float the Angel Island? And that's evidence for the Death Egg? Come on now, do you seriously think that's the case for any Sonic game, let alone what the in-game cutscenes of Sonic 3&K tell you, or are you being disingenuous? I just told you how the Chaos emeralds don't keep the Islands a float like like Master Emeralds do.... but here we are.... I don't know why you took it upon yourself to try to answer me when this wasn't even in reply to you to begin with and then clearly you're not even doing your part in reading what's being brought to you, but I did not come here to argue with you about what you want to believe what the manual says and what the game does. Because that's all you're doing. Fighting the story of the manual I presented with your head canon.

All of a sudden the Death Egg doesn't need thrusters to start off and fly? Says who? You? Mind you, that was an extreme close up of the Death Egg in Launch Base Zone, and you're comparing a far shot of the same Death Egg from Sky Sanctuary and Lava Reef which were already launched way up above for the thrusters to even matter... but I'll get more into that in a second... Dinky explosions of Sonic 2's Death Egg? You mean the Sega Genesis 16-bit cartridge video game of the early 90's this is all seen in? Where the Jap manual of Sonic3 deliberately says it got thoroughly destroyed which you keep ignoring? This is your argument? Don't even start with that. Also, did you just somehow not see the giant star bomb all the animals and Tails saw from ground level into freaking space? This dinky explosion?...

GENESIS--Sonic%20the%20Hedgehog%202_Nov2

...The scene I told you to watch and gave you a time stamp of specifically for what I meant? This is what I'm talking about. You're just being to busy being so quick to be a contrarian with your head canon instead of looking at what I've got to say and show. The evidence is there. There's no refuting this. This is your head canon you're arguing with. But back on to the Death Egg argument.... Clearly the game showing the thrusters of the Death Egg is how it get's launched in LAUNCH BASE Zone. Never mind the fact that you're once again mixing scenarios up. By that point of Sky Sanctuary and Lava Reef Zone where you see the Death Egg alone for your argument.... That's the end of Sonic and Knuckles where Eggman had the Master Emerald, not the Chaos Emeralds. This is not Sonic 3! This is a complete false equivalence and is a completely moot argument.

Again, let me be more clear. Your point about "Eggman takes the Master Emerald for the Death Egg".... Yes, after the fact he wanted and got the Chaos Emeralds, as I've already said plenty times. If you had read the manual I keep telling you about, you would know that all of this manual's story is set in the beginning of Sonic 3. Eggman does NOT take the Master Emerald until way later in the game, which is Sonic & Knuckles's end portion. You can see that by how Angel Island is not sunken described in the manual. You can see that in-game when you get to the Sonic and Knuckles portion of the game where the Master Emeralds rests in Lave Reef Zone's Altar when going to the Special Zones... but guess what you don't see with the Master Emerald when going to the Special Zones when just coming from Sonic 3? The Super Emeralds aka Angel Island Chaos Emeralds. So tell me again how the Death Egg is beginning to go up and orbit again in Sonic 3's portion in Launch Base Zone if Eggman doesn't have them yet with him saying he needs them for anything to start up again? Because the game is clearly telling you they're missing from the start and now all of a sudden the Death Egg is going into orbit again....

Again, you seem to keep ignoring every time I bring this up... The Chaos Emeralds Mysteriously Vanished from the Altar when Knuckles wakes up from being unconscious, notices they're all missing and searches for days for them (Which you keep trying to question the validity of what the manual itself says. Did you forget that Angel Island is... idk.... an island and is a very huge place at that? The Death Egg doesn't just eclipse the entire island like you're describing where it's just "noticeable everywhere". Yea The Death Egg is huge also, but you're solely reaching and purposefully ignoring what the manual says about the situation for your head canon of what you want Sonic to be to work. In Sonic & Knuckles's game intro, it's clearly seen to be only as sizable as Lava Reef Zone is (The Volcano it crash landed on) which is on one side of the Island!maxresdefault.jpgThere're plenty more zones and areas on Angel Island that's not even shown in that screen shot because it's just. That. Big of an island!.... And that's just the surface of the island for crying out loud. Again, read the manual or you wouldn't be questioning this)...

But back on the the emeralds mysteriously vanishing... what does Knuckles find instead after days of searching for the emeralds under and on top the island like said in the manual? The previously destroyed Death Egg which is now on the lake side of the Island aka Launch Base Zone, and then Eggman....

...You can't put the two together and see that Eggman took the Chaos Emeralds there? The main evil scientific and greedy antagonists of Sonic the Hedgehog who literally says he wants those Chaos Emeralds in the beginning of Sonic 3? Does the manual literally have to hand hold the audience and say "And at that moment when the emeralds vanished, Eggman took it all for himself"? Like seriously? This is why this seems you're coming off as disingenuous or somehow actually coming across as believing the Chaos Emeralds just grew legs and left, because this should not be this hard to grasp, but let's break it down further:

1: Destroyed Death Egg of Sonic 2 Crash Lands on Angel Island's earth area and can't function.

2: Angel Island Chaos Emeralds from altar mysteriously vanish afterwards.

3: Death Egg is now in new lake area of Angel Island aka Launch Base Zone.

4: Eggman is now seen and lies about Sonic having the missing Chaos Emeralds to Knuckles. 

Are we clear now? At any case, I'm done, because again, I did not come here to argue about the many ways you could spin new random preconditions and rules on what the game actually deliberately tells us through manual and in game cutscenes, and I don't want to stink up this thread.  You keep trying to act like this is up to my interpretation. I'm literally just reading the manual that I gave you a source of for yourself.... to which evidently you had no idea of but feel the need to keep questioning me like I wrote it. That's all. I really don't want this to escalate anymore but it's really coming across as you just ignoring what I'm pointing to you from the manual and in-game cutscenes like I'm crazy despite me constantly showing proof while you're blatantly just failing to see how your own questions of the manual can be easily answered if you re-familiarized yourself with the game, read the Jap manual and even the US manual more clearly and fully, stop using head canon to dissuade actual points and events stated and shown in the manual and game and read what people have to say instead of glimpsing over them... Because again, "dinky explosions" and "The Death Egg didn't fly the way I wanted to despite being a whole different scenario" are not arguments and are explained in game and manual what things actually are.

So yea, any ill will or anything you may or may not feel, I apologize in advance and will just check out what you gotta say from afar because I got things to do now and spent waaaaay to much time on Sonic and all this right now lol. Peace out.   

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@Diogenes@StriCNYN3

Also wanted to say that I get the feeling that the Master Emerald itself was something they didn't have fully thought out until after they were forced to split Sonic & Knuckles off as a separate game. Notice that in a couple of early things, the Master Emerald is referred to as just The Chaos Emerald. 

And given that they had already done a bit of retconning regarding the number of Chaos Emeralds, their shape, and where they happened to be from game to game, there's definitely more precedent for that to be the case.

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28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Chaos Emeralds working the same as the Master Emerald to float the Angel Island?

Again, even the Japanese manual conflates the Chaos and Master emeralds. Direct quote, from Windii's translation of the Japanese manual:

Quote

Dr. Eggman, who escaped from the fallen Death Egg, was aware that the Chaos Emeralds were on the floating island.
He could catch a signal of a huge Chaos Emerald from a crack in the earth opened by the Death Egg. Using that energy, it is possible to let the Death Egg fly out into space again.

They are not treated as fundamentally different things.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

All of a sudden the Death Egg doesn't need thrusters to start off and fly? Says who? You?

Says the game when it does exactly that in Sky Sanctuary.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Mind you, that was an extreme close up of the Death Egg in Launch Base Zone, and you're comparing a far shot of the same Death Egg from Sky Sanctuary and Lava Reef which were already launched way up above for the thrusters to even matter...

Take a look at these Death Eggs, and notice that only one shows any indication of what might be rocket boosters, and it's the smallest one, from Sonic 3's ending.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Where the Jap manual of Sonic3 deliberately says it got thoroughly destroyed which you keep ignoring?

I haven't ignored it, I've rejected your interpretation of it, because it clearly makes no sense. If the Death Egg was completely destroyed, it couldn't fall on Angel Island, as every version of the Sonic 3 manual claims. The manuals don't say that some pieces of the Death Egg landed there, they say "the Death Egg" crashed into it.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Also, did you just somehow not see the giant star bomb all the animals and Tails saw from ground level into freaking space? This dinky explosion?...

Seems awful odd that this space station destroying explosion did no damage to Sonic or Eggman despite being right there.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

But back on to the Death Egg argument.... Clearly the game showing the thrusters of the Death Egg is how it get's launched in LAUNCH BASE Zone. Never mind the fact that you're once again mixing scenarios up. By that point of Sky Sanctuary and Lava Reef Zone where you see the Death Egg alone for your argument.... That's the end of Sonic and Knuckles where Eggman had the Master Emerald, not the Chaos Emeralds. This is not Sonic 3! This is a complete false equivalence and is a completely moot argument.

I'm not mixing anything up, this is exactly what I've been saying.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

but guess what you don't see with the Master Emerald when going to the Special Zones when just coming from Sonic 3? The Super Emeralds aka Angel Island Chaos Emeralds. 

Yes, because as the Japanese manual states, they disappeared under mysterious circumstances. Circumstances that you have decided are "Eggman stealing them", but that you still have yet to provide the slightest bit of proof for.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

So tell me again how the Death Egg is beginning to go up and orbit again in Sonic 3's portion in Launch Base Zone if Eggman doesn't have them yet with him saying he needs them for anything to start up again?

You keep saying that the Death Egg needs the emeralds to "start up". This is not stated anywhere in any of the manuals.

And it's able to get into the air briefly because there are a bunch of giant rocket boosters attached to it. Get a big enough rocket and you can get anything airborne even without magic rocks.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

But back on the the emeralds mysteriously vanishing... what does Knuckles find instead after days of searching for the emeralds under and on top the island like said in the manual? The previously destroyed Death Egg which is now on the lake side of the Island aka Launch Base Zone, and then Eggman....

You've got a lot of fucking nerve condescending to me and demanding that I just "read the manual" this whole time when you can't even get the basic order of events as presented in plain text right.

Knuckles sees the Death Egg before he spends days searching for the emeralds.

Again, direct quote, from the same exact source you claim to clearly and unambiguously support your interpretation:

Quote

When Knuckle regained consciousness, his body was thrown out of the altar.
As he slowly rose his body and looked around the vicinity, a partially destroyed emerald altar came into Knuckle's view.
Knuckle hurriedly leaped into the altar.
However, the Chaos Emeralds that should have been in there had vanished, without leaving a single fragment behind.

Knuckle went out of the altar dumbfounded.
Then, when he turned his feeble glance into the distance... He noticed something strange appearing near the lake.
When he saw that large, round object shaped like an egg, Knuckle felt a shiver along his spine.

"That large egg is the legendary dragon's..."
There's no mistaking that this egg must be the one that appears in the legend described in the Chaos Emerald's altar, the egg that will bring disaster to this island.

Knuckle patrolled the altar of seven Chaos Emeralds that exist on the island for the following few days, but all the Chaos Emeralds have disappeared without a trace.
And then, while he was examining every nook and cranny of the island, still not giving up, Knuckle encountered an unfamiliar man in the forest.

 

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

...You can't put the two together and see that Eggman took the Chaos Emeralds there? The main evil scientific and greedy antagonists of Sonic the Hedgehog who literally says he wants those Chaos Emeralds in the beginning of Sonic 3? Does the manual literally have to hand hold the audience and say "And at that moment when the emeralds vanished, Eggman took it all for himself"? Like seriously? This is why this seems you're coming off as disingenuous or somehow actually coming across as believing the Chaos Emeralds just grew legs and left, because this should not be this hard to grasp,

I guess Eggman stole the emeralds at the end of Sonic 1, too. Weird how he used them to make some flowers around Sonic and then completely forgot to use them to take over the world.

28 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

1: Destroyed Death Egg of Sonic 2 Crash Lands on Angel Island's earth area and can't function.

2: Angel Island Chaos Emeralds from altar mysteriously vanish afterwards.

To be maybe a bit picky here, if the emeralds only disappear some amount of time after the Death Egg crashes, it seems a bit odd that Knuckles' story in the manual doesn't mention anything about the enormous impact that shook mountains, flattened forests, and forced the island to sea level. I'm inclined to believe that either the impact itself caused the emeralds to disappear, or that they disappeared slightly sooner and the impact happened while Knuckles was knocked out.

Also this little rundown still does not prove that Eggman stole the emeralds.

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