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19 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

I read this fanfic- written by Thrippa, I think- where the Master Emerald generates these constructs that train Knuckles in various fighting styles, implied to be the shades of previous guardians.  After Knuckles met Sonic and crew it started making doppelgangers of them for Knuckles to fight.  I always liked this idea because it sounds like something that would happen in a video game.

I've toyed with a similar idea, where Knuckles had the fighting experience and cultural knowledge of his deceased ancestors downloaded directly into his brain by the Master Emerald or another device on Angel Island immediately after he was born.

I really like these ideas but what are the odds, though, that Knuckles learned from people that live on the island? The Sonic 3 manual says that he was born and raised there, implying he had parents or a care taker. It also mentioned that he had friends and mentions the whole "shyness to women" tidbit.

Sonic Adventure proves that there are occupied villages with that balloon festival taking place in Ice Cap.

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 In his opening monologue in Sonic Adventure he says he's been alone on the Floating Island as long as he can remember.Screenshot_20191015-030856.thumb.png.5d73f0856895608848d3236b3f9edc03.png

I always assumed the little mountain village in Ice Cap Zone's last segment was actually located somewhere else in the mountains around the Mystic Ruins, and Sonic and Tails somehow navigated there in between the ice cave and snowboarding segments.  The NPCs in Station Square mention that they go snowboarding somewhere not far from the city; they can't be talking about Angel Island since it just fell from the sky and people certainly aren't traveling there during the game.

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Just now, Ivo-goji said:

 In his opening monologue in Sonic Adventure he says he's been alone on the Floating Island as long as he can remember.

The phrase,  "For as long as I can remember" doesn't necessarily always have us assume it to mean since he was a child. It's a popular cliche. In this context, it could simply mean that he cannot remember a time when he were not guarding the Emerald. We already have the Japanese Sonic 3 manual, which says straight up that he knows other people and that he was raised on the island meaning he wasn't alone his whole life.

Since we already have an official source stating such it more so suggests that the phrase "for as long as" implies that at some point he wasn't alone guarding the Emerald. In all probability Knuckles can remember many things (the people he interacted with, training, etc.) that pre-date it.

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5 minutes ago, MainJP said:

We already have the Japanese Sonic 3 manual, which says straight up that he knows other people and that he was raised on the island meaning he wasn't alone his whole life.

Not really.  What the Japanese manual says is "His friends on the island call him Knuckle. Having been born and raised on this island, all of its nature and animals were his friends. And it is the crystal "pillar" of the Chaos Emeralds that protects those friends.". There is no mention of other people, just nature and animals; in fact it sounds very much like he's been alone with only wildlife for company.  And the only inhabitants of Angel Island we see Knuckles interacting with are Flickies and such, in the intro to Mushroom Hill for instance.

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9 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Not really.  What the Japanese manual says is "His friends on the island call him Knuckle. Having been born and raised on this island, all of its nature and animals were his friends. And it is the crystal "pillar" of the Chaos Emeralds that protects those friends.". There is no mention of other people, just nature and animals; in fact it sounds very much like he's been alone with only wildlife for company. 

I went back and read Sonic 1, 2 and 3's manual. My thing was that it makes the distinction between "nature" and "animals" with the description for "nature" including both plants and animals:

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Leading me to believe "animal" meant beings like Knuckles or Sonic, hence why I said people (when I probably should have been saying animal people or anthros or something).

When I read the Sonic 2 manual it says this:

"Miles Prower" is a small fox. Miles has two tails. That is why the animals of the island call him "Tails."
He was often bullied because of his two tails.

So, are the manuals just not making any distinction between these guys:

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And these guys?

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Even the Sonic 1 storyboard had Sonic's band crew among the animals being held captive:

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Is Sonic not an "animal"? I find it hard to believe that Tails was getting bullied by those tiny critters or rather being bullied by "just" them and not some bigger, clothes wearing critters more like Tails himself. And there's still this:

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Don't tell me Knuckles is shy towards the females of these fucking things. Oh no.

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9 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

I always assumed the little mountain village in Ice Cap Zone's last segment was actually located somewhere else in the mountains around the Mystic Ruins, and Sonic and Tails somehow navigated there in between the ice cave and snowboarding segments.  The NPCs in Station Square mention that they go snowboarding somewhere not far from the city; they can't be talking about Angel Island since it just fell from the sky and people certainly aren't traveling there during the game.

This is sort of what's influencing my opinion that just because we haven't seen animal people on-screen doesn't mean that they aren't there, I mean, that doesn't mean an awful lot when we haven't seen any outside the established cast until Forces in 2017 anyhow. Nothing suggests that the area is off the island. They could be talking about a different area altogether.

The maps just have Ice Cap's entrance on Angel Island. We aren't exactly led to believe that there is a part of the level that isn't on the island itself.

bnTxgrn.pngmlyIGkW.png

But the game does tell us which part of the Mystic Ruin hub world is on Angel Island and which isn't.

When we go back to Sonic 3 we have Carnival Night, a huge, maintained themed park with working electricity.

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You can even see lights in the distance in the more heavily wooded outskirts area which resembles a town at night.

Spoiler

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The way the manuals describe it doesn't make it sound like an attraction relating to Eggman:

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"Carnival·Night"

"A park area that shines in the night sky." No mention of it being a product of Eggman's intervention. Same thing with the American manual and that one says that the Angel Island has a night life. I doubt the night life consists of just those little critters.

But when you go and look at the description of Chemical Plant for instance it says this:

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"Dr. Eggman's Chemical Factory. Run around the endlessly packed pavilion and run around in the various types."  Says right there that this is an Eggman industrial site.

For Launch Base Zone the manual also states that the site is an Eggman construction site. When a zone has an Eggman influence the manual states as such.

From the villages to the city I just find it hard to believe that there aren't...Sonic guys. Whatever they're called.

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17 hours ago, MainJP said:

Leading me to believe "animal" meant beings like Knuckles or Sonic, hence why I said people (when I probably should have been saying animal people or anthros or something).

I'm absolutely certain that the manuals are talking about the small animals Eggman traps in robots.  The small animals are the only characters Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles interact with (besides each other, and Eggman) in MD game cutscenes and manual descriptions.

sonic-0.gif

"Behold, Sonic! This time, everything will be different! I turned the island's animals into robots."

"You... you guys!"

"All of them will do as I say. In other words, this whole island is your enemy. Hahahahaha... cough, cough... This time, the world shall be mine~"

This is terrible! Go, Sonic the Hedgehog! Everyone is waiting for your help.- Sonic 1 JP manual

sonic-knuckles-4.jpg

tails_intro_945.gif

On that day, Tails was enjoying a nap in the shade of the forest near the house. The forest's greenery blocking sun's glare, the wing flapping and the chirping of the little birds made him feel really good. However...

BOOM!!! The sound of a big explosion suddenly echoed in the forest!!

"Whoa, what the!? What's going on!?" Tails panicked with a half awake look.
"Tails! Tails! We're in trouble!" The small bird Flicky shouted to Tails.
"Tails! The Battle Kukku army finally came to this island as well!"
"Battle what now!?" Tails had no clue what was going on.- Tails Adventures JP manual

We *only* see Sonic's non-small animal, anthropomorphic friends in storyboards and unused concept art for these early games- never in the finished product.

17 hours ago, MainJP said:

I find it hard to believe that Tails was getting bullied by those tiny critters or rather being bullied by "just" them and not some bigger, clothes wearing critters more like Tails himself.

Flickies can talk apparently, so they could bully him I suppose. However, the statement in question merely says Tails was bullied, not that he was bullied "by the animals".  There is no evidence that the word animal is ever used in reference to fully anthropomorphic Sonic characters in these early materials.

17 hours ago, MainJP said:

Don't tell me Knuckles is shy towards the females of these fucking things. Oh no.

Knuckles would be equally shy towards girls if he'd never met one, or after only meeting one solitary female (that particular profile comes from a Saturn game, after Knuckles met Amy).

Meanwhile the idea that there are other inhabitants on Angel Island contradicts a mountain range of statements affirming that Knuckles is alone on the Island.

The island's existence has long been a secret because not many people have ever seen it as it is always obscured by clouds. But the Echidna Tribe mysteriously disappeared leaving Knuckles as their lone descendant and guardian of these secrets.

Knuckles has a strong sense of honor and has a good heart (he is the equivalent to Doronpa in the Oba-Q story). He is very clever and smart, but had lived his life in solitude and was not accustomed to dealing with characters from the outer world, much less such a cunning one as Dr. Robotnik. This is why he was easily deceived by Robotnik into thinking that Sonic was a bad guy trying to steal the Chaos Emeralds. This deception allowed Robotnik to pit Knuckles against Sonic as a powerful adversary.- Knuckles' STI documents profile

Two statements in Sonic Adventure where he says he's been all alone on the Floating Island as long as he can remember.

An entire rap about how he survives being on his own without anyone else.

 “Knuckles was born alone on Angel Island, brought into this world to defend the Master Emerald. That is Knuckles' destiny and fate. If Sonic exemplifies the wind, then Knuckles is the mountain: stern and unmovable."- Sega of America profile

 "Knuckles is the guardian of the Master Emerald, which gives Angel Island its power to float in the sky. He is the last of the Echidnas of the island's native people." - Sonic & Sega All-Star Racing profile.

17 hours ago, MainJP said:

Nothing suggests that the area is off the island. They could be talking about a different area altogether.

Which would require that, in addition to the snowboarding mountain normally accessible to the citizens of Station Square that Sonic never sees, by sheer coincidence there is a similar resort on Angel Island where Sonic goes snowboarding immediately after hearing about this other unrelated location.  That seems like a much bigger stretch than the idea that Sonic could travel from Angel Island to another place in the Mystic Ruins area.

17 hours ago, MainJP said:

The way the manuals describe it doesn't make it sound like an attraction relating to Eggman:

Ok, sure.  Lets take this at face value and see how many logical inconsistencies result.

These Angel Island natives just so happen to have gravity altering contraptions and pneumatic tube transports just like the ones Eggman includes in his bases.

Multiple statements from official sources state Angel Island was hidden by clouds prior to the Death Egg collision.  That means these inhabitants with modern technology, who could communicate with outsiders or leave the island by balloon at any time, intentionally participated in a multi-generation conspiracy to conceal themselves from the surface world.

When Eggman came to the island and tricked Knuckles into cooperating with him, he either

A- also deceived all of Angel Island's other inhabitants into allowing him to run amok in their home in order to kill Sonic

B- successfully convinced Knuckles to fight Sonic at such a cost that collateral damage to rest of the populace was considered inconsequential.

They also either have never heard about Eggman or Sonic despite having modern technology that would presumably allow them to know what goes on in the outside world, or they do know about them yet never attempt to dissuade Knuckles from working with Eggman or communicate with him in any way as badniks overrun the place with impunity.

After all, Eggman destroys much of the island over the course of the game, including Carnival Night Zone which Knuckles allows to be flooded in order to kill Sonic.  If Carnival Night was merely an expendable Eggman base, this makes perfect sense; if it was part of a city inhabited by other people, it implies Knuckles is a complete monster.

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20 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

I'm absolutely certain that the manuals are talking about the small animals Eggman traps in robots.  The small animals are the only characters Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles interact with (besides each other, and Eggman) in MD game cutscenes and manual descriptions.

sonic-0.gif

"Behold, Sonic! This time, everything will be different! I turned the island's animals into robots."

"You... you guys!"

"All of them will do as I say. In other words, this whole island is your enemy. Hahahahaha... cough, cough... This time, the world shall be mine~"

This is terrible! Go, Sonic the Hedgehog! Everyone is waiting for your help.- Sonic 1 JP manual

sonic-knuckles-4.jpg

tails_intro_945.gif

On that day, Tails was enjoying a nap in the shade of the forest near the house. The forest's greenery blocking sun's glare, the wing flapping and the chirping of the little birds made him feel really good. However...

BOOM!!! The sound of a big explosion suddenly echoed in the forest!!

"Whoa, what the!? What's going on!?" Tails panicked with a half awake look.
"Tails! Tails! We're in trouble!" The small bird Flicky shouted to Tails.
"Tails! The Battle Kukku army finally came to this island as well!"
"Battle what now!?" Tails had no clue what was going on.- Tails Adventures JP manual

Ah, I'll concede to that.

20 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

We *only* see Sonic's non-small animal, anthropomorphic friends in storyboards and unused concept art for these early games- never in the finished product.

There's also SEGASonic Bros., but it's a scrapped game that was seemingly based on pre-scrapped content Sonic 1.

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20 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Knuckles would be equally shy towards girls if he'd never met one, or after only meeting one solitary female (that particular profile comes from a Saturn game, after Knuckles met Amy).

That's information relayed from the Sonic 3 manual, though. I only posted that since it's in English.

page18-720px-Sonic3_MD_JP_SonicJam_manua

The information in red translated by Windii:

  • A guardian who protects the Chaos Emeralds of the Floating Island.
  • An echidna of the marsupial family. His nickname is "Knuckle."
  • A short-tempered, reckless type. He is a gentle and kind guy, though.
  • Because he's sincere and docile, he is easily fooled.
  • He doesn't hate girls, but doesn't seem to be very good with them?
  • His hobby is, of course, digging holes. He is a mole, after all.
  • He is good at finding hidden routes.
  • He can fly in the sky for a short while.
  • Likes fruit. Hates strong sunlight.

The statement "Doesn't seem to be good with them" suggests that he's met girls at some point in his life. And why would he *only* be shy towards women if he's never met another anthro or human? Wouldn't he just be shy towards people in general?

20 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

 

Meanwhile the idea that there are other inhabitants on Angel Island contradicts a mountain range of statements affirming that Knuckles is alone on the Island.

The island's existence has long been a secret because not many people have ever seen it as it is always obscured by clouds. But the Echidna Tribe mysteriously disappeared leaving Knuckles as their lone descendant and guardian of these secrets.

 "Knuckles is the guardian of the Master Emerald, which gives Angel Island its power to float in the sky. He is the last of the Echidnas of the island's native people." - Sonic & Sega All-Star Racing profile.

These only say that Knuckles is the last of the echidna clan, I was simply suggesting that there are other anthros.

20 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

The statement specifically says that he's been *guarding the emerald* all alone, not that he's been on the island all alone.

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Someone might have had to appoint him as the guardian at some point, perhaps before passing away. 

20 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Which would require that, in addition to the snowboarding mountain normally accessible to the citizens of Station Square that Sonic never sees, by sheer coincidence there is a similar resort on Angel Island where Sonic goes snowboarding immediately after hearing about this other unrelated location.  That seems like a much bigger stretch than the idea that Sonic could travel from Angel Island to another place in the Mystic Ruins area.

This fella?

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He doesn't mention a mountain in the Japanese version.

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The entirety of Ice Cap takes place on the same mountain. The top of the mountain from Act 3 is in Act 1.

SonicAdventure_IcecapLeftovers1.png

The bridge from Act 1 is in Act 3.

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Act 2 is situated inside a labyrinthine ice cavern in said mountain.

You're basically saying that the entirety of that level takes place on Mystic Ruin.

Ice Cap, the same location from Sonic 3 which also has you snowboard down a mountain with a mountain range in view of the background.

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ZLmtkKN.jpg

Is somehow on Mystic Ruin. There's no indication GIVEN from the game or extra material that this guy is referring to Ice Cap or that Ice Cap is on Mystic Ruin. The place where the civilian is snowboarding is a different location entirely as far as what we know about Ice Cap is concerned; and what do we know?

That Ice Cap is located on Angel Island.

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All of it. Not some of it, not half of it--all of it.

And there are people occupying that location as evident by the balloon festival held at the village at the end of the level. That village runs down the mountain.

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I mean Red Mountain has a prison that appears to be somewhat recently abandoned since it still has working electricity and machinery. There has to be a government that still pays that prison's electric bill.

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Ok, sure.  Lets take this at face value and see how many logical inconsistencies result.

These Angel Island natives just so happen to have gravity altering contraptions and pneumatic tube transports just like the ones Eggman includes in his bases.

It sure is a coincidence. What's not a coincidence are the teleporters in this area and Ice Cap that are similar to the ones in Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary:

Fs79pNh.gif

Hidden in areas that only Knuckles has access to. PxlaHlo.jpg

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Multiple statements from official sources state Angel Island was hidden by clouds prior to the Death Egg collision.  That means these inhabitants with modern technology, who could communicate with outsiders or leave the island by balloon at any time, intentionally participated in a multi-generation conspiracy to conceal themselves from the surface world.

The Marvel Universe had a location with inhabitants like that called Wakanda, and that was situated on the ground.

20 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

When Eggman came to the island and tricked Knuckles into cooperating with him, he either

A- also deceived all of Angel Island's other inhabitants into allowing him to run amok in their home in order to kill Sonic

B- successfully convinced Knuckles to fight Sonic at such a cost that collateral damage to rest of the populace was considered inconsequential.

They also either have never heard about Eggman or Sonic despite having modern technology that would presumably allow them to know what goes on in the outside world, or they do know about them yet never attempt to dissuade Knuckles from working with Eggman or communicate with him in any way as badniks overrun the place with impunity.

After all, Eggman destroys much of the island over the course of the game, including Carnival Night Zone which Knuckles allows to be flooded in order to kill Sonic.  If Carnival Night was merely an expendable Eggman base, this makes perfect sense; if it was part of a city inhabited by other people, it implies Knuckles is a complete monster.

Easy explanation for all of that would be SEGA not thinking about it, just like how they didn't think about "the split" or putting Blaze in 06 or the moon having a massive hole in it.  And Knuckles is stupid.

Like I said, the manuals don't mention Carvinal Night as a product of Eggman and even mentions the island's "night life", but both the Japanese and Western manuals mention Chemical Plant on West Side Island and Launch Base on Angel Island as Eggman's creations full-stop.

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including Carnival Night Zone which Knuckles allows to be flooded in order to kill Sonic.

The whole thing didn't appear to be flooded, though, just the segments where Sonic and Tails were traversing in the foreground. The buildings in the background aren't affected unlike Angel Island Zone which you can tell was completely on fire.

 

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1 hour ago, MainJP said:

 

That's information relayed from the Sonic 3 manual, though. I only posted that since it's in English.

page18-720px-Sonic3_MD_JP_SonicJam_manua

The information in red translated by Windii:

  • A guardian who protects the Chaos Emeralds of the Floating Island.
  • An echidna of the marsupial family. His nickname is "Knuckle."
  • A short-tempered, reckless type. He is a gentle and kind guy, though.
  • Because he's sincere and docile, he is easily fooled.
  • He doesn't hate girls, but doesn't seem to be very good with them?
  • His hobby is, of course, digging holes. He is a mole, after all.
  • He is good at finding hidden routes.
  • He can fly in the sky for a short while.
  • Likes fruit. Hates strong sunlight.

The statement "Doesn't seem to be good with them" suggests that he's met girls at some point in his life. And why would he *only* be shy towards women if he's never met another anthro or human? Wouldn't he just be shy towards people in general?

These only say that Knuckles is the last of the echidna clan, I was simply suggesting that there are other anthros.

The statement specifically says that he's been *guarding the emerald* all alone, not that he's been on the island all alone.

 

 

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"You can call me Knuckle" does rhyme better. Also, a mole?

 

It's amazing how thought out that bio is.

Quote

Easy explanation for all of that would be SEGA not thinking about it

Ah, there it is.

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

Why arent there more chao around. Cream has two so they arent purely restricted to a garden. It feels like they feed off of emotion and a person's character, figure there would be more like...around

Gooood question.

Did they bring them about from the Ifrit dimension?

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Don't know if this is already a question, but I would love to know about the character's parents more. More so, our "furry" group of characters.

I mean, I know Cream has a mother, but that is the only instance of a parent being shown in the present. (I wonder about where her father is...)

Tikal has a father, and it is mentioned she had a grandmother and mother too.

I think it was mentioned somewhere that Blaze has a father.

Shadow was created artificially.

Sonic was born on Christmas Island. Knuckles just found himself there on Angel Island (I wonder, is he actually from the past?). Silver was born sometime in the future. The rest? No clue.

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8 minutes ago, honey-dew said:

Don't know if this is already a question, but I would love to know about the character's parents more. More so, our "furry" group of characters.

I mean, I know Cream has a mother, but that is the only instance of a parent being shown in the present. (I wonder about where her father is...)

Tikal has a father, and it is mentioned she had a grandmother and mother too.

I think it was mentioned somewhere that Blaze has a father.

Shadow was created artificially.

Sonic was born on Christmas Island. Knuckles just found himself there on Angel Island (I wonder, is he actually from the past?). Silver was born sometime in the future. The rest? No clue.

Tails also grew up on Westside Island and Dr. Nega obviously descended from Eggman in Silver's time.

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53 minutes ago, honey-dew said:

Knuckles just found himself there on Angel Island (I wonder, is he actually from the past?).

Knuckles being born by himself without any family around makes sense considering echidnas lay eggs. He probably just hatched alone, and had nobody but the island's small animals to keep him company.

I guess the animals taught him how to speak? Flickies do talk, both in the Tails Adventure manual and in Sonic 3D Blast's ending cutscene.

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6 hours ago, MainJP said:

The statement "Doesn't seem to be good with them" suggests that he's met girls at some point in his life. And why would he *only* be shy towards women if he's never met another anthro or human? Wouldn't he just be shy towards people in general?

When the game begins, he's been allies with Eggman for some months.  It would be entirely consistent if this exposure was sufficient to get him over a fear of people in general while retaining an uncertainty towards women.  And, again, it makes perfect sense to me that the statement "Knuckles is not good with girls" is intended to convey that he's had no contact with girls while on Angel Island.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

These only say that Knuckles is the last of the echidna clan, I was simply suggesting that there are other anthros.

No, the first document states out right that Angel Island's existence prior to S3&K was a secret, and that Knuckles is the exclusive protector of this secret.  If there's a whole city of other people on the Island there's a whole city of other people who know the secret.  There's no way to reconcile that idea with what the document says.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

The statement specifically says that he's been *guarding the emerald* all alone, not that he's been on the island all alone.

The sentence pretty much loses it's meaning if there are any inhabitants on the Island who have been around as long as Knuckles has been guardian, as any of them would be able to answer the questions he's agonizing over.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

He doesn't mention a mountain in the Japanese version.

Does he go snowboarding down a small hill instead?  It's clearly meant to allude to the boarding segment in Ice Cap.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

You're basically saying that the entirety of that level takes place on Mystic Ruin.

Works for me.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

Ice Cap, the same location from Sonic 3 which also has you snowboard down a mountain with a mountain range in view of the background.

It doesn't look like S3&K's location at all.  That version of Ice Cap Zone consisted entirely of ice structures and crystal prism like objects, without any buildings or wooden fences anywhere in sight.  If they are really the same location why does the one in SA show signs of habitation while the one in S3&K does not?

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

That Ice Cap is located on Angel Island.

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All of it. Not some of it, not half of it--all of it.

I hate to break it to you but Sonic Retro is a fanmade website and there is no citation for those two statements.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

I mean Red Mountain has a prison that appears to be somewhat recently abandoned since it still has working electricity and machinery. There has to be a government that still pays that prison's electric bill.

Geothermal energy is free when you are the sole inhabitant of a volcanic island.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

I mean Red Mountain has a prison that appears to be somewhat recently abandoned since it still has working electricity and machinery. There has to be a government that still pays that prison's electric bill.

You've inserted an "only" into a statement that reads "Because Knuckles knows".  Nothing saying Eggman couldn't build the teleporter in Carnival Night.  All of your arguments against Eggman building Carnival Night rest on omission, not any positive evidence that someone else built it.

6 hours ago, MainJP said:

Easy explanation for all of that would be SEGA not thinking about it,

In other words, SEGA was being consistent when they wrote Knuckles' profile and created SA's version of Ice Cap, but they were being inconsistent when they devised every other aspect of Knuckles' character arc, because the latter contradicts your headcanon.

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5 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

When the game begins, he's been allies with Eggman for some months. 

Days, going by the Japanese manual.

7 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

Works for me.

Doesn't actually work in reality though, since you get there from Angel Island...

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4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Doesn't actually work in reality though, since you get there from Angel Island...

Sand Hill being a cave away from the jungle and 0% of Sky Deck being visible around the Egg Carrier's exterior are far more illogical, yet these are also in the game.

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I know I touched on this above, but since people are discussing his shyness: Knuckles can be shy around girls due to the presence of sapient animals on Angel Island, some of whom - I assume - were girls.

We know the small animals are capable of speech. Not just from manuals or third-party sources, either:

zmLMkzk.png

Considering they also keep lockets with photos of their relatives in SA1, I think it's clear the Flickies (and likely, other small animals) count as sapient "people" in Sonic's world. We know Knuckles knows the animals and is on amicable terms with them; we see him chilling out with them at the beginning of his story in S&K. 

So I don't think his shyness is contradicted by the fact that he was born alone as the last of his kind. Angel Island has no other echidnas, but it's still full of life, and Knuckles didn't grow up there all by himself.

I suppose Knuckles is just bashful around the female animals for whatever reason?

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Sometimes space is weird in video games, some stuff is compressed, some stuff is stretched, but when a game shows you a thing is in a certain place, you should accept that even when it is weird unless you have a damn good reason to think otherwise. Sky deck is still part of the Egg Carrier even if you can't see it in cutscenes or the adventure field, we don't go assuming it's actually somewhere else. When the designers choose to put the entrance to Ice Cap on Angel Island, that is them saying that Ice Cap is on Angel Island.

e: also Knuckles is weird around girls because he is an awkward hormonal teenager.

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2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sometimes space is weird in video games, some stuff is compressed, some stuff is stretched, but when a game shows you a thing is in a certain place, you should accept that even when it is weird unless you have a damn good reason to think otherwise.

My reason is there's an NPC in Station Square who apparently makes regular visits to the area, and in order for him to do that Ice Cap must be somewhere on the ground.

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4 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

My reason is there's an NPC in Station Square who apparently makes regular visits to the area, and in order for him to do that Ice Cap must be somewhere on the ground.

Well, maybe.

Is it possible that, by this point in time, Angel Island is well-known enough that some people just fly there?

I know it sounds like a reach, but I'm just trying to reconcile these things and make them both make sense.

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6 minutes ago, Ivo-goji said:

My reason is there's an NPC in Station Square who apparently makes regular visits to the area, and in order for him to do that Ice Cap must be somewhere on the ground.

Pretty sure more than one snowy mountain is allowed to exist.

And if you don't buy that, we could pretend the crevasse Sonic jumps to escape the avalanche is the border between Angel Island's Ice Cap and an unnamed snowy mountain on the mainland and they just happened to line up when the island fell.

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13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

When the game begins, he's been allies with Eggman for some months.  

Days, not months.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

No, the first document states out right that Angel Island's existence prior to S3&K was a secret, and that Knuckles is the exclusive protector of this secret.  If there's a whole city of other people on the Island there's a whole city of other people who know the secret.  There's no way to reconcile that idea with what the document says.

Like I said, Wakanda.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

The sentence pretty much loses it's meaning if there are any inhabitants on the Island who have been around as long as Knuckles has been guardian, as any of them would be able to answer the questions he's agonizing over.

Not necessarily. The inhabitants don't have to be NEAR Knuckles, we can see clear as day that no one else is around where the Master Emerald alter is located. Angel Island is as large as a continent with its many different geographic locations and mountain ranges.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Does he go snowboarding down a small hill instead?  It's clearly meant to allude to the boarding segment in Ice Cap.

Except he doesn't go to Angel Island which is where the entrance to Ice Cap is...and Ice Cap itself.

He's referring to a different place completely unrelated to Sonic's destination. He's probably headed to Ice Mountain, which is different from Ice Cap in that it's not on Angel Island.

21264.png

 

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Works for me.

Ice Cap is on Angel Island.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

It doesn't look like S3&K's location at all.

It's almost as if the two games have different art styles.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

That version of Ice Cap Zone consisted entirely of ice structures and crystal prism like objects, without any buildings or wooden fences anywhere in sight.  

It's almost as if the two games have different art styles.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

If they are really the same location why does the one in SA show signs of habitation while the one in S3&K does not?

Let's just ignore how large this location is.

YrlKN7g.png

And how Sonic travels to a part of Ice Cap that's surrounded by glaciers.

OeP6tmv.png

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

 hate to break it to you but Sonic Retro is a fanmade website and there is no citation for those two statements.

No shit? Like I said, what we know about Ice Cap is that it takes place on Angel Island and there's no reason to assume otherwise when the games map shows the entrance to be on Angel Island like one would expect.

bnTxgrn.png

Angel Island is everything past the big wall with the wind tunnel in Mystic Ruins. Red Mountain, Ice Cap, and the fuckhuge non-explorable forest below the emerald shrine are all part of Angel Island.

Also the snowy mountain is only visible ON ANGEL ISLAND and not from any part of Mystic Ruins.

Sro5uaz.png

When you look at the map in the game and from the guide books, what direction everything is located at is pretty clear.

The cave entrance that's on the island is located west of the cave from Mystic Ruin. Look how far separated everything on Angel Island is from Mystic Ruin:

b5abqgs.png

Look how far east of the west cave the Ice Cap cave is. It's going in the same direction as Red Mountain which would mean they're close together.

OBsCU9n.png

Mate, even the Sega Saturn Magazine that covered the game all the way to release and interviewed the devs have said that it's the same place.

R6awa9O.png

sUg4Ls2.png

The red header starts with "where's this scene!?" "The action field “Ice Cap” is a stage that was also available in the “Sonic 3”. This snowboard scene is said to be at the end of the stage ...?"

And then the vertical blurb on the right says this.

o6hF5fa.png

Everything points to SA's Ice Cap being the same bloody place as the one in 3.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Geothermal energy is free when you are the sole inhabitant of a volcanic island.

Those villages suggest that he isn't.

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

Nothing saying Eggman couldn't build the teleporter in Carnival Night.  

Except the same one exists in Ice Cap, and they function exactly the same way as the one's in Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary. The teleportation effects and sound effects are even the exact same.

Each one matching the design aesthetic as the location they're in.

Fs79pNh.gif

Cg7P8l5.gif

13 hours ago, Ivo-goji said:

In other words, SEGA was being consistent when they wrote Knuckles' profile and created SA's version of Ice Cap, but they were being inconsistent when they devised every other aspect of Knuckles' character arc, because the latter contradicts your headcanon.

Just like how Ice Cap no longer takes place on Angel Island because it contradicts yours.

 

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

And if you don't buy that, we could pretend the crevasse Sonic jumps to escape the avalanche is the border between Angel Island's Ice Cap and an unnamed snowy mountain on the mainland and they just happened to line up when the island fell.

The apparent crevasse is connected via walls.

cFl8E3Y.png

Looks more like it just sorta exists.

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9 hours ago, DabigRG said:

"You can call me Knuckle" does rhyme better. Also, a mole?

That's not all, in the original Japanese version of the Sonic OVA, Knuckles is referred to as a mole, not an echidna. 

f21875b4ffa63a9eba865b03adaf9c505554c550

In Sonic Battle, Sonic calls Knuckles a "spiky-headed mole". It's a play on the Japanese term for echidna, which literally translates as "needle-mole".

kdoeAj6.png

Quote

Ah, there it is.

Yep.

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15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Like I said, Wakanda.

The reality is that those documents never reference other inhabitants being on Angel Island because SEGA considered Knuckles the only one there.  That's why "Knuckles was born alone on Angel Island" instead of being born among Angel Island's non-Echidna population and why he "lived his life in solitude" instead of living in walking distance from a city full of other people.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Not necessarily. The inhabitants don't have to be NEAR Knuckles, we can see clear as day that no one else is around where the Master Emerald alter is located.

Literally the only way for Knuckles' dialogue in SA to make sense is if no one else is on the Island knows who he is or why the Island is in the sky and have gone their whole existence without ever communicating information to Knuckles that would meaningfully effect his actions.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

He's referring to a different place completely unrelated to Sonic's destination. He's probably headed to Ice Mountain

Never featured in Sonic Adventure. 

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

It's almost as if the two games have different art styles

Is it only a cosmetic difference or is it supposed to be a narrative decision that effects how we view Angel Island?  Because if it's the former then it's pretty meaningless for interpreting Knuckles' character and history.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Let's just ignore how large this location is.

YrlKN7g.png

And how Sonic travels to a part of Ice Cap that's surrounded by glaciers.

OeP6tmv.png

Given that you also have no problem ignoring how neither the visuals in Ice Cap nor external views of Angel Island in Sonic Adventure allow for the presence of an extensive mountain range or a body of water with glaciers floating in it to fit on the Island?  Makes perfect sense to ignore those details.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

what we know about Ice Cap is that it takes place on Angel Island and there's no reason to assume otherwise when the games map shows the entrance to be on Angel Island like one would expect.

The map only shows the entrance to Ice Cap. The map of the Mystic Ruins area also shows the entrance to Sand Hill being located right next to the cart that takes the player from the jungle to the train station.  Is the entire desert area between the train station and the jungle?  Does the cart zoom underground at high speed to cross the desert in a timely manner so the characters never notice the distance they've traveled?  Is that any more problematic than the characters accessing an area on the surface from a cave on Angel Island?  Or any of the other ways Sonic Adventure plays fast and loose with how in-game locations relate to each other?

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Mate, even the Sega Saturn Magazine that covered the game all the way to release and interviewed the devs have said that it's the same place.

We also know from other interviews that the developers worked on the action stages first and only determined their place in the story, what characters could access them, the order they are encountered, and their place in the adventure fields relatively late in the design process.  Which is why I have no problem supposing SA's Ice Cap was originally envisioned as a place on the surface.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

The red header starts with "where's this scene!?" "The action field “Ice Cap” is a stage that was also available in the “Sonic 3”. This snowboard scene is said to be at the end of the stage ...?"

And then the vertical blurb on the right says this.

o6hF5fa.png

Everything points to SA's Ice Cap being the same bloody place as the one in 3.

Thematically it is the same stage as the one in Sonic 3.  Which does not mean it is literally the same location as the original Ice Cap in a narrative sense, any more than the constant recycling of stages named "Green Hill" in games after Sonic 1 imply all of those games take place on South Island (witness Forces placing Green Hill in a landlocked location :P).

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Those villages suggest that he isn't.

Given how Knuckles doesn't know that the villages exist and they don't seem to know that Knuckles exists, and they have never impacted the story at all in dozens of instances where they logically should?  Not convinced.

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Except the same one exists in Ice Cap, and they function exactly the same way as the one's in Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary.

They also function the same way as the teleporters Eggman built on the Egg Carrier, and the teleporters that connect the Chao Gardens.

The pad-shaped teleporters in Carnival Night and Ice Cap actually look more like the ones Eggman created, for that matter.

300px-SonicAdventure_EggCarrierWarp.png

The ones in Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary- those that have definitely always been on Angel Island- look rather different.

c6885fe23b1f793f4dca268f4e260490.jpg

 

15 hours ago, MainJP said:

Just like how Ice Cap no longer takes place on Angel Island because it contradicts yours.

Nope. Knuckles being the sole inhabitant of Angel Island is canon, confirmed by multiple official statements from SEGA, not my head canon.

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I know the 06 game said tears of pain would make Iblis be freed from Elise, but I wonder...

Was Elise allowed near onions? Did Elise cry at her dad's funeral? Was Elise allowed near ultra hot sauce? Was Elise allowed near scary or sad movies? Come on, Sega, we need to know these things!

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