Star Wars

[Ryannumber1gamer]

39 minutes ago, Marcello said:

I disagree. Holdo didn't have to tell Poe anything. There's a chain of command. Who is Poe that he has to be told everything? Dude just got demoted for ignoring orders and getting a bunch of people killed. Then he decided to secretly start his own mission, that would lead to the deaths of even more. And when Poe did find out she had a plan, he decided to mutiny. Dude was acting like a brash idiot, though luckily the movie knew that.

Spoiler

 

Because the entirety of the rebel fleet was currently being chased down by the Empire, all of them were facing certain death, they literally demolished their entire chain of command in one fell swoop excluding Lela who manages to survive barely with the Force, and when directly asked if they have a plan to get out of the situation, everyone, not just Poe is expected to put blind faith in someone who literally just says they have no plan for escaping when they literally do have a plan to escape. Literally the entire situation could've been avoided if Holdo turned around to all of the rebels and said "Here's the plan, we're going to distract them while we all escape on smaller carrier ships". Simple, easy. Instead, she lets the majority of the rebel morale die because they're all expected to blindly follow her into what they think is certain death.

And yes, there's a chain of command, but when your entire chain gets slaughtered by the empire at once and the rebels are hanging on by a tiny fucking thread, that's a good time to throw away comamnd bullshit and ensure everyone there's a solid foundational plan for escape.

 

 

[Marcello]

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Because the entirety of the rebel fleet was currently being chased down by the Empire, all of them were facing certain death, they literally demolished their entire chain of command in one fell swoop excluding Lela who manages to survive barely with the Force, and when directly asked if they have a plan to get out of the situation, everyone, not just Poe is expected to put blind faith in someone who literally just says they have no plan for escaping when they literally do have a plan to escape. Literally the entire situation could've been avoided if Holdo turned around to all of the rebels and said "Here's the plan, we're going to distract them while we all escape on smaller carrier ships". Simple, easy. Instead, she lets the majority of the rebel morale die because they're all expected to blindly follow her into what they think is certain death.

And yes, there's a chain of command, but when your entire chain gets slaughtered by the empire at once and the rebels are hanging on by a tiny fucking thread, that's a good time to throw away comamnd bullshit and ensure everyone there's a solid foundational plan for escape.

Because she didn't know who could be trusted. And in the end, she was right. Poe told Finn about the plan, which led to the First Order finding out, which led to those deaths!

[Ryannumber1gamer]

30 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Because she didn't know who could be trusted. And in the end, she was right. Poe told Finn about the plan, which led to the First Order finding out, which led to those deaths!

Spoiler

Uh...no. Finn and Rose going to the Casino planet ended up being a literal direct consequence of her keeping the plans secret. If she'd spoke up to begin with, the two wouldn't have to go to the Casino Planet, they wouldn't be caught by the code-breaker, they wouldn't be backstabbed and captured by the First Order, therefore making it an entire non-issue. If she was just up-front from the beginning, literally the entire destruction of nearly the entire rebel fleet could've been avoided because The First Order never would've captured the two to get the info in the first place.

 

[SupahBerry]

The one big issue I have surrounding Last Jedi's overblown controversy is that people make it seem like this is the first time Star Wars had been ruined for them. I thought the prequels and special editions covered that already. People can defend the prequels, sure, but it's come to a point where some outright deny such negativity ever happened. 

As a fan who loves TPM since it came on video, I can tell you that it's true. There were thousands that gave Phantom Menace very bad rep when it debuted, and arguably even more so with Attack of the Clones. I felt as guilty for liking these films as some of you might feel for liking TLJ. And I could go in great detail on what they've said about the prequels, but I'll just cut to the chase. In the Raspberry awards, both TPM and AOTC were nominated seven razzies each, PM won one, and AOTC won two-- and ROTH won a razzie, too.

Now, how many razzies was TLJ nominated for? Zero. No, don't say Disney paid them to keep their hands off it.

So at this point, the Star Wars fanbase has become even more divisive than during the infamous prequel era. How could we have possibly gotten even worse than Attack of the Clones?! I can understand if the sequel films have a completely different set of problems from the ones that plagued the prequels. But what I'm ultimately trying to say is that what makes The Last Jedi so horribly different from the other dozen times Star Wars sucked?!?!

[Marcello]

6 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Uh...no. Finn and Rose going to the Casino planet ended up being a literal direct consequence of her keeping the plans secret. If she'd spoke up to begin with, the two wouldn't have to go to the Casino Planet, they wouldn't be caught by the code-breaker, they wouldn't be backstabbed and captured by the First Order, therefore making it an entire non-issue. If she was just up-front from the beginning, literally the entire destruction of nearly the entire rebel fleet could've been avoided because The First Order never would've captured the two to get the info in the first place.

1

You can't blame Holdo for their dumb decisions or the fact that they talked about their secret plans in front of DJ, a person they already knew didn't have any loyalty to them.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

16 minutes ago, Marcello said:

You can't blame Holdo for their dumb decisions or the fact that they talked about their secret plans in front of DJ, a person they already knew didn't have any loyalty to them.

Spoiler

 

I will blame Holdo when it was her own absolutely imbecilic decision in the first place to withhold crucial information to the rebels who were facing near certain death and make them believe they were about to die because they had no plan. Of fucking course Rose and Finn were going to do something because to them, it was either go and do this, or face death. 

Literally all she had to do was say she had a plan to get them all out safely. Rebel morale doesn't fall, everyone remains on her side, they let her do whatever nice and calmly. Instead, she says they have no plan, she lets them all believe they'll likely die in a few hours, she lets them believe that there's no other option but this plan, and she ultimately could've avoided literally everything if she said "We're fine, here's the plan". That is absolutely horrible leadership in every single sense of the word to let your crew believe they're going to die and you're doing fucking nothing about it. It was her own absolutely idiotic decision that led to Rose and Finn's "dumb decisions" which at best, is talking about their plans in front of DJ...which would've been avoided once more had she just said from the very start they weren't in danger and she had a solid escape plan.

This is the one thing that is absolutely mind-boggling in the movie, the most absolutely asinine and desperate attempt at a fake-out. "Oops! Gotcha! Finn and Rose don't save the day because there was a escape plan all along, but she just never said a word about it!". 

 

 

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

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I will blame Holdo when it was her own absolutely imbecilic decision in the first place to withhold crucial information to the rebels who were facing near certain death and make them believe they were about to die because they had no plan. Of fucking course Rose and Finn were going to do something because to them, it was either go and do this, or face death. 

Literally all she had to do was say she had a plan to get them all out safely. Rebel morale doesn't fall, everyone remains on her side, they let her do whatever nice and calmly. Instead, she says they have no plan, she lets them all believe they'll likely die in a few hours, she lets them believe that there's no other option but this plan, and she ultimately could've avoided literally everything if she said "We're fine, here's the plan". That is absolutely horrible leadership in every single sense of the word to let your crew believe they're going to die and you're doing fucking nothing about it. It was her own absolutely idiotic decision that led to Rose and Finn's "dumb decisions" which at best, is talking about their plans in front of DJ...which would've been avoided once more had she just said from the very start they weren't in danger and she had a solid escape plan.

This is the one thing that is absolutely mind-boggling in the movie, the most absolutely asinine and desperate attempt at a fake-out. "Oops! Gotcha! Finn and Rose don't save the day because there was a escape plan all along, but she just never said a word about it!". 

 

 

Spoiler

Even letting it be known that there was a plan in motion would put the empire on higher alert. I understand fully why Holdo did what she did. The only real problem I have with her is fact that she's not a very interesting or consistent character in her own right.

 

[DarkRula]

The biggest problem I had with the film wasn't Holdo or the actions that came from that. It was the fact that we still get bad guys who like to toy with their prey before fully striking. Yet here it wasn't just one scene. It was the ENTIRE movie.
The interactions between characters were good [I can't go beyond that due to some I didn't much like]. The Canto Bight stuff certainly didn't prove useful in its end result, but was definitely a good example of world building. Even exploring more of Ahch To.

I think when I wrote my review after watching it at the cinema I was perhaps a little too positive from leaning into the hype. Once I get round to watching it again, I'm sure I'll accurately be able to place it on my list - of which The Phantom Menace sits on top.

[Patticus]

10 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

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Because the entirety of the rebel fleet was currently being chased down by the Empire, all of them were facing certain death, they literally demolished their entire chain of command in one fell swoop excluding Lela who manages to survive barely with the Force, and when directly asked if they have a plan to get out of the situation, everyone, not just Poe is expected to put blind faith in someone who literally just says they have no plan for escaping when they literally do have a plan to escape. Literally the entire situation could've been avoided if Holdo turned around to all of the rebels and said "Here's the plan, we're going to distract them while we all escape on smaller carrier ships". Simple, easy. Instead, she lets the majority of the rebel morale die because they're all expected to blindly follow her into what they think is certain death.

And yes, there's a chain of command, but when your entire chain gets slaughtered by the empire at once and the rebels are hanging on by a tiny fucking thread, that's a good time to throw away comamnd bullshit and ensure everyone there's a solid foundational plan for escape.

 

Spoiler

As soon as Poe became aware of the plan, he broadcast it on an unsecured channel to Finn, and the First Order quickly became aware of it. He had already sacrificed the Resistance's invaluable last bomber wing in a brazen act of insubordination, which rightly got him demoted, and then this. Holdo was absolutely right not to trust him.

And it doesn't matter that the Resistance was "facing certain doom" - there was a solid plan to escape, that would have gone off without a hitch were it not for Poe learning it. There was no reason to discard the chain of command.

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

9 hours ago, SupahBerry said:

The one big issue I have surrounding Last Jedi's overblown controversy is that people make it seem like this is the first time Star Wars had been ruined for them. I thought the prequels and special editions covered that already. People can defend the prequels, sure, but it's come to a point where some outright deny such negativity ever happened. 

I think the easy explanation is that a lot people weren't as disappointed with the prequels. Heck, perhaps Last Jedi is the first time Star Wars truly felt ruined for them. It's certainly how it's felt for the likes of moi.

I mean, statistically speaking, it has been noted that Last Jedi has a lower audience score across the board on numerous fronts compared to even the prequels.

Also, considering the newcomers of the franchise, that could just as easily be the first ruination for them too. I mean, it's really not hard to see how that's a plausible case.

7 hours ago, Josh said:

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Even letting it be known that there was a plan in motion would put the empire on higher alert. I understand fully why Holdo did what she did. The only real problem I have with her is fact that she's not a very interesting or consistent character in her own right.

 

And yet in her vast stupidity, that's what leads to the First Order finding out about it thanks to the time wasting Casino nonsense.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Sonic Heroes said:

 

And yet in her vast stupidity, that's what leads to the First Order finding out about it thanks to the time wasting Casino nonsense.

This means that the plan would have gone off without a hitch, had Poe done nothing. He was the idiot in this scenario. Obviously how Holdo chose to act was risky, but we can gleam from this conversation anything she could have chosen to do would end poorly. It's part of what being in a difficult situation means.

This also isn't really a response to what I said, or even the following conversation.

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

11 hours ago, SupahBerry said:

But what I'm ultimately trying to say is that what makes The Last Jedi so horribly different from the other dozen times Star Wars sucked?!?!

Well aside from more people agreeing it sucks, for starters, the prequels didn't affect original characters or rather, their futures, alter their characterization presently, etc. Last Jedi not only did those things, which in and of itself isn't bad, but the execution flopped bad.

Also, Last Jedi has the extra baggage and backlash of being part of what the extended universe got axed for. The prequels weren't. So needless to say, these newer films are going to have quite an extra from people who can't ignore them and just stick with the extended universe which was dubbed officially non canon. Force Awakens at least handled a lot of matters and fears with better taste than its sequel, which got a bit too heavy handed for its own good frequently.

[SupahBerry]

57 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Sonic Heroes said:

Well aside from more people agreeing it sucks, for starters, the prequels didn't affect original characters or rather, their futures, alter their characterization presently, etc. Last Jedi not only did those things, which in and of itself isn't bad, but the execution flopped bad.

While I many applauded the prequels' portrayals of characters like Obi Wan and Boba and Palpatine, the same hasn't been said for others like Yoda and especially Anakin.

Yoda is a matter of lacking the wow factor he had back in ESB, where he starts out as "This crazy old muppet can't possibly be a wise powerful Jedi!"  and then proceeds to  deliver some of the chilling lines and messages in the entire series. He was fine in TPM with the "Fear leads to the Dark Side" speech, but then comes AOTC, and many debated on if this new CGI, suddenly becoming off-the-walls saber swinging goblin was a good decision for his character. Although, I mostly chalk this up as purist being bias towards wanting Yoda's story to remain a mystery, and prequel Yoda is an incredible character on his own.

Anakin is a different story. Long story short, a lot of older fans really don't want to associate Darth Vader with an obnoxious, whiny man with an embarrassingly written romantic subplot. These two parts are the most damning:

Now material outside the trilogy may have worked wonders on fleshing out Anakin character, like  Rouge One and the Clone Wars. (Which has been spared from the EU retcon, mind one)  But for some, it can't excuse what's been already done. Supposed the Resistance show feature old characters. If they're written better, would everyone just go ahead and forgive their actions in TLJ?

 

I will give you this, the Last Jedi has ruined more original characters, including the main protagonist himself. EP. 1-3 has only ruined one.

[Patticus]

New films cast old characters, scenes, lines in a new light, providing greater insight, revealing motivations, and generally improving the entire franchise.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

12 hours ago, Patticus said:

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As soon as Poe became aware of the plan, he broadcast it on an unsecured channel to Finn, and the First Order quickly became aware of it. He had already sacrificed the Resistance's invaluable last bomber wing in a brazen act of insubordination, which rightly got him demoted, and then this. Holdo was absolutely right not to trust him.

And it doesn't matter that the Resistance was "facing certain doom" - there was a solid plan to escape, that would have gone off without a hitch were it not for Poe learning it. There was no reason to discard the chain of command.

 

Spoiler

And yet if she said the plan from the very start, Finn and Rose wouldn't have fucked off to the Casino plan, and Poe wouldn't have said the message on an unsecured channel. Yes, it's stupid Finn and co did that, but their stupidity was a literal direct consequence of her own stupidity. It wasn't "Poe learning it" that fucked it all up, it was the fact Poe and co already began their own plan because their "leader" at the time insisted they didn't have anything to get out of the situation, leading to the group doing what they believed was their only hope of survival for everyone. 

You can argue all you want about Poe and Finn's stupid actions, but literally none of that would've happened in the first place had Holdo said from the very beginning what their plan was. If she had, then Poe and Finn wouldn't have thrown their last ditch casino plan into action. Trying to claim that "Holdo was right in not trusting Poe" doesn't mean much when the only reason Poe fucked it up in the first place was in an attempt to call off the plan him and Finn first created because of Holdo's idiotic decision in the first place.

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 hours ago, Patticus said:

New films cast old characters, scenes, lines in a new light, providing greater insight, revealing motivations, and generally improving the entire franchise.

I wish Last Jedi had done that. Old characters in Episode 8 were handled atrociously. Either shunted off, put of commission for most the movie, made laughing stocks of, just there to be Porg hummers, or used as a springboard for newer characters. And that's just scratching the surface with Last Jedi's character problems.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

17 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Sonic Heroes said:

I wish Last Jedi had done that. Old characters in Episode 8 were handled atrociously. Either shunted off, put of commission for most the movie, made laughing stocks of, just there to be Porg hummers, or used as a springboard for newer characters. And that's just scratching the surface with Last Jedi's character problems.

*Porg Hummer*

Now I’m imagining them driving those Star Wars character themed car toys I found in Best Buy except giant sized.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

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And yet if she said the plan from the very start, Finn and Rose wouldn't have fucked off to the Casino plan, and Poe wouldn't have said the message on an unsecured channel. Yes, it's stupid Finn and co did that, but their stupidity was a literal direct consequence of her own stupidity. It wasn't "Poe learning it" that fucked it all up, it was the fact Poe and co already began their own plan because their "leader" at the time insisted they didn't have anything to get out of the situation, leading to the group doing what they believed was their only hope of survival for everyone. 

You can argue all you want about Poe and Finn's stupid actions, but literally none of that would've happened in the first place had Holdo said from the very beginning what their plan was. If she had, then Poe and Finn wouldn't have thrown their last ditch casino plan into action. Trying to claim that "Holdo was right in not trusting Poe" doesn't mean much when the only reason Poe fucked it up in the first place was in an attempt to call off the plan him and Finn first created because of Holdo's idiotic decision in the first place.

 

Are we just going to keep ignoring the fact that the plan leaked as soon as someone was told about it? The empire's boot on your neck means that you cannot openly discuss things like that. Most of you criticize this moment are simply not thinking about it from every perspective. It makes some sort of sense for Poe to act rashly, but it also makes some sort of sense for Holdo to keep the plan on the down low. That's the tragedy of it all. That situation turns out ugly despite everyone doing things that make sense at the time.

You guys mumbling about how they could have done this or that are speaking with the benefit of hindsight that the characters didn't have. This doesn't make the movie flawed or mean there are plotholes.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

7 minutes ago, Josh said:

You guys mumbling about how they could have done this or that are speaking with the benefit of hindsight that the characters didn't have. This doesn't make the movie flawed or mean there are plotholes.

Just because something is "realistic" or could've happened in real life doesn't make it good writing though.

 

8 minutes ago, Josh said:

Are we just going to keep ignoring the fact that the plan leaked as soon as someone was told about it?

Actually, the plan hadn't even been completely told, and mind you, this was at a point where people were consumed with terror thanks to a shoddy leader effort by Holdo, and them not letting anyone evacuate earlier, without even hinting at a plan until that very last moment. Not to mention, it came as a bad plan until Leia mentioned the Salt Hoth planet. Poe even admits to it being a plan that could work when he knows the full context, but becuse Hold was stupidly stubborn, he got antsy and desperate, had no reason to trust her, and thus contacted Finn and Rose.

Yet another problem thanks to Holdo.

11 minutes ago, Josh said:

The empire's boot on your neck means that you cannot openly discuss things like that.

God forbid you actually try and give an actual rousing assurance that there's a plan if you actually have one at least. Instead of spouting off generic peace and hope BS in the first place like Holdo did. According to Rose, she had to contain several people terrfied enough tot ry and jump ship. Holdo did a terrible job in manifesting enough confidence to prevent the mutiny.

 

13 minutes ago, Josh said:

It makes some sort of sense for Poe to act rashly, but it also makes some sort of sense for Holdo to keep the plan on the down low.

Why exactly? If it were fear that there may be a spy then how come Leia never brought up that possibility instead of the wierd-ass "cloaking through hyperspace" plot device, as if that's even a new thing? That's contradictory writing, especially since they never before suspect anyone on board.

Not to mention the little nonchalant chat she and Leia have about Poe after Leia KO'ed him, which suggests Holdo didn't even really doubt his loyalties either, which makes her keeping him in the dark all the more pointless.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Can someone explain to me how exactly the plan would've been leaked? Because surely if there was a spy in the rebels, then they would've had far more than enough time even when the ships were being boarded to alert the Empire that "oh hey, they finally announced the escape plan - the big ship is a distraction, aim for the little ships".

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Sonic Heroes said:

Just because something is "realistic" or could've happened in real life doesn't make it good writing though.

So good writing would be the characters understanding the entire situation from the go, including any bumps in the road or traps the villains laid, an acting according? Are you here for a story or a power fantasy? 

I know it's the latter, since that's how Star Wars fans are, but I just want to see if you'll admit it. You're citing characters making mistakes as flaws in the writing. 

Holdo isn't the best leader, because she wasn't prepared to be put in the leader's position in the first place. She makes the assumption that Poe would mouth off if he knew what was going on, which she was right about. Holdo not inspiring confidence as a leader is absolutely true which is why it makes sense Poe did what he did. Holdo isn't cut out for the leader position because she's not supposed to be in it. Leia smooths things over pretty easily because she's a proper leader, but I guess this movie ruined her or something? Tell me what else Youtube told you about this movie. 

Poe makes rash decisions because he panics, yes, but you're not considering everyone on the ship is panicking, including Holdo, because the Empire had their boot on the neck of the resistance and they are all literal hours away from certain death while the actual leader is in a coma.  

With some of you guys's logic you should be pinning the blame on the first order for chasing the resistance in the first place and throwing them into a panic by taking their leader out of commission. 

3 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Can someone explain to me how exactly the plan would've been leaked? Because surely if there was a spy in the rebels, then they would've had far more than enough time even when the ships were being boarded to alert the Empire that "oh hey, they finally announced the escape plan - the big ship is a distraction, aim for the little ships".

I'm not saying the plan would have leaked if Holdo had told them earlier, but the concern that it would informs her actions and causes her to make a flawed decision. If she had told them earlier the plan has a less likely chance of being leaked than when it actually happened, sure, but Holdo doesn't know what's going to happen in the movie. She doesn't have a wikipedia summary in her hand. None of the characters do.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

10 minutes ago, Josh said:

I'm not saying the plan would have leaked if Holdo had told them earlier, but the concern that it would informs her actions and causes her to make a flawed decision. If she had told them earlier the plan has a less likely chance of being leaked than when it actually happened, sure, but Holdo doesn't know what's going to happen in the movie. She doesn't have a wikipedia summary in her hand. None of the characters do.

So the best alternative is risk a mutiny, cause all of your soldiers to panic, something made clear by Rose before her and Finn even set off on their quest as she had to stop deserters, and let said soldiers' morale die because you have an unfounded fear of the plan leaking despite it not being brought up in the movie proper and the fact even if there was a spy, they would've leaked the plans anyway as soon as said spy found out they were on a ship to escape.

Uh, that isn't a "hindsight wikipedia summary", that's common fucking sense that the cons of said action vastly vastly outweigh the absolutely unfounded pro of it. Yes, Holdo doesn't know what's going to happen in the movie, but she does fucking know that her army is facing death, their leader is wounded hurting their morale badly, and she's risking a mutiny, yet her game plan is to keep it quiet over an unfounded fear that doesn't even up coming true had it not been for her vastly idiotic attempt to keep it under wraps in the first place.

You see, I'd get it being a mistake if there's was a legitimate rhyme and reason to the mistake itself. If she had a genuine reason to suspect there being a mole in the Rebels, if her plan hinged on being secretive til the very end, etc. But there's none of that, literally none. Her action makes way for multiple more problems, ones that anyone in the moment could see from a mile away, and yet since there's no build-up, no explanation, and no climax to this "rebel spy" idea, it comes off as her doing idiotic shit for completely paranoid and unfounded reasons as opposed to a legitimate mistake caused by legitimate reasons. 

And like, I don't know why I'm being included in this whole band of "people blaming the writing for bad writing" (and if that's not the case, feel free to clarify that I'm not). Because as I said long before this conversation began - I actually like the film, and thought a lot of the twists were actually pretty well done to split itself off from the samey nature of TFA. But in this instance, it's one of the clear attempts at throwing in a shocking "twist" by having Finn and Rose's plot amount to absolutely nothing other than screwing the rebels over further instead of having the two successfully win the day. 

[Patticus]

2 hours ago, Jovahexeon Sonic Heroes said:

I wish Last Jedi had done that. Old characters in Episode 8 were handled atrociously. Either shunted off, put of commission for most the movie, made laughing stocks of, just there to be Porg hummers, or used as a springboard for newer characters. And that's just scratching the surface with Last Jedi's character problems.

Every film in the series does that in some way - the originals, the prequels, the sequels, the stand-alones, even the cartoons; they all interrelate and build on each other. There are patterns in the fabric of the lore they all contribute to, cycles, echoes. There is meaning that may not become apparent until years later.

For example, take the Mortis arc in TCW: When the Son learns of Anakin's possible dark side future, and the Emperor, he essentially suggests a future without Jedi or Sith, which is exactly what Luke in TLJ seeks. Mortis also ties into Rebels, though as I've not yet seen that show, I don't know in what way, though I've heard positive things about the link.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Patticus said:

he essentially suggests a future without Jedi or Sith, which is exactly what Luke in TLJ seeks

This is one of the aspects I absolutely love in Last Jedi. I love how they finally gave a proper establishment to the fact the Jedi were pretty much as corrupt as the Sith were and weren't looking for balance but actually wanted themselves as the only Force users. It felt somewhat weird to have that established in the prequels because the original trilogy IIRC didn't even touch on these aspects much (obviously, due to the fact it was made long before the prequels) so to finally have it brought back into relevance in a way that ties it all together I thought was really cool.

[Wraith]

12 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

So the best alternative is risk a mutiny, cause all of your soldiers to panic, something made clear by Rose before her and Finn even set off on their quest as she had to stop deserters, and let said soldiers' morale die because you have an unfounded fear of the plan leaking despite it not being brought up in the movie proper and the fact even if there was a spy, they would've leaked the plans anyway as soon as said spy found out they were on a ship to escape.

Uh, that isn't a "hindsight wikipedia summary", that's common fucking sense that the cons of said action vastly vastly outweigh the absolutely unfounded pro of it. Yes, Holdo doesn't know what's going to happen in the movie, but she does fucking know that her army is facing death, their leader is wounded hurting their morale badly, and she's risking a mutiny, yet her game plan is to keep it quiet over an unfounded fear that doesn't even up coming true had it not been for her vastly idiotic attempt to keep it under wraps in the first place.

You see, I'd get it being a mistake if there's was a legitimate rhyme and reason to the mistake itself. If she had a genuine reason to suspect there being a mole in the Rebels, if her plan hinged on being secretive til the very end, etc. But there's none of that, literally none. Her action makes way for multiple more problems, ones that anyone in the moment could see from a mile away, and yet since there's no build-up, no explanation, and no climax to this "rebel spy" idea, it comes off as her doing idiotic shit for completely paranoid and unfounded reasons as opposed to a legitimate mistake caused by legitimate reasons. 

And like, I don't know why I'm being included in this whole band of "people blaming the writing for bad writing" (and if that's not the case, feel free to clarify that I'm not). Because as I said long before this conversation began - I actually like the film, and thought a lot of the twists were actually pretty well done to split itself off from the samey nature of TFA. But in this instance, it's one of the clear attempts at throwing in a shocking "twist" by having Finn and Rose's plot amount to absolutely nothing other than screwing the rebels over further instead of having the two successfully win the day. 

Now see, you're actually making some good arguments here. For me, though, I see how many people are deserting the ship regardless due to the situation and I can understand the paranoia on Holdo's part. If they left and got in the Empire's hands somehow or they left and mentioned the plan to the wrong person(which is exactly what happens with Finn) then suddenly the plan is shot. 

Let's consider the alternative. She tells everybody what the plan is. People are disillusioned anyway due to how grim the situation is and some of them desert. The First Order catches even one of them and makes them spill the beans. What happened in the movie is just one of so many ways this situation absolutely would have gone south to me. It hurts that the situation broke down, but it's what happens when you get caught in a grim situation. Your heroes don't always get to say gotcha and get out unscathed. It honestly feels to me like you're looking for that.

Spoiler

This is ignoring the fact that almost every named character in this movie DOES get out unscathed and that's actually one of my problems with this movie, but I already feel like I'm on another planet when I hear SSMB talk about this movie anyway. Don't feel like going into what I felt this movie did right and wrong and getting into a 4 hour argument about it.

I think some elements of this plot are underdeveloped or rushed, but I don't think it's any one singular character's fault.