How would YOU rewrite the characters?

[Fire-N-Space]

Now in 2020 I would write Amy as she was from 2000 - 2009 where she is madly attracted to Sonic in every way and not what we have now which is a hammer shaped to look like a girl.

The Zeti should be a bigger threat than Eggman and not lose after just one hit.

[Miles Storzillo]

On 7/18/2020 at 4:43 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Amy with less/more crush.

I mean, they already did that.  Ever since Lost World Amy still had her crush on Sonic, but whenever they converse it’s normal instead of...  ”This time there’s no way out of marrying me”, or even cringier, “I was afraid I’d never get to flirt with you again” not to mention she stops following him around.  And that’s especially noticeable with Boom Amy.  There’s a reason it’s nearly unanimously agreed she’s better than her Heroes-Generations counterpart.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 7/18/2020 at 6:17 AM, batson said:

I can't be the only one who whenever ancient threads like these are revived feel compelled to go through it and check whether I said something in it years ago before I say something new just to make sure that I don't contradict myself...

 

As long as you acknowledge you changed your mind, is not really a contradiction.

If you said something along the lines of “His name was Robotnik” then went and said “I always believed his name was Eggman,” well that just makes the case already.

[DabigRG]

22 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Now in 2020 I would write Amy as she was from 2000 - 2009 where she is madly attracted to Sonic in every way and not what we have now which is a hammer shaped to look like a girl.

A hammer shaped like a--heh, that's funny.

22 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

The Zeti should be a bigger threat than Eggman and not lose after just one hit.

I somewhat agree for the most part.

On 7/18/2020 at 4:43 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Tails requires zero fixing. He was coward in Forces? We'll he's fine in Team Racing and will be in next game. Chill
Even if they break him again (IDK, make him stupid) it once again will be 1 game thing and nothing to worry about.

That's been my thought for the longest.

 

[thumbs13]

On 7/19/2020 at 3:03 PM, Fire-N-Space said:

The Zeti should be a bigger threat than Eggman and not lose after just one hit.

...Weren't they only a bigger threat than Eggman because they had all of his technology? Forces phantom Zavok is more accurate to what the D6 is like when they're not hijacking someone else's plan.

[E-122-Psi]

Truthfully the fact the Zeti are among the few secondary villains that DON'T completely outclass Eggman in every way is one thing I actually like about them. We don't pit many comedic equals against Eggman, not in the games anyway. One of the more interesting aspects of their role in Lost World was seeing how both them and Eggman were reliant on being opportunistic in trying to make a power play over each other, rather than the usual formula of the new villain playing Eggman for a patsy the whole time or just swatting him away like an unworthy inferior.

Even the idea that they might begrudgingly work together out of free will at times if profit is involved has potential, just the execution is utterly non existent. They just have them work with Eggman....just because.

[Kuzu]

It's kind of impossible to ever take them seriously; any advantage they've gotten is entirely because they just stole Eggman's act. It doesn't really make us see them as legit villains, but just opportunists as you said. 

If we're meant to take them seriously as a threat, then maybe let them be threatening on their own terms instead of just being a more boring version of Eggman. 

[E-122-Psi]

Let's face it, they're meant to be goofballs. They're technicolored bungling monster types similar to the Koopalings. Only Zavok has an air of seriousness about him and even that is still often just to further play into comedic contrast in many scenes.

I don't have a problem with that at all, because I'm truthfully kinda sick of deathly serious doomsday villain archetypes, especially in how they undermine Eggman most of the time. Having some more clowns doesn't hurt at all, they just need to improve how they handle them to make them stand out better. RIght now they're just kind of the baseline for a potential comedic secondary villain band.

[Kuzu]

I don't mind that they're goofballs, I mind that they're boring. There's nothing funny or entertaining about the ways they've been used at all, because everything about them is as paper thin as possible. There's not even anything unique about their group dynamics. Which is why I find the claim that they're somehow superior to prior bosses absolutely laughable when they're just as boring. 

Chaos was a memorable villain, the Deadly Six are not.  Because the former is actually treated like a character and not just an obstacle to overcome. I can even excuse other similar types of villains, because the focus of the game was never about the monsters themselves, they just facilitated the development of the characters that faced them.

I'm just kind of tired of this claim that "at least they're better than the Monsters of the week" is being used as a legitimate point of praise for the Deadly Six. If that's the most praise they can get, then it says more about how much lacking the Six are by comparison. The series hasn't even had Eggman be usurped by one since 2008, it's been over a decade and we're talking as if Eggman hasn't been shoehorned as the final boss and main threat in literally every game since then. 

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

...Weren't they only a bigger threat than Eggman because they had all of his technology?

Guess that's why she said they should be.

7 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Forces phantom Zavok is more accurate to what the D6 is like when they're not hijacking someone else's plan.

In what sense?

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Truthfully the fact the Zeti are among the few secondary villains that DON'T completely outclass Eggman in every way is one thing I actually like about them.

We don't pit many comedic equals against Eggman, not in the games anyway.

Does any villain do that, actually?

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

One of the more interesting aspects of their role in Lost World was seeing how both them and Eggman were reliant on being opportunistic in trying to make a power play over each other, rather than the usual formula of the new villain playing Eggman for a patsy the whole time or just swatting him away like an unworthy inferior.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind having a story/arc actually focused on that.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Even the idea that they might begrudgingly work together out of free will at times if profit is involved has potential, just the execution is utterly non existent. They just have them work with Eggman....just because.

That is a baffling missed opportunity with TSR. 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

It's kind of impossible to ever take them seriously; any advantage they've gotten is entirely because they just stole Eggman's act. It doesn't really make us see them as legit villains, but just opportunists as you said. 

If we're meant to take them seriously as a threat, then maybe let them be threatening on their own terms instead of just being a more boring version of Eggman. 

Agreed.

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

There's not even anything unique about their group dynamics.

Aside from Zavok and Zik anyway, which the closest to an explicit connection they had.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Which is why I find the claim that they're somehow superior to prior bosses absolutely laughable when they're just as boring. 

Chaos was a memorable villain, the Deadly Six are not.  Because the former is actually treated like a character and not just an obstacle to overcome. I can even excuse other similar types of villains, because the focus of the game was never about the monsters themselves, they just facilitated the development of the characters that faced them.

I'm just kind of tired of this claim that "at least they're better than the Monsters of the week" is being used as a legitimate point of praise for the Deadly Six. If that's the most praise they can get, then it says more about how much lacking the Six are by comparison. The series hasn't even had Eggman be usurped by one since 2008, it's been over a decade and we're talking as if Eggman hasn't been shoehorned as the final boss and main threat in literally every game since then. 

He didn't say that, I don't think?

[thumbs13]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Guess that's why she said they should be.

In what sense?

 

I mean, you can wish for them to be a bigger threat, but they were never presented as anything other than Sonic's screwup. If Sonic wasn't there, they would have been disposable minions like Infinite.

And without an army, the D6 are just strong guys in a series full of them, and I think Zavok's clone boss fight is a representation of what he'd be like under normal circumstances.

[DabigRG]

46 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

I mean, you can wish for them to be a bigger threat, but they were never presented as anything other than Sonic's screwup. If Sonic wasn't there, they would have been disposable minions like Infinite.

That is true.

Guess that can be another sting of them not getting more development or even a send-off in that game: Sonic doesn't really get to put a cap on that mistake by calling them out.

46 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

And without an army, the D6 are just strong guys in a series full of them, and I think Zavok's clone boss fight is a representation of what he'd be like under normal circumstances.

Oh.

I mean, they could also play on the teamwork angle behind there being six of them and emphasize their being their own race with their own culture as a source of potential peril in the future.

[Diogenes]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

It's kind of impossible to ever take them seriously; any advantage they've gotten is entirely because they just stole Eggman's act. It doesn't really make us see them as legit villains, but just opportunists as you said. 

I don't think there's any contradiction in being both opportunists riding on someone else's power and villains posing a serious threat, though. I mean, that's what Eggman's been doing too, more often than not; chasing magic rocks or ancient monsters or hyperactive aliens or whatever, trying to steal whatever power he can to gain the upper hand.

[E-122-Psi]

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think there's any contradiction in being both opportunists riding on someone else's power and villains posing a serious threat, though. I mean, that's what Eggman's been doing too, more often than not; chasing magic rocks or ancient monsters or hyperactive aliens or whatever, trying to steal whatever power he can to gain the upper hand.

At the same time I do kinda see their point with that because I think that after a while started to drain Eggman of his signature craft. Like I think Dark Gaia was maybe the one that meshed most with Eggman since while he was using an ancient monster he was using one primarily to power his technology and industries and make Eggmanland, so still sort of tied into his own approach (just by then the formula had been done to death). This is likely also why the Chaos and Master Emeralds worked perfectly as ancient relics for him to take advantage of, it was still his robotics that were the big picture, just something was now giving them a dangerous power boost.

Seeing him just meet some more powerful beast and leach off of them to do his dirty work makes him seem more generic and less effective on his own, especially  when they always turn out to be using him and render him the inferior villain.

That said the Zeti's Electromagnetic abilities do give them some sort of distinction in stealing Eggman's craft, it's just in the main story, they were mostly just doing Eggman's role at the control hub, not adding their own unique twist to it besides being less restrained about it.

[Kuzu]

The biggest knock is that their abilities aren't all that concrete aside from their ability to control machines, and Zavok's ability to grow in size and shoot fireballs. 

The ability to control machines makes them an effective counter to Eggman, but I feel like it doesn't add anything to their own unique abilities aside from stealing Eggman's tech.

[DabigRG]

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think there's any contradiction in being both opportunists riding on someone else's power and villains posing a serious threat, though. I mean, that's what Eggman's been doing too, more often than not; chasing magic rocks or ancient monsters or hyperactive aliens or whatever, trying to steal whatever power he can to gain the upper hand.

 

47 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

At the same time I do kinda see their point with that because I think that after a while started to drain Eggman of his signature craft. Like I think Dark Gaia was maybe the one that meshed most with Eggman since while he was using an ancient monster he was using one primarily to power his technology and industries and make Eggmanland, so still sort of tied into his own approach (just by then the formula had been done to death). This is likely also why the Chaos and Master Emeralds worked perfectly as ancient relics for him to take advantage of, it was still his robotics that were the big picture, just something was now giving them a dangerous power boost.

Seeing him just meet some more powerful beast and leach off of them to do his dirty work makes him seem more generic and less effective on his own, especially  when they always turn out to be using him and render him the inferior villain.

Basically. Well described reading of that.

47 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

That said the Zeti's Electromagnetic abilities do give them some sort of distinction in stealing Eggman's craft, it's just in the main story, they were mostly just doing Eggman's role at the control hub, not adding their own unique twist to it besides being less restrained about it.

That's another small, but noticeable vacancy in hindsight. Like, Zavok wanted a big way to get back at Eggman, but their plan really just amounted to leaving MegaMaid on Succ and then drinking Mountain Dew to power up afterwards.

Beyond Zik sorta having an interest in gaining Sonic himself, what the hell else were they supposed to be doing all that time? Zomom can just hang around Zavok eating because they honestly had nothing else to do as far, as the story cared to tell us.

[batson]

I would give Metal Sonic back his goddamn voice. There was never any indication in the classic games that Metal was supposed to be a mute character. Once the series started featuring voice acting in Sonic Adventure, all of the classic characters that had previously been silent due to technical limitations were given speech. And characters such as Gamma showed that, yes, Eggman's robots were capable of speech as well. With all that in mind, it was only natural that when Metal made his big in-universe return in Sonic Heroes, he spoke just like any other character. Saddly, for whether reason, Sega ever since has backtracked on Metal's speaking capability and made him mute. Even other continuities like the Boom universe follows that rule. And as a Metal Sonic fan, it really sucks.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

The biggest knock is that their abilities aren't all that concrete aside from their ability to control machines, and Zavok's ability to grow in size and shoot fireballs. 

The ability to control machines makes them an effective counter to Eggman, but I feel like it doesn't add anything to their own unique abilities aside from stealing Eggman's tech.

That's primarily because its rather ill-defined collectively.

Zor is said to using some forbidden jutsuarts in supplementary material, Zik is also telekinetic, and Zomom & Zeena seem to have some ability to manipulate the terrain, but most of that is never really commented on or taken advantage of. So the former aside, all we're given is that Zeti in general have innate electromagnetic abilities that allow them to "make machines do interesting things." What those things beyond controlling them are, we're not really shown--the closest we get is Zazz making the Moon Mech block out the sun.

The lack of any background information on the Deadly Six means there's also a lack of elaboration on what each of their abilities mean or come from in regards to each of them. Yeah, Vector can also breathe fire for seemingly no reason, but then Team Chaotix are just Team Oddball in general. And they're also not meant to be the same specific mythical race.

All that said, I am recalling a post where someone actually went into how most of their powers can be attributed to that biological aspect of them. I'd have to find it though.

16 minutes ago, batson said:

I would give Metal Sonic back his goddamn voice. There was never any indication in the classic games that Metal was supposed to be a mute character. Once the series started featuring voice acting in Sonic Adventure, all of the classic characters that had previously been silent due to technical limitations were given speech. And characters such as Gamma showed that, yes, Eggman's robots were capable of speech as well. With all that in mind, it was only natural that when Metal made his big in-universe return in Sonic Heroes, he spoke just like any other character. Saddly, for whether reason, Sega ever since has backtracked on Metal's speaking capability and made him mute. Even other continuities like the Boom universe follows that rule. And as a Metal Sonic fan, it really sucks.

I think the idea could be to distance him from the other characters for lethal purposes.

What would he sound like and say, though?

[Miles Storzillo]

Zik using Fruit to attack aside (though it proves effective in the 3DS version), I’d only really call half of them goofballs.  Hell, Zor’s emo attitude leaves to some pretty fucked up lines.

Maybe all the enemies and death traps will finish Sonic, maybe they won't. Does it really matter in the cosmic scheme of things? We're all gonna die eventually

We're all doomed anyway

In this pain, I finally find comfort

I welcome death's cold embrace

Though I guess I have no right to speak since I’m one of the few people who don’t mind the Zeti...  Ok, I don’t mind 4 of them, but still.  Though I do find it surprising that they’re having Zavok and (to a lesser extent) Zazz as reoccurring villains.  Then again, besides Metal, I’m pretty sure they’re the only non spinoff villains who survived and didn’t change sides.  Although the people who had no experience with the 3DS version would probably think they died.