Sonic Unleashed - What is it now after four years?

[Nepenthe]

The insinuation that prerendered CGI is useless because game graphics are advancing acts like there's no technological leaps being made with hardware-rendered CGI too, or at least that hardware rendered CGI isn't still beating the shit out of software rendered stuff in terms of the ability and practicality in getting across huge amounts of visual detail.

 

It's true that games look better now than they did a generation ago, but having to be rendered on the fly will always be a setback that forces a lot of detail to not even be considered as practical. The day a game contains as much visual information as Unleashed's opening and final cutscenes is a day I imagine I'll never see in my lifetime, when consoles become big veritable render farms and cost thousands of dollars and need cranes to be delivered to homes or some shit like that. And if that day is even inevitable, the improvement only raises the question: "What the hell are movies going to look like?"

 

I also think there's unique narrative value for prerendered cut scenes. Since they're more detailed than the rest of the game, they inherently act as focal points for the storytelling, expressing particular beats or events as being significantly important. The amount of detail that comes with prerendered CGI also allows the levity of the action taking place to come across better than it would with inferior graphical quality, because we associate more detail with being more realistic, which means anything big or fantastic happening that looks realistic has an easier time coming across as very visceral to the audience. I mean, really, this is why companies spend millions on CGI appearing real. I guarantee you Perfect Chaos' rampage would not have as much of an impact if it were all done in-game, especially with that hilarious model and the shitty water they were using at the time.

 

Overall though, prerendered CGI has a place in games and probably always will. But I'm curious: why has this discussion even concerned itself in any part with disk space anyway? We're talking about a Sonic game, not Elder Scrolls.

[JezMM]

I wasn't talking about pre-recorded in game video files. If they're pre-recorded and in-game that's fine as long as they're not massive in size. CG cutscenes like the Unleashed opening look so far beyond the game graphics that they no doubt take up a lot of space and I just don't feel that's necessary for a video game.

A video file is a video file. A video of a pre-rendered Sonic at HD resolution running along through Green Hill Zone would be more or less the same size as the same length video at HD resolution of just Sonic 1 footage from the Mega Drive.

 

Maybe Unleashed seems like it has more content because of the extra padding, hubs, CG movies and longer werehog stages. Generations is more streamlined and right to the point with progression so maybe that's why it seems Unleashed has more. By not focusing on all that stuff from Unleashed they were able to make a much better feeling game.

I'm not talking about story length, I'm talking about stuff to do. Sonic Unleashed had NPC storylines, about thrice as many medals to collect, media collectables, missions, souvineers, food collecting, hot dog challenges, DLC, secret acts, levelling, and S-ranking.

Generations had missions, S-ranking, about a third of the amount of medals to collect and... uhh the bell ringing/note chasing thing.

 

 

And moving into the digital distribution age you're right about disc space not mattering as much, but I still stand that elaborate CG cutscenes are a waste of money especially with in game graphics advancing so much.

I'll just refer to Nepenthe's great post with regards to the advantages of CG over in-game graphics. They aren't NECESSARY but Sonic Unleashed's opening using in-game graphics would have not been as anywhere near as striking.

It starts to veer into the awkward territory of opinions on what is "necessary" for a game. Like just because it's not directly part of gameplay, it doesn't change the fact that expensive CG cut-scenes can add to the overall experience of a game. Like, at what point do you stop? Was the exceedingly complex lighting system development "necessary" for Sonic Unleashed's gameplay? Not at all, but it really boosted the sense of place, adding to the experience of the game. Unleashed's opening did the same for the story and staging as the lighting system did for the envioronment.

Edited January 1, 2013 by JezMM

[Nepenthe]

It starts to veer into the awkward territory of opinions on what is "necessary" for a game. Like just because it's not directly part of gameplay, it doesn't change the fact that expensive CG cut-scenes can add to the overall experience of a game. Like, at what point do you stop? Was the exceedingly complex lighting system development "necessary" for Sonic Unleashed's gameplay? Not at all, but it really boosted the sense of place, adding to the experience of the game. Unleashed's opening did the same for the story and staging as the lighting system did for the envioronment.

 

I agree with this massively. Talking about whether or not something should be excluded from any game simply because it's not necessary for the game to function is on par with wondering why we bother producing films in color because they can function in black and white. It's just a slippery slope that inevitably leads to a supply of potentially and technically-inferior products than we'd have otherwise because games are, yanno, art.

[lounge]

I didn't say exclusively the gameplay is the only thing that matters. I said the actual game. The look, feel, characters, sound, and the longevity are what will keep you coming back to the game. I mean imagine if Ocarina of Time or Mario had a nice looking CG opening. Imagine the actual game content they'd have to cut to get that into the game. That won't make the game better. It's the stuff you're doing and feeling in the game that matters. And the money and planning that went towards those expensive, massive CG cutscenes in Unleashed should've gone towards that instead.

 

And like I said about Zelda. A series like that never use CG cutscenes and yet it is so well recieved. Nobody complains how there isn't any CG openings in any of the games. That's because they put the money and effort where it matters. Yeah you couldn't reproduce the opening from Unleashed with in game graphics, but why is that necessary? It's not like the narrative or story of Unleashed was that interesting.

 

And about video files. How is a CG cutscene of something like the Unleashed opening more or less the same size as HD video of Sonic 1 footage? I know CGI has to be compressed to fit on the game disc. But If you compress it too much than it doesn't have a good impact. Does anybody know the file size of the Unleashed opening on the game disc, maybe thru ripping? I know people do that a lot with games to see their contents.

[JezMM]

I didn't say exclusively the gameplay is the only thing that matters. I said the actual game. The look, feel, characters, sound, and the longevity are what will keep you coming back to the game. I mean imagine if Ocarina of Time or Mario had a nice looking CG opening. Imagine the actual game content they'd have to cut to get that into the game. That won't make the game better. It's the stuff you're doing and feeling in the game that matters. And the money and planning that went towards those expensive, massive CG cutscenes in Unleashed should've gone towards that instead.

How is Unleashed's intro any less "part of the game" than any other part? Just because you're not actively playing something doesn't mean it can't be awesome. Spectacle doesn't always have to be interactive to evoke a feeling in the player. You'll probably also find the cut-scene related stuff was handled entirely seperately and long after the game's gameplay content was finalised in terms of what they were planning to create.

 

And like I said about Zelda. A series like that never use CG cutscenes and yet it is so well recieved. Nobody complains how there isn't any CG openings in any of the games. That's because they put the money and effort where it matters. Yeah you couldn't reproduce the opening from Unleashed with in game graphics, but why is that necessary? It's not like the narrative or story of Unleashed was that interesting.

Zelda being well recieved has nothing to do with whether or not it has CG cutscenes. And maybe the narrative wasn't interesting in the long run but that opening was. I was glued to the screen during that thing. Also we're using that dangerous "necessary" word. How do you decide what is "necessary" for a Sonic game?

And about video files. How is a CG cutscene of something like the Unleashed opening more or less the same size as HD video of Sonic 1 footage? I know CGI has to be compressed to fit on the game disc.

Because video files are video files. They are a set thing, it doesn't matter what their actual content is. Much like how an mp3 of fully complex orchestral music for five minutes is going to be pretty much the same file size as an mp3 of someone randomly tapping a xylophone for five minutes.

[Scar]

I didn't say exclusively the gameplay is the only thing that matters. I said the actual game. The look, feel, characters, sound, and the longevity are what will keep you coming back to the game. I mean imagine if Ocarina of Time or Mario had a nice looking CG opening. Imagine the actual game content they'd have to cut to get that into the game. That won't make the game better. It's the stuff you're doing and feeling in the game that matters. And the money and planning that went towards those expensive, massive CG cutscenes in Unleashed should've gone towards that instead.

Yeah, CGI cutscenes won't make the game better, but it would make the experience richer. Unleashed's fancy schmancy intro scene could have been done with the in-game graphics adequately enough. But then would it have had the same oomph and visual impact that the CG-quality intro did?

And what makes you assume that anything had to be "cut from" the actual game in order for the CG intro to be fit into the disk?

 

And like I said about Zelda. A series like that never use CG cutscenes and yet it is so well recieved. Nobody complains how there isn't any CG openings in any of the games. That's because they put the money and effort where it matters. Yeah you couldn't reproduce the opening from Unleashed with in game graphics, but why is that necessary? It's not like the narrative or story of Unleashed was that interesting.

 

Yeah, Unleashed's story wasn't particularly interesting. But that introductory scene sure as hell got me pumped and excited for the game. That same level of excitement would not be reproducable with a mere in-game quality cutscene. If you've noticed, only the most significant scenes in the game actually have CGI. Namely the intro, which sets the scene and tone of the game, and the few short CGI scenes showing Dark Gaia's transformation and eventual mutilation. Again, those scenes would have significantly lost their impact and grotesqueness if it had been rendered in-game.

Its not necessary in the same sense that Sonic games having any cutscenes at all, isn't necessary. But it sure as hell is a nice addition, that doesn't necessarily have to result in gameplay compromises. Its not even as though Sonic Team themselves have to waste their time doing them, as there is a seperate studio within SEGA doing it for them, while they focus on making the game.

 

 

And about video files. How is a CG cutscene of something like the Unleashed opening more or less the same size as HD video of Sonic 1 footage? I know CGI has to be compressed to fit on the game disc. But If you compress it too much than it doesn't have a good impact. Does anybody know the file size of the Unleashed opening on the game disc, maybe thru ripping? I know people do that a lot with games to see their contents.

 

Surely a Video file rendered at 1920x1080 will be the same size, regardless of if its CGI or In-game graphics? I'm not an expert, but surely filesize for video is dependant on resolution and bitrate...

In any case the sum total of the CG cutscenes can't be more than a 2GB. In the case of the 360 that leaves 6-7GB to the rest of the game. On the PS3 (and now Wii U) it would leave a full 23GB of space for gameplay content. Dual layer? A whopping 48GB of remaining space.

Maybe last generation we would be hurting for storage space. Not any more. With Blu-Ray and NOT-Blu-Ray being used by Sony and Nintendo respectively and Microsoft presumably following suite with their own high-capacity storage medium, a couple GB of storage being used to hold some CG isn't going to post much of an issue.

[Diogenes]

Also we're using that dangerous "necessary" word. How do you decide what is "necessary" for a Sonic game?

Well...

 

Zelda being well recieved has nothing to do with whether or not it has CG cutscenes.

I'd call that pretty strong evidence that they aren't necessary.

[Scar]

Well...

 

I'd call that pretty strong evidence that they aren't necessary.

 

Lots of things aren't necessary, but its a nice thing to have regardless and can, if done properly, improve the experience.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think what should be "necessary" is the stuff that forms the core of the game, where as everything else that isn't necessary is what can potentially add to the value of the game when care is given to them.

 

Sure examples like cutscenes aren't necessary, but is that a reason that they absolutely shouldn't be around? Or is it something that's "unnecessary" because you just don't want it around?

Edited January 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Lots of things aren't necessary, but its a nice thing to have regardless and can, if done properly, improve the experience.

And I don't deny that.

[Kuzu]

Something that isn't necessary doesn't exactly mean it doesn't add anything to the overall product.

[JezMM]

If their intention with the Unleashed intro was to give a truly breathtaking cinematic experience in order to hook the player into caring about the game's universe, and giving a striking appearence that evoked the emotion that "yes this is Sonic like you've never seen him before"... then the CG intro was completely necessary towards that goal.

 

 

But the reason I dislike the subject is because it's a slippery slope.  What is deemed "necessary" and what isn't is entirely opinion and also dependant on the game's goals and assumed reaction it wanted to gain from the player.  If you stripped away everything that was "unnecessary" every Sonic game would look like Sonic Colours' Game Land levels.  With no music.  If even that.

Edited January 1, 2013 by JezMM

[Diogenes]

We can say things aren't necessary without automatically making an argument against their inclusion. Whining about slippery slopes to deny a simple and obvious fact is never going to help anything.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Meh...tho I have to say that it doesn't help that many people say "it's not necessary" as a justification to have it scraped out of being included in the game in the first place. Not saying we don't need to argue about necessity like that, but those words don't always carry a rather intersubjective view on an idea when spoken unless they have a disclaimer saying otherwise.

Edited January 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[T-Min]

And like I said about Zelda. A series like that never use CG cutscenes and yet it is so well recieved. Nobody complains how there isn't any CG openings in any of the games. That's because they put the money and effort where it matters. Yeah you couldn't reproduce the opening from Unleashed with in game graphics, but why is that necessary? It's not like the narrative or story of Unleashed was that interesting.

Your mileage may vary?

 

But really, even then, the CGI opening to Unleashed didn't deal with the story much aside from setting it up. Mostly, it was meant to draw you into the game by being as epic as it possibly could, and boy, was it ever. Technically, it's not necessary, but without it, a huge part of Unleashed's presentation would be lost and the game wouldn't feel as special.

 

And another thing regarding disc space, even if the opening ended up using quite a lot, Unleashed is not a very long game. I doubt much content if any had to be cut.

Edited January 1, 2013 by The One and Only T-Man

[JezMM]

We can say things aren't necessary without automatically making an argument against their inclusion.

Maybe so, but Lounge is quite clearly suggesting the unnecessary-ness as an arguement against their inclusion, even if you aren't.

 

Whining about slippery slopes to deny a simple and obvious fact is never going to help anything.

Whining? How was that in any way whining?

 

Also could you clarify this "obvious fact"?  Because in that very same post I justified why I deemed Unleashed' CG intro to be, for all intents and purposes, "necessary".

Edited January 1, 2013 by JezMM

[lounge]

There's no denying the Unleashed opening is impressive and would get you pumped. But in the long run that's not going to matter if you're not really feeling the game. If their intention was the make you care about the game universe then they should've put more effort into the story and writing. Also it can really take you out of the game. As soon as that opening is over and you see the first in game cutscene, there's a huge difference. It's not a consistent flow. Instead of relying on expensive CGI to impress. Imagine how much better Unleashed could've been if all that CG money went towards improving the ingame engine or cutscenes, graphics or whatever.

I do admire that they did care about making a new graphics engine for the game. And I do believe taking advantage of as much disc space for the game can make that extra difference. Even if the CG cutscenes are 2GB or whatever. To me that extra 2GB going towards the game is more important than going towards CGI.

What glues me and really draws me to the game is ingame stuff (cutscenes, story, music, gameplay etc.) combined to make a great experience.

[T-Min]

There's no denying the Unleashed opening is impressive and would get you pumped. But in the long run that's not going to matter if you're not really feeling the game. If their intention was the make you care about the game universe then they should've put more effort into the story and writing. Also it can really take you out of the game. As soon as that opening is over and you see the first in game cutscene, there's a huge difference. It's not a consistent flow. Instead of relying on expensive CGI to impress. Imagine how much better Unleashed could've been if all that CG money went towards improving the ingame engine or cutscenes, graphics or whatever.

Here's the thing about that, though.

 

Even in-engine, Unleashed was freaking gorgeous.

 

How much better could it have looked?

 

...

 

...Well, I guess they could have improved the framerate in Adabat, but still...

[JezMM]

What glues me and really draws me to the game is ingame stuff (cutscenes, story, music, gameplay etc.) combined to make a great experience.

 

All I'm saying is I don't consider CG cut-scenes to be any less "in-game".  It is an odd sensation to have a select number of scenes suddenly have better graphics than the rest of the game but it's something I just don't really think about that much.  Just like how having a HUD or loading screens doesn't really take me out of the universe and experience of the game.

[Semi-colon e]

At least Unleashed ingame looks pretty similar to the CG cutscenes minus the polish and flash. In 06 the CG looked great (apart from the scenes that were just ingame + shiny coat of paint) but the ingame graphics looked so jarringly different it was really bad.

 

Honestly though Unleashed has such a great opening cutscene that I find the rest of it doesn't live up to it, so yeah...

[Scar]

There's no denying the Unleashed opening is impressive and would get you pumped. But in the long run that's not going to matter if you're not really feeling the game. If their intention was the make you care about the game universe then they should've put more effort into the story and writing.

 

No the purpose of the CG intro, was to get you excited about what's happening and to set the scene. If it wasn't there we wouldn't know what the hell was actually going on in the game. The writing being mediocre has nothing to do with the CG cutscene. In fact better writing would merely enhance the impact of the CG cutscene to even greater heights.

 

Granted its not necessary to have full-blown CG epics everywhere. Having them here and there where they're justifiable and actually doing something with the situation at hand within the game's story is much better. Having a CGI intro to Generation's little birthday party would be a total waste, because nothing is happening that justifies the need for the extra production values. But a CG cutscene showing off the final boss or something makes sense, because something of that magnitude would warrant a little extra.

 

Also it can really take you out of the game. As soon as that opening is over and you see the first in game cutscene, there's a huge difference. It's not a consistent flow. Instead of relying on expensive CGI to impress. Imagine how much better Unleashed could've been if all that CG money went towards improving the ingame engine or cutscenes, graphics or whatever.

 

Diverting money doesn't suddenly increase the amount of time Sonic Team have to make the game. The money thrown to the CG cutscenes is extra. It wasn't taken from the game development budget, it was an additional expense made at SEGA's discretion. By that I mean, the CG cutscenes had likely already been factored into the game during planning, prior to the final budget being set.

 

I do admire that they did care about making a new graphics engine for the game. And I do believe taking advantage of as much disc space for the game can make that extra difference. Even if the CG cutscenes are 2GB or whatever. To me that extra 2GB going towards the game is more important than going towards CGI.

 

Given that the CG contributes to the game, the 2GB is going towards the game. Its not like its 2 gigs of random YouTube videos thrown in, the cutscenes are relevant to the game.

Anyway,  the 2GB wasn't taken away from the gameplay, it was probably reserved during the game's development. The game's planning probably included the use of CG cutscenes and they probably balanced out the storage needs for the game before committing and actually commissioning the production of the cutscenes

 

 

What glues me and really draws me to the game is ingame stuff (cutscenes, story, music, gameplay etc.) combined to make a great experience.

 

A CG cutscene is still a cutscene. It still contributes to the story, just as any other cutscene would. It is merely of a higher fidelity to provide additional impact.

 

 

EDIT:

Holy shit, I've said the words "CG cutscenes" sooooo many times in this essay.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Scar

[Nepenthe]

For the record, the reason I imagine the CGI isn't that big of a space-taker is because unlike the game, when it's actually rendered out the 3D assets are then converted into 2D images; they're actual film at that point, and understanding proper render settings essentially allows for even more compression. As detailed as Avatar is for example, taking a clip the same length as Unleashed's opening from the DVD would theoretically not really result in a significantly bigger file size.

[hangarninetysix]

I respect the production quality of the game, but the game didn't even hook me enough to get me to want to finish it in terms of gameplay. I don't know. The core game was just not enjoyable for me. The controls were a little slippery too. The graphics were really great at first glance, but the art style was really lacking I felt - however I haven't been to eggmanland yet, so I can't speak for that section. I got it around the same time as Sonic Colors and found the latter to be many times more enjoyable. (then again, colors was newer)

[Emmett L. Brown]

but the art style was really lacking I felt - however I haven't been to eggmanland yet, so I can't speak for that section.

It's the only level in the game that isn't based on a real-world location, so you might like it. It's basically an amusement park crossed with an iron foundry crossed with a factory crossed with a techno base. If you're on the HD version, it really feels like three or four levels tied together.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's the only level in the game that isn't based on a real-world location, so you might like it. It's basically an amusement park crossed with an iron foundry crossed with a factory crossed with a techno base.

Er, no?

 

Try an amusement park mixed with a factory and placed in the middle of Hell. That's a better description of Eggmanland.