Is Shadow the Hedgehog really a bad game? Or was a underrated gem?

[Mr. Taxi]

Yes, because acting like an idiot really is the best way at showing your differences from your dark rival when you previously had a far more in-character and subtle way of going about it isn't it?

That's Flanderization. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mmm-hmm.

[Diogenes]

Jumping and shadowboxing: things only idiots do.

In the next game, the part of Sonic the Hedgehog will be played by a solid stone cube, to prevent any unsightly expressions of excitement.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, Shadow doesn't kick any motherfuckers in the head in slow motion in Shadow The Hedgehog.

We could honestly do this all day.

Challenge accepted.

At least Shadow's Chaos Blast isn't like a sparrows fart in ShTH.

Yeah but compared to a game where you literally do not know what happens for the majority of it, I think '06 has the edge.

And that still doesn't make it a coherent plot.

While this is a plothole taking the series as a whole, it's not incoherent with itself.

Yes, it very much is. and this is on top of her being from the future in this plot when a previous game had already established her as from an alternate dimension with it's own set of Chaos Emeralds that she is capable of using. This disconnect between what was already established is the very definition of it being incoherent.

To add to that, nothing establishes whether or not she returned to the future after the game's ending, which in either scenario adds to the conundrum: If she returned to the future, how is she from an alternate dimension? And if she didn't, why doesn't she allude to being from the future in the Rush series?

This is just a matter of a stupid villain, and Black Doom really isn't any better. The dude and his army pass by Earth every 50 years, they obviously had a ground presence at some point given the flying temples, but they never make a move until this one particular hedgehog is created?

I don't know why, and I don't particularly care. We could make all the assumptions in the world about why Doom didn't make a move, but at the very least he didn't suffer as much as Mephilies in having a complexity addiction.

Which is the majority of the game...

Compared to the several questions Sonic 06 left people asking and talking about to this day.

Edited December 11, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[sonfan1984]

Aside from dark violent tone of the game, another thing I could not stand in this game is how Sonic was portrayed. He came across as a hyper, bumbling idiot. Sure Sonic likes to have fun and is full of life, but in this game he seemed to be incapable of being serious when the time called for it at times. His playful, joking and chatty demeanor with the corny outbursts just didn't fit with the overrall "serious" theme of the game, and it made Sonic look rather silly. Sonic knows how to be serious when the time calls for it. I also didn't like the idea that the other characters were completely helpless without Shadow's help. I like Shadow and all but that is putting him too high of a pedestal.

Am I the only one that kinda relieved that Sonic wasn't very serious in this game? Yeah he came across as too hyper and there are some cutscenes that made me want to slap him if I could but at the same time I'm kinda glad for it as everyone else is too moody and boring for my taste. Atleast there is one character that is trying to lighten up the mood somewhat.

But this is also coming from someone who likes cheesy, happy and colorful shit so carry on. :v

Edited December 11, 2012 by sonfan1984

[Xenos]

Jumping and shadowboxing: things only idiots do.

In the next game, the part of Sonic the Hedgehog will be played by a solid stone cube, to prevent any unsightly expressions of excitement.

It isn't the actions alone that's the problem, it's the fact that if you couple that with Sonic's overly-hyperactive attitude even though this would usually be the part where he could be remotely fucking serious. And Griffith's very...odd voice tone for Sonic here, it just doesn't mesh well.

[Diogenes]

And that still doesn't make it a coherent plot.

Okay, they're both incoherent, but ShtH moreso.

Yes, it very much is. And what's more is that you yourself made it a point to call out how incoherent this part is regard Blaze's lack knowledge of Sonic the hedgehog, and this is on top of her being from the future in this plot when a previous game had already established her as from an alternate dimension with it's own set of Chaos Emeralds that she is capable of using. This is disconnect between what was already established is the very definition of it being incoherent.

All I'm saying is that if you take '06's plot on its own, without reference to anything else in the series, Blaze being in the future isn't incoherent. I'm not saying it's not a plothole when you consider the series as a whole, I'm not saying it isn't shitty as fuck writing, but (at least in this instance) '06 is coherent with itself. ShtH is not, because it has several hundred possible sequences leading from Westopolis to the endgame, with zero indication of which one actually happened.

I don't know why, and I don't particularly care.

That's nice. I don't particularly care why Mephiles didn't do whatever earlier, so it's not a problem.

Compared to the several questions Sonic 06 left people asking and talking about to this day.

You don't think people have asked which path ShtH canonically follows? The only reason there aren't more questions is because the bulk of the game is so incoherent that there isn't even ground to form questions on. '06 leaves questions because you can actually recognize inconsistent parts as distinct from the rest of the story. ShtH doesn't because it's the equivalent of static.

[Vertekins]

Mmm-hmm.

I don't know what you're implying by this. Colours and Generations had worse Flanderization? If so, I disagree with that notion. Generations had no perceptible exaggerations of Sonic's character or quirks and whilst Colours did have some, they don't hold a candle to ShTH's portrayal of him.

[Wraith]

Challenge accepted.

At least Shadow's Chaos Blast isn't like a sparrows fart in ShTH.

.

At least I could understand slightly more of the plot in Sonic 06.

[Diogenes]

It isn't the actions alone that's the problem, it's the fact that if you couple that with Sonic's overly-hyperactive attitude even though this would usually be the part where he could be remotely fucking serious.

The first boss?

[Mr. Taxi]

I don't know what you're implying by this. Colours and Generations had worse Flanderization? If so, I disagree with that notion. Generations had no perceptible exaggerations of Sonic's character or quirks and whilst Colours did have some, they don't hold a candle to ShTH's portrayal of him.

Worse? No, but it was there nevertheless. It was much more forgiveable since the overall tone of the games were far more fitting, but there is still a lot of character that felt all over the place. And Generations did flanderize at least Classic Sonic, and quite a lot.

[Lange]

Well so far i've seen all the input, and may try to respond to specifics at some point thanks for the input. Must say however, I didn't really appreciate the flaming towards me for having a positive opinion about the game, I have a right to think so and didn't need to be targeted that way. That is not right but for the sake of the thread I will leave it at that.

Thought I may have gotten a little more reaction to my first post because I spent a good hour or so making good thought out points but its whatever.

Haven't ever talked to fans about it much before so I didn't really expect the Harsh negativity towards the games but I can see what everyone is saying. For whoever said "How can you defend this game" well there positive in everything and I happen to have a open mind and be receptive to just about anything.

Well continue on thanks.

[Wraith]

The first boss?

Well, this is a different situation. The entire City was DESTROYED. What did Sonic do in Sonic adventure? HE GOT SERIOUS.

In Shadow the Hedgehog? He doesn't give a fuck.

[Diogenes]

Blame ShtH's shitty pacing and tone, then, not Sonic for daring to have a personality.

[Xenos]

The first boss?

And both of those games have moments where Sonic does indeed have something telling him the situations is getting far more dire and then he starts to cut back on the jokes and action takes more precedence.

Sonic clearly starts getting pissed at Eggman near the end of his story in SA1, even declaring he won't Eggman get away. In SA2 his cockyness lands him in a pod ready to explode in outer space. Leading him to think seriously even for a moment, and be able to pull off chaos control.

Sonic doesn't have that liberty in ShTH.

But true enough, it isn't really Sonic's fault, the game DOES have shitty pacing and tone anyways.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Xen-mas

[Wraith]

Blame ShtH's shitty pacing and tone, then, not Sonic for daring to have a personality.

There's a difference between having a personallity and just going overboard with it to make Shadow look cooler.

[Nepenthe]

Well, this is a different situation. The entire City was DESTROYED. What did Sonic do in Sonic adventure? HE GOT SERIOUS.

In Shadow the Hedgehog? He doesn't give a fuck.

The entire world was broken up in part due to Sonic's hubris in Unleashed. Someone undoubtedly died during the process, and he never once in the game reflects on that moment and his role in the matter. In fact, he uses the whole fucked-up situation to declare it's time for an extended road trip. If I were directly part of something like that, I'd probably need some therapy.

Sonic also gets serious in ShtH during a few boss fights and the finale. He wasn't entirely unable to parse the seriousness of a situation.

[Diogenes]

And both of those games have moments where Sonic does indeed have something telling him the situations is getting far more dire and then he starts to cut back on the jokes and action takes more precedence.

Sonic clearly starts getting pissed at Eggman near the end of his story in SA1, even declaring he won't Eggman get away. In SA2 his cockyness lands him in a pod ready to explode in outer space. Leading him to think seriously even for a moment, and be able to pull off chaos control.

Sonic doesn't have that liberty in ShTH.

There's a difference between having a personallity and just going overboard with it to make Shadow look cooler.

Right, which is why we're replacing Sonic with a stone cube so he doesn't do anything embarrassing like moving or talking. Excitement is for losers. Edited December 11, 2012 by Diogenes

[Wraith]

The entire world was broken up in part due to Sonic's hubris in Unleashed. Someone undoubtedly died during the process, and he never once in the game reflects on that moment and his role in the matter. In fact, he uses the whole fucked-up situation to declare it's time for an extended road trip. If I were directly part of something like that, I'd probably need some therapy.

To be fair, Shadow the Hedgehog likes to constantly hammer home how serious the entire situation is while very few characters in unleashed's cast actually give a fuck.

Edited December 11, 2012 by -Bane-

[Lange]

The first level Westopolis the Hero mission Sonic is fairly serious about wanting to repel the invaders. After that yes Sonics character is pretty awkward and out of place but I feel that all the Sonic characters were like that anyway with no real sound purpose to the game or just randomly placed in like I mentioned in my first post.

Any characters that made sense at all all had to go with Shadow, The gun commander, Black Doom, Maria etc. The Sonic supporting cast just seemed thrown in just to be there. For example Amy looking for cream for no reason at Eggmans castle with no explanation, or this character being there on this supporting mission with no background just felt hollow. One of the few character roles that made even a little sense was Chaotix because they actually had some cutscene time etc.

[Xenos]

And that balance is so off scale it's hardly worth much in the long run.

[Nepenthe]

To be fair, Shadow the Hedgehog likes to constantly hammer home how serious the entire situation is while very few of unleashed's cast actually gives a fuck.

So basically, Sonic should completely follow suit with the rest of the cast at all times in terms of how they view the seriousness of a situation or else he's potentially being Flanderized?

[Wraith]

So basically, Sonic should completely follow suit with the rest of the cast at all times in terms of how they view the seriousness of a situation or else he's potentially being Flanderized?

It's all about tone.

If Sonic had been talking about how millions of people died in Unleashed, wouldn't that be kind of out of place?

[Diogenes]

And that balance is so off scale it's hardly worth much in the long run.

How the fuck do you expect him to act, then? Grimdark from start to finish?

[Mr. Taxi]

It's all about tone.

If Sonic had been talking about how millions of people died in Unleashed, wouldn't that be kind of out of place?

So do you prefer a game to completely defy our common sense than having Sonic defy the game's common sense?

[Nepenthe]

It's all about tone.

If Sonic had been talking about how millions of people died in Unleashed, wouldn't that be kind of out of place?

I wouldn't directly equate verbally expressing a thought Sonic has never expressed before to Sonic being excited to fight a boss as he has been millions of times before. That's the thing; Sonic has a character regardless of the tone of the setting he is in. It doesn't matter if GUN is freaking out. It doesn't matter if Shadow is being anti-social. When Sonic meets a boss he feels confident against battling, he's going to do some show-offy stuff and have a little fun. Would you rather him not have been any fun at all since the game had overwhelmingly serious overtones?