How Far is TOO Far?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So I was listening to the Saturn Version of Panic Puppet Act 2 from Sonic 3D Blast. And then through that song, somehow I imagined the scene in Mass Effect 3 when Harbinger is blasting lasers at Hammer Squad like they were flies. (Do not ask me to explain the connection)

 

And then I thought to myself "What if Eggman decided to be a major troll to Sonic by faking as if he annihilated or 'killed' Sonic's friends, making Sonic angry and using that anger to have him power some device with his speed while Sonic's friends were still okay, but just imprisoned elsewhere?"

 

I wanted to picture audience reactions to that, and knowing that some Eggman fans wouldn't like their favorite character to be attacked with lethal intent, I'm kinda looking for criticism for the idea.

 

At the same time, it really begs a storytelling question: how far is too far when it comes to expressing emotions outside the typical cliche of emotions the Sonic characters usually express? The last time Sonic got legitimately angry was when Shadow ruined his reputation in SA2. The last time we've seen Shadow smile was in his own game's alternate endings, and the most often he smiled was in SA2. The last time we've seen Eggman show any kind of lack of concern for acts of murderous destruction was Unleashed when he tried to kill Sonic in his Egg Dragoon (and some would go further back and say SA2...again).

 

And we never saw a problem to any of that. Of course, execution is always the key here, but even then it comes to the basic question of "How far is too far?" Would you find it a bad thing if Eggman were still as jolly and goofy as he was in Unleashed, but he had a few act of lethal intent (or even faked it in other cases like the one I mentioned above) towards world domination? And I don't mean something like him straight up pointing a gun to assassinate the president to where the games would go from E to M, I mean something like taking that laser cannon he had in Unleashed and actually destroying a city (Oh gee CSS, that sounds sooo much better. )

 

Would you find it a bad thing if a character like say Eggman or Shadow were to actually find and press Sonic's berserk button if they could do so? How about Sonic for once actually causing the destruction on accident when he was actually trying to prevent it?

 

There are things that are definitely taboo for the series to do so blatantly:

• Cursing
• On-screen and visceral murder (essentially Eggman taking a gun to the president's head and pulling the trigger, as I mentioned earlier)
• Gore (even blood is probably going too far)
• Blatant and extreme sexual content (and no Rouge having breasts, although obviously sexual, is not extreme enough to count)
• Or anything that will obviously bump the ESRB, PEGI, whatever ratings up to an older audience

But then it's a wonder of whether we can or shouldn't go any further with some more sinister or deeper elements of characterization, and how we go about it.

Edited January 19, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Vertekins]

The last time Sonic got legitimately angry was when Shadow ruined his reputation in SA2

 

Actually, I'd say it was SatBK when Sonic was genuinely angry last and it was all because of the tremendous regard in which he holds personal freedoms, his hatred of one-sided sadness and his firm beliefs in what life should entail i.e It wouldn't have meaning if it went on forever. He was so angry at Merlina's revelation of her ideals that he actually attacked her and showed every intent to cleave her in two and scrapped lines that are unlockable in the gallery (Specifically under "KNIGHT OF THE WIND AND SACRED SWORD") has Excalibur-Sonic angrily daring her to try and stop him and co-ordinating his criticism of her with Excalibur.

 

I think this serious isn't ideal for depicting hugely dark elements. Archie tries this and fails every time both in writing and in tone (Mass murdering Mobians in Egg Grapes? Mecha Sally sent on a mission to murder her own brother?).

 

However.

 

I am for dark aspects of stories as long as they are written in-character, aren't excessively visceral and actually contribute to the story as a whole. Shahra's unintentional killing by Erazor, her despair at her betrayal and inability to keep her promise to Sonic and the way he even mocks her comparatively weak powers is incredibly dark yet I never see complaints about it and it was a masterful stroke in a brilliantly-written story. That is the kind of darkness and drama I'm inclined to accept in a Sonic game.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Vertekins

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think this serious isn't ideal for depicting hugely dark elements. Archie tries this and fails every time both in writing and in tone (Mass murdering Mobians in Egg Grapes? Mecha Sally sent on a mission to murder her own brother?).

What about self-destructing a Metal Sonic that Antoine was riding on and putting him in a coma? Come to think of it, I think that's a spectacular example of Eggman doing something with lethal intent but no one manages to actually die.

 

You can't tell me that didn't hit readers hard, especially long time fans who've seen Antoine since day one.

 

EDIT: And I was kinda thinking something along the lines of that Egg Grape example as well with Eggman being a troll. ^__^;

Edited January 19, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dizcrybe]

The last time we've seen Shadow smile was in his own game's alternate endings

 

Doesn't he smile quite a lot in Free Riders?

[KHCast]

The last time we saw shadow smile was in transformed guys. Don't you remember? That moment where we all cried by the beauty.

[Nepenthe]

I'm of the opinion that Sonic has the capability to be as visually offensive as your modern Disney or Dreamworks film which regularly include things like homicide, murder, implied mass deaths/genocides, and rampant destruction, as well as mild curses once in a blue moon (damn and hell) and even small bits of blood here and there. And actual emotion. Anything less than that and you're just getting into basically what we have now: some really sanitized, glossed-over visual storytelling which simply does not fit a series with the type of violent lore Sonic has accrued under his belt since his early days, as in "vengeful/mindless gods can come back at any time and wreak havoc on the Earth" type of violent lore.

[Fatman3000]

For starters, 4kids "When you actually hurt someone, that's going too far" was completely retarded.

 

And as for being dark, when it comes to Sonic there is a limit. Like SA2, it a darker tone, a darker eggman, but it wasn't too dark. Then there's Shadow the hedgehog which was unnecessarily dark with going around shooting things up, levels made of gray, gray and more gray, random swears and murder. Or how about Elise attempting suicide? 

 

I think there needs to be a sense of threat, a dark tone surrounding Eggman in games. I'd say on levels of SA2, unleashed and colours. In SA2, he was at his darkest as he was essentially a terrorist, and even point a gun right at Amy's head. In Unleahsed he split the world apart tried to capture the essence of a demon to rule the world. In Colours he was absorbing the essence of millions of beings and using that essence to enslave humanity.

 

We need Eggman to be threatening. We need him to be a menace for their to be a reason to stop him. Him being a joke takes away from any threat. 

[Diogenes]

And then I thought to myself "What if Eggman decided to be a major troll to Sonic by faking as if he annihilated or 'killed' Sonic's friends, making Sonic angry and using that anger to have him power some device with his speed while Sonic's friends were still okay, but just imprisoned elsewhere?"

Ehhh, the mood seems kind of inconsistent. On the one hand, you've got Sonic (and probably the player, at least for some amount of time) thinking the characters have been killed. On the other you've got Sonic hooked up to a hamster wheel or treadmill or something, which would otherwise pass as a gag. I don't have a problem with either one on its own, but putting them together, I'm not sure it really works.

At the same time, it really begs a storytelling question: how far is too far when it comes to expressing emotions outside the typical cliche of emotions the Sonic characters usually express?

They should be human, but exaggerated. So yes, the characters should have a wider range than their default state. Everyone can be happy, everyone can be sad, everyone can be angry, and the story should make an effort to bring out that range in its characters. Not every character is going to react the same way, of course, and they're not always going to act as a "normal" person would, but they all should have more than one default state.

Would you find it a bad thing if Eggman were still as jolly and goofy as he was in Unleashed, but he had a few act of lethal intent (or even faked it in other cases like the one I mentioned above) towards world domination?

I'd be insulted if he didn't.

Would you find it a bad thing if a character like say Eggman or Shadow were to actually find and press Sonic's berserk button if they could do so?

I think it's a shame that they haven't.

How about Sonic for once actually causing the destruction on accident when he was actually trying to prevent it?

Totally a viable story option.

[KHCast]

I'm of the opinion that Sonic has the capability to be as visually offensive as your modern Disney or Dreamworks film which regularly include things like homicide, murder, implied mass deaths/genocides, and rampant destruction, as well as mild curses once in a blue moon (damn and hell) and even small bits of blood here and there. And actual emotion. Anything less than that and you're just getting into basically what we have now: some really sanitized, glossed-over visual storytelling which simply does not fit a series with the type of violent lore Sonic has accrued under his belt since his early days, as in "vengeful/mindless gods can come back at any time and wreak havoc on the Earth" type of violent lore.

what modern Disney movie aimed towards younger audiences has murder,homicide and mass deaths? I haven't heard of one.

So your telling me unless any of those are included in a sonic plot, the story cannot be successful? I mean I agree, some of those elements would be interesting to see, but the Story could still work without it.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Riku

[Vertekins]

What about self-destructing a Metal Sonic that Antoine was riding on and putting him in a coma? Come to think of it, I think that's a spectacular example of Eggman doing something with lethal intent but no one manages to actually die.

 

You can't tell me that didn't hit readers hard, especially long time fans who've seen Antoine since day one.

 

...But it was a death cheat for cheap dramatic effect. And the things Eggman has thrown at Sonic in the games have had the potential to be lethal such as remorselessly ejecting him from the cannon in Unleashed and ejecting him in the capsule in SA2 rigged with an explosive by which only a Deus Ex Machina saved him. He was also trolling in a manner when he wanted to pit mind-controlled Tails against Sonic in Colours. I find that incredibly wicked personally.

 

Thinking about that, I'd love it if Eggman became a mix of his SA2 and Colours mannerisms; Competent but prone to failures, some of which not quite within his control and very, very evil when he wants to be.

 

 

EDIT: And I was kinda thinking something along the lines of that Egg Grape example as well with Eggman being a troll. ^__^;

 

It'd gel with me if Eggman presents Sonic with what appears to be a sticky situation with his friends but It'd be out there for him to base his machinations off of the actual serious suffering of others. Archie Eggman Graped Mobians because he found it fun despite having other efficient means of energy to power Megaopolis, Game Eggman isn't inclined towards glorying in such senseless mass murder.

[Nepenthe]

what modern Disney movie aimed towards younger audiences has murder,homicide and mass deaths? I haven't heard of one.

So your telling me unless any of those are included in a sonic plot, the story cannot be successful? I mean I agree, some of those elements would be interesting to see, but the Story could still work without it.

 

The Lion King is the obvious one. Mufasa is murdered and we even get to see the on-screen body for several minutes. And it's also heavily implied that many animals died during both Scar's drought and the ensuing fight at Pride Rock, which would cover mass death and homicide respectively.

I also said nothing about the success of a story. Certainly, you can have a story with none of this and it still be successful. You can make a good story out of anything. My argument is that the Sonic series, by way of its lore and its genres, is not suited for completely safe and sanitized visual storytelling. When Elise notes Sonic's arm is visibly wounded, it's actually quite fucking stupid to see no blood whatsoever. It doesn't have to be, and cannot be, a Tarantino-styled bloodbath, but the pervading implication that a little rivulet would be too much for the series is absolutely ridiculous. Blood being taboo for animation in general is ridiculous.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Fatman3000]

When Elise notes Sonic's arm is visibly wounded, it's actually quite fucking stupid to see no blood whatsoever. It doesn't have to be, and cannot be, a Tarantino-styled bloodbath, but the pervading implication that a little rivulet would be too much for the series is absolutely ridiculous. Blood being taboo for animation in general is ridiculous.

 

Or how about the much better BS in sth. In the pure dark mission, we see the president slightly limping. To get to that mission, you either completely destroy his escape "pod" or use the ark to annihalte the white house while he's in it. In both scenarios he would be completely murdered.

 

And secondly, "everyone was evacuated and put in the safe zone yesterday" just after Shadow annihalted a bunch of cities with the eclipse cannon. Another cop out. For a "dark and edgy" game it really is heavily censored. So SEGA purposefully makes it a darker game only to censor it. Well done.

[Linkabel]

It'd gel with me if Eggman presents Sonic with what appears to be a sticky situation with his friends but It'd be out there for him to base his machinations off of the actual serious suffering of others. Archie Eggman Graped Mobians because he found it fun despite having other efficient means of energy to power Megaopolis, Game Eggman isn't inclined towards glorying in such senseless mass murder.

 

Wouldn't he though? I mean the concept of the Egg Grapes is not that far off from capturing countless animals to use their energy to power robots. Some robots explode with their animals inside it (as it has been pointed out in the disturbing things thread). What happens to the other animals trapped in robots Sonic doesn't get to? I'm sure they too will eventually die.

 

Or how about Colors story where he enslaved the Wisps to suck off their energy and the effect will be for them to became mindless Purple/Nega Wisps. Sure, Game Eggman doesn't glorify himself as much as Archie's version when he is committing his acts but he ain't that far off.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ehhh, the mood seems kind of inconsistent. On the one hand, you've got Sonic (and probably the player, at least for some amount of time) thinking the characters have been killed. On the other you've got Sonic hooked up to a hamster wheel or treadmill or something, which would otherwise pass as a gag. I don't have a problem with either one on its own, but putting them together, I'm not sure it really works.

I have to admit that I bowlderized it from my actual thought. Rather than a hamster wheel, Eggman would do it to get Sonic's friends out of the way and limit obstacles. The way he did it looks like killed the characters, and in doing so Sonic would chase down Eggman in the most pissed we've ever seen him. Chaos Emeralds and Super Sonic would be involved, and Eggman would do like he did in Unleashed and absorb that energy in a large field contraption and distract Sonic while he sapped the energy over time.

 

But seeing as how some don't like Sonic going after Eggman with lethal intent, I felt a need to alter it a bit...and probably failed in the process.

 

what modern Disney movie aimed towards younger audiences has murder,homicide and mass deaths? I haven't heard of one.

So your telling me unless any of those are included in a sonic plot, the story cannot be successful? I mean I agree, some of those elements would be interesting to see, but the Story could still work without it.

• Lion King,
• Bambi,
• Hunchback of Notre Dame (seriously, watch it),
• Pocahontas,
• Tarzan
• Mulan

That's 6 examples. And even outside of Disney there's Kung Fu Panda 2 that has outright genocide and on-screen killings (that aren't visceral enough to show blood).

 

On top of that Disney/Square Enix franchise Kingdom Hearts has some dark and existential moments.

Edited January 20, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Fatman3000]

But seeing as how some don't like Sonic going after Eggman with lethal intent, I felt a need to alter it a bit...and probably failed in the process.

 

How about Eggman mind controling tails and forcing tails to fight sonic? Sonic refuses to but tails fights him, making Sonic incredibly pissed off at Eggman?

 

Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a Dark Sonic in a sonic game, from Sonic X

[Wraith]

Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a Dark Sonic in a sonic game, from Sonic X

 

You mean that completely out of nowhere anime bullshit that lasted 10 seconds and never really affected the plot anyway?

[Fatman3000]

You mean that completely out of nowhere anime bullshit that lasted 10 seconds and never really affected the plot anyway?

 

Yep, that. Infact it could work. Remember in SA1, where Chaos absorbed the negative energy of the chaos emeralds?

 

Have something similar happen to sonic. That could work.

[Vertekins]

But seeing as how some don't like Sonic going after Eggman with lethal intent, I felt a need to alter it a bit...and probably failed in the process.

 

This was one of Chronicles' many problems; Sonic and co going after Eggman with murderous intent, intent on finishing him once and for all. What compounded that instance is the fact that we get absolutely nothing story-wise and characterization-wise beforehand that justified/Justifies such a route and the characters acting afterwards that they're glad at his demise and don't want him to return.

 

I'd love to see Eggman really push Sonic's buttons though and see just how short that alleged short temper of Sonic's really is. I just want the cause to be believable.

[Diogenes]

Yep, that. Infact it could work. Remember in SA1, where Chaos absorbed the negative energy of the chaos emeralds?

 

Have something similar happen to sonic. That could work.

Except "Dark Sonic" is the lamest of cliches.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Do we seriously need to have a dark form for Sonic to be pissed off and go crazy? Why not actually piss Sonic off to where he causes destruction out of his berserk button being pressed?

[Dr. Homem]

Conceptually, Eggman faking he did something truly evil (ie. murder) isn't bad - a motivational lie can be a deadly weapon in the hands of a cunning villain, who can use it to manipulate the heroes and make for interesting plots. However, the problem lies in the later characterization of Sonic, not Eggman.

 

Obviously, for the sake of story, I prefer that Robotnik never succeeds at actually killing anyone. It would jarringly darken Eggman's character to have him really murder someone. It's fine to see him endanger the lives of others, as long as everyone's alright in the end. Which brings us to that little problem: if the heroes have a real reason to feel overtly vengeful against him, it will be irreparable damage to their relationship. Even if Sonic later discovers that it was, indeed, a fake assassination, how would he continue to treat his enemy in the friendly, casual way while keeping it believable? Doing a 180° back to their original state will be hard to believe, as the period in which Sonic believed his friend(s) in question were dead, plus using such a cruel manner of deception, would leave a permanent scar. Controversely, if they visibly show Sonic having a grudge against Eggman (as it would happen realistically), it would make the whole future story much darker.

 

Like that, it's impossible to have Robotnik induce Sonic into a rampage without either characterizing Sonic in an unrealistic manner, or changing the story tone completely; neither of which are favorable.

[Fatman3000]

Except "Dark Sonic" is the lamest of cliches.

 

So was "turn super and fight this monster at the end" and we had it for years. Hell we even got it in generations.

[Diogenes]

So was "turn super and fight this monster at the end" and we had it for years. Hell we even got it in generations.

No, Dark Sonic is worse. It's a 12 year old's fan fiction based on cookie-cutter animes. All it does is present a child's idea of what's cool and badass, without addressing any actual issues or saying anything meaningful.

[Abominal SnowTaz]

No, Dark Sonic is worse. It's a 12 year old's fan fiction based on cookie-cutter animes. All it does is present a child's idea of what's cool and badass, without addressing any actual issues or saying anything meaningful.

In other words, Ken Penders' 4kids' job description?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Abominal Taz

[Fatman3000]

No, Dark Sonic is worse. It's a 12 year old's fan fiction based on cookie-cutter animes. All it does is present a child's idea of what's cool and badass, without addressing any actual issues or saying anything meaningful.

 

Again, if it the design, reasoning were changed around, it could work. Hell, the idea itself of what would happen to sonic if he absorbed the negative energy would be a good concept.