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How Far is TOO Far?


CrownSlayer’s Shadow

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Besides with already have darkspine sonic, do we really need another dark version of sonic.

 

And don't forget the werehog, so I say that theme was already explored enough.

 

I stay with pissed sonic, for a next game... 

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Again, if it the design, reasoning were changed around, it could work.

So you're saying, if it were different, it'd be different? Shocking. 

Hell, the idea itself of what would happen to sonic if he absorbed the negative energy would be a good concept.

Why? What would you do to make it work and what would we get out of it?

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Again, if it the design, reasoning were changed around, it could work. Hell, the idea itself of what would happen to sonic if he absorbed the negative energy would be a good concept.

But that's such an anime cliche though. It has no point in the games except to make it look "extra cool" and "super 'bad ass'".

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Besides with already have darkspine sonic, do we really need another dark version of sonic.

 

Purple-Wisp.pngViolet-Wisp.png

 

Nothing wrong with dark forms as long as they're done right. "Dark Sonic" is not a dark form done right.

Edited by Vertekins
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I have to admit that I bowlderized it from my actual thought. Rather than a hamster wheel, Eggman would do it to get Sonic's friends out of the way and limit obstacles. The way he did it looks like killed the characters, and in doing so Sonic would chase down Eggman in the most pissed we've ever seen him. Chaos Emeralds and Super Sonic would be involved, and Eggman would do like he did in Unleashed and absorb that energy in a large field contraption and distract Sonic while he sapped the energy over time.

 

But seeing as how some don't like Sonic going after Eggman with lethal intent, I felt a need to alter it a bit...and probably failed in the process.

 

 

  • Lion King,
  • Bambi,
  • Hunchback of Notre Dame (seriously, watch it),
  • Pocahontas,
  • Tarzan
  • Mulan
That's 6 examples. And even outside of Disney there's Kung Fu Panda 2 that has outright genocide and on-screen killings (that aren't visceral enough to show blood).

 

On top of that Disney/Square Enix franchise Kingdom Hearts has some dark and existential moments.

i don't exactly count those as MODERN modern movies. I mean I knew those movies featured that. But I was referring to current Disney. You can use those movies but those were like 10 or more years ago. Current Disney is a pretty "play it safe" company now. And kingdom hearts? Yeah, I'm sorry, but when Disney tells square to remove the blood and alcohol out of pirates of the carribean level, or to remove the religious elements out of the hunchback or Notre dame world, it tells me that the kind of dark elements we saw in the past are seen as "too much" for a kid game now. Which is stupid.

I'd want Sega to try and experiment more with their sonic plots. But when society gets all butthurt at tiny things like the sight of blood or alcohol references in a childs game.....ugh. I mean wasn't there a lot of flipping out about sonic saying hell in secret rings?

Edit:Just remembered the end of Tangled. That's one, right?

Edited by Riku
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Personally, I know there were a lot of incredibly angry fans (myself included) when Sonic was murdered by Mephiles in 06, this seemed a little too inconsistent with the early days for it to work. I'm not saying stay exactly as light-hearted and simple as the early Sonics, but there needs to be some level of consistency and some difference for a plot or game series to work well, this applies to anything really.

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Do we seriously need to have a dark form for Sonic to be pissed off and go crazy? Why not actually piss Sonic off to where he causes destruction out of his berserk button being pressed?

 

Well one scene comes to mind, except it was never used in game. The intro to Sonic Colours before you press start, at the end of the CGI madness you see Sonic looking physically angry, bearing his teeth and riled to point of running and leaping at Eggman with his fists clenched, and an implied full blown punch to Eggman's jaw, unfortunately it ends there and the title screen appears.

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  • Cursing
  • On-screen and visceral murder (essentially Eggman taking a gun to the president's head and pulling the trigger, as I mentioned earlier)
  • Gore (even blood is probably going too far)
  • Blatant and extreme sexual content (and no Rouge having breasts, although obviously sexual, is not extreme enough to count)
  • Or anything that will obviously bump the ESRB, PEGI, whatever ratings up to an older audience

But then it's a wonder of whether we can or shouldn't go any further with some more sinister or deeper elements of characterization, and how we go about it.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind hearing minor curses in Sonic, like Damn or Crap, as long as they don't spam it for the sake of using a cuss word ala Shadow The Hedgehog. Obviously Fuck or Shit should be avoided, but with all the Damn substitutes they use (Darn, dang) I honestly think it might be more natural sounding for Sonic and Co. to just say Damn, and Crap isn't really a full-on curse anyway. 

Edited by Chaos Warp
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I dunno, imagining Sonic saying "Fucking Eggcunt" or some shit will have me rolling, like the Japanese Sonic X

 

First Episode - Eggman "Where'd that Bastard Sonic go?"

 

or the infamous safari Eggman quote.

 

Eggman UK: FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!

 

Eggman JPN: WHAT THE SHIT, THE BASTARD SONIC, FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU!

 

In fact they even had Cream swear in the series, When Chris gets Cheese a "Pet License" and Cream spits that Cheese isn't a pet, but a Friend

 

she immediately folds her arms, turns her head and says "You PISS ME OFF!" I'm guessing that cussing in Japan isn't really a big deal.

Edited by Black☆Rock Shooter
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I dunno, imagining Sonic saying "Fucking Eggcunt" or some shit will have me rolling, like the Japanese Sonic X

 

First Episode - Eggman "Where'd that Bastard Sonic go?"

 

or the infamous safari Eggman quote.

 

Eggman UK: FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!

 

Eggman JPN: WHAT THE SHIT, THE BASTARD SONIC, FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU!

 

In fact they even had Cream swear in the series, When Chris gets Cheese a "Pet License" and Cream spits that Cheese isn't a pet, but a Friend

 

she immediately folds her arms, turns her head and says "You PISS ME OFF!" I'm guessing that cussing in Japan isn't really a big deal.

Wow that seems incredibly out of character for cream.

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she immediately folds her arms, turns her head and says "You PISS ME OFF!" I'm guessing that cussing in Japan isn't really a big deal.

 

1. "Piss" isn't a swear.

 

2. Swearing isn't even a thing in Japan.

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I'm gonna be flamed for this but...

 

Archie shows a Sonic that's easier to relate to than SEGA these days. He's cocky and optimistic like the SEGA one, but when he is at a loss, you can see it in his face, no transformations necessary.

 

Eggman too for that matter. Now, I know this within the games' realm, so I speak with that consideration. I don't think Sally and etc need to join the games' canon for characterization to happen, and I wouldn't welcome it either, but I would LOVE to see Sonic's emotional layers in a game, and when I look back, Sonic Adventure 1/2 (I am personally split there) did it best (and NOT because of Ryan Drummond necessarily).

 

P.S.: I have nothing against Ryan and I see him as my 2nd favorite VA for Sonic.

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Honestly, this really comes down if you're willing to change the Status Quo or not; for such a change in both Sonic & Eggman's character you'd have to stick to it, and not back pedal out of it in the next game. You can't have Sonic hate Eggman's guts in one game, but then engage in friendly banter the next, it's jarring. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you'd have to break a lot of the conventions of this series for it to work, and be consistent with it.

 

 

I for one welcome it, but subtly is the key here; nobody wants Sonic out for Eggman's blood so you'd have to reign in a bit, maybe Sonic can take Eggman a bit more seriously as a threat, and less prone to wisecracks. Obviously he wouldn't completely give up his snarker side, but he'd be generally more levelheaded and focused on stopping Eggman rather than treat it as a game; He'd still be his old reckless self, but slightly more nuanced.

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What is important is that Sonic, despite indulgences in dark moments when anger and sadness overwhelm him, never crosses the line to seriously maim or kill someone. Just like Batman told the Red Hood, "I know that if I go down into that place, I won't come back." Sonic, even if he was fully enraged and fully capable of snapping Eggman's neck at some point, should be able to stop himself. Once you justify one killing, it becomes extremely easy to do the rest.

 

(On that note I wonder if Shadow feels any guilt over likely having caused quite a few deaths himself, but I digress, back to the topic)

 

Darkness is healthy for keeping a plot fresh. But if you play it up too much the plot can quickly become depressing and/or it loses the dramatic effect. That moment where it looked like Eggman had finally killed Sonic in SA2? That was epic because of how rare and unspeakable such a thing was. If Eggman did it all the time, it'd lose its impact.

 

Really, it is like gore in horror. Here and now it greatly adds to the quality of it. Too much and it becomes tasteless.

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Right, so what I gathered is that, as awesome it would be for someone to actually manage to piss off Sonic more noticeably, it would drastically change the narrative as far as the series is going. If Eggman trolls Sonic and manages to push his berserk button, Sonic will definitely have some lingering anger towards him that won't go away so easily.

 

But the way I see this as far as the narrative goes, is that while that may be the case, it doesn't have to be permanent. We've seen Sonic behave more human in the Adventures as he switches from playful to serious before it gradually does away with treating his principle foe with any serious bone in his body as he essentially toys with the Doctor with ease. Shaking that up could lead to a change, but then there's the matter of how Sonic will treat Eggman in future plots.

 

Well for one, I say let the anger linger for awhile. Obviously what was done isn't easily forgiven, and making it so would really cheapen the narrative unless you have a greater threat that allows Eggman to gain some measure of forgiveness or "honor" if you want to go that far. It's kinda like the relationship between Sly and other villains like Dimitri and the Panda King in Sly Cooper; Dimitri is pissed as Sly for having him get sent to jail, but then Sly breaks him out of prison the next time they meet and they wind up becoming valuable teammates to each other; the Panda King was involved in the death of Sly's father, and Sly won't forgive him for that, but when they meet, while tensions end up high they agree to put the past behind them and work together as friends.

 

In this case, it really becomes a question of how long Sonic would hold a grudge. Holding on to it for too long would seem too much if the act committed to him doesn't equal the attitude he gives back in intensity and length, while any less and it's a wonder that this guy doesn't get pissed off when he should be and it makes one wonder about his character.

 

Next topic point: Character Occupations, specifically what is or isn't out of character for a specific occupation for the character to be in. Should we keep characters in roles, or provided that the narrative gives them the opportunity should they be allowed to be dynamic and go outside the perceived roles and occupations they once had and into new ones?

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Obviously, for the sake of story, I prefer that Robotnik never succeeds at actually killing anyone. It would jarringly darken Eggman's character to have him really murder someone. It's fine to see him endanger the lives of others, as long as everyone's alright in the end. Which brings us to that little problem: if the heroes have a real reason to feel overtly vengeful against him, it will be irreparable damage to their relationship. Even if Sonic later discovers that it was, indeed, a fake assassination, how would he continue to treat his enemy in the friendly, casual way while keeping it believable? Doing a 180° back to their original state will be hard to believe, as the period in which Sonic believed his friend(s) in question were dead, plus using such a cruel manner of deception, would leave a permanent scar. Controversely, if they visibly show Sonic having a grudge against Eggman (as it would happen realistically), it would make the whole future story much darker.

 

Like that, it's impossible to have Robotnik induce Sonic into a rampage without either characterizing Sonic in an unrealistic manner, or changing the story tone completely; neither of which are favorable.

 

Is that necessarily? Who's to say Sonic doesn't grudge against him already? (besides, I'm pretty sure Dr.Eggman's has killed by now) Sonic tends to try and act casual and joke even when he knows shit's just got real, it doesn't seem to be necessarily an indication that he's not taking the situation seriously,or even isn't distressed, up to a point anyway, I guess that's a part of your last point ; that it's impossible for Eggman to provoke Sonic into rampage without it being unbelievable or changing the tone of the series, but if he momentarily breaks composure I don't see why he can't resume pretty normally after, a bit like what ChaosSupremeSonic said. 
Edited by Mysterics
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I just don't see Sonic losing his shit unless it was something monumental, like the whole mistaken identity thing in SA2.

 

How dangerous is Eggman in Sonic's eyes? Sometimes I think that Sonic just beats Eggman for the fun of it and doesn't see him as a huge threat. Look at the jokes Sonic makes about Eggman. I also remember this line in SA2: "Just letting Knuckles pilot the shuttle on the way over here was more dangerous than you could ever be."

Edited by UltDevilDoom
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Is that necessarily? Who's to say Sonic doesn't grudge against him already? (besides, I'm pretty sure Dr.Eggman's has killed by now) Sonic tends to try and act casual and joke even when he knows shit's just got real, it doesn't seem to be necessarily an indication that he's not taking the situation seriously,or even isn't distressed, up to a point anyway, I guess that's a part of your last point

 

 

Emotions tend to influence those around us. When we cry, others want to cry. When we're angry, others are filled with rage. When we smile, others smile.

 

Logically it makes sense Sonic bottles up how angry, sad, etc. he feels. His constant smile helps keep everyone else's spirits up.

 

I know 06 was crap, but technically his personality in it would be canon even if the events are not. When Elise is sad, his only response is "Just smile."

 

The reason he doesn't panic or get mad, I presume, is because that might influence everyone else. Remain calm in the face of terror!

 

What would have happened to Sonic if it was Tails in that capsule in Sonic Adventure 2 with the fake Emerald trap?..

 

Aye.

 

I think he'd have a Sonic the Comic-esque character development moment where he realises how he really needs to stop treating everything like a game, lest one of his friends ends up killed because of his idiocy.

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I know 06 was crap, but technically his personality in it would be canon even if the events are not. When Elise is sad, his only response is "Just smile."

 

You mean at one point Sonic was a cool dude like always, then abruptly became a boring robot for 90% of the adventure, then went back to being a cool dude (right after everything was erased too)?

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Note how Sonic seemed eager to lunge at Eggman once Tails was under mind control in Colours and the only thing halting him was Tails getting in the way. I always did wonder what Sonic would've done to Eggman if Tails hadn't have gotten in the way. Note how he's still trying to get past Tails presumably to attack Eggman with Tails moving in tandem presumably to prevent any attacks.

 

Considering the opening actually depicted Sonic leaping at Eggman and seemingly about to punch his lights out upon seeing so many white wisps floating in capsules, I think that adds some credibility to the notion that Sonic is perfectly eager to really lay into Eggman should he witness oppression or encounter scenario's like using his best friend like a meat shield.

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