How Far is TOO Far?

[Tani Coyote]

You mean at one point Sonic was a cool dude like always, then abruptly became a boring robot for 90% of the adventure, then went back to being a cool dude (right after everything was erased too)?

 

Well played. Well played.

 

I just mean his emphasis on smiling would stay constant really.

 

Note how Sonic seemed eager to lunge at Eggman once Tails was under mind control in Colours and the only thing halting him was Tails getting in the way. I always did wonder what Sonic would've done to Eggman if Tails hadn't have gotten in the way. Note how he's still trying to get past Tails presumably to attack Eggman with Tails moving in tandem presumably to prevent any attacks.

 

Considering the opening actually depicted Sonic leaping at Eggman and seemingly about to punch his lights out upon seeing so many white wisps floating in capsules, I think that adds some credibility to the notion that Sonic is perfectly eager to really lay into Eggman should he witness oppression or encounter scenario's like using his best friend like a meat shield.

 

I'm more curious what would happen if Sonic had been the one hit. Would he have been able to resist it through the POWER OF FREE WILL!! or would he have been a temporarily mindless slave?

 

I know a theme in fanon and the extended universe is that Sonic is uncontrollable (roboticised, de-Cored, or otherwise enslaved), but would it hold water in an actual game?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm more curious what would happen if Sonic had been the one hit. Would he have been able to resist it through the POWER OF FREE WILL!! or would he have been a temporarily mindless slave?

 

I know a theme in fanon and the extended universe is that Sonic is uncontrollable (roboticised, de-Cored, or otherwise enslaved), but would it hold water in an actual game?

If it's well written, why wouldn't it?

[Tani Coyote]

If it's well written, why wouldn't it?

 

Really, I'd think the fact that as admirable as being so stubborn and determined you can break free from mind control is, it, alongside friendship being the greatest power of all, seems to be frowned upon in many circles due to being a cliche.

 

...then again this is a cartoon hedgehog I don't think we're expecting great oratory.

 

Though the "corny" morals can be well written. See Harry Potter, which when dissected is whispering "Love is the greatest power of all," without rubbing it in your face like most works are prone to.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Really, I'd think the fact that as admirable as being so stubborn and determined you can break free from mind control is, it, alongside friendship being the greatest power of all, seems to be frowned upon in many circles due to being a cliche.

Or perhaps it's because it gives an already strong character something stronger. So far, Sonic's only physical weakness has been his inability to swim, and he overcomes that obstacle by hydroplaning. So what the hell can bring him down?

 

If the answer is nothing, then we have a boring invincible hero.

 

...then again this is a cartoon hedgehog I don't think we're expecting great oratory.

 

Though the "corny" morals can be well written. See Harry Potter, which when dissected is whispering "Love is the greatest power of all," without rubbing it in your face like most works are prone to.

Harry Potter at the very least has a protagonist who struggles in his fight against evil. The series deconstructs and reconstructs a lot of things, and inverts the boring invincible hero in the main character when he goes against the odds.

 

Unlike Sonic as he currently is which he throws himself straight into a fight and wins as if it was hardly any trouble. That's what some of us want to see, we want to see some struggle in the character and find out how he overcomes the things that get to him.

Edited February 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Harry Potter at the very least has a protagonist who struggles in his fight against evil. The series deconstructs and reconstructs a lot of things, and inverts the boring invincible hero in the main character when he goes against the odds.

 

Unlike Sonic as he currently is which he throws himself straight into a fight and wins as if it was hardly any trouble. That's what some of us want to see, we want to see some struggle in the character and find out how he overcomes the things that get to him.

Exactly. I'm fine with a story having cheesy themes. I'm totally okay with a protagonist who succeeds thanks to the power of friendship and believing in yourself and all that shit. But I want to see them bleed on the way there. I want those themes to be challenged, questioned, rejected, and redeemed. It's boring if they never actually do anything with it.

[Kuzu]

I wish I had more faith in Sega and believe they could do that, and pull it off both believably and consistently.

[Tani Coyote]

I wish I had more faith in Sega and believe they could do that, and pull it off both believably and consistently.

 

Yeahhhh.

 

As nice as giving Sonic some actual struggle would be, it would either be a) poorly-written, heavily panned by those who hate deeper stories, or c) both. I don't think Sonic will have a deeper story for some time until Sega's marketing plan changes: right now they're aiming for simple, lighthearted stuff that's not too far from the older titles to try and secure the Classic enthusiast market. Assuming that market becomes unprofitable, though, they'd certainly try another direction I think.

[Voyant]

I'd love to see Sonic pissed...

 

As much as I dislike secret rings, the story telling was well done had I love the final tidbits....except the fucking handkerchiefs part...

Edited February 2, 2013 by Voyant

[Tani Coyote]

I'd love to see Sonic pissed...

 

As much as I dislike secret rings, the story telling was well done had I love the final tidbits....except the fucking handkerchiefs part...

 

Sonic's always been a master of being corny.

 

It really was nice to see him actually get angry though. Finally some actual showing of three dimensional personality traits!

 

Hence I can only imagine how he'd react if someone seriously hurt Tails.

[Phos]

"Tails dies" has been used as a plot device so often in fan fics that I can't take the idea of Sonic's friends dying at all seriously.  Friend XYZ died?  That's good!/How long till Green Sonic with a Sword shows up?  

[Jolt_TH]

I'll probably get flamed for an Archie reference, but how about the time when Eggman captured everyone bar sonic (I think) and destroyed Knothole? Sonic was really pissed running halfway around the world in 5 seconds due to his anger at eggman and the fact eggman said he "knew sonic's limits" which sonic goes on to show that no one really knows his limits.

Maybe something like that would work? Eggman didn't harm anyone (although he easily could have) and mightily pissed sonic off although sonic didn't go after eggmans head on a stake and still kept up the banter with him after the incident.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[DarkLight]

He was gonna Egg-Grape everyone he captured, if anything that would've made Sonic more mad at him.

 

 

 

If I was an archenemy to someone like Sonic, the last I would want to do is do something to the point where he'll be out for blood.

[Kuzu]

He was gonna Egg-Grape everyone he captured, if anything that would've made Sonic more mad at him.

 

 

 

If I was an archenemy to someone like Sonic, the last I would want to do is do something to the point where he'll be out for blood.

 

 

Well that honestly depends; some people are just sick enough to piss off their Archenemy just for the lulz...ya know, like the Joker.

[Mr. Taxi]

I'll probably get flamed for an Archie reference, but how about the time when Eggman captured everyone bar sonic (I think) and destroyed Knothole? Sonic was really pissed running halfway around the world in 5 seconds due to his anger at eggman and the fact eggman said he "knew sonic's limits" which sonic goes on to show that no one really knows his limits.

Maybe something like that would work? Eggman didn't harm anyone (although he easily could have) and mightily pissed sonic off although sonic didn't go after eggmans head on a stake and still kept up the banter with him after the incident.

 

This is far from being too far. In fact, capturing without doing anything is somewhat silly, especially for a villain that tends to turn animals he comes across into robots. Doing is not a problem, mind. The Sonic franchise has had its fair share of nightmare fuel without crossing any lines, simply because the presentation - or, rather, an essence - isn't damaged.

 

I always use Paper Mario as a close example, but I might as well draw examples from Disney Pixar movies. They have sexual content, killing, angst and all. But it's all in the story, not in the screenwriting. Sometimes these tings have to be in hindsight. No lines will be crossed, ever, if the way to show such things is always the same, distinctive and effective.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Palas

[Tornado]

i don't exactly count those as MODERN modern movies. I mean I knew those movies featured that. But I was referring to current Disney. You can use those movies but those were like 10 or more years ago. Current Disney is a pretty "play it safe" company now.

 

The Incredibles referred directly to the deaths of many of the superhero characters in the backstory and even implied how they died (including showing a decayed corpse of one of them who was mentioned in the beginning of the film), showed the on-screen death of several of Syndrome's henchmen, had said henchmen attempting to kill child characters with guns, played the extremely graphic death of a superhero just off screen as a joke about superhero fashion sense (alongside the deaths of several others for roughly the same joke), repeated that same instance at the end of the movie completely arrow-straight-serious for the death of the villain and showed far more of it than earlier, and had the main character threaten to murder Syndrome's mistress on screen. And there were two completely separate jokes made in the film about Elastigirl's powers increasing her sex appeal.

 

 

And that is a movie still on the public's collective conscience, albeit as "that movie that came between Finding Nemo and Cars."

Edited February 5, 2013 by Tornado

[Autosaver]

What would have happened to Sonic if it was Tails in that capsule in Sonic Adventure 2 with the fake Emerald trap?..

Revenge after Tails stealing all those air bubbles.

Seriously, screw him.

[KHCast]

The Incredibles referred directly to the deaths of many of the superhero characters in the backstory and even implied how they died (including showing a decayed corpse of one of them who was mentioned in the beginning of the film), showed the on-screen death of several of Syndrome's henchmen, had said henchmen attempting to kill child characters with guns, played the extremely graphic death of a superhero just off screen as a joke about superhero fashion sense (alongside the deaths of several others for roughly the same joke), repeated that same instance at the end of the movie completely arrow-straight-serious for the death of the villain and showed far more of it than earlier, and had the main character threaten to murder Syndrome's mistress on screen. And there were two completely separate jokes made in the film about Elastigirl's powers increasing her sex appeal.     And that is a movie still on the public's collective conscience, albeit as "that movie that came between Finding Nemo and Cars."

Pixar as a company I believe takes more risks then Disney. And while Disney may show a few instances of something interesting, generally they've been pretty safe with their stuff aimed towards kids as of late.

[- Eternal Paradox -]

The Incredibles referred directly to the deaths of many of the superhero characters in the backstory and even implied how they died (including showing a decayed corpse of one of them who was mentioned in the beginning of the film), showed the on-screen death of several of Syndrome's henchmen, had said henchmen attempting to kill child characters with guns, played the extremely graphic death of a superhero just off screen as a joke about superhero fashion sense (alongside the deaths of several others for roughly the same joke), repeated that same instance at the end of the movie completely arrow-straight-serious for the death of the villain and showed far more of it than earlier, and had the main character threaten to murder Syndrome's mistress on screen. And there were two completely separate jokes made in the film about Elastigirl's powers increasing her sex appeal.

 

Can you name/reference a few, please? Because the way I see it, he was just knocking them unconscious, as Super-Heroes are wont to do.

Not to mention the fact this started off as a Warner Bros. animation, but meh, I guess Disney released it and were heavily involved in it's production.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Can you name/reference a few, please? Because the way I see it, he was just knocking them unconscious, as Super-Heroes are wont to do.

Not to mention the fact this started off as a Warner Bros. animation, but meh, I guess Disney released it and were heavily involved in it's production.

How about the explosions when they were chasing Dash around the island? I'd even go so far as mention how Mr. Incredible threw a large transport reduced to scrap-metal at two guards while he was infiltrating the base - clearly they couldn't have survived that.

[- Eternal Paradox -]

How about the explosions when they were chasing Dash around the island? I'd even go so far as mention how Mr. Incredible threw a large transport reduced to scrap-metal at two guards while he was infiltrating the base - clearly they couldn't have survived that.

The explosion, yes, I can understand that (unless they ejected beforehand, but we clearly see one crash into a cliffside)

, but the large transport? Hmm. They were wearing body armour, and let's not forget the "cartoony" quality of this work. So, I wouldn't say clearly, more like open to interpretation. Until I see their cold, lifeless bodies on a post-mortem slab, I refuse to believe they are dead.

 

But maybe you're right. Maybe Mr. Incredible really is a murdering pyshcopath... One thing's clear is there is a large ammount of violence and death in this film.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Paradise

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They were wearing body armour,

Since when in the blue hell did body armor protect people from something as large as a transport carry? Do you even know how body armor even works?

 

and let's not forget the "cartoony" quality of this work. 

That "cartoony" quality didn't stop the characters from being realistically harmed on screen. There were no cartoon physics involved here, and Elastigirl flat out lampshades it when telling her children that the soldiers on the island would kill them if they were spotted.

 

Until I see their cold, lifeless bodies on a post-mortem slab, I refuse to believe they are dead.

By that logic, those soldiers chasing Dash should still be alive despite being caught in the explosions afterward.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[- Eternal Paradox -]

Eh, just ignore me for now, I'm an old sentimental who dislikes the death of fictional characters who I've never met. Heck, I felt sorry for the time eater, for crying out loud.

Since when in the blue hell did body armor protect people from something as large as a transport carry? Do you even know how body armor even works?

Ahem, Syndrome, scientific genius, would probably be able to create something like that. No, no I don't know how body amour works, the closest I've ever come to it was a plastic knight amour my grandmother bought me. I'm grappling at straws, I guess it's how much I want these people not to be dead. And these are the bad guys.

 

I'm also uncomfortable with the idea of Mr. Incredible going into a mini-bus, and murdering a group of guards whist his family is outside watching.

 

That "cartoony" quality didn't stop the characters from being realistically harmed on screen. There were no cartoon physics involved here, and Elastigirl flat out lampshades it when telling her children that the soldiers on the island would kill them if they were spotted.

 

You know, after I typed that line I thought of all those people with their broken necks. Ouch.

 

Eh, as I said, I'm a wimp who dislikes death. You're probably right about everything.

And I don't really want a fight right now.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Paradise

[Tornado]

The only time in the movie that it took a superhero writing trope and used it regularly was when Samuel L. Jackson froze that cop and the movie did that Mr. Freeze-style "he's still awake in there" thing. Otherwise they showed (fairly) realistic consequences for most of the ideas commonly used in the genre. The movie even made a major plot point out of defying that "catch falling characters in midair and they'll be fine" thing that is almost always played arrow straight in every comic book available by having Mr. Incredible accidentally break the guy's back.

[Kuzu]

Well is that what we need to do with Sonic then, show somewhat realistic consequences to his actions and start deconstructing everything that makes the series what it is?

[Tornado]

Well is that what we need to do with Sonic then, show somewhat realistic consequences to his actions and start deconstructing everything that makes the series what it is?

 

I'm not saying it has to deconstruct anything. What I'm saying is that it would be nice for the player's/Sonic's motivation to at least have some consistency for what kind of thing is bad and needs to be stopped at all costs and what kind of thing is an annoyance and might as well be stopped on the way to the end of the game.