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Legosi (Tani Coyote)

Favorite Non-Robotnik Sonic Villain(s)?

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No love for the leaf?

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S.T.C. had lots of entertaining one shot villains as well as good recurring ones too, of the recurring ones there were

 

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Agent X, a special agent of robotnik who had probably the best twist of the series, which sadly got reversed later on.

 

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Captain Plunder, who kind of flip flopped between being a goodie and baddie but how can you not love this guy?

 

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Commander Brutus who was built with Robotnik's brain power but eventually turned against him, slowly stealing and re-programming badniks for a few months in the comic it was an awesome storyline.

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In the games it seems unclear whether Metal Sonic is sapient or just a glorified badnik.

With OVA it's made quite clear that Metal Sonic is much like Sonic, almost him exactly, at least after Tails messes with him, which makes him sympathetic and causes Sonic to show concern for him, and yeah, makes his death pretty darn sad.

Though when he's still on Eggman''s side he doesn't seem to be able to resist making a small shot at Sonic by making the old man wear Sonic's favorite clothes, a sense of humor have we?

Edited by Mysterics

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Caliburn mentions in Knight's Passage that she has a type of magic called "High Ancient Magic". Presumably this kind of magic is where her spell to place the kingdom in stasis originates and gains a lot of it's power from the scabbard. The stasis magic was spreading from the castle and the knights take it upon themselves to activate barrier stones in The Cauldron, Shrouded Forest, Dragon's Lair and Great Megalith in order to confine the spell and to prevent it's spread across the kingdom. The barrier turns out to be too weak to contain the spell so Sonic takes it upon himself to confront her personally.

 

Merlina's intentions were to place the entirety of the kingdom under her stasis spell in order to freeze it in time and therefore prevents it's ruinous future from coming to fruition. She did this without any care for the kingdom's citizens and Caliburn himself brands her selfish for this because she's willing to inflict it just to escape her own sorrow

 

Ahh knew I could count on you to clear that up Verte.  =D  Thanks for the insight/refresher (remembered some of it but not all), I like Merlina a little more now.  The misguidedness of deciding a frozen kingdom is better than one that goes on but eventually dies is a way more interesting motive than usual.

 

The only thing I dislike about Merlina now is that the scene with the flower is literally the only telling point of what is to come, whereas Erazor had a lot of little hints about his backstory and reasoning for his motives scattered throughout the plot, through his own words and actions as well as how Shahra spoke of him to Sonic one-on-one.

Edited by JezMM

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The only thing I dislike about Merlina now is that the scene with the flower is literally the only telling point of what is to come, whereas Erazor had a lot of little hints about his backstory and reasoning for his motives scattered throughout the plot, through his own words and actions as well as how Shahra spoke of him to Sonic one-on-one.

 

Isn't it a sign of a smart villain they don't leave a trail of cookie crumbs, though?

 

It's really what makes her twist so shocking; she's painted as Shahra 2.0, but rather than just deceiving you and unwillingly aiding the villain, she flatout becomes the villain herself!

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Isn't it a sign of a smart villain they don't leave a trail of cookie crumbs, though?

 

It's really what makes her twist so shocking; she's painted as Shahra 2.0, but rather than just deceiving you and unwillingly aiding the villain, she flatout becomes the villain herself!

 

 

I think what JezMM means is that the only problem with the foreshadowing of Merlina's true motive in the story was her barely being in it as well as the moment with the flower. While it made sense in regard for her to lay low and not join Sonic and Caliburn because she was a wanted fugitive, it also makes her seem rather underdeveloped compared to Shahra, who had more screentime throughout Secret Rings and got to know her role in the story and ties to Erazor.

 

 

That's not to say she should've been more like Shahra, because she'd just be Shahra 2.0 if she was. I just honestly think the effective plot twist has a minor setback in regards to having her character not as nearly fleshed out as Shahra's, if that makes sense.

Edited by DarkLightDragon

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Didn't Metal's SONIC CHANNEL profile state that Eggman punished him by reprogramming his AI chip and returning him to a loyal battle robot?

 

How did I miss this?

 

Remember folks. Robots can't have souls. That free will is but an illusion!

 

Just ask Sonic. He murders supposedly sentient robots all the time.

 

(I'll just chime in here I was shocked with how ruthlessly he killed Heavy and Bomb in the comics; I would've thought he'd have the slightest bit of remorse since they were good guys for so long... shows his value of robotic life at least)

 

I think what JezMM means is that the only problem with the foreshadowing of Merlina's true motive in the story was her barely being in it as well as the moment with the flower. While it made sense in regard for her to lay low and not join Sonic and Caliburn because she was a wanted fugitive, it also makes her seem rather underdeveloped compared to Shahra, who had more screentime throughout Secret Rings and got to know her role in the story and ties to Erazor.

 

 

That's not to say she should've been more like Shahra, because she'd just be Shahra 2.0 if she was. I just honestly think the effective plot twist has a minor setback in regards to having her character not as nearly fleshed out as Shahra's, if that makes sense.

 

Hmm. In retrospect they probably could have fleshed her out more, yes. Though it seems she had to compete with the Knights, Nimue and Caliburn for screen time, which I presume is also a contributor to her lower amount of development.

 

==

 

Really I always liked villains whose motives are something besides being hopelessly evil. Shadow had insane devotion to what he thought was his best friend's dying wish, and Merlina had a desire to spare herself sorrow. It's refreshing compared to the usual "Rule the world" or "sew chaos" motive.

 

I suppose I'll vouch for Shadow during his brief tenure as a villain. Though it's downplayed, he was incredibly clever, manipulating Eggman into collecting the emeralds for him so Gerald's plan could go ahead. Really he dukes it out with Gerald as the real antagonist of SA2, I think.

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Isn't it a sign of a smart villain they don't leave a trail of cookie crumbs, though?

 

It's really what makes her twist so shocking; she's painted as Shahra 2.0, but rather than just deceiving you and unwillingly aiding the villain, she flatout becomes the villain herself!

In a way, yes it is. However, it's a sign of a weak plot when you, the viewer, can't connect the dots so that the conclusion can add up.

 

As effective as the twist was in being shocking, Merlina's reveal sat on a very thin edge between Cheknov's Gun and Diabolus Ex Machina (Ass Pull for the villian) if you analyzed it more from the cutscenes. You know she's worrying about something dying from her comment about the flower she used as a metaphor for the kingdom, and this is what makes it the Cheknov's Gun. However, you don't see how what she was doing would lead up to the twist where she sets herself up as the villain. It's one thing to mislead the viewer in that what seems like a hero really was the villain under your nose, that's part of what a Cheknov's Gun can be used for. But you still have to let the viewer connect the dots so that they can make a decent conclusion before showing them the correct answer through the twist.

 

...or maybe that's exactly what happened and perhaps I need to rewatch those cutscenes again. Because to be perfectly honest, it's been a VERY long time since I last watched it and my memory has definitely faded on the Black Knight, and I'm really just providing some literary knowledge than anything. Or Verte could clear it up and save me the time. wink.png

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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Another reason why I think more could've been done with Merlina prior to the twist was maybe finding out the circumstances as to what happenend before the game's events. The game's intro has her fleeing from King Arthur. What did she do to warrant such a chase? Did she try to snatch his scabbard behind his back, got caught in the act and proceeded to make a run for it? That's how I like to think that went down.

 

Though I can see how that plot point may not be that important and would not have changed anything if included, let me offer this other possible insight...

 

Her relationship with her grandfather, Merlin.

 

It seems clear she learned everything she knew about magic from him and for all we know the two had a very close bond despite her disagreement with how he wanted to story to end. Let's even take into account that Merlin eventually dies in the original story of King Arthur and leaves the kingdom to die alone and it's likely to have happenend before SatBK's events. I'm just trying to imagine how heartbroken and devastated Merlina must have been to say goodbye to her grandfather and be forbidden to go with him in his last hours. This kind of loss could've given Merlina another (or maybe even psychological) reason to pursue an eternal kingdom coupled with her knowledge of the kingdom's grim fate.

Edited by DarkLightDragon

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In retrospect perhaps she should have mentioned something along the lines of Arthur destroying the Kingdom and how they had to do ANYTHING to stop him. At first glance the comment isn't that important, but it all makes sense later on. :P

 

Another reason why I think more could've been done with Merlina prior to the twist was maybe finding out the circumstances as to what happenend before the game's events. The game's intro has her fleeing from King Arthur. What did she do to warrant such a chase? Did she try to snatch his scabbard behind his back, got caught in the act and proceeded to make a run for it? That's how I like to think that went down.

 

Ah, I'm also of this opinion. I'm guessing that Merlina probably assumed that since she's of the same bloodline she could control him. SURPRISE, he's just as rebellious as any of Eggman's robots and it's not that easy.

 

Or heck, maybe Arthur had become semi-sentient and knew that killing her was the best way to ensure he couldn't cease to exist. Automatons are pretty good at developing self-preservation logic that compels them to murder their creator or anyone who could emulate them.

 

Hence, she needs to use Sonic to do the dirty work for her either way. She's certainly no heroic warrior so can't do it herself, and the Knights are blindingly loyal. Enter the Hedgehog. 

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That's debatable.

Metal Sonic is a robot. And you can easily get away with a deus ex machina for him by saying that his memories were stored from a distance and copied in another body to use. It could very easily be his very of Shadow's survival in the OVA of they chose to take that route. (Of course having the data disc destroyed near the end kinda subverts that, but still...)

Heck, it's easy to argue that this is exactly what may have happened to Metal in the games since his return in Heroes. But Heroes has a weak plot, so meh...

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With no further exploration of that continuity I'm inclined to think, what with his "There is only one Sonic" quote, he was content to die for good. That and, as you said, it seems pretty clear that anything about him was on the data disc; even if it hadn't been destroyed Eggman made it clear he intended to purge it of any positive personality traits.

 

This isn't even getting into identity crisis issues: if a new Metal WAS created from the disc, is it really him, or just a copy of the original's programming? There's no way of knowing, which is the real horror of it. He will think he's the original if he is or isn't.

 

I'm content to leave Metal Sonics returning from being melted alive to Shard, actually. This is making my brain hurt. :(

Edited by Ogilvie Maurice

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As much as I like Eggman as a villain, Metal Sonic is my favorite. I would like to see a game where he gets a mind of his own again, and goes against Sonic and his friends without the help of Eggman. (Like in Sonic Heroes)

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As much as I like Eggman as a villain, Metal Sonic is my favorite. I would like to see a game where he gets a mind of his own again, and goes against Sonic and his friends without the help of Eggman. (Like in Sonic Heroes)

Metal Sonic betraying Eggman... Now, I loved Sonic CD, and I would never imagine Metal betraying Eggman. Ever. Seeing that in Heroes was a totally random and stupid move in my opinion. To see him do it again would be outrageous, especially now that we have finally gotten off the "Eggman is betrayed by a robot/monster and must sit on the sidelines and do nothing" plot.

Edited by Dr. Homem

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Don't ever look up the plot to Sonic Free Riders then, whatever you do.

Ah, yes. I'm not even sure if I should count Free Riders because the plot is basically the exact same as Heroes (down to the data-copying, the teams, even Amy's crazyness) but with boards.

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For me, it's got to be Dark Enerjak.

 

High five!

 

He's easily one of the most intimidating villains by far; shame he was comic-only.

 

And of course it was oh so satisfying to see him finally get his face punched in by Silver. I'd actually like if Silver would feel uncomfortable around Knuckles should they ever meet in the Archie strip, at least for a bit. Just because he knows that's something he's fully capable of...

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You know, I really wanted to say Metal Sonic.  When Sonic Heroes was first announced, I was so excited that Metal Sonic would make a return.  But gosh, his script was so incredibly disappointing in that game that it was upsetting.  Still, though, I have fondness for him and hope one day he'll return with proper dignity.

 

Other than that, I really like the Biolizard.  I liked the idea of there being some out-of-control giant lizard that was just one fatal weakness away from destroying everything.  I don't understand how Gerald thinks "Okay, let's make it a dinosaur... NO WAIT!  THAT'S TERRIBLE.  A HEDGEHOG!" but whatever.

 

If I were able to read the comics, then I'd probably have a longer list, but that's pretty much all I have.

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Other than that, I really like the Biolizard.  I liked the idea of there being some out-of-control giant lizard that was just one fatal weakness away from destroying everything.  I don't understand how Gerald thinks "Okay, let's make it a dinosaur... NO WAIT!  THAT'S TERRIBLE.  A HEDGEHOG!" but whatever.

 

The stronger an angel is, the more humanoid it is. The stronger a demon

is, the more beastly it becomes. You can see some amusing symbolism of

this in Shadow and the Biolizard's design.

But, as to the more practical, scientific rationale:

The project is easily explained I think; the Biolizard's an early prototype

and it's VERY likely that there were more in between him and Shadow. As

one of the first raw experiments, naturally it's beastly, hideous,

flawed. You often make mistakes before you succeed.

I presume it was this hideous monstrosity that convinced Gerald he needed outside

assistance, hence the Black Arms plot (Which I think is unnecessary and

would have preferred Gerald just keep on working until he perfected

Shadow on his own, but I'm just acknowledging canon).

After trial and error, you replace gargantuan proportions with a compact body,

hideousness with aesthetic appeal, and create a being that can sustain

itself and its immense power without outside assistance.

Really, if we tampered with genetic modification in real life I presume we'd end

up with the same result: lots of defective, deformed experiments before

we finally nailed it and created one without such flaws (which I

imagine is a main reason why such research hasn't even been remotely

touched).

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