Hero style or villain style for final boss music?

[Emmett L. Brown]

Final boss themes usually come in two flavours. There's the "dark bad things happening villain on the verge of success" type, and then there's the "big damn hero powered up and finally saving the world" type. The former is usually built around the villain's musical theme or some general dark threatening mood, while the latter is usually the hero's musical theme, the main theme of the game or a general kick-ass mood.

 

How's this apply to Sonic? Pretty well. Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles all villain style music for the final boss fight. It's music celebrating Eggman in his deadliest position yet. It's not until Sonic Adventure that we get the first half of the final boss fight's music cheering on the heroes with the awesome Open Your Heart, but then switching back to villain style for the final rendition of Chaos's theme for the second half (they totally should've switched them around, in my view). Sonic Adventure 2's final boss with the equally awesome Live and Learn is hero style all the way.

 

More recently, both Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors did villain style for the first half of the fight and then hero style for the second half, when Super Sonic attacks and Sonic saves most of the Wisps respectively. Finally, there's Sonic Generations which stuck solely with villain style as the final boss theme was just a rather unimpressive version of the Time Eater's theme...unless you cound the Sonic 4 invincibility music kicking in when you deliver the final hit to the boss.

 

The point is, both styles can work really well, and sometimes one definitely works better than the other. Using the Dark Queen's villainous character theme for the final boss of Sonic & the Black Knight was awesome, but as mentioned the Time Eater wasn't especially so. Using Live & Learn for the final boss of Sonic Adventure 2 and thus ignoring the Biolizard's musical theme was a good call, since Sonic and Shadow working together to save the world was much more thematically engaging than personality-stripped monster hell-bent on destroying Earth.

 

Which do you prefer? Which were the best choices of hero style or villain style for the final bosses of past games?

[Mr. Taxi]

That's something I had never thought about. What an interesting topic.

 

I must say I usually prefer the ominous themes in themselves. But, as you said, SA2 works with the hero style because of the theme. I believe that's not a question to be answered, really. It depends on the progression of the game and the contrast to something. I think it's safe to say villain style final bosses work well with games in which you start with a positive status quo/environment, such as the classics. Sonic Unleashed, starting with the ominous giant, tells the story of you building up strength to face the monster. In this case, I think the hero style has more impact.

 

I personally love all of the classic finall boss themes bar American Sonic CD... but it must be because it doesn't feature such thing. Final Fever, on the other hand, is amazing. I also have Sonic Advance 3's Altar Emerald in high regard (and I think the "environmental" theme counts as well for the atmosphere). As for heroic final boss themes... no, I don't like many of them. Of course, there's Solaris Phase 2, but I don't think it fits at all. A great tune in itself, though.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Palas

[Salamander]

I think in general you want to start with a villain theme and then switch to a hero theme. If it's a matter of there being a literal boss form change, then if the boss starts weaker and gets stronger, it can make some sense to go from a hero theme to a villain theme. But mostly I think the hero theme can make a lot more sense if the hero's been in an underdog position for most of the game one way or another. The villain's last stand is the hero's triumph. As far as Super final battles are concerned then hero themes are always going to be more fitting.

[Semi-colon e]

I'm liking the 06-Colours style, where you have the main ominous final boss music, especially in Colours where the otherwise light tone makes this part have more impact, but then towards the end it goes heroic because you're on the last leg, you're gonna win and the music is cheering you on.

 

CD JP and Generations have the problem of it being "intense dark boss music" but they sounded very mid-game sort of thing, rather than the climatic doom of say Big Swell (or even Deep Core) and the Classic themes. CD US barely even changes the music, which was a wasted opportunity all round.

 

I also like the 2D handhelds having pinch themes for bosses, even if it's the final boss, the Wrapped in Black pinch was so fucking good and the Rush Adventure main boss pinch was pretty crazy.

[Carbo]

I miss the villain style final boss music. I dunno, I always felt that the heroic orchestral reprise of the game's main theme was just a cheap way to raise the stakes and imply that shit has gotten real.

The Time Eater theme gets so much flack I'm kind of surprised - I thought it was one of the freshest takes of a final boss theme, and it felt incredibly intense. Just listening to it on it's own it also incorporates a lot of things that's been exempt from Sonic themes; namely synths and guitars. I hate this notion that "orchestra" is the only cheap way to create tension. So many of my favorite final boss themes of all time are anything but such. A recent example I can think of is Anarchy Reigns. It actually starts off with a cheap orchestral score for the first phase, but then after about 5 minutes you spend in that phase it turns into a villain-style ruthless Rock/RnB track.

But really going back to Time Eater it's surprising to see so many people just not like that theme. It's original, has a strong production semblance to the Death Egg/Doomsday style of final boss, it's got a catchy melody and synth line, and that subtle arpeggio is the icing on the cake. I love listening to it, it feels new and far more serious than any other Sonic track in these past couple of years.

[JezMM]

My main problem with Time Eater's theme is it just wasn't "big" sounding enough for the final boss in an anniversary game.  It did not in the slightest make me go "whoa" like the grand remixes of the main theme in the previous three main titles did (Solaris being the exception due to being such an unexciting boss).

 

Time Eater just has a dissonance to the action to me.  Funnily enough it feels like it'd be more fitting for a slower boss like Solaris.  I do love Time Eater's theme, but the problem is we had already heard it in every single cut-scene the Time Eater appeared in beforehand.  Same reason I Am... All Of Me and Seven Rings In Hand were such weak final boss themes as well - we'd already heard them a ton of times.

 

I actually prefer the theme that plays when Sonics are fighting him in the cut-scene before getting knocked out.  That was way more intense and exciting.  Forgive the lack of musical terms from me but I love that sort of "clacky"/"clappy" percussion and the sense of urgency.  At the very least it could have made a great pinch theme for the final hit, better than the Sonic 4 theme anyway.

 

 

 

As for triumphant versus evil, I really really love the final boss themes from 2006/Unleashed/Colours.  I consider them a slightly seperate category from the likes of Adventure/Adventure 2/Heroes/Shadow actually, since despite being main theme reprises they are "dark" reprises.  They still have a sense of urgency and danger to them and I love that.

 

 

I certainly would like to see more variety than just orchestral + rock versions though.

[Candescence]

I agree with Carbo that more villain-themed final boss themes are needed.

 

Besides, Super Castlevania IV did both far better than any Sonic games ever did, and with only 16-bit sound, to boot.

is creepy and very foreboding. It makes it clear that you're fighting fucking Dracula, and that dude ain't gonna have mercy on you, and the theme starts right after you beat Death and are heading up to the keep, making the final walk there tense and exciting.

 

And during the second phase. Simon Belmont's Theme features an awesome build-up (including thunder, no less) before it goes absolutely nuts. It's why I dislike nearly every remix of Simon's Theme, because they just don't have that amazing build-up (and an electric guitar is goddamn required for nearly any remix of that song). One of the main exceptions is the Harmony of Despair remix, which I absolutely love.

 

And SCV4 finishes off with an http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7laVyX5sz0I, to boot. Castlevania, much like Sonic, has a history of fucking fantastic music. Even when a game is bad, the music is gonna be stellar regardless.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Masaru Daimon

[Semi-colon e]

In terms of final boss theme variety in Sonic, Wrapped in Black was pretty good. It had the whole choir thing and even a fast paced pinch version, but beyond that it was very funk based and was like the most "ghetto", maybe? (I can't explain this properly) final boss theme in the series.

 

Also I love What I'm Made of for being it's own theme. It wasn't anywhere else in the game, so a pumping song that comes out of nowhere does pretty well, especially contrasting with the mostly orchestral Metal Madness theme, which had bits of slightly mechanical sounding stuff too.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Semi-colon e

[Kuzu]

I  think it depends on the context of the boss itself really. I like to feel heroic during a final boss, but I also think it needs to have some bit of foreboding too.

[buba]

I prefer the "villain style" for final bosses. It gives more emotion to the fight, you know that this guy isn't playing anymore, he wants you to die right now since this is his last chance to suceed but also yours to save the day.

Having a "Go! Go! Sonic!" music sounds very one-sided and like Sonic says: "I beat you all the time by myself".

Again, having a villain styled music for the final boss makes it look more menacing and an actual threat than just Monster of the Week/Eggman Mech #308.

 

[Jango]

It's interesting how the villain style theme are most represented during... Eggman vs Sonic(alone) boss battles. It shows how determined to kill Sonic the doctor is, and I think this is a really neat aspect, Eggman is always the real menace. The hero theme goes well when Sonic's friends are cheering for him, you feel like theirs hero, you can't loose, so is fitting and neat as well. I do prefer the villain style, because I prefer Eggman vs Sonic battles more than giant monsters, so yeah.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Jango

[Emmett L. Brown]

Also I love What I'm Made of for being it's own theme. It wasn't anywhere else in the game, so a pumping song that comes out of nowhere does pretty well, especially contrasting with the mostly orchestral Metal Madness theme, which had bits of slightly mechanical sounding stuff too.

I especially enjoy What I'm Made Of since depending on how you look at the lyrics, it kinda works for both Sonic and Metal Sonic. Metal Sonic because he's finally showing his true self and demonstrating how far he's willing to go to kill Sonic, and showing that he's got ambitions beyond what he was programmed to do. And it works for Sonic, because he's proving himself to be far more than the data Metal collected from him.

 

The only other game where the final boss theme empowers both the hero and villain that comes to mind right now is Overlord.

the dark climax remix of the Overlord main theme both works for the super-evil Old Overlord trying to usurp your title, and for yourself as the new Overlord proving yourself more than your predecessor's puppet

[Diogenes]

I like both. I think whether the theme succeeds or fails has more to do with the story properly supporting its tone, and it just being a good song in the first place, than whether it's specifically hero-focused or villain-focused. Still, I think some of my favorites are when they start with a villain-focused theme and then switch to a hero-focused theme. The bad guy still gets his time, but you also get the moment where the tables turn, where good proves itself strong enough to overcome evil.

[Scar]

I'm with Carbo. Time Eater was a refreshing change of pace and a very well done piece of original music.

 

Also, I don't mind the use of more heroic pieces towards the end of the fight to suggest good finally winning over evil, I just don't want it to be an orchestral remix of the main theme of the game. One thing I felt Jun Senoue got right in Heroes and in Black Knight, was the use of a much darker, harder song for the final boss track (it is therefore no surprise that With Me and What I'm Made Of are two of my favorite Sonic songs). Those tracks definitely raise the stakes and there isn't an orchestra in sight......and I actively LIKE orchestral music. 

[Kuzu]

I think remixes of the main theme work if you've only been given bits and pieces of it throughout the game: one thing I love about SA2 is how you hear the instrumental of Live and Learn throughout the entire game, and have no idea what piece of music it is, but then during the final fight you hear the complete version. It just makes it more awesome.

 

 

 

Constantly having the main theme shoved down your throat throughout the entire game kinda makes a remix underwhelming.

[Pawn]

It's been said several times, but either is fine so long as it compliments the situation. Doomsday's is perfect for a desperate chase, while Live and Learn works really well because it's more about Sonic and Shadow teaming up. I'm not keen on splitting up the final boss into two for the sake of it, as in Adventure and '06, even if I do like the extra music that comes out of it. Solaris did transform, yeah, but it didn't exactly change the battle much.

 

As for the styles of music, I had to go back and watch the bosses from '06, Unleashed and Colours to refresh my memory. Surprisingly, '06's themes are the only ones I find memorable (I instantly recognised them), despite it being the game I've played the least. =p I have no problem with an orchestral ending, but they don't exactly cement themselves in my mind like the others. In the case of Colours, I would have preferred something more specific to Eggman, given that he is an important recurring character.

 

Time Eater has a good theme, and it was nice to break away from had become the usual orchestral remix. It's just a pity that it's lost in all of the noise from the ring counter's bleeping, character voices and other assorted sound effects.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Pawn

[Scar]

I just have to point out the unbridled genius that this song is and how perfectly suited it is for the job of "final boss music"

 

 

Awesome stuff. We need more stuff like this to go along with the orchestral stuff to break the monotony....

[Gregzilla]

When it comes to final bosses in Sonic, I think the coolest way to set up the music is to have a dark, villainous theme play first, then switch to an adrenaline-pumping heroic theme once things heat up.  This isn't Sonic exclusive - I think this is an awesome musical choice for other games as well (when the tone fits - if it's a darker game, switching to heroic probably isn't a great idea).

 

I'd say the Solaris fight - despite sucking in and of itself - does the best job of this.  The first theme that plays just screams "Well, you are all going to fucking die."  It really sets the right tone for fighting a giant god of time and space.  But then once Phase 2 kicks in, it signifies that the heroes have a shot after all, and it gets the player in the ass-kicking mood.

 

It helps if the fight is actually good in the gameplay department, though.  A lot of things go into account when creating the right tone.

[ArtFenix]

I know this isn't the final boss fight but man.. These are the darkest pieces of music in the whole history of the series! I would love to hear something like this in Sonic games from time to time. Such unique music for the series!

 

I don't mind Heroes type songs either if done right. Sa, Sa2, SNG and Unleashed did it right. Colors...meh. But yeah, I don't mind either of the styles. Just keep in mind that the series is already too lighthearted and for me some serious or dark stuff is always welcomed. They should take the situations seriously when there is need in that.

Edited February 9, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Old dead account]

I think the 3D Sonic games (aside from SA1 do it right). I like for the first phase of a last boss' music to instill a sense of fear and hopelessness in you while the second/final phase give a heroic victory stretch theme signifying you've almost won nothing is more satisfying than that combo. I'd also say that the buildup towards the final boss which Unleashed nailed perfectly amplifies it even more but that's for another topic.

[DarkLight]

I'm good with both. Like most have said, it depends on the situation and tone. Definetly needs to have some foreboding that makes you brace for the worst but also give a sense of hope, giving you the feeling that 'it's now or never, you can take this guy down cause' you've too far to let it all go to waste.'

 

 

While 'With Me' (one of my favorite final boss songs) was omnious/dark in it's sound, the lyrics emphasized the 'I'm gonna take you down and make you regret ever facing me.' In way it was the best of both worlds since the heroic and villain parts were mostly exclusive within the song and wasn't segragated into two phases like Solaris, Dark Gaia or Nega Wisp (which I'm cool with, too). 

Edited February 9, 2013 by DarkLightDragon

[a mystery]

Exactly how Before the Sequel did it.

Ode to Shattered Illusions ...for Final Boss is a pretty ominous track, and is more villain-y than heroes-y.

And if you get there fast enough, after you beat the boss...

Like a comment says, victory is now in your hands. ...Well, unless you run out of rings and lives, that is. That's why it goes into the main theme of Before the Sequel and Sweet Dreams.

 

This - having the boss theme villain-style and a bonus boss hero-style - is a pattern I think is pretty good, but in other cases, some other things can be arranged.

 

The fictional game behind my CanofNothing: Project Flash OST is supposed to have a pretty light-hearted plot for Episode 1, and because of that, I plan to have the final boss theme leaning more to the hero side. If I ever make an Episode 2 OST, due to it's more serious (not like how 06 did it, though), I'll definitely make it more leaning to the villain style.

 

...And then make a bonus boss leaning to full hero-style.

 

...I'm sorry for not touching any official Sonic games in this post.

 

(EDIT: Also, I'm expecting a Gangnam Style joke about "Hero-style" or "Villain-style" :U

Edited February 9, 2013 by Can of Nothing

[MamboCat]

As my favourite final bosses are Sonic 2 and Sonic 3/& Knuckles' I'd say I'm probably a fan of the more villainous final boss music. Death Egg Robot's music is almost military in style as the robot marches up and down trying to squash you. Then after you defeat it, it's followed by some gentle music with some nice scenes depicting the demise of the final boss and Sonic's return. I've always thought that worked really well.

 

Sonic 3/& Knuckles final boss has a terrifying atmosphere (it's a giant fucking robot, in space, with the Master Emerald! As STC put it: Disaster!) and the desperate sounding music is very fitting.

 

I do quite like some of the final boss themes of the later games, ones which focus on the characters but for me the final boss is about atmosphere; it's the final showdown with the big, bad enemy. The celebration of Sonic's triumph with more upbeat music is your reward after you defeat the bugger!

[Burtzman]

The villainous final boss music is usually better because it helps make the boss seem more intimidating.

The only time I like Hero style music is in Adventure 2 because I can rock out to Live and Learn and kick ass.

 

Also, I actually like the Time Eater theme.

[ArtFenix]

Am I the only one who finds Solaris p2 music to be heroic AND serious sounding? I mean I don't get a feeling it's a heroic track through and through.