Are there only 7 Chaos Emeralds?

[andrewtuell1991]

What proof is there that those islands all had different sets of emeralds?

 

The japanese manuals of Sonics 1, 2, and 3 does kinda suggest this.  Taken from the translations at Sonic Retro:

 

Sonic 1

South Island is a treasure trove of gems and ancient ruins. They say that it's the island where the mystical Chaos Emeralds lie. The Chaos Emeralds are a super-material that give energy to all living beings. Also, when applied to scientific purposes, they can be used for nuclear and laser based weaponry. However, nobody knows exactly how to get ahold of these emeralds. At the same time, though, they do say that the reason why South Island is always moving is because the emeralds are somewhere inside the island's hazy depths.

 

Sonic 2

From the forest echoed that all too familiar vulgar laugh. It's him - the one and only Dr. Eggman.

"I've found it at last! The place where the Chaos Emeralds sleep! Following Sonic worked out perfectly! Now I should be able to finish my ultimate weapon: The Death Egg! I"ll be waiting for you, Sonic! This time, my friend, this time I will beat you, and all the Emeralds will be mine! Then I shall be the conqueror of the entire world! Gya— Ha Ha Ha Ha!"

 

That place it's referring to is West Side Island.  And now from Sonic 3:

That day, as he always seemed to, he was making his patrol around the alter on the island. Protecting the 7 Chaos Emeralds who sleep and control the power of the "Pillar" is the mission he has been charged with.

His name, Knuckles the Echidna. But to inhabitants of the island, he is an echidna called "Knuckle." Born and raised on the island, all of nature and the animals who live in it are his friends. And that which protects his friends is none other than the Chaos Emerald's crystaline "Pillar."

Suddenly something awoke.

Just as he was verifying that that not one Chaos Emerald was out of place, the Chaos Emerald right before his eyes rose and a strange vibration started.

Knuckles was confused by this phenomenon, which had never occurred before. In the blink of an eye, violent shaking occurred within the Chaos Emeralds. Then, as the shaking reached its climax, a "kiiiin" sound was heard along with a brilliant flash. The next thing Knuckles remembered was his own body, seeming to be lightly floating, and at that moment he was interrupted.

When Knuckles regained consciousness, he found his body thrown outside of the altar. He slowly got up, and what entered his eyes as he looked around was the Chaos Emerald altar--partially destroyed. In a fury, Knuckles flew into the altar. However, in place of the emerald that should have been there, were fragments left of what had disappeared...

From the parts in bold, the Japanese manuals of the Mega Drive Trilogy does seem to suggest multiple emeralds, supposing Sonic Retro translated them correctly that is.  If Knuckles was protecting the Floating Island's emeralds, how did Sonic collect them so fast for the intro to happen?  And how Knuckles lose those emeralds so fast for Sonic to be able to re-collect them so fast? (You can collect to 4 emeralds on Angel Island alone)   And from Sonic 1 to 2 how did the emeralds travel from South Island to West Side Island?  And what were they doing on those Islands in the first place if Knuckles was guarding them just prior to the events of Sonic 3? And why did Knuckles go from fiercely protecting ALL the emeralds to just caring about the Master Emerald from S3&K to Sonic Adventure? And...

 

This is why I'm in favor of a canon reboot.

Edited February 10, 2013 by andrewtuell1991

[Diogenes]

The japanese manuals of Sonics 1, 2, and 3 does kinda suggest this.  Taken from the translations at Sonic Retro:

"They say" a lot of things. Yes, every island has legends about the emeralds. But note that the emeralds are not, by all appearances, actually on those islands (Angel Island/Hidden Palace excepted; I can't explain what the deal is with that). What is on the island, are portals to an unknown dimension, where the emeralds actually are. Why should we assume there are multiple sets of emeralds, rather than that the portals lead to the same place?

[MamboCat]

I always thought it was 7 Chaos Emeralds as a parody of the Dragonballs... the early differences like there being only 4 of them in AoSTH is just a symptom of the different ways the franchise was interpreted, surely?

 

Also, guess what I'm gonna say.... yeah...

 

I liked STC's explanation of the super emeralds; that somehow they were split from the original 7 into two sets; and restoring the two sets into one turned them back into their "super emerald" appearance.

[andrewtuell1991]

"They say" a lot of things. Yes, every island has legends about the emeralds. But note that the emeralds are not, by all appearances, actually on those islands (Angel Island/Hidden Palace excepted; I can't explain what the deal is with that). What is on the island, are portals to an unknown dimension, where the emeralds actually are. Why should we assume there are multiple sets of emeralds, rather than that the portals lead to the same place?

 

Because how could Sonic fly to Angel Island as Super Sonic if the Chaos Emeralds on Floating Island were knocked off by the Death Egg just a few days ago?  I guess if Tails used his Jewel Reader that might be possible, but what the good endings from Sonic 1 and Sonic 2?

[Sholz]

*all that post*

 See that's the kind of stuff I like to see.

 

Your first four questions do imply that there may be multiple sets of emeralds, one set each for South Island, West Island, and Angel Island. I always thought the emeralds from 1 & 2 were the same, but I haven't read the manuals in a long time. Neat.

I think Knuckles may have become a bit more lenient in regards who possesses the emeralds. Seeing how Sonic used them to save his island, I believe Knuckles thought Sonic a capable guardian of his own. Maybe he became a little lax in guarding the Master Emerald, as well, until Knuckles' version of S3&K takes place. That would also mean the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic 2 ended up being the emeralds Knuckles' used during that time.

 

There's only 7 Chaos Emeralds. Your friend is incorrect.

Oh well. I've been contradicted by the President of the United States. Everybody go home. Conversation over.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Sholz

[Diogenes]

Because how could Sonic fly to Angel Island as Super Sonic if the Chaos Emeralds on Floating Island were knocked off by the Death Egg just a few days ago?  I guess if Tails used his Jewel Reader that might be possible, but what the good endings from Sonic 1 and Sonic 2?

Like I said, I can't explain the deal with Angel Island's emeralds. Unless you're going to posit multiple sets of emeralds that have just straight up disappeared since S3&K, or presume that the emeralds on Angel Island vanished for unknown reasons before Sonic 1 and Knuckles was unconscious for (at the very least) several days, it's a straight up plothole.

[JezMM]

Just to respond to one particularly silly arguement:

 

"When they say "the seven chaos emeralds" they refer to the set in that game".

 

What.  As far as the characters are concerned they are not in a game.  No-one would refer to them as a singular set.  They would say something like "we need to find a set of chaos emeralds!"

 

 

Also the obvious fact of if it was common knowledge that there were more than 7 emeralds, why on earth would Eggman continually settle for just one set to power his latest creations when he could just get a ton of smaller creations and power them all with individual emeralds?

[Scar]

If Sonic and Co were referring to 1 set of 7, out of a many possible sets, they would probably say;

 

"We need to find 7 Chaos Emeralds"

 

instead of

 

"We need to find the 7 Chaos Emeralds".

 

Use of the word "the" significantly changes the implication of that phrase, and it doesn't take a literary genius to figure out why. Say that, and you'll likely terminate any argument regarding this particular issue.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Scar

[Barack Obama]

If Sonic and Co were referring to 1 set of 7, out of a many possible sets, they would probably say;

 

 

instead of

 

 

Use of the word "the" significantly changes the implication of that phrase, and it doesn't take a literary genius to figure out why. Say that, and you'll likely terminate any argument regarding this particular issue.

This individual utters the truth from his lips. There is really no reason for this topic to exist unless it becomes a general topic about the Chaos Emeralds.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Barack Obama

[Jolt_TH]

Like I said, I can't explain the deal with Angel Island's emeralds. Unless you're going to posit multiple sets of emeralds that have just straight up disappeared since S3&K, or presume that the emeralds on Angel Island vanished for unknown reasons before Sonic 1 and Knuckles was unconscious for (at the very least) several days, it's a straight up plothole.

Maybe the master emerald keeps the emeralds stable and without it they teleport themselves to the chaos dimension or whatever?

That would explain why they were in the special stages in sonic 1 &' 2, in sonic 3, knuckles is the guardian so maybe he sent them to the aforementioned dimension to keep them safe while dealing with Sonic. S3&K in hidden palace there are spaces for the emeralds but knuckles 1) doesn't seem to care 2) if they were his emeralds he stole why didn't he put them back? Makes more sense he sent them to the other dimension to me.

Also if there were two sets of emeralds

1) why can you not go super after starting to collect the super emeralds

2) hen you go to hidden palace (after going to mushroom hill) the place is empty and the emerald altars only fill up THE NUMBER OF EMERALDS YOU HAD again suggesting that the super emeralds are just suped up chaos emeralds.

I dunno but to me it just seems blatantly obvious that there are only 7 emeralds, besides the super emeralds and hyper sonic being declared non-canon

Edited February 11, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[Sholz]

Also if there were two sets of emeralds

1) why can you not go super after starting to collect the super emeralds

2) hen you go to hidden palace (after going to mushroom hill) the place is empty and the emerald altars only fill up THE NUMBER OF EMERALDS YOU HAD again suggesting that the super emeralds are just suped up chaos emeralds.

I dunno but to me it just seems blatantly obvious that there are only 7 emeralds, besides the super emeralds and hyper sonic being declared non-canon

I think you answered you're first point with your second point.   Yes, I too believe that the Super Emeralds are the Chaos Emeralds you collected in Sonic 3's part of the game, which is why you can't go super in the S&K part. I'm thinking more about the emerald's relation between games. For example, in Sonic '06, Princess Elise is carrying a blue Chaos Emerald she's had since she was a child. Lots of other Sonic games have taken place before the events of '06.

 

 

Also when was Hyper Sonic declared non-canon? That's one of my favorite aspects of S3&K, a form beyond Super.

 

 

Use of the word "the" significantly changes the implication of that phrase, and it doesn't take a literary genius to figure out why. Say that, and you'll likely terminate any argument regarding this particular issue.

I'm not so sure. You can refer to a lot of things in that way. It doesn't necessarily mean they're the only things of that kind in the world (i.e. He washed the plates. She saw the ghosts. They defeated the robots). Usually when the seven Chaos Emeralds are referred to, it's because they've already been observed in that game. Or, another theory, perhaps some of the characters don't know there are more than seven at that time, though that's a little harder to argue.

 

 

Also the obvious fact of if it was common knowledge that there were more than 7 emeralds, why on earth would Eggman continually settle for just one set to power his latest creations when he could just get a ton of smaller creations and power them all with individual emeralds?

This I'm not sure about. Though there seems to be something special about the number of emeralds in use. Sonic can't go Super with only six. Knuckles can't go Super with just one emerald (Master or no, though Robotnik's metal Sonic could use if for a brief time).

My theory is that seven emeralds is enough to unlock a sort of infinite energy or something very close to it. Each emerald could exponentiate the power they output, until you reach the seventh, where the peak of that growth reaches into infinity. There probably wouldn't be a need for any more.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Sholz

[Chaos Controller]

I'm loving this. You used my past argument about Sonic '06 to augment your own. Well played, Sholz. Well played, indeed.

You're slowly making me into a true believer.

[Spin Attaxx]

I think you answered you're first point with your second point.   Yes, I too believe that the Super Emeralds are the Chaos Emeralds you collected in Sonic 3's part of the game, which is why you can't go super in the S&K part. I'm thinking more about the emerald's relation between games. For example, in Sonic '06, Princess Elise is carrying a blue Chaos Emerald she's had since she was a child. Lots of other Sonic games have taken place before the events of '06.

 

There's a reason why Elise has the emerald that would prevent Sonic 1 - Shadow from happening: inhumanly awful writing.

 

 

Also when was Hyper Sonic declared non-canon? That's one of my favorite aspects of S3&K, a form beyond Super.

 

Since he and the Super Emeralds stopped appearing and when Iizuka officialy said Super Tails was a "one-time thing" - implying he and everything related to the Super Emeralds were non-canon.

 

 

This I'm not sure about. Though there seems to be something special about the number of emeralds in use. Sonic can't go Super with only six. Knuckles can't go Super with just one emerald (Master or no, though Robotnik's metal Sonic could use if for a brief time).

 

Knuckles canonically can't go super with even 7 emeralds - the closest he can get is that bubble in Heroes. And it's MECHA Sonic who could use the emerald.

 

It seems to me like your logic is "I believe in anything, even if there's little or no proof for it, but it's 100% right simply because it can't be disproven".

Edited February 11, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[Scar]

 

 

Also when was Hyper Sonic declared non-canon? That's one of my favorite aspects of S3&K, a form beyond Super.

 

 

 

Since they have never been seen or mentioned since S3K......?

 

I'm not so sure. You can refer to a lot of things in that way. It doesn't necessarily mean they're the only things of that kind in the world (i.e. He washed the plates. She saw the ghosts. They defeated the robots). Usually when the seven Chaos Emeralds are referred to, it's because they've already been observed in that game. Or, another theory, perhaps some of the characters don't know there are more than seven at that time, though that's a little harder to argue.

 

 

I'm going to horribly abuse Schrodinger's principle here:

1 set of 7 emeralds and more than 1 set of 7 emeralds can exist at the same time, until one of the two options is observed. In pretty much all of the main series (canon) games thus far, only 1 set of 7 emeralds has ever been observed or referred to by the characters, it must therefore follow that there is only 1 set of 7 emeralds.

 

Yes, that is a hollow argument that can quite easily (and rightfully so) be picked apart, but is no less hollow than the argument "You can't prove that more than 1 set don't exist". Seeing as people want to use this horribly broken means of arguing a point, I don't see why I can't use a similarly ridiculous argument.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Scar

[Jolt_TH]

Even if princess Elise had the emerald as a "lucky charm" since the events never occurred, silver never gave it to her, who gave it to silver, therefore the emerald cannot be there, so it MUST be somewhere else. It's simple logic, if it isn't within the infinite loop it's elsewhere

The fact that the events didn't happen pretty much nullify 06 anyway

[Chaos Controller]

There's a reason why Elise has the emerald that would prevent Sonic 1 - Shadow from happening: inhumanly awful writing.

Or perhaps since none of the events of the game actually took place, Silver giving the blue emerald to Elise in the past never happened either...

It seems to me like your logic is "I believe in anything, even if there's little or no proof for it, but it's 100% right simply because it can't be disproven".

The guy comes up with a theory that has thought put into it and isn't completely batshit crazy, and suddenly he "believes in anything"...?

I may disagree with his theory as well, but come on. That's a little uncalled for, methinks.

Since they have never been seen or mentioned since S3K....?

Well, in his defense, the 7 Koopa Kids in the Super Mario series were absent for over 15 years, before they made their reappearance. Saying "Well, it hasn't been around since this game, so it's now non-canon" isn't very fair.

I'd like to think that Hyper Sonic hasn't resurfaced because there hasn't really been a need for him to. In most of the recent games, the Emeralds are more often plot elements than actual "side-quest" collectibles. Even in the recent games that have implemented having to collect them via Special Stages, the games aren't anywhere near as long as S3&K, making the concept of Super-Charging the emeralds completely redundant and unnecessary.

Perhaps Super-Charging the emeralds is a feat that can only be accomplished on Angel Island?

Edited February 11, 2013 by Chaos Controller

[Spin Attaxx]

Well, in his defense, the 7 Koopa Kids in the Super Mario series were absent for over 15 years, before they made their reappearance. Saying "Well, it hasn't been around since this game, so it's now non-canon" isn't very fair.

 

There's a difference between being characters and being collectables whose only real purpose is to give the Special Stages from one game locked onto another meaning.

[Chaos Controller]

^ I addressed that in the remainder of the post that followed that statement.

[Spin Attaxx]

If the Chaos Emeralds already have infinite energy, then what would be the point of super charging them? Hyper Sonic would make Super Sonic seem redundant and un-needed.

 

And if the Super Emeralds were canon, then why don't they just leave them with Knuckles on Angel Island so Sonic could turn into Hyper Sonic pretty much whenever?

Edited February 11, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[Chaos Controller]

If the Chaos Emeralds already have infinite energy, then what would be the point of super charging them? Hyper Sonic would make Super Sonic seem redundant and un-needed.

If Knuckles can punch the Chaos Emeralds out of Super Sonic - an entity that has the power of the Emeralds flowing through him - then, it stands to reason that the power of the Chaos Emeralds is, in fact, not infinite.

And if the Super Emeralds were canon, then why don't they just leave them with Knuckles on Angel Island so Sonic could turn into Hyper Sonic pretty much whenever?

In that case, why don't they just leave the Chaos Emeralds with Knuckles on Angel Island, so that Sonic can become Super Sonic whenever he wants?

Edited February 11, 2013 by Chaos Controller

[Spin Attaxx]

If Knuckles can punch the Chaos Emeralds out of Super Sonic - an entity that has the power of the Emeralds flowing through him - then, it stands to reason that the power of the Chaos Emeralds is, in fact, not infinite.

The dude lives next to the glorified on/off switch for the things - of course he'd be able to punch them out of Super Sonic.

 

In that case, why don't they just leave the Chaos Emeralds with Knuckles on Angel Island, so that Sonic can become Super Sonic whenever he wants?

You're saying that Hyper Sonic is canon - why would Sonic wish to go for a weaker form when he can turn into a much more powerful form? And you're the one saying that Angel Island super charges the emeralds.

[Your Vest Friend]

 

Nah, there's only 4, and they're all green.

 

Silly George, you're clearly thinking of the Chaos Emerald shards. 

 

 

Now they're all green, regardless of the colour of the Chaos Emerald they came from. 

[Rally the Cheetah]

If Knuckles can punch the Chaos Emeralds out of Super Sonic - an entity that has the power of the Emeralds flowing through him - then, it stands to reason that the power of the Chaos Emeralds is, in fact, not infinite.

 

The power isn't infinite if Unleashed is cannon which I don't see why it wouldn't be.

Also I personally don't think one can truly argue one way or the other with this, even with cannon games. There are just too many plot holes that form if you do. To make this an easier to read I'll form a list.

1) The special stages. Okay so in several of the games this is how you get Emeralds, yes? But what are the special stages exactly? Alternate worlds? Or maybe a space in between dimensions? Who knows. Anyhow, you get Emeralds there yes?  Buuuuuut what about the Emeralds you see in the Adventure games and the Shadow game that are just hanging around in the real world? How did those get there? 

2) Characters like Shadow and Metal Sonic. Shadow carries around the Green Emerald on his person. This we know. But if he's always carrying it then how does Sonic end up with it? Also in Rivals 2 Metal Sonic revealed he had the Green Emerald as an energy source. Ummm what? Also Shadow was with him when this was discovered and was like "Oh that's where it went." Yeah... What  ? 

3) Super Sonic. So Sonic collects the Emeralds in the majority of his games. So why is it he never seems to have them at the start of his next adventure? Well, some can say "it's because they separate like the dragons balls from him after he turns back from being Super." Do they? Perhaps my memories rusty but the only game I saw where they truly separated from him after he turned back was SSBB, and that certainly isn't cannon. Also it that were the case then you'd only be able to turn Super Sonic ONCE after collecting all the Emeralds in every game. So all those levels you play as Super Sonic, yeah, not possible. 

So what does this all mean? My theory: perhaps the emeralds are little more than receptacles to hold massive amounts of energy. That's why you had to recharge them in Unleashed, they just ran out. It's also explains how Tails made a copy of the yellow one. It would also explain why Shadow wouldn't have his in Rivals and Metal Sonic had it. It simply ran out of energy so Shadow likely discarded it. Or maybe it just got destroyed. Who knows. It also would explain why Sonic won't just keep them on his person at all times, they'll eventually run out of energy and become useless. I figure Chaos Emeralds are energized by being in the special stage zone or via temples. So maybe there could be more than seven if one just kept going to the stage over an over. Why hasn't Eggman done this? Maybe he can't, only Sonic and anthro creatures have been seen in the stages. Also it'd be a pain for the Eggman to have to chase after the Emerald every time if he could enter. As for sending a machine to do it, somehow I doubt that'd be possible. If the stage is indeed energizing the Emerald then Metal Sonic or some other machine would likely get fried or something. That, or maybe Eggman's just lazy. One could ask why he's not attacking Knuckles every day of the week for the stronger Master Emerald  . Finally if if this all true then it would explain how the Emeralds could end up stored in safes in the real world. Sonic or some other character likely took them out of the special stage and then they became accessible to that dimension. 

'Course this is all just a theory, there's nothing solid to back it up. 

Edit: Strike the bit about the Robots not being able to enter special stages. I recall one in Advance 2. Still it was an enemy NPC and appeared to be stuck in the zone. Maybe robots can enter but not leave? Who knows.  

Edited February 11, 2013 by Rally the Cheetah

[Chaos Controller]

^ Wow... I really like your thinking, Rally!

[Sholz]

Finally if if this all true then it would explain how the Emeralds could end up stored in safes in the real world. Sonic or some other character likely took them out of the special stage and then they became accessible to that dimension. 

'Course this is all just a theory, there's nothing solid to back it up.

 

I like it. I always figured the emeralds would create special zones around if they were left alone long enough. Yours explains why they would do that and also why they might keep disappearing after every game.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Sholz