The North Korea Thread: Threats, Propaganda and a brewing Holocaust

[Autosaver]

 

US vs North Korea

[Danj86]

The US media gets ratings/sales/money from sensationalizing these sorts of things. There's no real danger, but there is money to be made in fearmongering.

 

From what I've seen, that seems to be the same in the UK. I've always felt like the media are using a type of terrorism to sell there crap. It makes me sick.

 

I'm tired of all this North Korea crap. Why do some people feel the need to be an arse? Humans have been doing this since forever, and I always thought we where supposed to learn from history, not repeat it.

It's also hard to be threatened by Kim-thingy when he looks the way he does. I don't usually do fat jokes because I am one, but I though fat people was supposed to be jolly.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Kaesong brings over $2bn into the NK economy annually. I mentioned it being open earlier, and also spoke of that being a good sign. Its closure honestly doesn't bode well.

So in other words, North Korea just shot themselves in the foot again by shutting down one of their major source of income?

 

At this point, I'm not even sure about worrying about the North being a threat anymore. They won't even be able to afford much of the resources that they would need to wage a war, and it'll be over pretty damn quick.

[Stacy]

What I am sick of all the contradictions in articles and the media such as "North Korea isn't a threat, lacks missile capability  to them posting comments from Chuck Hagel who has said the exact opposite.

 

I know they trying not to scare people but its frustrating to know what is exactly going on. 

 

If I am honest last nights report did worry me personally for the first time. I think this is the closest my/our generation has to Cold War like tensions. 

 

This probably the most tense situation the world has been in for a while.

[Tani Coyote]

If the wider world takes NK seriously and doesn't call its bluff, suddenly it has a new tool in its arsenal to get the west off its back. If the west calls their bluff and they're not bluffing, we suddenly have a much more serious situation brewing. If the west calls their bluff and they are bluffing, the regime may feel forced into a corner by circumstances and initiate hostilities just to retain credibility. Maybe.

 

Oh brinkmanship. Always an enjoyable game of trying to decide how far to push.

 

Let us see. In the Cuban missile crisis, we cut a secret deal with the Soviets to pull back our missiles from Turkey; it was painted as a victory for the United States when in reality we both reached a compromise (never mind this means we were the aggressors in Cuba, not the Soviets, but I digress). Surely we can reach some sort of agreement with North Korea that will allow us both to claim victory?

 

The main problem is they're so deadset on nuclear weapons and don't seem willing to compromise on the subject at all. We could negotiate with the Soviets, since we were both nuclear armed and just agreed it was best we didn't have missiles in eachother's backyards. With the North the situation is very different as the situation is clearly lopsided and there is no real room for compromise; the North either has missiles or it doesn't.

 

If they toned down their belligerency, their having missiles wouldn't be such an issue. But they haven't done that. And despite their desire for deterrence, they refuse to just let the fact Russia and China want to counter US influence on the peninsula be satisfactory.

 

Really we're dealing with a very stubborn nation, and that's why this is going to be difficult.

 

Why do some people feel the need to be an arse? Humans have been doing this since forever, and I always thought we where supposed to learn from history, not repeat it.

 

As a species human beings are shortsighted. We can barely look ten years into the future, much less two thousand into the past.

 

Compounding this is the fact both democracy and autocracy likewise suffer from the crap of human nature. An autocracy is prone to corruption and power abuse due to shortsighted leaders, and a democracy is likewise prone to the shortsightedness of the masses as government is run on slogans, not viable ideas.

 

In North Korea's case, it's also the fact the regime have the mentality of a murderer and rapist; they love that sense of control and will do anything to keep it. There's no reason for a government that wants power to be so blatantly abusive; China is an excellent example of a powerful, dictatorial government that can do whatever it wants but overall isn't that ruthless or bloodthirsty. The DPRK's regime is just blatant savage with how they view their people.

[Patticus]

So in other words, North Korea just shot themselves in the foot again by shutting down one of their major source of income?

The regime would only close it down if it genuinely saw a full-scale resumption the Korean War as a likely prospect. I think. I mean, like all the analysts have been saying, its remaining open has been an important indication that NK wasn't truly serious about going to war. Close it down and at best its intentions become that much less predictable, and at worst... well you can imagine.

[Stacy]

http://rt.com/news/anonymous-north-korea-hacking-327/

 

While this can be seen as slightly amusing. It also scary that anyone could hack them and post false information and rhetoric intensifying an already tense situation, plus North Korea could confuse it for an attack. 

The regime would only close it down if it genuinely saw a full-scale resumption the Korean War as a likely prospect. I think. I mean, like all the analysts have been saying, its remaining open has been an important indication that NK wasn't truly serious about going to war. Close it down and at best its intentions become that much less predictable, and at worst... well you can imagine.

 

Its only open to the North Koreans but I think it is still closed off to the South Koreans.

[DGam'r]

This is pretty scary once you think about it. Even if the missile doesn't hit the U.S. it could hit another place and BAM! Domino effect of nukes will happen. 

 

I just hope it doesn't happen...I just want somewhat World Peace sheesh 

[Kareemadeem]

North Korea Twitter, Flickr accounts hacked by Anonymous

Hacking group Anonymous continued its assault on one of North Korea's propaganda websites by taking over the site's Twitter and Flickr accounts, two days after saying it obtained 15,000 user records from the site.

The state-run website,Uriminzokkiri.com, could not be accessed early Thursday, and it's unclear whether the North Korean government took down the site or whether it was unavailable because of a denial-of-service attack by Anonymous or another group.

As well as putting its own stamp on the Twitter and Flickr sites, the group added a illustration showing North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, with a pig nose and ears, as "wanted." The Flickr page was restored to its original content, but here is a cached photo of what the top of Uriminzokkiri's page looked like:

Anonymous

"The hack and the poster will likely be deeply embarrassing for the people running Uriminzokkiri and could land them in serious trouble with the authorities in Pyongyang," wrote Martyn Williams of North Korea Tech, which covers information technology in North Korea.

He noted that in early 2011, Uriminzokkiri's Twitter channel was hacked and was "used to send out messages disparaging then-leader Kim Jong Il. It also carried a link to a YouTube that showed Kim Jong Un driving a sports car filled with birthday gifts while mowing down pedestrians."

While those outside North Korea will be able to see the recent handiwork, the people of North Korea won't. Internet access to North Korea's 24 million people is extremely limited, mainly to government and military officials.

— Via KotakuAnonymous

[Johnny Boy]

Anonymous has gotten involved? Someone pass the popcorn.

[Tani Coyote]

I'm with the above. Anonymous is controversial and all, but we can't exactly deny that this was definitely a just move on their part.

 

If North Korea doesn't understand this isn't the US government's fault, maybe they shouldn't be in power at all. Naturally they're going to trump this on state news as some huge Western conspiracy, but I think in their minds the brass know otherwise. The joys of being in control of information is you can live in two realities - one of light and one of darkness.

 

Likewise, the North's government surely know they're bound to lose if they fire the first shot. Sure Korea's more intense than ever with its rhetoric, but let's be honest; Jong Un isn't his father or grandfather in the amount of support he can muster. This is just to make him look strong as a leader. Propaganda's good and all, but eventually there comes a point even the horribly brainwashed can smell the cow farm from a mile away.

[Stacy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/north-korea-moves-second-missile-east-coast-071026503.html

 

The Chess game continues North Korea has moved another missile to the east coast and had load them onto launch pads.

[Tani Coyote]

In good news it sounds like we're making full use of surveillance technology to keep the missiles in check. Even if Korea launched them across the Pacific (and they didn't blow up a hundred feet off the launch pad), I think it's safe to say we'll have countermeasures ready. We're not talking a World War III-style nuclear launch; two missiles is nothing for even the rudimentary interception technology.

 

What would be more worrying would be them shelling the South, something we have no real countermeasure against. Though that's preferable to any attempt at an actual attack.

 

Really we just need to illustrate the complete and utter ineffectiveness of whatever peashooter nuclear warhead they can muster, so we can settle the issue.

 

Honestly we should just be glad South Korea's not Israel, or the entire peninsula would be at war now as a result of South Korea launching massive airstrikes on all the launch facilities.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Conando]

In the article, military analysts aren't even sure they could even attach a small warhead to said missiles. So...yeah. I suppose the only really worry is the escalation in the area if it happens. We don't really need another War, so I hope it doesn't escalate.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Wreck-It Ralph

[Tani Coyote]

In the article, military analysts aren't even sure they could even attach a small warhead to said missiles. So...yeah. I suppose the only really worry is the escalation in the area if it happens. We don't really need another War, so I hope it doesn't escalate.

 

Hence I'm of the opinion we should definitely not factor in the warheads at all other than a token concern.

 

What is of concern is their artillery and massive army, which would be a very real threat to the South. American and Japanese lives are pretty safe, but Korean lives most definitely are not. Even if American and allied forces eventually kicked the North out, with how cruel the regime is I could see them easily killing thousands upon thousands of people in war crimes in addition to any casualties as part of a military assault.

 

Fortunately this can all be chalked up to posturing; Jong Un's in a weaker position than his two predecessors so naturally has to do something more drastic. He'll be hailed as someone who stood up to the West and all its evils, and call it a day. Before one questions this approach, it has worked in countries that are far more democratic such as Russia and Venezuela. A more heavy handed government is easily justified if you can make the people feel that they need it for protection (see the debate on security versus individual liberties).

[Stacy]

In good news it sounds like we're making full use of surveillance technology to keep the missiles in check. Even if Korea launched them across the Pacific (and they didn't blow up a hundred feet off the launch pad), I think it's safe to say we'll have countermeasures ready. We're not talking a World War III-style nuclear launch; two missiles is nothing for even the rudimentary interception technology.

 

What would be more worrying would be them shelling the South, something we have no real countermeasure against. Though that's preferable to any attempt at an actual attack.

 

Really we just need to illustrate the complete and utter ineffectiveness of whatever peashooter nuclear warhead they can muster, so we can settle the issue.

 

Honestly we should just be glad South Korea's not Israel, or the entire peninsula would be at war now as a result of South Korea launching massive airstrikes on all the launch facilities.

 

Funny thing is South Korea probably would be at war if US didn't keep them in line.

 

We also need to illustrate that muscle on more muscle doesn't work as a deterrent either it didn't work in the Cold War between the Soviet Union and the US and it won't work now. If both sides want to lower tensions they need negotiate with each other come to a compromise. 

 

What is interesting is North Korea is focused on attacking the US not South Korea or Japan. Obama's strangulation policy doesn't seem to be working and the policy of ignoring the North prior to the escalation doesn't help matters either.

 

Another factor is the US has been slowly beefing up its military presence in Asia for a while now after pulling out of Iraq. While this reassures the US allies it doesn't look to countries that distrust the US particularly North Korea.  

 

About the Counter-measures I really hope the US isn't relaying on them and continues its equally gun-ho attitude because say if North Korea launched a missile and the counter-measure failed and hits its intended target that would make the US look pretty damn stupid.

 

EDIT:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/05/us-korea-north-russia-idUSBRE9340B020130405

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPhffFdO-OU

 

Seriously that is not a good sign.

Edited April 5, 2013 by BW199148

[Tani Coyote]

We also need to illustrate that muscle on more muscle doesn't work as a deterrent either it didn't work in the Cold War between the Soviet Union and the US and it won't work now. If both sides want to lower tensions they need negotiate with each other come to a compromise. 

 

Compromise is impossible if it's an issue that can't really be compromised on. North Korea's decided nuclear weapons are a must, we've decided they are not. There's no middle ground here, unlike say, if Korea had nuclear weapons and we were okay with them having a certain number, similar to how there have been arms treaties in the past.

 

For there to be compromise, the United States and the other concerned parties must agree to North Korea being a member of the nuclear club, or North Korea has to go the way of South Africa and realise nuclear weapons are overrated.

 

What is interesting is North Korea is focused on attacking the US not South Korea or Japan. Obama's strangulation policy doesn't seem to be working and the policy of ignoring the North prior to the escalation doesn't help matters either.

 

Well yes. It's not the South they're afraid of; it's the United States. They could probably take the South on well enough with human wave tactics, but the United States' air and naval power would quickly erase their advantage. Hence, they want to try and intimidate us.

 

The idea of such a vile regime having nuclear weapons doesn't sit with us well, and that is why we are attempting to strangle them in the first place. If they were a decent country, we'd probably be perfectly fine with it. As it stands though, we are not receptive at all to the idea.

 

Another factor is the US has been slowly beefing up its military presence in Asia for a while now after pulling out of Iraq. While this reassures the US allies it doesn't look to countries that distrust the US particularly North Korea.

 

Maybe if they weren't barking constantly, South Korea wouldn't feel the need to call the police and report a disturbance.

 

North Korea can cry provocation all it wants, we're just establishing that if they decide to attack the South, we're ready to rock and roll. Ball's in their court.

 

About the Counter-measures I really hope the US isn't relaying on them and continues its equally gun-ho attitude because say if North Korea launched a missile and the counter-measure failed and hits its intended target that would make the US look pretty damn stupid.

 

Obama's fairly levelheaded despite his domestic failures, so I suspect he has plenty on the table besides just relying on countermeasures. As it stands though, we're just at an impasse over whether they have the right to nuclear weapons; it's an issue that can't be compromised on, comparable to if one person believes in capital punishment and the other doesn't. There can be no compromise: it has to be one way or the other.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/05/us-korea-north-russia-idUSBRE9340B020130405

 

Really this shows the problems of our limited information. We don't know if the regime's actually insane or just really good at acting. It is a safe guess they are merely acting, however, and this is but one of many in a long line of postures they're taking.

 

The basic idea behind nuclear weapon usage is you will only use them if you are fired on first or feel you have nothing to lose. I think we've established that we have no desire to conquer North Korea though, and this is probably what should be stressed most: we merely do not want nuclear weapons on the peninsula, not the destruction of North Korea (wishful thinking though). If that's not acceptable, they should at least be willing to accept a nuclear-armed South Korea.

 

Now, god help us if they are actually crazy.

[Stacy]

The basic idea behind nuclear weapon usage is you will only use them if you are fired on first or feel you have nothing to lose. I think we've established that we have no desire to conquer North Korea though, and this is probably what should be stressed most: we merely do not want nuclear weapons on the peninsula, not the destruction of North Korea (wishful thinking though). If that's not acceptable, they should at least be willing to accept a nuclear-armed South Korea.

 

Now, god help us if they are actually crazy.

 

That would never happen because the US would never allow South Korea to have Nuclear weapons.

 

The US would preferably prefer that they are the only ones to have Nuclear Arms. They only allowed Britain and France to have Nuclear deterrents because the Russian's obtain the ability to build them (thanks to the Scientists who knew the dangers of a Nuclear Monopoly). Still to this day the US wins the Nuclear Monopoly having more nuclear weapons than anybody else gives them a lot of power over other countries.

 

I personally feel that both sides are to blame for this mess. You have an inexperienced unpredictable Dictator pushed into a corner were there are few positive outcomes and then you have the US whose Diplomacy is as subtle as a brick thrown at a Glass house.  

 

Then there is China who could go either way.

[Tani Coyote]

That would never happen because the US would never allow South Korea to have Nuclear weapons.

 

The US would preferably prefer that they are the only ones to have Nuclear Arms.

 

Well yeah. Anybody in a position of power would prefer they be able to monopolise it.

 

Regardless, while we'd object to South Korea having nuclear weapons, what can we do in all honesty? We can't just tear up our alliance. We lack a divine ability to smite them for not heeding our requests. We're not going to just abandon them when they've got a clear threat on their border. We can't control them anymore than we can control Israel at the end of the day.

 

Still to this day the US wins the Nuclear Monopoly having more nuclear weapons than anybody else gives them a lot of power over other countries.

 

Russia has a larger stockpile as I remember. Though as I remember quite a few of those are hard to account for or aren't very secure, so I guess we win on that front.

 

Anywho the importance of nuclear weapons is kind of overstated barring their use for deterrence; using them offensively is a very bad idea in this day and age. There's a reason they haven't been used since the bombings of Japan. American influence is not due to its nuclear weapons; it is due to the country's economic, cultural and military might.

 

Nuclear weapons' sole purpose is a last resort if someone pushes you too hard, which is why an invasion of North Korea is something we should specifically state we're not interested in.

 

I personally feel that both sides are to blame for this mess. You have an inexperienced unpredictable Dictator pushed into a corner were there are few positive outcomes and then you have the US whose Diplomacy is as subtle as a brick thrown at a Glass house. 

 

There are plenty of countries yelling at us for our use of capital punishment, weaker environmental and labor regulations, lack of UHC, and our willingness to use armed force against other nations, so we are not the only ones who lack subtle diplomacy in this world. The key difference is the United States is very good at backing up its words with force. Which is a good reputation to have, since it means North Korea has incentive to play ball.

 

North Korea, on the other hand, has a reputation of being full of hot air, which is why I presume they're acting so crazy right now. They want us to assume they're serious. But no rational leader would declare war on the United States or its allies in the current situation.

 

Question is if the leaders there are rational...

[Stacy]

Question is if the leaders there are rational...

 

Speaking of which: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/north-korea-moves-missiles-south-korean-markets-roiled-085320341--business.html

 

The North Korean government as now ask all of the foreign embassies to consider evacuating its staff as their safety can not be guaranteed from April 10th. 

 

Also why people keep saying the North are saying they are going to do a surprise attack? Its hardly a surprise when you have already threaten the people you want to attack. I can't see where people are getting this from if I wanted to launch a surprise attack they would of just done it by now.

Edited April 5, 2013 by BW199148

[Patticus]

We need to send some Panto Horse costumes to help our embassy staff escape, should things go to hell in a hand basket. They can pretend to be some emaciated horses to avoid drawing attention.

 

Since there haven't been any threatening military build-ups near the border, or other movements beyond that one missile, and since the atmosphere in Pyongyang is pretty calm, I'm still thinking that this is still probably just a storm in a teacup, manufactured purely to secure Kim Jong-un's place at the top of NK's military hierarchy.

 

Also, BW199148: Please improve your grammar. Your posts can be quite confusing.

[Stacy]

We need to send some Panto Horse costumes to help our embassy staff escape, should things go to hell in a hand basket. They can pretend to be some emaciated horses to avoid drawing attention.

 

Since there haven't been any threatening military build-ups near the border, or other movements beyond that one missile, and since the atmosphere in Pyongyang is pretty calm, I'm still thinking that this is still probably just a storm in a teacup, manufactured purely to secure Kim Jong-un's place at the top of NK's military hierarchy.

 

Also, BW199148: Please improve your grammar. Your posts can be quite confusing.

 

Sorry I fixed it up a bit a few words where missing its hard when you have Dyspraxia/Dyslexia. 

[Patticus]

Well, now I feel like a complete arse. Sorry! :< Woe betide you if that's just an excuse, though... moo-a-hahaha

The most I feel that's going to come from all this is some light shelling of another disputed island, followed by a joint US-SK response destroying a lot of NK military hardware. NK mobilizes its armed forces in response (properly this time), the US wipes out their communications infrastructure, China weighs in by deploying troops along the border to prevent refugees from entering, NK sues for peace. American right-wing politicians then call for elimination of NK's military junta, because they <3 war.

[Stacy]

Well, now I feel like a complete arse. Sorry! :< Woe betide you if that's just an excuse, though... moo-a-hahaha

The most I feel that's going to come from all this is some light shelling of another disputed island, followed by a joint US-SK response destroying a lot of NK military hardware. NK mobilizes its armed forces in response (properly this time), the US wipes out their communications infrastructure, China weighs in by deploying troops along the border to prevent refugees from entering, NK sues for peace. American right-wing politicians then call for elimination of NK's military junta, because they <3 war.

 

No Pat it is okay. I should of explained this ages ago, it annoys me too. Due to my poor coordination words get mixed up and jumbled up or I miss them out completely not being able to notice that I am doing that is my post usually have multiple edits. Sometimes it can take forever to do a post because I miss out things and try to correct things. I do try to make my posts as presentable as I can though.

 

Anyway strangely it is not Nuclear War that scares me but a Conventional War.

 

If the North does even a small artillery strike it would be more than even though for the South to retaliate where things could spiral out of control requiring fast US and possibly NATO intervention.

 

If the North pulls a Stalin were they just throws bodies at the South and the North has no concern for Human Losses then they know that the South, US and NATO do. If the North is just as deceptive as it was in the last war it could make things a lot more difficult.

 

While yes North Korea is not as powerful as the US, China and Russia they are still more capable than Saddam was in the Iraq War whose Army was still reeling from the Gulf War. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm actually more concerned about a nuclear war than a conventional one. With their artillery (if it works) and manpower, I can only see them trying a zerg rush to the south and I don't even think it would be that successful.

 

I also want to point out that unlike North Korea, Iraq actually had access to resources it could use, mainly oil due to its invasion of Kuwait. North Korea really lacks that advantage, which is ironic based on what I'm hearing about the resources in their land: it's apparently rich in coal, among others, but they're not making good use of it from what I hear.

Edited April 5, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc