The North Korea Thread: Threats, Propaganda and a brewing Holocaust

[DGam'r]

One article says that various experts (they don't give examples) saying that North Korea isn't much of threat and lacks a Nuclear capability then has a quote from Secretary Of Defence Chuck Hagel saying that they are threat and have a nuclear capability.

 

So who is right? 

Oh ok, I see where you're going with this. 

[Stacy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-missile-test-delayed-over-north-korea-row-001454094.html

 

The US delays test launch of a ICBM.

 

Common sense that they have done this and gives the US the ability to encourage the North not to launch and test their missiles. Only problem is the North Korea can easily use this as a victory to bolster Kim Jong-un's leadership and what if that is not enough and aggression continues and war becomes the only option?

 

For all know Kim Jong-un might go ahead and test their missiles anyway.

 

 

"I'll launch them anyway, bitches!". 

Edited April 7, 2013 by BW199148

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

For a second, I read that as "US does a test launch of an ICBM", and was about to go "WTF?! That's not what we should be doing!"

 

Then I reread it and saw "delay" and was like, "Oh, nevermind then."

[Stacy]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-05/us-secretly-deploys-b-1-strategic-bombers-e-6-doomsday-planes-near-north-korea

 

Apparently the US has also sent B-1 Strategic Bombers and a E-6 "Doomsday" plane to Guam. Difference is this was done secretly and has leaked to the media.

Edited April 8, 2013 by BW199148

[Stacy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/signs-north-korea-preparing-nuclear-test-030411439.html

 

South Korean Minister Ryoo-Kilhl-Jae had told South Korean parliament there were signs and reports of increased activity at the North Korean atomic test site Punggye-ri and said that they might be preparing for a test only for him to quickly dismiss what he had just said and then claimed that they had seen no new activity at North Korean's atomic test site.

 

 

So in other words North Korea might or might be preparing a underground nuclear test. The sadist part there is not much we can do about it the North is already sanctioned up its arsehole and a precision pre-emptive strike would just kick off a wider conflict. 

 

Seeing as the US has announced a "counter-provocation" plan where if the North Korea launch a artillery strike then the US and South Korea would launch a artillery strike in response. Only problem with this plan it won't stop provocations only led to rapid escalation.

 

Either way I wouldn't rule out a possible missile or a nuclear test from North Korea. 

 

The South Korean and the US government basically wants us to sing the "Just Don't Look" song off the Simpsons.

 

The BBC is also reporting that North Korea is suspending all of its operations at the Kaesong Industrial Complex.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They really can't make up their minds, can they?

 

Can they at the very least stick to the cautious path and see whether the North will actually launch an artillery strike at the South for simply minding their own business in their military drills?

 

Considering how they don't even put enough fuel in their jets, I'd be surprised if they got the fuel to launch a nuclear missile at the South...I'd be even more surprised if it actual achieved re-entry. I'd be horrified if it actually hit a population in the South, but that would be enough fuel to the fire to bring the North down!

[Stacy]

Considering how they don't even put enough fuel in their jets, I'd be surprised if they got the fuel to launch a nuclear missile at the South...I'd be even more surprised if it actual achieved re-entry. I'd be horrified if it actually hit a population in the South, but that would be enough fuel to the fire to bring the North down!

 

 You forget the big Elephant in the room called China. This could easily become another suicidal proxy war between the US and China.  Both countries have a fully lethal arsenal of Nuclear weapons that can reach the entire globe.

 

Knowing China if war broke out they could easily send their troops into North Korea and act as a buffer preventing the US and South Korea from defeating the North. The only option would continue a devastating and bloody brutal conflict that could lead to Nuclear War or negotiate a ceasefire like last time.

 

As for Russia I don't know I do believe they have a defence treaty like China does with North Korea. So should China get attacked the Russians would have to step in.

Edited April 8, 2013 by BW199148

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 You forget the big Elephant in the room called China. This could easily become another suicidal proxy war between the US and China.  Both countries have a fully lethal arsenal of Nuclear weapons that can reach the entire globe.

 

Knowing China if war broke they could send their troops into North Korea and act as a buffer preventing the US and South Korea from defeating the North. The only option would continue a devastating and bloody brutal conflict that could lead to Nuclear War or negotiate a ceasefire like last time.

 

As for Russia I don't know I do believe they have defence treaty like China does with North Korea. So should China get attacked the Russians would have to step in.

Er...no? Not unless the South attacks first, because I'm sure China made it clear they will leave the North on their own if they make the first strike. A proxy war is not likely in this scenario, especially when you consider how much of an embarrasment and ungrateful bastard the North is to China.

Edited April 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Stacy]

Er...no? Not unless the South attacks first, because I'm sure China made it clear they will leave the North on their own if they make the first strike. A proxy war is not likely in this scenario, especially when you consider how much of an embarrasment and ungrateful bastard the North is to China.

 

China have recently said that they won't stand for any trouble near their doorstop that goes for everybody, North Korea, South Korea and the good old US of A.

 

China won't leave North Korea. China doesn't want a Unified Korea not when the US has all the influence and is allowed to keep its military bases right near Chinas doorstop and Russia.

 

I am telling now the US won't go to war with North Korea without some kind of deal with the South. You think your government would go to war to remove a Dictator for shits and giggles?

 

Do you really want to try it and find out? 

 

EDIT: North maybe be a pain in the arse for China that doesn't mean it will leave them by the wayside and hand Korea on a plate to the US.

Edited April 8, 2013 by BW199148

[Tani Coyote]

It's really simple why the media is contradicting itself by saying they're worried and then saying North Korea's not a threat.

 

North Korea's not a threat in terms of being able to win or being able to cause long-term damage to the US, Japan, or anyone else really.

 

North Korea DOES have the power to cause quite a bit of devastation on the peninsula before they're taken out, and that is cause for worry.

 

We've determined that in the long-term they are militarily screwed, hence, "not a threat" (to us). But in terms of their ability to go out with a bang against the South Koreans? There is definitely cause for worry there.

[iDEATH]

Anyone still feeling out of the loop on this might find this video helpful

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

China have recently said that they won't stand for any trouble near their doorstop that goes for everybody, North Korea, South Korea and the good old US of A.

 

China won't leave North Korea. China doesn't want a Unified Korea not when the US has all the influence and is allowed to keep its military bases right near Chinas doorstop and Russia.

They'll be more tolerate of a Unified Korea that is friendly to China, I know that.

 

I think the bigger concern they have would be the influx of millions of North Korea refugees, which would be a problem if war did break out. But if what Jaewoo Choo is true, China would, and I quote, "place more value on their national interests than alliances blinded by ideology."

 

I am telling now the US won't go to war with North Korea without some kind of deal with the South. You think your government would go to war to remove a Dictator for shits and giggles?

Considering we're talking geopolitics, no? What the hell makes you think I believe that?

Do you really want to try it and find out? 

Kinda...

[Patticus]

I'm pretty sure that the US already has a deal with the South to lend military aid in the event of a renewal of hostilities. They'd be retarded not to have had such plans in place for a long time, being re-made every so often as technology develops.

[Stacy]

They'll be more tolerate of a Unified Korea that is friendly to China, I know that.

 

I think the bigger concern they have would be the influx of millions of North Korea refugees, which would be a problem if war did break out. But if what Jaewoo Choo is true, China would, and I quote, "place more value on their national interests than alliances blinded by ideology."

 

Considering we're talking geopolitics, no? What the hell makes you think I believe that?

Kinda...

 

Why do you think they are doing now? Even then they have more than enough troops to defend the North and their own boarders so I am still not ruling this out as a possibility. 

 

China is probably doing everything in their power right now to stop war from breaking out though both sides aren't making it easy for them.

 

So your saying a pro US Korea isn't a threat to China's interest?

 

China doesn't want a pro US Unified Korea and even if the North is defeated and Korea is unified China would probably want America out of Korea. Chinas reason for this is that Korea is unified at there is no reason for US troops to be stationed there after things have settled down and knowing the US they will do everything to keep its military presence there and I doubt the Unified Korea will have courage to kick them out after being conditioned with them all these years and South Korea would most likely have a paranoid attitude towards China and would keeps the US troops there for as long as they see China as a threat.

 

A unified Korea could spark tensions between China and the US if the US does not withdraw its military eventually.

 

See it from this perspective if the North managed to some how manage to defeat the South and there is now a pro Chinese/Communist Unified Korea would make the US very uncomfortable as only place close to China with US influence is Japan and Taiwan the US would be unable to remove Chinese influence just as China would be unable to remove US influence from a pro US Unified Korea. It would likely start a new Cold War between China and the US. 

 

Chaos as I have mentioned many times I don't think you are seeing the wider consequences a war could potentially bring or you do but don't care and just want rid of because you are sick of their shit I personally don't think its a good enough excuse.

 

Bush wanted rid of Saddam and was prepared to got to war illegally on misinformation would you do the same?

 

Despite what you may want to think I am no lover of North Korea I think they are attention seeking pain in the arse with a dated authoritarian regime but that's not enough for me to want to go to war with them. Until they phsyically attack the South with enough force that South requests assistance I won't condone a war because it has the potential it has to become a wider conflict and I don't go to war on a piss poor excuse or misinformation.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Why do you think they are doing now? Even then they have more than enough troops to defend the North and their own boarders so I am still not ruling this out as a possibility. 

Because considering that the North is being a spoiled brat at the moment, and putting the PRC in really hell of a pickle, there's a strong chance that if North Korea decides to make a stupid move and try to hide behind China again like a little boy pestering someone stronger than him China's likely going to want to avoid the consequence of a political shitstorm as much as possible.

 

China is probably doing everything in their power right now to stop war from breaking out though both sides aren't making it easy for them.

The North isn't making it easy. The US is only an additional problem for China because of the North's incompetence and trying to drag the US into a fight with them, and even China knows that the North is being completely stupid about it.

 

So your saying a pro US Korea isn't a threat to China's interest?

The US itself isn't a major threat to China's interest as far as the current geopolitics go. Stop treating it so black and white; just because they're not friends doesn't mean they're enemies.

 

And yes, I am saying a pro-US Korea isn't a threat to China's interest so long as they don't do anything antagonistic and hostile to them. They certainly aren't hostile to China now, and unless the war or something else changes their diplomatic views towards each other I'm not seeing them become hostile anytime soon.

 

Considering how much the US and China economically rely on each other, we're not going to be politically stupid towards each others interest. I have no doubt in my mind that they will definitely take an advantage over something if they see a benefit to it, but at the current moment no. And that goes doubly so when a lot of people in China itself would much rather the Korea's be united under the South instead of the North.

 

Although whether that'll happen will depend on if it actually comes to pass or not.

 

Chaos as I have mentioned many times I don't think you are seeing the wider consequences a war could potentially bring or you do but don't care and just want rid of because you are sick of their shit I personally don't think its a good enough excuse.

No, I see the wider consequences a war could bring. And in some ways I don't care, mainly because (in addition to me being sick of their shit) I doubt that it's such a cause and effect that the war would automatically lead to the events you're talking about. And the reason I say that is because it's not that black and white, because I seriously doubt either China or the US would want this to escalate and wind up going to war with each other.

 

As big as these nations are, if they've learned anything from the Cold War in the past, they'd likely try to avoid it, and that if shit doesn't play out to their favor they would do well to know when to fold their cards and try to minimize damage to prevent the shit from hitting the fan to where they'll absolutely go to war against each other no questions asked.

 

If it ever comes to pass that China does back a North Korea when they make the first strike, that's not going to look good on them internationally speaking. And come the event that they don't and the North inevitably loses, the influx of civilians from the DPRK would be a threat to China's position as an economic superpower because they don't want their regions destabilized as a result. That's one reason why China is furious with the North over their attitude and is actually approving the UN Security Council resolutions against the DPRK instead of vetoing them, and it's also a possible reason why they're stationing troops at the border.

 

Point being that neither you nor I know what will fully result from this. You expect China to back North Korea no matter what, or that in the event the North gets beaten that they would want the US presence out of the Korea (which I think we both know wouldn't happen). I expect China to back away and after the war both sides try and deal with the political shitstorm that is the aftermath of. But there's no guarantee what will happen (unless Tornado comes in and clarifies whatever it is neither of us are seeing).

 

So don't call me naive over what the wider consequences are; if I didn't know, I wouldn't even be in this topic arguing with you over it because I would have admitted it long before you would call me out on it.

Edited April 9, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[SuperStingray]

Personally, I think the threats are more to appease themselves than to strike fear into their enemies.  The most the US can say about Capitalism and Democracy is that most of its citizens hold them in high reverence, but North Korea's foreign and domestic ideology, Juche, is literally a religion.  Worse- fundamentalist religion.  Anything short of an absolute display of faith is sacrilege.  The few high-ranking members of the nation who know anything about the outside world know that they wouldn't stand a chance, but they don't want to believe it because that kind of thinking is traitorous.  I think the DPRK made these threats because they want their people to believe we fear them, not because they necessarily want us to actually fear them.  They also would disregard any concerns China has over their attitude because they are unwilling to believe any outside nation has the ability to dictate what they can or can't do.

 

In other words, DPRK is its own worst enemy from its very foundation; it's unable to exist as an independent, isolated nation yet its people and even its government is afraid of believing that.  And they will stop at nothing to pretend it is true.  They're not stupid enough to use nukes, but I will not be surprised if it comes the point that they need to tell themselves that they already did just so they don't have to talk to us.

[Tani Coyote]

Really it shows that Karl Marx wasn't entirely wrong when he said religion could be the opiate of the people (and I say this as a religious person myself). North Korea's not just brainwashing, it's created a virtual religion with the military and their government as the gods and angels of it all. Questioning the government isn't just political, it's theological, akin to questioning the Pope if you are a practicing Catholic.

 

Dogma is bad for a society, pure and simple, and it doesn't matter how few, many, or no Gods you worship as part of it. The fact the North Korean people are basically all strong followers of a cult will make it enormously difficult to reform the North if/when it collapses.

[Autosaver]

Japan vows to shoot down North Norean missiles "even if it's just a test."

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Japan vows to shoot down North Norean missiles "even if it's just a test."

Is this good or bad?

[Tani Coyote]

Oh snap. I know Japan's been wanting to step out from under the US' shadow the last few decades but that's pretty darn bold.

 

Good to know the Western Allies are establishing we're tired of their crap. They will NOT have nuclear weapons, period. We're perfectly fine with them being a hellhole, but if they have the power of the bomb, we're suddenly not going to be quite so friendly.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So it's a good thing? Because something in the back of my head is screaming that shooting down their missile could be considered a "first strike" on our side's part, which would not be a good thing.

 

I mean, granted, they'll only do it if it enter's their territory, and they have every right to do so. But something tells me it'll be completely twisted against them.

[Candescence]

China would be completely insane to consider Japan shooting down a missile test near Japan's territory as a first strike, especially since the latter has made it perfectly clear in advance that they'll shoot down any missile. To try and accuse them of such would require Insane Troll Logic.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Masaru Daimon

[Stacy]

Because considering that the North is being a spoiled brat at the moment, and putting the PRC in really hell of a pickle, there's a strong chance that if North Korea decides to make a stupid move and try to hide behind China again like a little boy pestering someone stronger than him China's likely going to want to avoid the consequence of a political shitstorm as much as possible.

 

The North isn't making it easy. The US is only an additional problem for China because of the North's incompetence and trying to drag the US into a fight with them, and even China knows that the North is being completely stupid about it.

 

The US itself isn't a major threat to China's interest as far as the current geopolitics go. Stop treating it so black and white; just because they're not friends doesn't mean they're enemies.

 

And yes, I am saying a pro-US Korea isn't a threat to China's interest so long as they don't do anything antagonistic and hostile to them. They certainly aren't hostile to China now, and unless the war or something else changes their diplomatic views towards each other I'm not seeing them become hostile anytime soon.

 

Considering how much the US and China economically rely on each other, we're not going to be politically stupid towards each others interest. I have no doubt in my mind that they will definitely take an advantage over something if they see a benefit to it, but at the current moment no. And that goes doubly so when a lot of people in China itself would much rather the Korea's be united under the South instead of the North.

 

Although whether that'll happen will depend on if it actually comes to pass or not.

 

No, I see the wider consequences a war could bring. And in some ways I don't care, mainly because (in addition to me being sick of their shit) I doubt that it's such a cause and effect that the war would automatically lead to the events you're talking about. And the reason I say that is because it's not that black and white, because I seriously doubt either China or the US would want this to escalate and wind up going to war with each other.

 

As big as these nations are, if they've learned anything from the Cold War in the past, they'd likely try to avoid it, and that if shit doesn't play out to their favor they would do well to know when to fold their cards and try to minimize damage to prevent the shit from hitting the fan to where they'll absolutely go to war against each other no questions asked.

 

If it ever comes to pass that China does back a North Korea when they make the first strike, that's not going to look good on them internationally speaking. And come the event that they don't and the North inevitably loses, the influx of civilians from the DPRK would be a threat to China's position as an economic superpower because they don't want their regions destabilized as a result. That's one reason why China is furious with the North over their attitude and is actually approving the UN Security Council resolutions against the DPRK instead of vetoing them, and it's also a possible reason why they're stationing troops at the border.

 

Point being that neither you nor I know what will fully result from this. You expect China to back North Korea no matter what, or that in the event the North gets beaten that they would want the US presence out of the Korea (which I think we both know wouldn't happen). I expect China to back away and after the war both sides try and deal with the political shitstorm that is the aftermath of. But there's no guarantee what will happen (unless Tornado comes in and clarifies whatever it is neither of us are seeing).

 

So don't call me naive over what the wider consequences are; if I didn't know, I wouldn't even be in this topic arguing with you over it because I would have admitted it long before you would call me out on it.

 

No I am not sure what China will do I am just pointing out the possibilities and it worries me this why I am trying to see it from different points.

 

I am not seeing this in black and white I am trying to see the potential wider effects the conflict could bring. It is probably one of the main reasons why President Bill Clinton didn't launch a pre-emptive strike when they began Nuclear production in the mid 90's the risks would be too great for the US and the world. 

 

Sorry to be elephant in room and be that person that doesn't want war unless it is absolutely necessary.

 

As you can tell I am not the push the button let God sort them out type person.

 

If the North and the US can't negotiate with each other what the hell can we do to prevent war peacefully?

 

Everybody else is caught in the undertow.

Edited April 9, 2013 by BW199148

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No I am not sure what China will do I am just pointing out the possibilities and it worries me this why I am trying to see it from different points.

Well I'm seeing too much information leading to China leaving the North on their ass if they fire first. The North's tantrum and putting the PRC in a difficult position only makes me more confident that will happen if they slip up.

 

I am not seeing this in black and white I am trying to see the potential wider effects the conflict could bring. It is probably one of the main reasons why President Bill Clinton didn't launch a pre-emptive strike when they began Nuclear production in the mid 90's the risks would be too great for the US and the world. 

Launching a pre-emptive strike is the exact thing I don't want to happen considering that it would automatically bring China into the conflict and lead to the very stuff you're talking about. Hence why I've said several times in this topic that I want the North to shoot first so that China will likely stay out of it because of their recklessness.

 

Sorry to be elephant in room and be that person that doesn't want war unless it is absolutely necessary.

Really? And who here actually had a problem with that?

As you can tell I am not the push the button let God sort them out type person.

Well neither am I since I pretty much don't believe in God...

If the North and the US can't negotiate with each other what the hell can we do to prevent war peacefully?

As far as I can tell, nothing. If China can't influence their ally and keep them from wanting war, then there's nothing to prevent a war except for both sides to not shoot at each other.

 

I'm confident the US and the South are smart enough not to shoot at the North first, but the same can't be said of the North.

Edited April 9, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Patticus]

Japan vows to shoot down North Norean missiles "even if it's just a test."

Japan's Defence Force wouldn't be doing its job if it didn't prepare for the possibility that North Korea might posssibly launch a missile its way.

NK doesn't have the capability right now to launch missile-bound nuclear materials, but given how its recent prolonged spell of belligerency is making all the regional governments nervous, it's understandable that the Japanese would want some level of re-assurance of protection.