The North Korea Thread: Threats, Propaganda and a brewing Holocaust

[iDEATH]

http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-moves-two-more-missile-launchers-report-035049930.html

 

It seems North Korea is still far from the negotiating table.   

 

 

"Hey America, I am not dead!".

 

I was thinking about this yesterday, it's as if the news totally forgot they were even there.

 

One minute wewere all gonna die then the next, "North Korea?.....who dey?"

[Tani Coyote]

I'm with the sentiment I don't think talks are going to do anything. The North's rebuffed China, so there's no real hope they'll listen to anyone else.

 

Now it's time for a game of chicken. Unfortunately, North Korea's fresh out of the egg whereas all those around them are mighty roosters. There's no way they're going to come out ahead.

 

We've made our stance clear. We'll pull back our forces if the North stop's acting like a petulant child. China honestly can't hold us at fault here. We will honor our agreement regardless of ulterior motives, due to the value of one's international reputation. So now the ball is in Pyongyang's court.

 

Honestly I'm surprised China hasn't toyed with the idea of staging a coup. They'd get a regime possibly even more subservient and also deal with this problem. Heck, disposing of a monarchy would be in line with Communist ideals.

[Stacy]

Honestly I'm surprised China hasn't toyed with the idea of staging a coup. They'd get a regime possibly even more subservient and also deal with this problem. Heck, disposing of a monarchy would be in line with Communist ideals.

 

I thought about this myself but for some reason they feel it is better to leave North Korea to itself China has no need to damage their reputation unless the situation was really unstable and a threat to their interrests.

 

Kim Jong-un does seem like a Monarch but they never flat out said that they were an Empire or a Monarchy. They see themselves more like Gods especially Kim il Sung who is literally a deity in North Korea.   

 

They recently remove pictures and mural of Karl Marx and Lenin.

 

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/20/iran-oil-north-korea/2098777/

 

Iran is to provide Oil to North Korea probably in exchange for help on their Nuclear program as well as weapons and resources.

 

Sanctions seem to be useless if the North can receive economic support else where. Next the only option might be a Naval blockade which would increasing tensions to their breaking point, it would be a risky gamble.    

Edited April 21, 2013 by BW199148

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I thought Iran stopped their nuclear program because of North Korea acting like a brat?

 

Guess not then.

 

Either way, the North is just putting itself more and more in a bad situation here. Kinda surprised the thought of China staging a coup never came to my mind, because that would very much put the North Korea people in some better hands than it is in now.

 

But at this point, North can either stop what it's doing (which it probably won't, but who knows) or risk getting itself destroyed.

[Stacy]

I thought Iran stopped their nuclear program because of North Korea acting like a brat?

 

Guess not then.

 

Either way, the North is just putting itself more and more in a bad situation here. Kinda surprised the thought of China staging a coup never came to my mind, because that would very much put the North Korea people in some better hands than it is in now.

 

But at this point, North can either stop what it's doing (which it probably won't, but who knows) or risk getting itself destroyed.

 

That is rich coming from them seeing as they issued a warning that any attack on their facilities would mean Nuclear War even though there is no evidence of Iran having WMD's. At least for now anyway.   

[Tani Coyote]

Kim Jong-un does seem like a Monarch but they never flat out said that they were an Empire or a Monarchy. They see themselves more like Gods especially Kim il Sung who is literally a deity in North Korea.   

 

They recently remove pictures and mural of Karl Marx and Lenin.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/20/iran-oil-north-korea/2098777/

 

Iran is to provide Oil to North Korea probably in exchange for help on their Nuclear program as well as weapons and resources.

 

Sanctions seem to be useless if the North can receive economic support else where. Next the only option might be a Naval blockade which would increasing tensions to their breaking point, it would be a risky gamble.    

 

Iran claims to be a democracy, but few will concede that to them. Korea's a monarchy, despite all their denial of such. That, on top of their removal of Marxist figures, gives China large ideological reason to kick them to the curb. China's support for them at this point is solely to stem US influence and nothing else. Which is why a coup would be a third way if quick enough - it would put a regime still favorable to China's interests in charge, and possibly even score China points in terms of communist ideology (China's not really communist but hey it makes for good PR).

 

The fact Iran's providing aid to North Korea isn't going to help the North's position any. I'm going to say this: Jong Un and the Ayatollah should be glad we have a Democrat in office. I can't imagine what would be going on if we were under President Romney or McCain right now.

 

But at this point, North can either stop what it's doing (which it probably won't, but who knows) or risk getting itself destroyed.

 

The art of brinkmanship is a fine one. I'm sure Jong Un's sane enough despite all his rhetoric to know not to push too much harder. I wouldn't be surprised if he's actually been in touch with Beijing and has let them know it's all for show.

[Indigo Rush]

The bloodthirsty arch-rivals of America are now begging for food.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/04/22/north-korea-asks-mongolia-for-food-aid/

 

 

As North Korea heads into the time of year when its food supplies run low, it appears to be looking for new donors.

Reuters North Korean soldiers dug up plants on the banks of the Yalu River near the North Korean town of Sinuiju, opposite the Chinese border city of Dandong, in 2010.

 

At a courtesy call on the Mongolian president last week, Pyongyang’s new ambassador made a request for food aid, according to the official website for the head of state.

 

“North Korea may face (a) severe food shortage,” Ambassador Hong Gyu told President Elbegdorj, according to the account. Mr. Hong then asked for Mongolia to consider the possibility of delivering food aid to North Korea, the account said.

 

North Korea’s toughest part of the year for food begins in April and runs through September, when the annual corn harvest begins. Kwon Tae-jin, a scholar on North Korean agriculture in Seoul said that last year’s yield was moderate, but not sufficient to tide the country over.

 

“We’ve learned that while rations are being delivered, it varies region by region,” said Dr. Kwon, a director at the Korea Rural Economic Institute in Seoul. “But it isn’t sufficient to go around for everyone.”

 

There are other signs of food shortages. Daily NK, a news website staffed by North Korean defectors, reported last week that Pyongyang did not distribute food to the northernmost province for the biggest holiday of the year; the April 15 anniversary of the birthday of North Korean founder Kim Il Sung.

 

Since the severe famine in the 1990s, North Korea has struggled to feed its people.

 

Assistance from international organizations and South Korea has dropped in recent years but President Park Geun-hye has pledged to continue providing aid to the North despite a deterioration in relations with Pyongyang.

 

 

Wonder if this'll change anything between China-NK relations.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Tani Coyote]

Hoping Mongolia tells them "Nope!"

 

The North's not willing to listen to reason, so they need to be punished by other means. Innocent people suffer as a natural consequence of geopolitics. We either keep feeding the North Korean people, which reduces the pressure, or we all cut back food aid which makes it skyrocket.

 

Really, it's no different than how boycotts can put a lot of people out of work. Sometimes people sadly have to suffer for there to be any changes made.

 

Who knows, maybe some day we'll get lucky and enough people will be so starving they'll flat out riot. And hopefully China will arm them.

[iDEATH]

Hoping Mongolia tells them "Nope!"

 

The North's not willing to listen to reason, so they need to be punished by other means. Innocent people suffer as a natural consequence of geopolitics. We either keep feeding the North Korean people, which reduces the pressure, or we all cut back food aid which makes it skyrocket.

Really, it's no different than how boycotts can put a lot of people out of work. Sometimes people sadly have to suffer for there to be any changes made.

 

This doesn't sit right with me....while I hate the idea of aiding a country that wants to war against you. It's not the idiots at the top you're helping. It's the poor and needy that those same idiots don't give a fuck about.

 

I honestly don't know what the right thing to do in this situation is.....

[Tani Coyote]

This doesn't sit right with me....while I hate the idea of aiding a country that wants to war against you. It's not the idiots at the top you're helping. It's the poor and needy that those same idiots don't give a fuck about.

 

I honestly don't know what the right thing to do in this situation is.....

 

That's the thing though. These people are the regime's base of support at the end of the day. They need to be fed or else they'll get antsy.

 

It's why the Romans devised the idea of bread and circuses. It's why Bismarck started social security in Germany. If you give your society's most needy a few token luxuries they'll quiet down. This is why the North, which is so apathetic towards its populace, wants food; they know if the people are pushed too far they will do something drastic. People shouldn't fear their governments; governments should fear their people.

 

The sad fact is we NEED to make the people of the North angry. Change is not going to come from above. They need to rise up, and lead Kim Jong Un and his inner circle to the center of Pyongyang like Louis XVI.

 

Do I wish we could avoid a bloody outcome that will likely have thousands of deaths on both sides? Of course. Unfortunately, there are some that words and reason do not reach.

 

North Korea's not backing down. China's not going to replace the government. There's only one other way for the government to change...

Edited April 22, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Stacy]

The obvious problem is the Kim Jong-un, the army, people that benefit from the regime they don't give two shits about the people. You rise up, anybody, no matter what position you have you get a Type-58 Rifle bullet to the back of the head and berried in an unmarked pit.

 

The people there believe that when anything bad happens it is a Americas fault. So the people must be thinking why haven't we attacked them already?  People want blood and they want their leader to deliver that blood. This is a big problem.

 

You may have noticed that all the parades feature military personal very rarely if at all they have civilians.

 

South Korea despite their deteriorating relationship with the North they still are giving them aid.

 

 

I recommend watching this good insight into how North Korea currently functions. 

Edited April 23, 2013 by BW199148

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ugh...I just hate their government. I know I'm still pushing for the DPRK to made good on their threats, but I really dislike putting the populance in such a hard position like this...

 

If it's the only way to get them to rise up against their leaders, it seems like a necessary evil, but...ugh. I dunno.

[Tani Coyote]

I think the "the population is brainwashed" argument isn't entirely well-founded. A lot of the people who are brainwashed seem well taken care of... the scientists and such. Of course the state looks after them, they are vital to the government's continued function.

 

There is no way the average North Korean sees a lack of food, is told it's America's fault, and then doesn't start to think, "...why isn't the government providing for our food then?" Goebbels wasn't entirely right when he said you could keep lying and it'd be seen as the truth. Eventually your lies get so outrageous people call you out on it. Not openly given the risk of summary execution, but in their minds, most definitely. I think loads of North Koreans at this point know their government isn't any better than the foreign ones, but won't stand against it out of fear or because they think the guys outside are worse. Eventually basic logic had to click in and make them comprehend that the state is horrible at managing the economy.

 

As for denying food aid and causing the country to continue to slide into the hellhole: Machiavelli wasn't being an idiot when he said that good people need to learn to be not good to prosper as rulers. People like us are common citizens and are fortunate enough to never have to sacrifice our morals for the bigger picture. When works of fiction state that being a good leader means making tough choices, they aren't exactly romanticising it.

 

Let us look at it economically. Food is the one resource people will do anything to get. People do all sorts of crazy things in North Korea to try and acquire food, no matter how harsh the consequences may be. These people KNOW the government's crap, for certain, but understand they're going to die anyway if they don't eat, so don't care what the state tells them. It stands to reason that as the food situation grows worse, the country's stability will deteriorate. So, it's looking increasingly like a necessary evil.

 

We need change to happen. Change can happen in three ways: the government changes itself. Not gonna happen. Another government changes the government. Not gonna happen. The people change the government. ...still possible.

 

Call me a pessimist, but I am not seeing a North Korea in the future that isn't marred by some sort of conflict. Whether domestic or foreign, a war will happen on its soil.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Stacy]

Problem is for what I know about what you want might not happen as it would of happened by now. During the 1990's during North Korea's massive famine which left the country far worse off than it is now. If an uprising did occur  it would be very brutal I imagine it would be 10x worse than the 1989 Romanian Revolution and I simply don't see it happening unless they unable to maintain its army. Not saying that is a bad thing unless China and the US interfere. 

 

They know the government is oppressing them by they still blame America for interfering.

 

If South Korea has some people bitter towards the United States imagine what the North Koreans are like.  

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/23/north-korea-rejects-us-conditions-talks

 

Looks like the talks are still going nowhere. Secretly every Country wants a Nuclear deterrent. I don't agree with that way of thinking but I understand it but I still don't agree with it. Hell I don't think anyone should Nuclear Weapons at all but without them we would be having World War VIII by now.

[Stacy]

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130428/DEFREG/304280004/Report-N-Korea-Set-Stage-Major-Military-Drill

 

North Korea is preparing for a major military "drill".

 

They might bomb an island like they did last time which would be a terrible move admit all the tension.

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/north-korea-says-detained-american-tourist-face-trial-161807684.html

 

 

Meanwhile North Korean is detained an American Tourist for committing "crimes" against the North Korean state. No doubt the North will be using him as leverage.

[Tani Coyote]

The insurgency beheaded several Americans and other members of the occupying coalition in Iraq, and we still didn't pull out until much, much later. They're not going to gain anything from this.

 

As for a drill, that's cute and all Kim, but the fact is your army would still get shredded by the opposition's. Makes for good press with your population though I'm sure. Even without the photoshopping.

 

I'm not scared of these guys at all really. They're striking me as basically being akin to that angsty teenager who keeps threatening to do this or that so as to get attention, but never goes through with it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They're making it an even more personal matter holding hostages like that, and just provoking things even more...

[Tani Coyote]

They're making it an even more personal matter holding hostages like that, and just provoking things even more...

 

Sad thing is it won't amount to anything. As I mentioned above, did they not watch what happened in Iraq during the occupation? Insurgents slaughtered quite a few hostages and we didn't pull out until it was no longer politically feasible to remain there.

 

On the other hand, due to the fact we've got no shortage of exceptionalism, seeing this is going to increase the public's appetite for blood. I think Kim is trying to goad us into attacking first. Obama's levelheaded, though, so I'm sure he won't fall into a stupid trap like that. I think he can risk alienating a small portion of the voters instead of alienating a ton with the threat of war with China.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Stacy]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/north-korea-holds-seven-south-040929547.html

 

Oh shit, this is not good. 

 

EDIT: The North is holding South Korean Kaesong workers until bills are paid.

Edited April 30, 2013 by BW199148

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yeah, they're really playing smart about this.

 

I'd say China needs to seriously intervene more, because this is just getting messy now.

[Stacy]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/04/30/uk-korea-north-sanctions-china-idUKBRE93T15K20130430?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

 

Well least they have done something but is it enough to deter the North to abandon their Nuclear weapons program?

 

My biggest fear is one side is going sit up and just flip the card table over and do something rash, be it North Korea, US, China, Japan or South Korea. No side is willing to comprise over anything.

[Tani Coyote]

The problem is development of nuclear weapons. What does North Korea need them for? They have China to support them. I know their whole ideology is self-reliance, but it's not unreasonable to suggest they don't need them. We've tried to cut back nuclear weapons the last two decades; we also want to make sure that countries that have them can be trusted to act responsibly. If much wealthier Russia sometimes has trouble accounting for all its weapons, why in God's name would we want a hellhole like North Korea to have them?

 

Maybe if they showed themselves to be a stable, responsible member of the international community, we wouldn't be raising such a fuss over it. You don't see western nations causing a riot over American, British or French ownership of such weapons. Even despite the occasional dispute with China and Russia, we've accepted them as responsible members of the global order. We're not so sure about Iran or North Korea. Before one spouts such typical bull that the USA doesn't want North Korea to have nukes so we could invade them some day, remember China is protecting them; there is no grand plot to conquer the North. There is, however, an interest in keeping a hostile regime from developing the technology and conveniently "losing" one of its weapons.

 

If they just gave up the nuclear program, this would all go away. We (as in our governments) don't care that they treat their people like garbage. We're concerned that a hostile regime that could very potentially collapse in the future has its mitts on nuclear weapons. See how the United States has always kept a close eye on Pakistan; we do our best to prop them up because their stability is questionable and if they fell it's very possible a radical regime could get a hold of those weapons.

 

Really this is all just to make Kim look like a good figurehead I'm inclined. The North's sane (...I think) enough to not actually want a war. There's no common sense why they'd be working so hard to isolate themselves otherwise; they're missing out on huge amounts of developmental aid with all this saber rattling.

 

Then again you have folks like Mugabe who ran their country into the ground on the basis of stupid ideologies, so I guess this could be the case here too.

[Stacy]

The problem is development of nuclear weapons. What does North Korea need them for? They have China to support them. I know their whole ideology is self-reliance, but it's not unreasonable to suggest they don't need them. We've tried to cut back nuclear weapons the last two decades; we also want to make sure that countries that have them can be trusted to act responsibly. If much wealthier Russia sometimes has trouble accounting for all its weapons, why in God's name would we want a hellhole like North Korea to have them?

 

Maybe if they showed themselves to be a stable, responsible member of the international community, we wouldn't be raising such a fuss over it. You don't see western nations causing a riot over American, British or French ownership of such weapons. Even despite the occasional dispute with China and Russia, we've accepted them as responsible members of the global order. We're not so sure about Iran or North Korea. Before one spouts such typical bull that the USA doesn't want North Korea to have nukes so we could invade them some day, remember China is protecting them; there is no grand plot to conquer the North. There is, however, an interest in keeping a hostile regime from developing the technology and conveniently "losing" one of its weapons.

 

If they just gave up the nuclear program, this would all go away. We (as in our governments) don't care that they treat their people like garbage. We're concerned that a hostile regime that could very potentially collapse in the future has its mitts on nuclear weapons. See how the United States has always kept a close eye on Pakistan; we do our best to prop them up because their stability is questionable and if they fell it's very possible a radical regime could get a hold of those weapons.

 

Really this is all just to make Kim look like a good figurehead I'm inclined. The North's sane (...I think) enough to not actually want a war. There's no common sense why they'd be working so hard to isolate themselves otherwise; they're missing out on huge amounts of developmental aid with all this saber rattling.

 

Then again you have folks like Mugabe who ran their country into the ground on the basis of stupid ideologies, so I guess this could be the case here too.

 

China doesn't really support them that much any more. Its complicated. They are sick of the provocations but they don't want the regime to fall. They don't want a Pro US Korea as well as losing access to the natural resources the North has among several investments. 

 

As for the US keeping an eye on Pakistan how are they going to do that when the US pull out of Afghanistan and the Middle East as they have been doing?

 

The US has been building up a large Military presence in the Far East months before this Crisis why? Who is the threat? If there is none then the US Government screwed up they should done this build up discreet and slow. Not fast and rapid pissing off Countries like China, Russia and North Korea who don't trust the US and vice versa.

 

I first thought of pulling out of the Middle East was a good thing due to futility of it all but I feel it is going to bite us in the arse at some point in the near future.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-18/china-s-anti-carrier-missile-now-opposite-taiwan-flynn-says.html?cmpid=yhoo

 

China seem to be building up their military as well.  

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I am seriously fearing a possible WWIII at this point. Totally not what I had intended with all my war-hawking...but then again, I've made that clear several times.

 

Still want the North to shoot first, but this is just getting further and further into the gray at this point. Man, international chaos is quite interesting at times...

Edited May 1, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[PSI Wind]

It's kinda like a second Cold War.