The Sonic Vs Thread.

[Tani Coyote]

Er...we chalk those things up to a wizard scientist doing that. In the same sense we don't ask how Omega has infinite ammo or how Tails is capable of using his tails as a rotor when that should be physically impossible.

 

Those talents don't make them very overpowered, though. Shadow's level of power necessitates him needing some serious drawbacks for weakness.

 

And none of those things have anything to do with weaknesses either in the fashion that you're making them out to be than they are descriptive of the character's physiology, and it goes without saying that Shadow being capable of jumping who knows how many stories high or having his hover shoes provide lift for him would mean that he's not that heavy.

 

Actually if he's dependent on chaos energy that's a weakness; take away his chaos energy and his great power is null. This is why it's key to establish how much of him is physically powerful versus how much of it is just channeling energy.

 

Since when? The M.E. as we currently know it is only capable of stopping the Chaos Emeralds from doing whatever the hell they may be doing, not any other source that is capable of storing such energy independent from said Emeralds.

 

Granted, that would be an interesting tool to use against him, but in either case: how do you know stabbing him with it won't increase that power rather than nullify it? Because what we do know is that the Master Emerald is equally capable of supercharging things such as the Death Egg and Mecha Sonic. A fragment could easily give a boost instead...unless that's what you were talking about?

 

I was moreso being overdramatic and pointing out that since the Master Emerald can nullify chaos abilities, logically if one knows how to make use of said emerald they could use that against him. We don't even know if the shards carry any power themselves, though. It's all really obscure.

 

Now, onto my delicious battle proposal!

 

===

 

The battle I’ve always wanted to see. One between my two favorite Sonic villains.

 

 

Dark Enerjak versus Super Sonic (StC)!

 

First, let us detail our combatants’ backstories.

 

Super Sonic in the StC continuity is nothing like the standard version. With chaos energy having been tainted in the Fleetway continuity, tapping into its power generally drives a person either insane or evil. Super Sonic has varied depending on his writer, from a hotblooded lunatic to someone who is genuinely evil and sadistic. In earlier appearances he was more crazy than anything else, but upon being separated from Sonic during an incident, he gained some semblance of self-awareness, enough that he could hold back his powers to more efficiently hunt Sonic down. While the threat of Super Sonic was soon rendered docile when he lost his memory and turned good, he

eventually gave up his sanity to save the planet, before being forcefully fused with Sonic again. He has appeared a few times since then, notably to even the odds against the incredibly strong Shadow. Regardless of what personality he’s decided to take up that particular day, he is incredibly potent and dangerous. Silver comes from a future that has been destroyed by Iblis…  revealed to be a Super Sonic who never loses his power.

 

Dark Enerjak has his roots in the echidna known as Knuckles. Infused with chaos energy at a young age, Knuckles eventually mutated into a near-omnipotent being, Chaos Knuckles. While Ian Flynn’s made the exact

details a bit conflicting, at some point Knuckles deemed it his responsibility to protect the planet and took the name Enerjak; he proceeded to subjugate it. As time went on he became increasingly more insane, though confident in the

idea he was the best hero Mobius had ever known. He vanquished Eggman with ease, beat Super Sonic to a pulp, and then eliminated most heroes or villains, extracting their very souls to power his Prelate constructs in an occultic

twist on the Badnik concept. With an army that constantly regenerates and unlimited power, Enerjak can only be stopped by the Sword of Acorns.

 

Coincidentally both of these villains’ greatest threat was their Silver the Hedgehog, the only hero able to hold his own

against both of them.

 

Now, for powers. Both of these guys are high off chaos energy.

 

Super Sonic has been shown to have the power to turn himself into a neutron bomb, vaporizing the comet he was imprisoned in with ease. He is invincible, faster than just about anything, and is equipped with a wide degree of energy or physical attacks that allow him to floor any opponent. In his Iblis transformation, his energy supply is apparently infinite, though it’s stated he usually only attacks during the night time. He also appears to have lost any and all reasoning power, making no sounds apart from psychotic laughter in this state, which would indicate his mind is completely gone. He is also able to absorb chaos energy from other beings, based on how he robbed Chaos of all seven emeralds’ power in a matter of seconds.

 

Dark Enerjak has had years to master his powers. He sunk an entire continent, vaporized the entirety of the GUN fleet in a matter of minutes, was able to hit Silver with the entirety of Angel Island, and has become so proficient he can remove his enemy’s life forces and reconstruct them into his lifeless, metallic Prelate warriors. Smug in his

control over the planet, he has intellectually developed quite well over the years, actually sending warriors to scout out other realities so he could find new challenges.

 

Now for weaknesses. This is brief. Both are in a state of infinite power (I shall be using Super Sonic’s Iblis state) for some reason or another.

 

Dark Enerjak is invincible barring the use of the Sword of Acorns on him, which can drain his power. Someone with psychokinetic powers like Silver is able to capture his energy attacks and reflect them back at him, the only thing that appears to cause him pain. Logically, only chaos energy can hurt him, and large amounts would be necessary to defeat him at all. 

 

Super Sonic can be caught off guard, which seems to inflict some pain on him, even if it inflicts no lasting damage, as demonstrated by Tails. Super Sonic’s biggest weakness is likely his development of a sadistic side – whereas originally he was concerned purely with killing, ever since he separated from Sonic he’s gained some inclination towards prolonging his foes’ suffering. This could potentially open him to attack. However, his Iblis state makes it appear he’s lost that weakness. Perhaps his greatest weakness would be the Gray Emerald’s ability to nullify Chaos energy.

 

Now for an actual fight. Seems Jaxxy finally found his long-awaited challenge. But, who shall triumph?

 

Enerjak’s witty remarks are beyond the scope of the psychotic Iblis’ mind; the latter knows nothing but how to destroy. Sonic and Knuckles meet once more on the field of battle, to settle their old rivalry. It is a battle of chaos versus order, of a mastermind versus a lunatic. Both of them have destroyed the worlds they originated from, and now they must… destroy eachother.

 

Enerjak’s Prelates would be useful distractions if not for how quick they’d get cut to pieces. While Enerjak is a very good strategist, such talent is somewhat useless against someone who’s so hotblooded they are unpredictable. At the same time, all of Super Sonic’s attacks will have minimal effect against Enerjak, who while feeling pain, will lose no more energy than Super will. Locked in combat and with no end to stamina or attack power, neither could triumph over the other.

 

There are a few scenarios that would allow the battle to end one way or another. Enerjak’s reasoning power gives him a huge advantage: should he have the Master Emerald in his possession, it is plausible that he can use it against Super Sonic, assuming the Chaos physics of both universes are more or less consistent. If that doesn’t work, the best idea would be to somehow get Super Sonic to detonate himself; the blast would be incredibly destructive, but could quite possibly knock him out of his powered state and render him vulnerable for just a few brief moments, enough to snatch his Core.

 

Super Sonic has his own advantages, however. The precedent against Perfect Chaos being set, he was able to absorb the Emeralds themselves from the water beast. Logically, if he collides with Enerjak, he could very possibly absorb whatever implements Knuckles has on/in him into himself. The result? A weak, elderly Knuckles and some echidna sushi.

 

Conclusion: Indecisive. Both sides clearly have a means to defeat the other, but the only way to know would be for StH and StC to have a crossover.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Kuzu]

I have to ask, but is Sonic's super form in STC significantly more powerful than his standard one?

[Tani Coyote]

I have to ask, but is Sonic's super form in STC significantly more powerful than his standard one?

 

StC Super is shown to blow up gigantic asteroids, tear through the strongest metal there is, and shoot powerful lasers from his eyes that can vaporise people if he feels so inclined. He also made future Mobius' air toxic, it looks like, based on the fact everyone but Silver wears gas masks out in the open. At one point, Super Sonic debated incinerating the O-zone layer so he could watch the entire planet slowly die from radiation poisoning.

 

Really, I'm inclined to think he and the canon Super are of the same power, it's just that canon Super shows restraint (the same way you could punch someone softly as a joke, or really hard if your intent is to injure). Canon Sonic doesn't want to blow everyone up, so holds himself back. StC Super, on the other hand, finds that idea devilishly fun.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Those talents don't make them very overpowered, though. Shadow's level of power necessitates him needing some serious drawbacks for weakness.

Well neither does his skeletal weight or what we know of his genetics.

 

Although Omega having infinite ammo is VERY overpowering.

Actually if he's dependent on chaos energy that's a weakness; take away his chaos energy and his great power is null. This is why it's key to establish how much of him is physically powerful versus how much of it is just channeling energy.

But if you take away his Chaos Energy, he still has his non-Chaos powers to fall back on, which is essentially the same as Sonic's. And we ALL know just how powerful Sonic is on his own strength.

I was moreso being overdramatic and pointing out that since the Master Emerald can nullify chaos abilities, logically if one knows how to make use of said emerald they could use that against him. We don't even know if the shards carry any power themselves, though. It's all really obscure.

Sounds like something we should be making use of...that I've been saying for how long? (Help me out guys, we've argued this for a while. )

[Tani Coyote]

 But if you take away his Chaos Energy, he still has his non-Chaos powers to fall back on, which is essentially the same as Sonic's. And we ALL know just how powerful Sonic is on his own strength.

 

But what are his non-Chaos traits? His great strength could just as easily be from a super dense skeleton and muscle tissue as it could be chaos enhancements.

 

To what extent would his immortal status deteriorate without chaos energy? Would he slowly age, but still live a hundred or two hundred years easily, rapidly degenerate into elder status, or have an ordinary lifespan?

 

Is his speed the product of superior design, his skating shoes, or energy? If some combination, to what extent does each contribute?

 

This is why I keep arguing it's important - because it establishes how much you could weaken him if you took away his powers. Would he just lose his niftier tricks, or would he become near powerless?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But what are his non-Chaos traits? His great strength could just as easily be from a super dense skeleton and muscle tissue as it could be chaos enhancements.

The homing attack and spin-dash and all the other standard abilities? What did you think I meant by "being the same as Sonic's"?

 

To what extent would his immortal status deteriorate without chaos energy? Would he slowly age, but still live a hundred or two hundred years easily, rapidly degenerate into elder status, or have an ordinary lifespan?

I'd say his immortality and chaos powers are separate, mainly due to his creation being primarily about immortality first. The Chaos Powers were probably secondary, but that's just an assumption.

 

Is his speed the product of superior design, his skating shoes, or energy? If some combination, to what extent does each contribute?

Now that is something that needs to be answered, but I think it's safe to say that it has nothing to do with energy and more whether it's the shoes or his body.

 

This is why I keep arguing it's important - because it establishes how much you could weaken him if you took away his powers. Would he just lose his niftier tricks, or would he become near powerless?

Define "near powerless" in a series where the potentially weakest character is the series is a 6 year old gamebreaker with a chao, or where an 8 year old with a mech can storm into the base with the strongest security at the time just to rescue a friend and get out safely, and both of these characters are willing to take on death robots all the way up to weaponized air fleets and space stations.

 

You take away Shadow's powers, which is probably possible considering Eggman did it to Super Sonic, it's easy to assume that at the very least his abilities will fall back to being exactly like Sonic's and would still be a force to reckon with. He was capable of giving his foes a hard time when the only Chaos Power he had was Chaos Control, and when he first began using it, he only used it at least 4 times before they started expanding. Shadow would likely still be a nuisance even without those powers.

Edited February 27, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tani Coyote]

The homing attack and spin-dash and all the other standard abilities? What did you think I meant by "being the same as Sonic's"?

 

Given his status as an artificial being, for all we know those powers are the result of his unique, engineered physiology. Contrast to Sonic's inborn talents. Like convergent evolution, kind of. One artificial, one natural, same overall result.

 

For all we know Sonic's some mutant thing himself, and removing Shadow's chaos abilities could possibly remove the abilities he so easily replicates of Sonic's. 

 

Notice the great use of ambiguities in my argument. Sega just hasn't clarified what comes from where. He could easily have all of Sonic's abilities if his chaos techniques are removed, or he could still be stronger than Sonic if a lot of his power lies in his actual structure. Or he could have zero abilities at all and become completely ordinary. There's no clear delineation where his natural abilities end and his chaos-augmented ones begin.

 

Even without emeralds he's seen using chaos attacks, indicating he has a natural link... but that's all we know really. That natural link could augment his speed, intelligence, and strength, or it could just give him nifty force lightning on top of what he could already do. Who knows.

[Sparky]

I personally believe that Sonic's standard abilities, including his great speed, comes from Chaos Energy due to the fact that when he uses his abilities, he generates blue energy from his body. So sapping all the chaos energy from Shadows body would, in my opinion, leave him as just a normal average Mobian/Anthro Hedgehog.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Notice the great use of ambiguities in my argument. Sega just hasn't clarified what comes from where. He could easily have all of Sonic's abilities if his chaos techniques are removed, or he could still be stronger than Sonic if a lot of his power lies in his actual structure. Or he could have zero abilities at all and become completely ordinary. There's no clear delineation where his natural abilities end and his chaos-augmented ones begin.

But that's just overthinking things and filling holes in places where there is no data, dude.

 

But considering how even the six year old rabbit girl with a chao is capable of most of Sonic's abilities, and she's about as ordinary as you can get for the recurring cast, it would work tremendously against the notion that Shadow would be ordinary without his Chaos powers allowing him to do even simpler techniques such as spin-dashing and homing attacking. You can't say that the 50 year old ultimate lifeform, stripped of his powers would be completely powerless where as the 6 year old girl is still a capable fighter even without her gamebreaking chao.

 

See what I mean?

 

Even without emeralds he's seen using chaos attacks, indicating he has a natural link... but that's all we know really. That natural link could augment his speed, intelligence, and strength, or it could just give him nifty force lightning on top of what he could already do. Who knows.

I'd like to stay within the realm of information the series provides and building on it. Anything that causes a dissonance would make it an even more chaotic mess, and I'd like some standard abilities to at the very least be coherent for the cast.

 

Him using Chaos attacks without the emeralds probably him storing energy seperately, which isn't too far fetched considering characters like Chaos did it at their most powerful before disposing of them after reaching his final state.

Edited February 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sparky]

But that's just overthinking things and filling holes in places where there is no data, dude.

 

But considering how even the six year old rabbit girl with a chao is capable of most of Sonic's abilities, and she's about as ordinary as you can get for the recurring cast, it would work tremendously against the notion that Shadow would be ordinary without his Chaos powers allowing him to do even simpler techniques such as spin-dashing and homing attacking. You can't say that the 50 year old ultimate lifeform, stripped of his powers would be completely powerless where as the 6 year old girl is still a capable fighter even without her gamebreaking chao.

 

See what I mean?

 

I'd like to stay within the realm of information the series provides and building on it. Anything that causes a dissonance would make it an even more chaotic mess, and I'd like some standard abilities to at the very least be coherent for the cast.

 

Him using Chaos attacks without the emeralds probably him storing energy seperately, which isn't too far fetched considering characters like Chaos did it at their most powerful before disposing of them after reaching his final state.

Don't Chao have some sort of magical energy in them? If so, then Cream having most of Sonic's abilities make sense since she's always around Chao.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Don't Chao have some sort of magical energy in them? If so, then Cream having most of Sonic's abilities make sense since she's always around Chao.

Excuse my french, but that is a blatant asspull and makes absolutely no sense.

 

So no.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Ya, this is just starting to get a bit........ rediculous. Would you guys mind  if I turned this verbal duel into a scene for the new monthly Stadium video?

 

There is the fact that it is said that Chaos was a mutated Chao......... they might have a connection to them, however its never been played on too heavy. Anyways, she had all her abilities in heroes and didnt use Cheese once

[Sparky]

Well, in the comics, Chao and Chao Gardens have some mystical energy in them, so that's why I ask.

[Komodin]

Well, in the comics, Chao and Chao Gardens have some mystical energy in them, so that's why I ask.

 

They don't have such an affinity with that stuff in the games. The only Chao that is confirmed to have mingled with Chaos Energy is Chaos.

[Tani Coyote]

Ya, this is just starting to get a bit........ rediculous. Would you guys mind  if I turned this verbal duel into a scene for the new monthly Stadium video?

 

Yeah, while I always like debating in-universe physics, this has drifted from being the Versus thread into the "Where does Shadow get his power from and what are his weaknesses" thread. I apologise.

 

I suppose I'll need to think of some other good matchups. Let's see what we've got in the toolbox.

 

Fleetway Super Sonic versus ordinary Super Sonic. Always a classic.

 

Fleetway Super Sonic versus Super Scourge. While loads of folks like to jump the gun and shout Super Sonic due to personal bias, technical analysis is better.

 

Dr. Finitevus versus Dr. Zachary. Obligatory. Same comments as above.

 

Devil Doom versus Metal Overlord. Since the former's a repaint of the latter (even the lyrics of their boss themes share some verses), would at least be amusing.

 

Knuckles versus Shadow. As mentioned prior in the thread I'd be interested to see how this could turn out. Though Shadow appears to have advantages in every category, if he's heavily dependent on chaos energy Knuckles could potentially render such abilities null.

 

Bark versus Knuckles. Bark may be slow but he packs a wallop.

 

Those are just a few I could think of.

[Sega DogTagz]

Knuckles versus Shadow. As mentioned prior in the thread I'd be interested to see how this could turn out. Though Shadow appears to have advantages in every category, if he's heavily dependent on chaos energy Knuckles could potentially render such abilities null.

 

 

I think a few people threw out an idea that our lack of knowledge on how Sega Knux can utilize the Master Emerald really muddles that one and kills the discussion value.

 

If you want to talk Comic Knux then that would be a wash too since he is essentially Shadow on steroids. At his fullest potential he's essentially Enerjak who can (and has) out duked Shadz pretty handily.

 

 

 

If I were to throw some ideas out there, I think Vector and Espio could be an interesting Analysis. Vector is smarter than we give him credit for, but Espio's got the whole ninja thing going for him. Could be cool.

 

Anything Amy related would be a good assessment. Her stock has really taken a beating and she's fallen well behind Blaze and Rouge in the power rankings department.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[Tani Coyote]

I think a few people threw out an idea that our lack of knowledge on how Sega Knux can utilize the Master Emerald really muddles that one and kills the discussion value.

 

If you want to talk Comic Knux then that would be a wash too since he is essentially Shadow on steroids. At his fullest potential he's essentially Enerjak who can (and has) out duked Shadz pretty handily.

 

Fair points. I was always disappointed that Sonic and Knux get pretty awesome evil super forms but Shadow's was just blandly beaten in two hits by some fancharacter. For an ultimate life form, he sure seems to get gipped on the quasi-demigod status part. Super Scourge, Enerjak (the two Knuckles variants), Titan Tails... he gets nothing. Guess he's got a higher minimum and lower maximum or something.

 

Suppose it can be chalked up to the fact he's not part of the prophesised trinity (though that ignores the fact he wasn't created yet when that plot device was made) ... but I digress!

[costle]

Archie doesn't really like Shadow that much to be honest, he is one of the top tiers in the game verse but low key in the archie cannon?

 

LOL trying to nerf Shadow, even in Sonic 06 he doesn't have that inhibitor release limitation.

 

Shadow is truly a game breaker in abilites, and as far as I'm concern defeating Shadow takes PIS than logic IMO. Let me put it like this, if there was a fight between knuckles and shadow and the idea is Knuckles is more resileant and tougher than Shadow thats like saying  Kenpachi losing to Chad from bleach in a fight based on the same principles but it's totally ridiculous in hindsight since Shadow is more powerful, more brutal, and more overwhelming in power scaling than knuckles is.

[Tani Coyote]

Shadow was prominent in Archie for a while but his use has declined. As I recall the X Years Later timeline was Penders' invention. Penders being hugely biased towards Knuckles over everyone else (he's on the record saying he liked Knuckles more than Sonic as I recall), naturally Knuckles' daughter would trump anyone who went against her.

 

In the game continuity, from all we can see, it clearly looks like Shadow's superior to Knuckles. However, at the same time, he always ties with Sonic, Knuckles' classic rival. This is despite Shadow being able to match their signature quality of strength or speed, respectively, and having the other to match. So it sounds like all three are roughly equal in power.

 

Of course this is the problem comic books run into, as detailed by Stan Lee: when two heroes fight, you always have to have them tie somehow.

[Sega DogTagz]

Archie doesn't really like Shadow that much to be honest, he is one of the top tiers in the game verse but low key in the archie cannon?

 

Archie's got no love for Shadow? Since when?

 

I don't get where your getting your position from. Just because Shadow can't go toe to toe with the literal GODS of the Archie-verse, doesn't make him some "low key" scrub that the writers throw by the way-side. He's as much as a tank in the comics as he is in the games, if not more so thanks to his connection to the "chaos force" instead of being dependent on Chaos Emeralds.

[Darth InVaders]

Shadow's Chaos Spear and Chaos Control (although granted more of a Chaos Poof due to no Chaos Emerald) have always been an inherent part of his toolset, Chaos Emerald or otherwise. So your point is invalidated because Shadow is still only using his natural abilities.

Shadow cannot use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald to power it in the nearby vicinity - as Chaos Control is defined as the ability to use [the power of] the Chaos Emeralds to warp time and space

-"It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp" - Sonic in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake." - Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" - Shadow in Sonic 2006 cutscene

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gamechamp3000#p/c/7A0341B2BE90C555/15/bF9Vf_0jhkc

-"He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile on Sonic Channel (translated using Google Translation)

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/chara/shadow/index.html

-"Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SonicAdventure2US-09.jpg

-"Shadow is able to harness the power of the Chaos Emerald to warp time and space" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SA2BGC_US_manual_0005.jpg

- "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds." - Shadow profile in Sonic Heroes manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic_Heroes_US_XBOX_Page_4.jpg

-"Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." - Shadow profile in Sonic Rivals manual and on Rivals websites

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SRV_MAN_US_0006.jpg

http://www2.sega.com/gamesite/sonicrivals/

http://sonicrivals.sega-europe.com/en/

Shadow the Hedgehog has also shown that Shadow has a considerable amount of super strength, so Knuckles' strength isn't a real advantage.

Comparing Shadow's strength to Knuckles's strength is like comparing Knuckles's speed to Shadow's speed - Knuckles's strength obviously overshadows the Shadow's by HUGE margins, just as Shadow's game manual described:

"OVERTURN...

Some Items such as peeled away asphalt and trucks are too large to pick up, but can still be flipped over with effort from Shadow."

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:StTH_gc_us_manual_08.jpg

Bottom line, if Shadow and Knuckles got into an arm wrestling match, the result would indisputably end with Shadow KO'd in the bottom of a crater.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Darth InVaders

[Diogenes]

Shadow cannot use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald to power it in the nearby vicinity

Except for when he does, and no amount of vomiting links is going to change that.

[Sparky]

Shadow cannot use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald to power it in the nearby vicinity - as Chaos Control is defined as the ability to use [the power of] the Chaos Emeralds to warp time and space

 

Yet Shadow used Chaos Control (among other Chaos Abilities) in his opening and first level of 06.

 

And there were NO Chaos Emeralds near by at the time. 

Edited March 3, 2013 by tsz11

[Tani Coyote]

He also used them in the Riders trilogy as I remember, if in a limited form. As I recall that was when it was first noted by many fans that it was peculiar he had such talents without the need for an emerald. Makes sense though since you see him making use of Chaos Spear multiple times.

 

Kudos on the strength comparison find at least. It's really all we've got.

[DarkXZA]

Sonic Team is probably as confused as we are when it comes to what Shadow can and can't do, so there is no point arguing.