The Sonic Vs Thread.

[Tani Coyote]

Well, until they make official remarks (unlikely given their current style of simpler plots, something Shadow quickly tears apart when he shows up), we just have to try and piece together some sort of measure from the clusterfuck of a continuity.

 

When the answer is not known, take a look at what is known and theorise from there. Such is the nature of philosophy and such is fan speculation!

Edited March 3, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[DarkXZA]

I agree but it just feels like Sonic Team make stuff as they go without thinking, they stated more than once that Shadow needs at least an emerald in order to use Chaos Control but in gameplay he does it anyway without one.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I agree but it just feels like Sonic Team make stuff as they go without thinking, they stated more than once that Shadow needs at least an emerald in order to use Chaos Control but in gameplay he does it anyway without one.

Because he has Maria in his heart [/sonic Battle]

 

[/facepalm at the absurdity of the excuse]

 

[/brackets]

[Sparky]

The fact that lots of stuff concerning character abilities in the games are unexplained is one reason I look at ALL Continuities for characters skills.

[Tani Coyote]

I agree but it just feels like Sonic Team make stuff as they go without thinking, they stated more than once that Shadow needs at least an emerald in order to use Chaos Control but in gameplay he does it anyway without one.

 

Given the prevalence of Chaos Drives in the ARK (I'm assuming that Gerald himself invented them during his research), it's possible he is like a fake Chaos Emerald and has some natural abilities in his design. While Sega hasn't adopted the Archie concept of a Chaos Force, there are some similarities, as energy can be extracted and stored, or you can create knockoffs of the emeralds with weaker power.

 

Of course Shadow himself doubted the power of artificial emeralds so it makes one wonder.

[Darth InVaders]

Except for when he does, and no amount of vomiting links is going to change that.

Except I was not vomiting links, I was vomiting quotes straight from Sonic Team themselves (and linking to a recorded video, scanned image, or official website containing the quote for reference) - and no amount of misunderstandings or game play elements is going to change that

Yet Shadow used Chaos Control (among other Chaos Abilities) in his opening and first level of 06.

And there were NO Chaos Emeralds near by at the time.

The opening promo to Shadow's self titled game is not evidence of anything because it displays things from the course of the game that have not happened yet since the player has not even started the game yet (which means he could have any number of Emeralds on his person in his "hammerspace")

Shadow's first CG before his first level of 06 is weak evidence that is not enough to over come what Sonic Team has said many times for several reasons:

1 It contradicts what Sonic Team has said more recently (which is in line with what they have been saying), including a quote directly from Shadow later in 06 (I quoted it earlier: "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" which is the definition of Chaos Control)

2 Shadow did not call out "Chaos Control" leaving open the possibility that what happened was actually not supposed to be Chaos Control. What could it have meant to be? Perhaps a "flash step" with Shadow's super speed jet skates, or it could have been an error made by the animators (Sonic Team hired several third parties to produce the CG: Aoki Prod., Blur Studio, Inc., Shirogumi Inc., Foro Grafico Co. Ltd., and Gemba Inc. - there may have been a mistake in communication between Sonic Team and one or more of these companies). Yes I realize Chaos Control does not need to be called out to use the ability, that is why I called it a "possibility" in the italics.

Even the Sonic Battle line about Maria in his heart does not pan out because he does not say why he needed the Emerald (he was also hurt after all) and nothing that happened in the story afterward contradicts his need for Chaos Emeralds (they were all on Emerl, Shadow only fought Emerl from that point on, and physical contact is not needed to draw power from the Emeralds as evidenced by Black Doom's full power Chaos Control)

Bottom line, I've only heard one good piece of evidence (the Sonic06 CG) - but not only is it a one time thing, it is weak evidence at that because of how much doubt I can so easily throw on it. The quotes are written by Sonic Team themselves, that is where their true intent for the canon lies, and it constitutes the bulk of all evidence with far more instances and more recent uses.

[Diogenes]

2 Shadow did not call out "Chaos Control" leaving open the possibility that what happened was actually not supposed to be Chaos Control.

Stop lying.

[Sparky]

Except I was not vomiting links, I was vomiting quotes straight from Sonic Team themselves (and linking to a recorded video, scanned image, or official website containing the quote for reference) - and no amount of misunderstandings or game play elements is going to change that

The opening promo to Shadow's self titled game is not evidence of anything because it displays things from the course of the game that have not happened yet since the player has not even started the game yet (which means he could have any number of Emeralds on his person in his "hammerspace")

Shadow's first CG before his first level of 06 is weak evidence that is not enough to over come what Sonic Team has said many times for several reasons:

1 It contradicts what Sonic Team has said more recently (which is in line with what they have been saying), including a quote directly from Shadow later in 06 (I quoted it earlier: "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" which is the definition of Chaos Control)

2 Shadow did not call out "Chaos Control" leaving open the possibility that what happened was actually not supposed to be Chaos Control. What could it have meant to be? Perhaps a "flash step" with Shadow's super speed jet skates, or it could have been an error made by the animators (Sonic Team hired several third parties to produce the CG: Aoki Prod., Blur Studio, Inc., Shirogumi Inc., Foro Grafico Co. Ltd., and Gemba Inc. - there may have been a mistake in communication between Sonic Team and one or more of these companies). Yes I realize Chaos Control does not need to be called out to use the ability, that is why I called it a "possibility" in the italics.

Even the Sonic Battle line about Maria in his heart does not pan out because he does not say why he needed the Emerald (he was also hurt after all) and nothing that happened in the story afterward contradicts his need for Chaos Emeralds (they were all on Emerl, Shadow only fought Emerl from that point on, and physical contact is not needed to draw power from the Emeralds as evidenced by Black Doom's full power Chaos Control)

Bottom line, I've only heard one good piece of evidence (the Sonic06 CG) - but not only is it a one time thing, it is weak evidence at that because of how much doubt I can so easily throw on it. The quotes are written by Sonic Team themselves, that is where their true intent for the canon lies, and it constitutes the bulk of all evidence with far more instances and more recent uses.

I said nothing about Shadow the Hedgehog (game), I was talking about the first level and opening of his Story in Sonic 06. And his abilities in-game included Chaos Spear and Chaos Attack (which he used in the first level)

 

And that definately WAS Chaos Control in his opening. It had the same effect that it did in the CG opening of Shadow's game.

Edited March 3, 2013 by tsz11

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Hmmm lets reboot this a bit, lets start with something less contreversiouly. so Here is a new one, everybody help contribute facts and thoughts, so here we go, How about:
Tails VS Amy?

[Tani Coyote]

Hmmm lets reboot this a bit, lets start with something less contreversiouly. so Here is a new one, everybody help contribute facts and thoughts, so here we go, How about:

Tails VS Amy?

 

Hmm, would be interesting to see what could cause this sort of conflict.

 

Tails has his expertise and the ability to take off. Amy has her near-unstoppable rage.

 

I think Tails could come out on top simply by being able to go to the skies and fight from above. Anyone who studies modern warfare can tell you air superiority is often the make or breaker. He can just stay up there and presumably produce some weapon of sorts from hammerspace.

 

Of course there's also the chance Amy can use her hammer's recoil to propel herself up but if Tails is high enough it won't be of any consequence.

 

Knowing how tech-heavy Tails is sure he has a tranq gun laying around somewhere. Amy may take more shots than an elephant but she'll go down eventually.

 

Most likely incident is Sonic gets between them before they tear eachother apart.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Hmm, would be interesting to see what could cause this sort of conflict.

 

Tails has his expertise and the ability to take off. Amy has her near-unstoppable rage.

 

I think Tails could come out on top simply by being able to go to the skies and fight from above. Anyone who studies modern warfare can tell you air superiority is often the make or breaker. He can just stay up there and presumably produce some weapon of sorts from hammerspace.

 

Of course there's also the chance Amy can use her hammer's recoil to propel herself up but if Tails is high enough it won't be of any consequence.

 

Knowing how tech-heavy Tails is sure he has a tranq gun laying around somewhere. Amy may take more shots than an elephant but she'll go down eventually.

 

Most likely incident is Sonic gets between them before they tear eachother apart.

I say Amy goes Hammerbro and chucks her 5 million hammers she stores in hammerspace at Tails, eventually hitting him.

[Golden Helen]

Sonic VS Tails totally needs to happen. As in a fight. I forgot that Adventure already did the race scenario .

Edited March 10, 2013 by Golden Helen

[Tani Coyote]

I say Amy goes Hammerbro and chucks her 5 million hammers she stores in hammerspace at Tails, eventually hitting him.

 

Okay. THAT would be really amusing.

 

Sonic VS Tails totally needs to happen. As in a fight. I forgot that Adventure already did the race scenario .

 

Well the Archie strip did that, but it ended with Sonic conceding Tails was right about him treating him like a kid and such.

 

I think it'd depend on initiative. If Tails catches Sonic by surprise he can use his intellect gain the advantage.

 

Otherwise, Sonic just completely and utterly dominates. He's stronger and faster. If Tails cannot use his brilliance he'll have his two tailed rump handed to him on a golden ringed platter.

 

Presumably Tails could even the odds if he made some sort of chemical that would temporarily boost his speed.

 

Assuming it's like the avoided scenario in Sonic Colors, I think Sonic would just basically hold him into submission before casting him aside to get at some other threat. He won't do anything that could hurt him.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Hmmmm maybe we should go in a bit deeper, you guys know how there are some of those VS books, where they collect different stats, then have a side by side comparison of skills and stats. Well what if we collected them generaly for each character, then create a base page for each that has everything, then we select specific vs situations that have less stats, and focuses on those rellevant for those 2 characters.

 

Who know maybe we could even make something out of the final stuff. Of course we keep this up and going by getting some specific VS circumstances and build around that. So currently we are on Amy vs Tails, what if we did something more interesting next like say..... Shade VS Blaze, or Nack/Fang vs Rouge?

[Tani Coyote]

I'd approve of such a project if it were undertaken. Provided Sega could see some sort of financial gain we could probably convince them to make one.

 

Would be neat to see each character's strengths/weaknesses, especially if it's an obscure character like Shadow.

 

Having a canonical source would also definitely help with mapping out how these sorts of matches would go.

 

Now we just have to pray it doesn't go down the road of DBZ.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

I'd approve of such a project if it were undertaken. Provided Sega could see some sort of financial gain we could probably convince them to make one.

 

Would be neat to see each character's strengths/weaknesses, especially if it's an obscure character like Shadow.

 

Having a canonical source would also definitely help with mapping out how these sorts of matches would go.

 

Now we just have to pray it doesn't go down the road of DBZ.

Do you mean Shade? Shadow isnt obscure. and whats DBZ?

[Tani Coyote]

Do you mean Shade? Shadow isnt obscure.

 

Shadow's powers are obscure, however. Or at least his weaknesses. He has his speed, strength, intelligence, agelessness. We know all about his great powers, what about his Achilles' heels?

 

and whats DBZ?

 

Show where characters have power levels and progressively defeat eachother only for something much stronger to show up. No real strategy, just he who has the best power level wins. That's the short version or I'd be here all night.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Well, lets see Tails has standard speed, advanced flight, tail sweep attack, various gadgets(drone from tails adventure, arm cannon from battle, however that would be a special category that would boost others), whereas Amy has: below standard speed, enhanced jump height due to hammer, medium power, but fast hammer attack, hammer skip boost, and I am proably missing a couple things... so feel free to contribute, then we will put these together. When we have enough to put together some base profiles I will open up a new thread to store them. Now we do need more on Tails and amy, however What about Bark against Big?

 

both are heavy power, Big has more games for us to draw upon, however Bark has an easier to compile list of stats and abilities thanks to him being in sonic the fighters, just a thought could be interesting. lets try not to pile too many on at the same time, and lets try and compile some basic stats that we can start to balance, which we need to start with a couple of basic setups, so lets do Amy vs Tails, and Big Vs Bark, and use this to try and compile the basic stats, as we have an example of light power vs an utility class, and a heavy vs heavy. when we have the stats together, I will also do a basic Stats layout in the first post, however this is a good place to start.

[Tani Coyote]

whereas Amy has: below standard speed, enhanced jump height due to hammer, medium power, but fast hammer attack, hammer skip boost, and I am proably missing a couple things...

 

As I recall Amy had limited psychic powers with tarot cards and such in her early backstory, though that's been scrapped now. I know it comes up a fair bit in fanon so I assume there was some official basis for it.

 

Bark has an easier to compile list of stats and abilities thanks to him being in sonic the fighters, just a thought could be interesting. lets try not to pile too many on at the same time, and lets try and compile some basic stats that we can start to balance, which we need to start with a couple of basic setups, so lets do Amy vs Tails, and Big Vs Bark, and use this to try and compile the basic stats, as we have an example of light power vs an utility class, and a heavy vs heavy. when we have the stats together, I will also do a basic Stats layout in the first post, however this is a good place to start.

 

Bark is incredibly slow but very deadly to make up for it. If he gets the jump on you, you have no chance.

 

Big seems dense but he has his moments. As I recall he's one of those "too simpleminded to trick" folks, which is actually an advantage for avoiding traps.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

As I recall Amy had limited psychic powers with tarot cards and such in her early backstory, though that's been scrapped now. I know it comes up a fair bit in fanon so I assume there was some official basis for it.

 

 

Bark is incredibly slow but very deadly to make up for it. If he gets the jump on you, you have no chance.

 

Big seems dense but he has his moments. As I recall he's one of those "too simpleminded to trick" folks, which is actually an advantage for avoiding traps.

Bark is a A-10, and Big iseither a B-2 or an ME-262. you have slow power with some intelegence, and a lot to bear,and Big has more speed, and some ranged attacks, however is something of an inaccurate area supressor(his fishing rod has been shown to be decent radial attacks, however isnt exactly precision, and has less complicated instrumentation, so is hard to trick, but still a good attacker

Edited March 10, 2013 by Mandobardanjusik

[Jolt_TH]

Why don't we try and agree on a numerical number for stats (almost like Top Trumps!) that would make it easier for comparisons of the basic abilities. e.G sonic would have a 10 or 100 for Speed, Knuckles would have a 10 or so for strength/ power. And then any other powers could be specified after?

[Tani Coyote]

Why don't we try and agree on a numerical number for stats (almost like Top Trumps!) that would make it easier for comparisons of the basic abilities. e.G sonic would have a 10 or 100 for Speed, Knuckles would have a 10 or so for strength/ power. And then any other powers could be specified after?

 

That's actually a good idea, but I'm not sure if it'd be easy to get folks to agree on it all...

 

Sonic's obviously the fastest of all characters, with Knuckles among the strongest. We really need to go by what we see to rank appropriately. Knuckles breaks gems with ease, and diamond being the hardest substance, it's very plausible that he's got the power category. Shadow's greatest physical feat has been uprooting metal posts or flipping buses, so he's probably a second in the category.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Thats what I have been saying we need to figure out stats I think a 0-10 scale is best, slightly less accurate, but less messy and easier to figure out well. him here is a thought, why dont we split it up into subcategories, like: movement(speed, jump, secondary movement(flight, glide, boost, climb(vector and Knux have this traight of course ?)), Attack(melee(power, range), secondary(ranged, special), special(can be variously determined). note you can have multiple sub categories, and sub-sub-categories, and these are just suggestions, some characters may have variants of subcategories, like Say Big has multiple melee categories, and in the case of multiple attacks each one goes under the name of the main attack.

You can also have multople special attacks, note when it comes to categories, the sub areas may add to a overal value for the categorie. like you may go point for point for people int he same style area(like power vs power, or speed vs speed) as they will have similar stats

Edited March 10, 2013 by Mandobardanjusik

[Rally the Cheetah]

Are we assuming Amy can turn invisible or not in this fight cause I think that would give her a bit of an upper hand. Nothing like the element of surprise. And before anyone asks, "since when can she go invisible?" let me direct you to Sonic 06... Yeah... Not really sure how it happened either but she could in that game. The one real flaw was she still had a shadow so you could still find her if it was a sunny day and she wasn't in the shade.

But, seeing as she's not the most strategic of shorts, she might not use her invisibility to it's full potential and might very well blindly charge Tails while waving her hammer around like some kind of maniac. If that's the case, well, Tails would likely win because all he'd have to do is dodge her attacks and attack from the air. If she were smart and planned the fight ahead of time, however, she'd likely turn invisible and sneak up on Tails then bash him with her hammer close range. If she could pull that off then I think the fight would be hers because I don't see Tails as one who can take a strong blow especially if it was unexpected and to back of the head. 

Edit: Dang, I leave from typing the post for a few minutes to grab a bite to eat and a whole conversation goes on XD.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Rally the Cheetah

[Tani Coyote]

Thats what I have been saying we need to figure out stats I think a 0-10 scale is best, slightly less accurate, but less messy and easier to figure out well. him here is a thought, why dont we split it up into subcategories, like: movement(speed, jump, secondary movement(flight, glide, boost, climb(vector and Knux have this traight of course ?)), Attack(melee(power, range), secondary(ranged, special), special(can be variously determined). note you can have multiple sub categories, and sub-sub-categories, and these are just suggestions, some characters may have variants of subcategories, like Say Big has multiple melee categories, and in the case of multiple attacks each one goes under the name of the main attack.

You can also have multople special attacks, note when it comes to categories, the sub areas may add to a overal value for the categorie. like you may go point for point for people int he same style area(like power vs power, or speed vs speed) as they will have similar stats

 

Okay I'll try a few then.

 

Speed/Power/Intelligence/Special

 

Sonic - 10/3/5. While physically average/weak, he is able to use his speed to become a missile, making up for the apparent weakness. Intelligence is put as average because he's not a ditz yet isn't exactly brilliant either. His kind personality serves as a weakness; he could very easily be lured into a trap by someone pretending to be in need of help. Assuming close quarters his speed likely becomes a disadvantage; he probably can deal vicious kicks though due to all his years of toning.

 

Tails - 8/2/10. Tails is likely not as fast as Sonic but can nonetheless reach considerable speeds given his capacity to keep up in many cases. Most notable is his ingenuity and ability to fly giving him a special advantage over most opponents. No jokes about his infinite lives here.

 

Knuckles - 7/10/4. Probably not as fast as Tails but fast enough to tag along with Sonic. Obviously very strong; he's capable of shattering gems, and assuming the Master Emerald has a diamond-esque hardness that makes him pretty vicious. Intelligence is somewhat lacking, but not overly so. Could likely be lured into a trap.

 

Shadow - 10/8/7. He's able to match Sonic's speed, has considerable strength (if likely not as much as Knuckles), and seems fairly intelligent, able to operate machinery very quickly and also possessing a skill for manipulation. He has his full range of chaos capabilities, flight, immunity to illness and agelessness. His exact weaknesses are hard to determine due to lack of information from Sega; assuming his many abilities derive from Chaos Energy it's possible the Master Emerald could be used to cut him down to size. Not enough to go on.

 

Are we assuming Amy can turn invisible or not in this fight cause I think that would give her a bit of an upper hand. Nothing like the element of surprise. And before anyone asks, "since when can she go invisible?" let me direct you to Sonic 06... Yeah... Not really sure how it happened either but she could in that game. The one real flaw was she still had a shadow so you could still find her if it was a sunny day and she wasn't in the shade.

 

Obscure powers are the best powers.

 

But, seeing as she's not the most strategic of shorts, she might not use her invisibility to it's full potential and might very well blindly charge Tails while waving her hammer around like some kind of maniac. If that's the case, well, Tails would likely win because all he'd have to do is dodge her attacks and attack from the air. If she were smart and planned the fight ahead of time, however, she'd likely turn invisible and sneak up on Tails then bash him with her hammer close range. If she could pull that off then I think the fight would be hers because I don't see Tails as one who can take a strong blow especially if it was unexpected and to back of the head.

 

Really this is why I think Tails would emerge triumphant. He has air superiority... an asset in any conflict, big or small. If he's high enough she's not going to reach him no matter how much she smacks her hammer on the ground. He can get to her and she can't get to him. That's pretty much an automatic victory.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice