HEY GUYS LOOK AT THAT AWESOME-Oh it's gone.

[KHCast]

Sonic is a game about speed. We all know that. And while these games also have platforming as a big factor, the big catcher is his iconis running. Because of this iconic set pieces that are in games are pretty scarce. Yeah we have iconic levels and elements in the games, but not enough moments that make you go wow.

 

A pretty iconic moment not just in Sonic games in gaming is pretty obvious to start:

As well as looking cool, it also showed Sonic's gameplay features at work. Something that,I believe, should be used much more to create set pieces in these games. 

 

Interaction with the levels and there environments are pretty easy ways to point out.

 

But what are the problems with the way Sonic team try to make iconic pieces in levels now? Well I hate to say it but linearity. More specifically as of late....

 

Don't get me wrong, there are some awesome moments in some of the levels like the GUN truck in City Escape, or the Exploding chemical plant in Generations. But really all they do is just make you sit and watch a event, while your moving forward. Nothing exactly interesting. You know what would make these events much more interesting? actually doing things while these happen. Maybe alter the level design so you can interact with the exploding plant, like finding a new route if your not quick enough to escape, creating urgency and intensity. There are a few times where just running past something cool is okay, like the Clocktower set piece in Unleashed. Or the giant loop in Ocean Palace. Or in some cases, even boss battles! But the majority of set pieces I think shouldn't just be just watching something happen. I'd like to be a part of the memorable event. Not just watch it happen.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Aqua

[Diogenes]

The problem, I think, is that modern Sonic just isn't geared towards anything but running down hallways and simple, quick reaction/memorization obstacles. Even if a set piece did have a tangible effect, in what ways could the player interact with it? Hell, what kind of space can it even take place in, given how it's built entirely around high speed forward movement?

So my advice is basically the same as always. Sonic needs to slow down a bit, and he (and the levels) needs to be designed for more robust movement rather than entirely around one direction.

[Detective Shadzter]

Don't get me wrong, there are some awesome moments in some of the levels like the GUN truck in City Escape, or the Exploding chemical plant in Generations. But really all they do is just make you sit and watch a event, while your moving forward. Nothing exactly interesting. You know what would make these events much more interesting? actually doing things while these happen. Maybe alter the level design so you can interact with the exploding plant, like finding a new route if your not quick enough to escape, creating urgency and intensity. There are a few times where just running past something cool is okay, like the Clocktower set piece in Unleashed. Or the giant loop in Ocean Palace. Or in some cases, even boss battles! But the majority of set pieces I think shouldn't just be just watching something happen. I'd like to be a part of the memorable event. Not just watch it happen.

 

But that's what this innovative piece of game design is for

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

The failed quickstep experiment... key word there failed.

on the other hand I am toying around with these principals right now working on making a gens level, I will let you know how it turns out

[KHCast]

The problem, I think, is that modern Sonic just isn't geared towards anything but running down hallways and simple, quick reaction/memorization obstacles. Even if a set piece did have a tangible effect, in what ways could the player interact with it? Hell, what kind of space can it even take place in, given how it's built entirely around high speed forward movement?

So my advice is basically the same as always. Sonic needs to slow down a bit, and he (and the levels) needs to be designed for more robust movement rather than entirely around one direction.

I agree definitley.  I'm not saying to try and find a way to use the boost in these kind of ways. I'd like something new that could work with what I had stated before.

 

@Shadz NUUUUUUUUUUUUUU! The generations way of doing these was MUCH better. 

Edited February 26, 2013 by Aqua

[Autosaver]

I think a big problem is how Sonic's image has changed through out the years. TV shows, media, and games now show Sonic as some guy that is supposed to be speeding 300mph everywhere. I'm not exactly sure SEGA will ever step down from the Colors/Unleashed/Generations/Rush Sonic.

Edit: Also, how did the "QTE" experiment fail? QTE is now a standard in game, well improved upon. Colors just simplified it and Generations uses analog "QTE" with finishers.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Autosaver

[Kuzu]

It's sad that the series has become what it's mostly stereotyped as "SPEED, SPEED, SPEED" so yeah, I kinda miss being able to move in all eight directions or at least having the option on what I wanted to do in a level rather than being forced down a set path with only one or two directions.

 

Also, I can see the inevitable boost vs. spin dash debate coming, soo yeah, Im prepared for this shit.

[Diogenes]

Edit: Also, how did the "QTE" experiment fail? QTE is now a standard in game, well improved upon. Colors just simplified it and Generations uses analog "QTE" with finishers.

They're all pretty much shit.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

honestly, now I do see why sonic doesnt spin anymore, however I dont think that doesnt mean we shouldnt see any type of roll/spin, as there are a couple of characters who lend themselves to it if we ever get back multiple playble characters. For example, ever since KC Vector has always fit into a donut/wheel style roll, I mean it just makes sense, you got a big tough character, it should be able to have a move with decent momentum, however it will have terrible steering.... or at least thats my thought on it

[KHCast]

Actually now that I think about it, the spin dash could probably be used more effectively as a way of interacting with levels. Not trying to start anything, thats just my view.

[Soniman]

They're all pretty much shit.

 

I don't really how. It's not like me mashing the A button in Colors had me thinking "wow what an awful piece of game design". It was pretty much a innoffenseive event that just broke up the montomy a bit.

 

Then again, I really shouldn't be adding to another Modern Sonic argument considering that's where this topic seems to be headed already.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Soniman

[Blue Blood]

My biggest gripe with Sonic games nowadays is that every single thing is a set piece. The original games gave the player as much control as possible, while the games from SA1 onwards seemed to have made every effort to do the opposite. In the days of SA1 and SA2 it was more forgiveable due to the nature of the technology back then. However, when the entire game becomes what is essentially a drawn out set piece, (as is the case with all the new games) it looks cool and serves no other function. The occasional cinematic set piece works an absolute treat mind- I'm talking the whale chase and Unleashed clock tower.

 

 

One of the defining moments of SA1

 

It's usually not that cinematic though. It's cheap level design and boost working in tandem (though you can take the boost completely out of the equation and end up with just as much automation). Without going into that discussion, the boost limits the players movement considerably and does most actions automatically. So you mostly just sit back and watch Sonic win the game while you do nothing. Enemies are destroyed and quickly followed by springs and ramps which, being set pieces, just launch you to pre-determined positions from which you continue to do nothing. I implore you to try playing the games differently and see how much influence you have over much of Sonic's movement. There's just so many set pieces all over that you stop noticing. 

 

 

Can't be bothered to play? Don't worry, the game will do all the hard work for you.

 

The player is simply not involved enough in the gameplay now. Automation and set pieces are too much a mainstay. QTEs, instant reaction based gameplay and automated gameplay are in essence all set pieces. A few times a game and it's cool. When it's the entire game it's fucking boring.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Blue Blood

[Diogenes]

I don't really how. It's not like me mashing the A button in Colors had me thinking "wow what an awful piece of game design". It was pretty much a innoffenseive event that just broke up the montomy a bit.

It's not the most offensive thing in these games, but that doesn't mean it isn't shit. All 3 take you out of anything even resembling Sonic gameplay. Unleashed has you choosing routes (or between life and death) by inputting an arbitrary (and often random) sequence of buttons, which is basically the most boring thing ever. Colors neuters the challenge and risk of them entirely, but doesn't do a damn thing to make them fun. And Generations just has you watching/making Sonic pose for a while before you get back to actually playing the game.

And if a game needs such shitty QTEs to break up the monotony, they really, really need to reexamine their base gameplay, because it's obviously not keeping people's attention.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But that's what this innovative piece of game design is for

GTFO!

 

QTE's, even in awesome games like Metal Gear Rising, are among the worst ideas to ever come out of Gaming ever since it's become so mainstream. Even worse when you have to press more than one button for Unleashed or else you die in some places.

 

I may allow some games to slide with them the less intrusive they are, but overall, they're annoying to have a character do all the awesome things you could do when you're given more options than just a button press for an action in a cutscene.

Edited February 26, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Soniman]

It's not the most offensive thing in these games, but that doesn't mean it isn't shit. All 3 take you out of anything even resembling Sonic gameplay. Unleashed has you choosing routes (or between life and death) by inputting an arbitrary (and often random) sequence of buttons, which is basically the most boring thing ever. Colors neuters the challenge and risk of them entirely, but doesn't do a damn thing to make them fun. And Generations just has you watching/making Sonic pose for a while before you get back to actually playing the game.

And if a game needs such shitty QTEs to break up the monotony, they really, really need to reexamine their base gameplay, because it's obviously not keeping people's attention.

 

I still don't completley get how mashing "A" for 5 seconds is such a huge crime as far as it's concerend. Sonic does cool poses, you get some stylistic visuals and sounds (the announcer and ascending text scale of "cool" to "amazing", all in the span of five seconds in a (generally) 3 minute stage. What's the issue here again? It's essentially the same thing as in Mario Galaxy, when Mario transports via warp/launch stars and he flies through the sky for a few seconds showing off some nice visuals and what not.

 

I can see this kind of thing as an issue with Unleashed where it's not all that visual and is tiral and error. But with Colors? Not at all.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Soniman

[Diogenes]

I still don't completley get how mashing "A" for 5 seconds is such a huge crime as far as it's concerend.

They're not "a huge crime", they're just kind of shitty.

It's essentially the same thing as when in Mario Galaxy, when Mario transports via warp/launch stars he flies through the sky for a few seconds showing off some nice visuals and what not.

These aren't exactly the high point of the Galaxies either. But the bigger difference is that Sonic games have more of a focus on flow than Mario games. Mario can have some good flow when you know what you're doing, but it's built more for the player to stop and go as necessary. Sonic wants to keep moving, to preserve his speed, his energy, and QTEs break the flow for the sake of a crappy microgame.

[Straw Hat]

They're not "a huge crime", they're just kind of shitty.These aren't exactly the high point of the Galaxies either. But the bigger difference is that Sonic games have more of a focus on flow than Mario games. Mario can have some good flow when you know what you're doing, but it's built more for the player to stop and go as necessary. Sonic wants to keep moving, to preserve his speed, his energy, and QTEs break the flow for the sake of a crappy microgame.

If you don't mind me asking, what is it exactly that you want in 3D Sonic? I mean, I can tell you don't like the Modern Sonic stuff. Not sure how you feel about the Adventure gameplay; but what is your ideal 3D Sonic gameplay?

[KHCast]

Guys this argument is really starting to get off-topic. Could we perhaps get back to the main subject?

[Diogenes]

If you don't mind me asking, what is it exactly that you want in 3D Sonic? I mean, I can tell you don't like the Modern Sonic stuff. Not sure how you feel about the Adventure gameplay; but what is your ideal 3D Sonic gameplay?

Well, the Adventure gameplay was closer than the Modern gameplay. I want something that properly brings the Genesis Sonic mechanics into 3D; running, rolling, spindashing, etc. Add in the homing attack (with some adjustments) since hitting things in 3D is more difficult than in 2D, maybe the drift or something like it to help with turning. Make the levels reasonably wide and with plenty of curves to support wall and ceiling running; none of this flat ground square hallway bullshit. I imagine it being a bit like a skateboarding game crossed with a platformer with the physics cranked up to Impossible.

[Cyalume]

I'd really appreciate a rather whopping nerf to the boost function by this point. It's so spamable and so easy to refill that you can basically play almost an entire level with the button held down.  And since boost grants invincibility to monsters and some other hazards (You literally just bash them out of the way), it can be kinda game breaking.

I'll give a personal opinion here and say, I feel the controls were much tighter in the Adventure era than they are for the current crop of games. Generations felt far too slippery for my liking.

[Da Blu Hedgie]

You know I agree completely w/everyones opinion well I can't say everyones, but in my opinion yes Sonic needs to slow down. No more linearity, I hated Gens. and colors for those 2 reasons, they're not bad games, but gens. levels feel too tight and closed in, I had the same problem w/heroes and shadow too, oh and adventure 2, SADX did everything right in my opinion, lots of platforming and speed, but the game will reward you for both, it's one of the main reasons SADX is my all time favorite Sonic game. As for 06...eh it's 06 nuff said.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Manly man

[KHCast]

Okay guys, the main point of this topic was how should Sonic games now use set pieces and events. We have tons of gameplay topic's that focus around the 3D games, and if you can relate it to the main questions, that's great, but it really isn't looking like that...

[Straw Hat]

Well, the Adventure gameplay was closer than the Modern gameplay. I want something that properly brings the Genesis Sonic mechanics into 3D; running, rolling, spindashing, etc. Add in the homing attack (with some adjustments) since hitting things in 3D is more difficult than in 2D, maybe the drift or something like it to help with turning. Make the levels reasonably wide and with plenty of curves to support wall and ceiling running; none of this flat ground square hallway bullshit. I imagine it being a bit like a skateboarding game crossed with a platformer with the physics cranked up to Impossible.

I myself have been waiting for something like this as well...

But something of this nature would probably take Sonic Team years, seeing how the closest they got to this was Adventure.

Okay guys, the main point of this topic was how should Sonic games now use set pieces and events. We have tons of gameplay topic's that focus around the 3D games, and if you can relate it to the main questions, that's great, but it really isn't looking like that...

Oh, my bad... got a little carried away.

[Kuzu]

Okay guys, the main point of this topic was how should Sonic games now use set pieces and events. We have tons of gameplay topic's that focus around the 3D games, and if you can relate it to the main questions, that's great, but it really isn't looking like that...

 

Well..when you get down to it, the modern games are essentially a bunch of set pieces, which ties into it's gameplay. So gameplay discussion was inevitable.

[Soniman]

Well..when you get down to it, the modern games are essentially a bunch of set pieces, which ties into it's gameplay. So gameplay discussion was inevitable.

 

This may be a stupid question, but what exactly does that ential? As I don't really understand what you exactly mean by that.