On the Subject of Forum Games

[Tani Coyote]

Hello there! I’ve always wanted to GM a type of forum game over here at SSMB, but I’m well aware there’s a major hurdle to this. I’ve made this topic to try and argue for a change of sorts.

 

The rules specifically state:

 

“Make meaningful topics. Forum game threads, request threads and list threads are prone to spam so don't go making any of those bloody things.”

 

I can understand what the rules are referring to: “Rate the avatar above you” or “beat the picture above you” or “+1/-1” games are most definitely spammy. However, there are “games” of sorts that can actually require a fair bit of effort to play, and have surprising complexity that prevents spammy posts.

 

While there’s the likes of Mafia, for example, the type of game I’ve wanted to host here is certainly very, very different. It’s a geopolitical simulation; it goes by the name of “Imperium Offtopicum” at the CFC forums: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=446&order=desc There’s no shortage of games, and from a quick glance one can see a fair deal of effort and quality goes into most posts. As for posts that are spammy, well, those merely need be reported. Any hypothetical game would simply need to outline in its own rules that if players have nothing substantial to post, they simply should not post.

 

The game normally proceeds as follows:

 

1. A GM, or Game Moderator/Master, posts a ruleset. The ruleset can easily reach into pages long depending on the game, and it outlines such things as how players conduct themselves, economics of the game, and how nations should start.
2. Players post nation biographies. These include such things as a name, system of government, economic structure, and usually a history. They also declare the territory they rule over. Once enough players sign up as a country, the game begins.
3. When the actual game begins, a variety of things happen. Players submit orders (I would request this be done by PM to avoid spam; orders generally include such things as expenditures and secret attacks), expand into unclaimed territory, and conduct diplomacy. An exchange can very easily look like this:

 

“The Republic of Shadowstan does not like how Sonicia has recently claimed territories but a few miles from its borders. Please withdraw your claims, or we will be forced to dislodge you with force of arms. As we have the most powerful army on the planet, take our threats seriously.”

 

Sonicia could either back down or escalate things from this point, giving an inspirational speech about how it won’t be so easily bullied, or quietly withdraw its claims to avoid certain conflict. Either way, this “border dispute” is just one type of exchange. Countries regularly declare alliances, close/open borders to trade, or sometimes just create posts illustrating new economic/social policies. Players exist in a sandbox with each other, constantly replying to other nations’ actions; responses range from becoming steady allies to becoming fierce enemies.

 

Even in private substantial effort can be taken. Players with lots of time on their hands often send PMs to the GM detailing their plans and moves, such as a strategy to use to control the battlefield. As for step 4: well, there really isn’t one. Games usually end whenever the GM decides it is best for them to; this can happen after one player clearly dominates, or just when it looks like there’s not much left to do with it. Games generally last about two months, though there have been cases where they’ve lasted up to six.

 

As these games are hardly spammy (they can take considerable effort on the part of both players and GM alike due to the time involved and often post length), I don’t feel they should fall under the anti-spam rules. The main issue would presumably be interest; however, there is a large computer games forum, and presumably any who enjoy strategy games could probably be convinced to try out such a forum game.

 

Games are, as can be inferred, a mixture of both mechanics and roleplay. In between orders, players act as if they are in control of sovereign nations and pursue policies accordingly, foreign and domestic.

 

To give some examples:

 

A map. This was from my game Mobius: Total Chaos. It was not fully finished at the time.

 

The Parties to this Treaty, endeavouring to live in peace with all peoples and all governments, determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilization of their peoples, and seeking to promote stability and well-being in the African continent, do hereby resolve to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security. They therefore agree to this Pan-African Treaty :

Article 1
The Parties undertake to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the Union of Nations.

Article 2
The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them.

Article 3
In order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack.

Article 4
The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Africa shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the African continent.

Article 6
The Parties agree that the forcible overthrow of their sitting governments constitutes an attack against them, and consequently they agree to assist the Party or Parties so attacked in reinstating the deposed government in accordance with the provisions outlined in Article 3.

Article 7
This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the Parties which are members of the Union of Nations.

Article 8
Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

Article 9
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the African continent to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the Union of Guinea. The Government of the Union of Guinea will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

Article 10
This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as soon as possible with the Government of the Union of Guinea, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the majority of the signatories have been deposited and shall come into effect with respect to other States on the date of the deposit of their ratifications.

Article 11
After the Treaty has been in force for five years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the African continent, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the Union of Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 12
After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the Union of Guinea, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation.

Article 13
This Treaty shall be deposited in the archives of the Government of the Union of Guinea. Duly certified copies will be transmitted by that Government to the Governments of other signatories.

 

The above is an example of a treaty between several nations. Not all treaties are this large, but as was mentioned, a fair amount of effort can go into diplomacy.

 

Name: Marian Federation

 

Color: Dark red.

 

Language: Romance English - mostly English, but with a unified pronunciation scheme (Romance pronunciation like in Spanish) so its easier to learn

 

Capital: Rome

 

Ruler: President Marius Shadonus and Prime Minister Gaius Mobius.

 

Government: Semi-Presidential Republic with a Prime Minister AND President, each having a head of government and head of state role, respectively. Prime Minister elected by the unicameral legislature (Senate, made up of those given honors by the President and the individuals who are elected by the largest taxpayers, their numbers equal to those appointed by the Presidency) and has position ceremonially confirmed by the President, or vetoed, with 2/3 required to appoint the PM against the President's will. President is directly-elected by the qualified voting populace(veterans, their fathers, and their sons; the top 10% of taxpayers; and all those given the voting honor jointly by the President and Prime Minister). There is a Supreme Court, composed of one member appointed unanimously by the PM, one unanimously by the President, one by joint-agreement of the President and PM, one by honor Senators, one by wealthy Senators, and two by joint-agreement of the President and PM, with 3/5 approval by all sitting Senators. This makes for a total of seven Justices.

 

Population: 5.6 million

 

History: The Marian Federation was formed by the conquests of Marius, who unified the villages of the region and was promptly elected President - not a hard task to imagine, as he was King of his influential home town, and when the elections were first held, "bureaucratic delays" had made it so for the most part, only soldiers and their families loyal to him were the ones voting - of the unified Marian Federation. While formed by conquest, Marius has worked to craft an image of mutual interest and harmony between the formerly-independent cities and villages, hence the use of "Federation" rather than "Empire", and hence has extended possible membership in the government and military service to all citizens... though the system is fairly rigged so pro-Marians are often the only ones to be "approved" into the military, and thus, be able to vote.

 

Military: 452,000 soldiers. The Marian military is quite large because of the fact the nation was formed by war, and that new citizens are all too eager to join the ranks and be able to vote(a justification for politically-oriented rejections). Marius has sought to trim the fat from the military to allow more citizens to work on the economy - 8% of the population being soldiers obviously has impacted peaceful growth. The logic is that a stronger economy will allow a much better army to be built with superior training and technology.

 

Character: Mostly-neutral. Being small, the Federation currently has no interest in wars, and only attacks when the vital trade routes are threatened. The Marian Federation has been slowly building a navy to find good locations for outposts and trade partners along the Mediterranean coastline. As such, it is more eager to make friends than enemies, though as the bloody formation will show, it is still all too willing to fight when necessary to protect its interests.

 

Domestic Policies: Archconservative due to power being concentrated in the hands of the military oligarchy and the wealthy.

 

An example of a signup post is above. There really is no limit on what one can put in a signup.

 

As for some closing thoughts. Tensions between nations can and do arise, and so it will be important to stress that tension be kept solely IC (as with any ordinary roleplay). We’re all playing for fun, and yes, while our nations may trample each other in a surprise invasion, we should always be able to give our opponent a handshake and say “Good game.” This is traditional good sportsmanship, anyway.

 

As there are roleplays in the Misc. Works section, and this tends to involve a lot of writing (and art in cases), it could possibly go there, at least a Sonic-themed game. But I need to hear official thoughts first.

 

I am able to answer any other questions the staff (or anyone else) may have, but I figured I would take some time out of my day to try and argue for the inclusion of forum games (at least of this type) on the site. Thank you for your time, and please consider.

[Pelly <3's U]

You touched upon the interest thing in your post but I'd like to offer my take on things.

 

As someone who has run several forum games, the problem with this is they have a rather limited appeal. You have to have a set of players that are both willing to learn all the rules and then invest a suitable amount of time into playing the game. A Civilization themed forum game probably has a much higher appeal factor on a Civilization forum, but on a more casual discussion forum like this, they tend to not attract the audience needed to sustain interest in the game.

 

 

Forum activities that work well around here tend to be simple and open, allowing large numbers of people to participate with minimal barriers of entry.

 

From what I can see, you already have a huge rule set here, and then with things like 'pming the GM detailed strategies' or whatnot, you've already laid out that a game like this would require a lot of time and effort among the players. 

 

Another problem I see is the game lasting 2 months. We almost never host activities that are more than 1 to 2 weeks, and the reasoning behind this is interest rapidly declines and that's about what I've seen as a sustainable period. I have a pretty hard time conceptualizing a game running here for 2-6 months, unless like I've said you've found a very small group of people who are really into said game....and then this game is really only going to benefit them and not the forum as a whole.

 

So not to rain on your parade as I don't necessarily see anything inherently wrong in the idea itself, I can't see it actually panning out here.

[Tani Coyote]

Well actually that was something I forgot to touch upon - the large rulesets are actually a modern invention. When the games first started out, they were incredibly simple: it would take minutes of one's time to participate. There was simply a map and no real rules other than no powergaming and the obligatory etiquette.

As such, any game I'd host would have to be simple; I've seen games with large rulesets myself and I know they can be intimidating. Any game should have a simple ruleset so no one really feels barred from playing; it should be something they feel is about as time consuming as posting anything else. Few barriers to entry, very low difficulty curve, etc.

Between a simplistic ruleset (I've hosted both the barebones and extremely complex simulation games) and some sort of Sonic-esque theme (something I've always wanted to host actually), I think it'd be possible to make something viable. The userbase here all are fairly intelligent and eloquent, so I suspect any posts that were part of said game would actually be fairly high quality.

Of course, I've hosted games of about 30 or so people and they can quickly decline to about 20; it's a common problem for more people to sign up than actually end up consistently playing. I would definitely need to study the user base here to see what sort of game would run best; a game cannot stay afloat for long without a GM or without sufficient player interest. I'd need to create a title that players feel is both interesting yet not too time consuming.