Official Sonic 2006 topic

[StaticMania]

Eggman wasn't very egotistic or cocky in general at all before Colors. In Adventure he kept sonic alive SOLELY so that Sonic could collect the chaos emeralds for him, he attacked whenever he could in hopes to either defeat Sonic or get the chaos emeralds, not to gloat or shove it in his face at all. He only did this when the circumstances played in his favor. He never did anything at all JUST so he could gloat, ESPECIALLY keeping Sonic alive. Eggman tried to kill Sonic EVERY CHANCE HE GOT. That's not egotistic at all.

 

Who's to say that he had this luxury to begin with? And what edge would that provide even if he could? Like someone would trust a black shadow more than a mono-colorized hedgehog? I would find the mono-colorized hedgehog more trusting, I don't know about you.

Eggman was very clearly egotistical and cocky before Colors, he puts his name and face logo on everysingle thing that he creates, its completely shameless ego-boosting even Sonic comments on it...he's always one step ahead in Sa1, and he makes it very clear to the Heroes that they're pretty much doing all the hard work for him, in Sa2 he pretty much brushes off any situation of a stalemate with the enemy and handles the entire scenario where he has the upper hand with a slight smug tone.

 

Who's to say Mephiles didn't have that luxary to begin with? There's no definitive answer here, so that type of rhetorical is pretty much a dead counter. Not saying he would still be a complete shadow / silhouette of a character, but he could possibly change forms into the characters he saw necessary. That would be much more interesting in my opinion.

[Diogenes]

Eggman wasn't very egotistic or cocky in general at all before Colors.

I really can't understand how you could believe this unless you've never played any Sonic game before Colors. This is a guy that desecrates ancient statues to put his face on them and you're going to tell me he's not egotistic?

Erazor Djinn is just as generic as mephiles. He uses people to get what he wants, and he erases everything from the world they reside in. How exactly is that any different from mephiles' character?

Because he has actual motivations. He hated humanity for punishing him, and he wanted to destroy the story and escape it to escape the fate he had been written into. Whereas Mephiles wants to destroy everything because...???

Look at the general similarities between so many other 'good' villains,

Yes, let's:

• He's evil
• ...

yet he's still classified as bad. Look at Silver, many people hate him simply because he was in Sonic 06 itself. The guy acts exactly like knuckles in Sonic 3, and he gets flack for it just because he's in a game people don't like.

Knuckles doesn't act like a whiny, overpowered tool.

What more could he say but the every so frequent "I'm a god, you couldn't understand it anyway", wouldn't it make more sense for an unfathomable being to NOT make sense since he's of higher essence then mere mortals?

Except he walks and talks like a mortal, in every apparent aspect he thinks like a mortal. The only way you can pull off a character's motivations as "unfathomable" is if you make them outright Lovecraftian, more a force of nature than a character, which Mephiles is not. It's not a compelling motivation, it's a handwave to avoid admitting that he doesn't have one.

Also, I'd like to point out AGAIN, that one of the writers for this game wrote Sonic Adventure 2's plot, therefore they MUST have some shred of competence.

Then it's a shame they didn't demonstrate it in '06.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Oh, great...looks Iike I just got sucked in...

 

You can't be serious...

You really can't be serious...

 

How would that AT ALL make anything in the story any LESS complicated if he could do so? 

Because instead of Mephiles using A and B to get C, but needs to use D (only to reveal he could have gotten C by shooting a laser at it without using A and B ) it simplifies the story to "Mephiles is screwing with everyone for shits and giggles as he destroys the world." So there's less for us to bother figuring out.

 

By transforming into different forms of different people, he can mess with the other characters much easily. The whole point is that he's doing it just to be a nuisance to everyone as he seeks destruction of everything. So he could transform into Shadow to fool Silver, transform into Silver to fool Sonic, transform into Sonic to fool Elise, and so forth as he messes with people.

 

Heck you could even use it to explain his actions already done in the game.

Why did Mephiles send Silver after Sonic? Because he wanted to mess with them by having them in each other's way.

Why does Mephiles send Shadow into the future to see his sealed body? To mess with Shadow.

Why does Mephiles keep offering Shadow to join him? To mess with Shadow.

Why does he lie about the Iblis Trigger to Silver? To mess with Silver.

Why does he go through all this trouble to fuse with Solaris when he could have just saved himself the trouble and killed Sonic himself to unleash Iblis? Because he wanted to mess with people first.

 

Transforming would just add icing on the cake.

 

In short, all of this is simply because Mephiles just wanted to mess with people before he finally destroys everything. So instead of being this manipulator that goes through this complicated plan, he's just a manipulator with no set plan as he messes with people. It basically makes Mephiles a troll, and an effective troll at that. And an antagonist that is an effective troll is also an effective villain.

 

See the connection?

[Indigo Rush]

Of course, that still leaves the problem of making Sonic and Eggman completely uninvolved in the real threat. But that can be easily fixed - and by that I mean re-write the whole damn narrative from scratch.

 

Well, yeah.

 

The way the narrative is set up is to have one element that is raw power, and another element that is raw mind. Mephiles is pulling the strings throughout the game (if you could call it that) in order to connect him back to Iblis to become Solaris again. It actually kind of makes the appearance of Solaris a much bigger letdown when you realize that the fully revived god of dimensions  doesn't even speak or do anything outside of shooting lasers and rocks at you.

 

That's probably the worst of it all. Solaris is built up as the end of everything, and it's as if the conniving mind of Mephiles (as poorly written as it is) is replaced by a brainless monster of the week. Even Metal Overlord from Sonic Heroes had more heaviness to it, and that's pretty depressing.  

 

When you create a villain that's supposedly in control of time and space and "eats dimensions for lunch," you've written yourself into a wall where you need to figure out how to program a boss where they don't use their extradimensional knowledge to just snap Sonic and co. out of existence. The answer is they don't, and you get another Devil Doom, which is another Metal Overlord. It's made funnier as Elise talks about sensing a "powerful consciousness" within Solaris. They're trying to establish that this isn't just a dumbed down monster of the week by saying he's this dangerous god, and yet all he does is stay in one place, rotate, and throw stuff at you. 

 

The answer to the solution is to not make a villain that "overpowered" in the first place. The entire concept of having two halves making a whole falls apart when the whole is just another dumb beast in all practicality, no matter how much you claim that it's the most dangerous and smartest thing ever.  

 

Had they just stuck with Mephiles and developed him instead of making him just another part of a bigger plot, you'd have the potential for a fascinating villain. Eggman accidentally releases an evil force. A shapeshifter that seeks the Chaos Emeralds for ultimate power. Yes, it's been done in some form before and after, but if it was simply about Eggman and Mephiles instead of Eggman, Mephiles, Iblis and Solaris, there'd be more time to focus on that one baddie. It would give the writers much less of a headache trying to justify the need for all these other characters when they can just work on the one.

 

Granted, this would involve some serious re-tooling of the game as a whole, but very few people would argue that this game is fine the way it is. And even moreso, this is assuming we even want a villain like Mephiles in the first place. It's all hypothetical, really. At the very least, it would have been more compelling than what we got.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You know it's amazing that I can come up with a better sample for a ShTH fix-fic, yet I still wouldn't want to touch a Sonic 06 rewrite with a ten foot pole unless you paid me some good money.

 

Re-writing Sonic 06 sounds like a headache even for me. And even though we could simplify it, I'm not entirely sure whether I would even bother...

[Indigo Rush]

You know it's amazing that I can come up with a better sample for a ShTH fix-fic, yet I still wouldn't want to touch a Sonic 06 rewrite with a ten foot pole unless you paid me some good money.

 

Re-writing Sonic 06 sounds like a headache even for me. And even though we could simplify it, I'm not entirely sure whether I would even bother...

 

It could be as simple as starting from scratch, but using a few common elements.

 

The setting is fine in itself. An island based off of Venice. Okay.

A princess that has an evil god inside of her that will be released once she cries. Throw it out. Retool it.

An evil shapeshifter that seeks to reunite with the evil god. We threw out Iblis, so retool it. 

SIlver comes from...

 

 

...you're right.

 

I already gave up.

 

You're better off just writing something totally new, maybe incorporating some of the characters and settings. But the structure of '06 is just too much.

[FriendBot]

1) So if the game came up with "excuses" for every character to go through all of those levels than that's bad? You would rather that the game just MADE you do the level for no reason whatsoever as a farce to play it again? That's pretty weird... I know I would rather have a reason.

In fact, every sonic game from makes you play over several stages for no reason whatsoever, except for the standard, 'I gotta do this scenario'. I mean just look at Sonic Heroes.

Not just that either:

Sonic Adventure does that

Sonic Adventure 2 does that

Shadow Does that

Sonic Unleashed Does that

Sonic Colors Does that

Sonic Generations does that

and the list goes on

 

I wouldn't say that this is the best occurrence but it certainly isn't the worst either.

 

"Actually when I think about it how the hell did Omega got into the future in the first place to help Shadow fight Mephiles?" (and everything after in that paragraph)

How is that complicated to understand? Rouge goes into the past after being alone while Shadow is still in the future. She then finds and instructs Omega to Assist Shadow and bring him that Chaos Emerald. Since Omega already exists in the future and is in standby mode, he simply wakes up and finds Shadow.

Time travel can get MUCH worse than that though. Just look at the legend of Zelda. Have you SEEN their time travel?

 

2) I love Sonic Adventure 2 so much, but if many parts in Sonic 06 are badly written just for the sake of being "convenient with the plot" than this is terrible too (at least by their standards). People criticize Silver for doing the same thing while they find it completely tolerable in Sonic Adventure 2! WTF

 

May have been bad writing in my part but I meant that 06 sometimes made you go through a level that did not really do much in terms of plot. Like would it be a better idea if Sonic and Tails chased after the Egg Carrier through the Tornado rather than just going through Wave Ocean and decided to go back for some bullshit reason. If a level is being played for the sake of being played then that is a pretty shitty excuse but in games like the Adventures, it gave you a reason to go through that level like Sonic had to go through Emerald Coast to check on Tails and see if he is alright. Well in Shadow, every level is kind of irrelevant except the Final Story so yeah. In Heroes, each team goes through the same location by pure coincidence as well but they have different priorites, like Team Sonic are going to stop Eggman or Team Rose are just trying to find Froggy and Chocola. Well in Unleashed, each continent has a Gaia Temple so there is a reason to go to each continent, to restore the Emeralds of their power. In Colors, each planet had a generator to destroy so that planet can be freed of Eggman's control. Nobody didn't say that Heroes or Shadow had a good story as well but 06 just overcomplicated things while other stories can be just as bad by having a vague and shallow plot as well.

 

Well no, I have not played Legend of Zelda but why bring up a completely different franchise to prove that 06's plot isn't convulted as fuck when it is, are you running out of ways to defend it? Just wouldn't it be better if Shadow just had the Emerald in the first and then introduce Omega in the first place but nope Rouge has the Emerald for some fucking reason. Actually some people call bullshit on Sonic using Chaos Control as well but I gave a reason tothose arguements but people call bullshit on Silver since the story didn't told us if Silver had any connection to the Emeralds prior to meeting Mephiles so if Silver established a connection to the Emeralds when meeting Mephiles and learned Chaos Control in a matter of a day, then people will call bullshit on it. Sonic had established a connection many years ago so him using Chaos Control is not as bullshit as 06's case.

[Diogenes]

The first step in rewriting '06 is cutting the cast in half, seriously. Most of the characters have almost no reason for being involved (or literally none, in Knuckles' case) and just end up bloating the game because they wanted a big epic anniversary game.

Most of the other steps are also making massive cuts, because '06 is a bloated, fetid corpse with only a few small organs fresh enough to harvest.

[Indigo Rush]

None of which are brains or heart, most assuredly. 

 

I'd have cut it down to Sonic and Silver, really, in terms of protagonist focus. But that's just me. (I mean, if we're really going to use Silver)

[Salamander]

I honestly find the prospect of rewriting '06 to be incredibly exciting, but it would require such a comprehensive job.  It's not just a few tweaks that need making; you'd have to break it down into all of its constituent parts, decide which of them works and which doesn't, and then rebuild the whole thing from scratch.  Even some that do work might need ditching, if there are actually too many plot devices to handle in a satisfactory manner.  With a lot of the game then I can see what they were going for, but the plot basically collapses under its own sheer weight.  It's little wonder nothing Mephiles does makes much sense; as I said above, he has to be nonsensical just to keep the plot moving, because the plot sure has no reason to happen on its own.  That's a clear sign that Mephiles as he stands needs to be torn up and completely rewritten.

 

I just realised that the game has two and arguably three monsters of the week - Iblis, Mephiles, Solaris.  They need to limit it to one.  I'd cut Iblis entirely since its existence makes no sense, and also cut all time powers save for a very few instances of Chaos Emerald time-travel.  This then makes it easier to replace Iblis with Solaris and also turn Solaris into simply a superpowered Mephiles - make the Flames of Disaster not a wilful monster but simply a power source which can be harnessed with the Chaos Emeralds or something.  So already we have a much simpler plot - Mephiles is a villain (you can fill out the details later), and he wants to harness the Flames of Whatever to achieve god-like power (he'll lose his mind in the process because there had to be a catch), and in Silver's future he has achieved this.  With one villain, and not one who's hopping about in time all over the place, already things look a lot smoother.

[pppp]

In this case then, I agree with you. However, In Ansem's case, I was referring to his pivotal appearance in Kingdom Hearts exclusively. In this scenario, all he really wants to do is drown everything in darkness as far as the audience knew before Birth by Sleep and Dream Drop Distance were released. How does he fair as a good villain without the further explanation of BBS and DDD?

 

Well, if you read KH1's Ansem Reports you get the basic sense of him getting too obsessed with researching the heart and the heartless, eventually leading to disaster, which of course gets expanded upon in later games.

[DBZHedgy]

Eggman was very clearly egotistical and cocky before Colors, he puts his name and face logo on everysingle thing that he creates, its completely shameless ego-boosting even Sonic comments on it...he's always one step ahead in Sa1, and he makes it very clear to the Heroes that they're pretty much doing all the hard work for him, in Sa2 he pretty much brushes off any situation of a stalemate with the enemy and handles the entire scenario where he has the upper hand with a slight smug tone.

 

Who's to say Mephiles didn't have that luxary to begin with? There's no definitive answer here, so that type of rhetorical is pretty much a dead counter. Not saying he would still be a complete shadow / silhouette of a character, but he could possibly change forms into the characters he saw necessary. That would be much more interesting in my opinion.

I understand this, HOWEVER, he isn't completely absorbed by his egotism that he would go out of his way to make things EASIER for Sonic, JUST for the challenge. 

That's like saying anyone who writes their name on all of their drawings is self centered.

 

Exactly! He isn't so consumed by his "egotism" to make it easier for his rivals, Eggman succeeded back then BECAUSE he wasn't absorbed by it. He had it, but it was a little nitch instead of a full blown flaw. This in turn causes his downfall. Back then, He never lost, he always outsmarted the heroes, and his plans succeeded as such. It isn't so much as Egotism, but rather a distanced admiration for himself.

 

A better representation of the question would be, WHY? Why would he go back to that standard from? Why would he bother to change into something else. What would that do? How would that change the current scenario? He is just as deceiving in his Shadow the hedgehog form as any other. It's just unnecessary. Ironic considering many people already see many of his other actions unnecessary as well. You want his plan to be even more convoluted than it already is?

 

I really can't understand how you could believe this unless you've never played any Sonic game before Colors. This is a guy that desecrates ancient statues to put his face on them and you're going to tell me he's not egotistic?

What are you talking about? Eggman didn't desecrate anything in the Classics, Adventure 1, 2, Heroes and Shadow.

I don't recall Eggman destroying ANY relics of chaos AT ALL, he simply set up base there and read through the ancient texts or whatever. "OOOH YES, It's just as the stone tablets predicted" yet the room with all of the stone tablets and artifacts that Sonic found at the end of Lost World in Sonic Adventure remained intact. 

He doesn't desecrate anything ancient for that matter...

 

Because he has actual motivations. He hated humanity for punishing him, and he wanted to destroy the story and escape it to escape the fate he had been written into. Whereas Mephiles wants to destroy everything because...???

Because That's his entire purpose. The Solaris Project was made to replicate the findings and historical preaching of Solaris. A time god. 

And even if that isn't the case, who's to say that Mephiles was going to do anything bad before he was sealed in the sceptar? All of the antics he pursues is AFTER he's released accidentally by Shadow, Rouge and Eggman. This whole thing may very well be a revenge attempt. 

 

Knuckles doesn't act like a whiny, overpowered tool.

He may not be whiny, but he surely is overpowered and is a tool. Being scarred with the horrific fate of having your entire future ripped to shreds would make any CARING person willing to save it. 

Knuckles doesn't even have ample justification for why he would trust Eggman, in silver's case, as far as he knows things cannot get worse, knuckles just rushes in bullheadedly without even thinking about it and harasses Sonic with no real reason whatsoever. 

 

Still anyone who would have to deal with such traumatic experiences would have to be that whiny, if not that a cold-hearted stoic who takes no nonsense for no one at all.

 

 

Except he walks and talks like a mortal, in every apparent aspect he thinks like a mortal. The only way you can pull off a character's motivations as "unfathomable" is if you make them outright Lovecraftian, more a force of nature than a character, which Mephiles is not. It's not a compelling motivation, it's a handwave to avoid admitting that he doesn't have one.

No... he doesn't...

He teleports through time casually, as if he IS walking, opening up that sphere of time travel whenever he sees fit. He knows of the fate of everyone he confronts in the game, and he lets them know that. Shadow in particular. 

 

 

Because instead of Mephiles using A and B to get C, but needs to use D (only to reveal he could have gotten C by shooting a laser at it without using A and B ) it simplifies the story to "Mephiles is screwing with everyone for shits and giggles as he destroys the world." So there's less for us to bother figuring out.

 

By transforming into different forms of different people, he can mess with the other characters much easily. The whole point is that he's doing it just to be a nuisance to everyone as he seeks destruction of everything. So he could transform into Shadow to fool Silver, transform into Silver to fool Sonic, transform into Sonic to fool Elise, and so forth as he messes with people.

 

Heck you could even use it to explain his actions already done in the game.

Why did Mephiles send Silver after Sonic? Because he wanted to mess with them by having them in each other's way.

Why does Mephiles send Shadow into the future to see his sealed body? To mess with Shadow.

Why does Mephiles keep offering Shadow to join him? To mess with Shadow.

Why does he lie about the Iblis Trigger to Silver? To mess with Silver.

Why does he go through all this trouble to fuse with Solaris when he could have just saved himself the trouble and killed Sonic himself to unleash Iblis? Because he wanted to mess with people first.

 

Transforming would just add icing on the cake.

 

In short, all of this is simply because Mephiles just wanted to mess with people before he finally destroys everything. So instead of being this manipulator that goes through this complicated plan, he's just a manipulator with no set plan as he messes with people. It basically makes Mephiles a troll, and an effective troll at that. And an antagonist that is an effective troll is also an effective villain.

 

See the connection?

(I was referring to Mephiles Shapeshifting just in case you were confused)

That just overcomplicates things though. Whether or not he COULD shapeshift, the gang of heroes would STILL find out the truth about him and proceed to stop him. It's just unnecessary. 

 

and all that other stuff about him just doing it for destruction and junk, I already pointed that out. 

Now I'm debating why this makes him a credible villain instead of a stupid one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I wish i can say more other then I like playing as Sonic and Silver more then the other characters, I started out with them being my favoerite characters. And they were alot of fun to play as I like platforming to.

[Diogenes]

Back then, He never lost, he always outsmarted the heroes, and his plans succeeded as such.

What.

What are you talking about? Eggman didn't desecrate anything in the Classics, Adventure 1, 2, Heroes and Shadow.

Yes he did. Hacking the heads off ancient statues and replacing them with your own is about as egotistical as it gets.

And even if that isn't the case, who's to say that Mephiles was going to do anything bad before he was sealed in the sceptar? All of the antics he pursues is AFTER he's released accidentally by Shadow, Rouge and Eggman. This whole thing may very well be a revenge attempt.

Hey, you know what might have cleared this up?

If they had given him any kind of coherent motivation.

Being scarred with the horrific fate of having your entire future ripped to shreds would make any CARING person willing to save it.

What does this have to do with anything? Off topic, -10 points.

No... he doesn't...

Yes. He does.

[FireBird75]

On the subject of remaking Sonic 06, I'd actually would've liked it if they just made it 3D version of Sonic 1.

Change Wave Ocean into Green Hill Zone

Kingdom Valley into Marble Zone

Add a some Spring Yard, Labyrinth, & Star Light Zones

Change Aquatic Base into Scrap Brain Zone

Give us a boss and then a Super Sonic in Space final boss

Special Stages? Nope not necessary.  Beat a zone's boss, get chaos emerald.  Sonic would have one at the start and he'd have to earn the other six.  Oh, and having that one emerald would allow Sonic to turn Super temporarily after collecting 100 rings (a SS icon would appear on the screen you'd have to activate SS via triangle/Y button)

 

Plot?

Soleanna is now Neo South Island.  Sonic is not trying free small animals this time.  Instead he's trying to stop Eggman from harvesting Neo South Island's chaos drives, which will be powering Eggman's mechanical forces (yeah that idea can stay), in order to prevent Egghead from using them (the chaos drives) to power his Egg Carrier's Giant Laser Cannon with enough force to wipe out NSI's established civilization and build Eggmanland upon its ruins.

 

For DLC, just have some of Sonic friend's as optional playable characters.

 

Done.

[DBZHedgy]

Well, yeah.

 

The way the narrative is set up is to have one element that is raw power, and another element that is rawmind. Mephiles is pulling the strings throughout the game (if you could call it that) in order to connect him back to Iblis to become Solaris again. It actually kind of makes the appearance of Solaris a much bigger letdown when you realize that the fully revived god of dimensions  doesn't even speak or do anything outside of shooting lasers and rocks at you.

 

That's probably the worst of it all. Solaris is built up as the end of everything, and it's as if the conniving mind of Mephiles (as poorly written as it is) is replaced by a brainless monster of the week. Even Metal Overlord from Sonic Heroes had more heaviness to it, and that's pretty depressing.  

 

When you create a villain that's supposedly in control of time and space and "eats dimensions for lunch," you've written yourself into a wall where you need to figure out how to program a boss where they don't use their extradimensional knowledge to just snap Sonic and co. out of existence. The answer is they don't, and you get another Devil Doom, which is another Metal Overlord. It's made funnier as Elise talks about sensing a "powerful consciousness" within Solaris. They're trying to establish that this isn't just a dumbed down monster of the week by saying he's this dangerous god, and yet all he does is stay in one place, rotate, and throw stuff at you. 

 

The answer to the solution is to not make a villain that "overpowered" in the first place. The entire concept of having two halves making a whole falls apart when the whole is just another dumb beast in all practicality, no matter how much you claim that it's the most dangerous and smartest thing ever.  

I'd like to point out that Solaris Consumes Time.

Something Iblis himself could not do. Therefore the time control must come from Mephiles Perception of Solaris, while the Consumption or destruction of it was due to Iblis' Half. Not only that, but Mephiles was also capable of being present in several different Time periods at once, and Solaris Inherits that as well. 

 

Are you seriously Nit Picking as to him Not Talking now? Wow... that's such a travesty that he cannot talk of all things. He can warp reality itself, consume dimensions, exist in all periods of time, yet your worried about him TALKING? Seriously?

 

Built up? When? Solaris is only mentioned by Eggman wishing to abuse it's power, and of the Duke of Soleanna, for it's origin. No where else. It isn't built up at all. The game just mentions it to hint at the final ending, just like that of Chaos in Sonic Adventure. It's a surprise ending, like that of Adventure and Adventure 2's final endings.

 

So wait... Mephiles is already dumb (from your standpoint at least), yet your disappointed when his fused form doesn't talk? You make no sense. Your tripping over your own statements. How could Solaris be anything more than a generic monster if Mephiles was already stupid to begin with? Your Nullifying your first point of Mephiles being stupid, to go on to insult Solaris? If Mephiles was never smart to begin with (which is what you've been saying this entire time) than it would be of no surprise that Solaris WOULD BE dumb.

 

There are very few cases that master the "god over everything that knows all" final boss correctly. Solaris is one of these cases.

I'm quite sure that any scenario that could anyone could come up with would still have various flaws, simply because Time is a doubled edged sword.

 

So, basically, he's dumb because he doesn't talk? He doesn't even roar, he's almost completely ambient.

 

May have been bad writing in my part but I meant that 06 sometimes made you go through a level that did not really do much in terms of plot. Like would it be a better idea if Sonic and Tails chased after the Egg Carrier through the Tornado rather than just going through Wave Ocean and decided to go back for some bullshit reason. If a level is being played for the sake of being played then that is a pretty shitty excuse but in games like the Adventures, it gave you a reason to go through that level like Sonic had to go through Emerald Coast to check on Tails and see if he is alright. Well in Shadow, every level is kind of irrelevant except the Final Story so yeah. In Heroes, each team goes through the same location by pure coincidence as well but they have different priorites, like Team Sonic are going to stop Eggman or Team Rose are just trying to find Froggy and Chocola. Well in Unleashed, each continent has a Gaia Temple so there is a reason to go to each continent, to restore the Emeralds of their power. In Colors, each planet had a generator to destroy so that planet can be freed of Eggman's control. Nobody didn't say that Heroes or Shadow had a good story as well but 06 just overcomplicated things while other stories can be just as bad by having a vague and shallow plot as well.

 

Well no, I have not played Legend of Zelda but why bring up a completely different franchise to prove that 06's plot isn't convulted as fuck when it is, are you running out of ways to defend it? Just wouldn't it be better if Shadow just had the Emerald in the first and then introduce Omega in the first place but nope Rouge has the Emerald for some fucking reason. Actually some people call bullshit on Sonic using Chaos Control as well but I gave a reason tothose arguements but people call bullshit on Silver since the story didn't told us if Silver had any connection to the Emeralds prior to meeting Mephiles so if Silver established a connection to the Emeralds when meeting Mephiles and learned Chaos Control in a matter of a day, then people will call bullshit on it. Sonic had established a connection many years ago so him using Chaos Control is not as bullshit as 06's case.

Just Like Sonic Heroes, They go through the same level in the same order to find all 4 of the different things they need. 

Just like Sonic Colors, Sonic is running around the same stage OVER AND OVER until he finds the generator, this becomes ever moreso unnecessary when Tails is able to track down the generators yet Sonic STILL wanders around aimlessely to find the generator. 

Sonic Adventure 2 has an exclusive case. This case is when Shadow and the crew Pursue Tails for absolutely No reason. Rouge first follows Tails, then Shadow pursues him and loses him to no aveil whatsoever. The HD version of Unleashed has you go through Empire City for no reason whatsoever. There isn't even a temple there, yet you must complete the level because the level needs you to. Generations makes you go through the level as BOTH sonics for no reason whatsoever. Those seem like pretty dumb reasons to MAKE a level playable, yet 06 gets all the flack. Told ya, Nit Picks.

 

Because of the Staggering Success that the games AND THEIR STORIES have in general. Regardless of the Plot Holes in them. 

 

Your missing the point, Sonic and Silver immediately learning Chaos Control was shoehorned into the plot for the sake of convenience to keep things flowing. I find it completely natural and acceptable in both cases as said prior, but they were STILL shoehorned into the plot with no real stance.

And Sonic's 'connection' with the chaos emeralds isn't the reason he could use chaos control. In Fact, the game doesn't even supply a reason for him being able to use it in adventure 2. He just DOES for the sake of convenience. If he did have a 'connection' then they would've mentioned it after Sonic used it, BUT THEY DIDN'T.

[FriendBot]

Just Like Sonic Heroes, They go through the same level in the same order to find all 4 of the different things they need. 

Just like Sonic Colors, Sonic is running around the same stage OVER AND OVER until he finds the generator, this becomes ever moreso unnecessary when Tails is able to track down the generators yet Sonic STILL wanders around aimlessely to find the generator. 

Sonic Adventure 2 has an exclusive case. This case is when Shadow and the crew Pursue Tails for absolutely No reason. Rouge first follows Tails, then Shadow pursues him and loses him to no aveil whatsoever. The HD version of Unleashed has you go through Empire City for no reason whatsoever. There isn't even a temple there, yet you must complete the level because the level needs you to. Generations makes you go through the level as BOTH sonics for no reason whatsoever. Those seem like pretty dumb reasons to MAKE a level playable, yet 06 gets all the flack. Told ya, Nit Picks.

 

Because of the Staggering Success that the games AND THEIR STORIES have in general. Regardless of the Plot Holes in them. 

 

Your missing the point, Sonic and Silver immediately learning Chaos Control was shoehorned into the plot for the sake of convenience to keep things flowing. I find it completely natural and acceptable in both cases as said prior, but they were STILL shoehorned into the plot with no real stance.

And Sonic's 'connection' with the chaos emeralds isn't the reason he could use chaos control. In Fact, the game doesn't even supply a reason for him being able to use it in adventure 2. He just DOES for the sake of convenience. If he did have a 'connection' then they would've mentioned it after Sonic used it, BUT THEY DIDN'T.

 

Yeah, the stories for said games weren't godly written either but the irrelevance of the stages in plot is just the tip of the huge iceberg of the many fuckups 06 made in its plot. Last time I remembered Heroes and Unleashed was rather mixed in terms of reception but that's besides the point. I'm pretty sure it would've been a given if Sonic had a connection to the Emeralds, I mean wouldn't it be stupid for Sonic to say "I must've used Chaos Control due to my previous uses of the Emeralds multiple times before?", I'm pretty sure it not's really needed to make that point. Speaking of shoehorning, Knuckles and Blaze had no actual purpose to the plot for the sake of being there. I mean yeah Blaze sacrifices herself at the end but she didn't really do jack shit in the game and Knuckles had no fucking purpose at all!

[DBZHedgy]

Well, if you read KH1's Ansem Reports you get the basic sense of him getting too obsessed with researching the heart and the heartless, eventually leading to disaster, which of course gets expanded upon in later games.

But this evidence doesn't TELL us why he wants the world to drown in darkness. This leads me to think that he has no real purpose for drowning the world in darkness at the time. And wasn't Xehanort's other plan Ansem's backup plan in case Ansem's plan failed? That would mean that Ansem would still very much try to make the world(s) drown in darkness, hence me titling him as a "destroy everything" villain.

 

 

Yes he did. Hacking the heads off ancient statues and replacing them with your own is about as egotistical as it gets.

Actually, That's eggman's base. Those weren't Ancient Statues. In fact, the introduction of that level in story mode has Doctor Robotnik making snide remarks as to how GUN cannot penetrate/infiltrate his base.

 

Hey, you know what might have cleared this up?

If they had given him any kind of coherent motivation.

They already did....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT73Dz3evPk&hd=1

Skip to 4:00 

"Don't Try to deceive me, you have no desire for revenge. You only crave destruction"

 

That seems like motive in and of itself.

 

What does this have to do with anything? Off topic, -10 points.

Silver vs Knuckles. How did you forget that quickly? You were the one who pointed it out that Knuckles wasn't like Silver and I proceeded to further elaborate on why I believe so.

 

Yes. He does.

No. He doesn't.

Yeah, the stories for said games weren't godly written either but the irrelevance of the stages in plot is just the tip of the huge iceberg of the many fuckups 06 made in its plot. Last time I remembered Heroes and Unleashed was rather mixed in terms of reception but that's besides the point. I'm pretty sure it would've been a given if Sonic had a connection to the Emeralds, I mean wouldn't it be stupid for Sonic to say "I must've used Chaos Control due to my previous uses of the Emeralds multiple times before?", I'm pretty sure it not's really needed to make that point. Speaking of shoehorning, Knuckles and Blaze had no actual purpose to the plot for the sake of being there. I mean yeah Blaze sacrifices herself at the end but she didn't really do jack shit in the game and Knuckles had no fucking purpose at all!

Please enlist these numerous plot holes

 

Again, they didn't explain WHY sonic was able to use it so it leaves that case in open field. 

 

What are you talking about? Knuckles was there to convey the message that Eggman had him pass onto Sonic. It's a minor role sure, but it's important. Without it, Sonic wouldn't be able to find Elise and Eggman. 

As for Blaze, I much rather prefer her appearence here than many other appearences afterwards in which she's there for no reason. Although she has no reason being here, at least she SERVES A PURPOSE, instead of standing there (Generations) or conveying useless sidemissions (Colors DS), with no real explanation for being there whatsoever. So of all of the plots to shoehorn her into this is clearly the best occasion.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Oh wow, just like Sonic. Would ya look at that.

A title is a title, so whatevs.

 

Yeah because you know, Sonic has always been known as the ultimate lifeform... 

 

But yeah now you mention it, this goes to show just how naff Meph is. Sonic beats shadow, Sonic isn't the ultimate lifeform, according to you pro Sonic 06's, Meph is bad ass because he defeats/delays shadow...

 

*insert a list of un god like characters who have also beaten shadow*

 

Yes he did. Hacking the heads off ancient statues and replacing them with your own is about as egotistical as it gets.

 

Not only that, he does this in the classics too. Biggest example of this would be Sonic CD where the angel statue changes to a statue of Eggman that throws bombs at you. 

 

In Sonic 1, Scrap Brain Zone Act 3 more or less shows the consequences of Eggman's actions.

[Diogenes]

Actually, That's eggman's base. Those weren't Ancient Statues. In fact, the introduction of that level in story mode has Doctor Robotnik making snide remarks as to how GUN cannot penetrate/infiltrate his base.

The introduction that clearly shows the unmodified statues, yes.

[RustyRick]

I won't ever really consider this game good by any means, but if there was one thing I did like was the somewhat more realistic-looking Eggman, but only in how utterly bizarre it was. I mean Eggman's whole appeal lies in his comical anatomy and facial features, and without those save for his beer belly, he doesn't come across as very unique, save for that one instance where you could spot his eyes during the scene where he sends Sonic, Tails and Knuckles to the future.

[Junko]

None of which are brains or heart, most assuredly. 

 

I'd have cut it down to Sonic and Silver, really, in terms of protagonist focus. But that's just me. (I mean, if we're really going to use Silver)

But without Shadow, surely Mephiles wouldn't be back? (Sorry if this was already mentioned, just jumping in now)

[Indigo Rush]

Antagonists were not elaborated. As for protagonists, I was referring to those that would be playable. 

[StaticMania]

 

I understand this, HOWEVER, he isn't completely absorbed by his egotism that he would go out of his way to make things EASIER for Sonic, JUST for the challenge. 

That's like saying anyone who writes their name on all of their drawings is self centered.

 

Exactly! He isn't so consumed by his "egotism" to make it easier for his rivals, Eggman succeeded back then BECAUSE he wasn't absorbed by it. He had it, but it was a little nitch instead of a full blown flaw. This in turn causes his downfall. Back then, He never lost, he always outsmarted the heroes, and his plans succeeded as such. It isn't so much as Egotism, but rather a distanced admiration for himself.

 

A better representation of the question would be, WHY? Why would he go back to that standard from? Why would he bother to change into something else. What would that do? How would that change the current scenario? He is just as deceiving in his Shadow the hedgehog form as any other. It's just unnecessary. Ironic considering many people already see many of his other actions unnecessary as well. You want his plan to be even more convoluted than it already is?

 

He may not be whiny, but he surely is overpowered and is a tool. Being scarred with the horrific fate of having your entire future ripped to shreds would make any CARING person willing to save it. 

Knuckles doesn't even have ample justification for why he would trust Eggman, in silver's case, as far as he knows things cannot get worse, knuckles just rushes in bullheadedly without even thinking about it and harasses Sonic with no real reason whatsoever. 

Eggman doesn't make things easier for Sonic by any means other than arrogance...his ego is what causes the impending failure of his plans...because he's so confident that there isn't a hitch, he won't really think about any possible consequences of his actions before he actually commits said actions.

 

Mephistopheles isn't deceiving at all in the actual story, Silver is the only one who he actually deceives....and Silver is an idiot to be fooled by what is pretty much Mephiles holding up an image of Sonic and saying he did it. Taking different forms gives him the possibility to actually interact with different characters and actually have them be his little puppets....actually controlling them all through the entire story, so that the lead up to where Elise is crying and Iblis being released is caused by actually good writing and not having Mephiles appear out of no where next to Sonic and Elise and warping all the chaos emeralds from no where with NO reason as to why.

 

Knuckles has a very reasonable reason to trust Eggman...Knuckles in Sonic 3 is a naive island Guardian. He has had no real interaction with anyone other than the native animals that can't even talk. Knuckles sees that Eggman and his giant space station fell from the sky and that's all he knows, he doesn't know why or how. Eggman appeals to Knuckles and convinces him that Sonic and Tails are the bad guys who did that to him and are coming to steal the Master Emerald from Angel Island...what does Knuckles gain knowledge of soon after that? He soon knows that Sonic is using the power of the Chaos Emeralds and are coming straight towards Angel Island. So why would Knuckles NOT believe Eggman after that?

[Adorkable]

I'm so lost in this topic right now it's not even funny.

 

Can someone kind of tell me what's going on in a nutshell? ^^"