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thedarkknight

Official Sonic 2006 topic

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Except, this is yet another example of how stunningly incompetent '06 is. The line is poorly translated. The word she uses can mean either "blue" or "naive". She's not remembering Sonic, she's misinterpreting Silver's words and wondering if he's the one who ends up being responsible for everything.

Which he kind of is, due to being a gullible doofus.

 

Hmm, you do raise a fair point there, dude. 

 

If it weren't Silver's consistent and incompetent attempts at bumping off Sonic, Elise wouldn't have formed such a crush on Sonic when he constantly rescues her and his death (via Mephiles being a complete butt) likely wouldn't have affected her to such a degree that it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and caused her to cry, releasing Iblis and dooming existence as a whole when Solaris was immediately reformed. When you think about it, SIlver was, in a way, the very Iblis Trigger that he was trying to stop.

 

How dramatically ironic...

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Elise would've been kidnapped regardless of Silver's inconveniences...since Eggman would just go back to the castle and take her again...even when rescued Elise, Eggman came right on cue and kidnapped her again...all Silver did is let it happen 2 more times than it would have.

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This actually happened in ShTH canonically, and it just carried on over to '06. Like a lot of ShTH's elements that actually affect canon though, Sonic Team were stupid enough to bury it where few players were actually likely to find it - it required unlocking Hard Mode, which in turn required all A's across every existing mission, including the hero-dark equivalents for each.

So wait, does achieving this unlock a an informative tidbit or the like?

I really disagree with that. But hey blame the character haha

It's really not THAT simple my dear.

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So wait, does achieving this unlock a an informative tidbit or the like?

Supposedly the entirety of Hard Mode is Shadow doing missions for GUN, and I'm pretty sure the Commander outright hires him close to the end. Someone here probably knows better, though - suffice to say I'd never do anything that masochistic personally, and most of what I know of it is secondhand.

EDIT: Okay, I was completely wrong about the formermost part. But a quick check of GameFAQs reveals he did say this during Expert Mode's Crazy Gadget:

 

Shadow, do you read me? First, I want to... apologize, for the other day... Actually, I just became a grandfather last week, and I was thinking of maybe having you over. I know that training is tough, but try and do your best.

Make of that what you will.

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PFFFT. XD.

Okay, first of all, you just re-iterated my point about Adventure 1, so what's your point there?

Secondly, you claim to have played these games but state that Dr. Ivo "I am the greatest scientific genius in the world!" Eggman Robotnik, wasn't all that egotistical and cocky preceding Colors!? You wound me.

Others have already stated many facts debunking that, but I feel the need to point you towards Unleashed, the very game before Colors! As his plans were actually going accordingly for the most part, with him also finally managing to construct Eggmanland, the Doctor was hands-down arrogant and cocky! He even uses this as an excuse for leaving Sonic, plenty an opening and the means to shut down his agenda, claiming that he himself, "loves a challenge" and would hate to win so easily.

And as for his mother-lode ego, play through Eggmanland, a dominion he explicitly names after himself, and you'll find a text-book case of egotism inhabiting that level!

My point was, that although he did have an admiration for himself, he still got the job done. He wasn't so consumed/absorbed by his arrogance that he would go out of the way to make things easier for sonic, just for the sake of a challenge. In point of Fact, Eggman got the upper hand SEVERAL TIMES by means of a cheap Shot in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 AND Sonic 06. Most frequently in Sonic Adventure. 

Just because he was initially egotistical, it doesn't excuse the fact that he's downright stupid in every other game after Unleashed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE9yPDzVwvM&hd=1 These are the Main instances: Eggman steals the chaos emeralds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y91CC6relqI This one cutscenes is the only real cutscenes where he interacts with sonic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQOrwPnp3Ks Anybody remember that Cheap Shot by Eggman to steal back the blue chaos emerald? Also stealing the princess while Sonic is busy? 

Anybody remember these moments?

See? He was never "arrogant" or egotistical enough to make these stupid mistakes before. 

 

Y'know, it's funny that you would mention Eggman in unleashed since he doesn't really act all comical and/or gloaty about anything really... Roger Van der Weide does a better job of explaining it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4FKlu-K_m4&hd=1

To be more specific, 5:50 - 6:50

 

 

Okay, let's do a direct comparison:

Erazor Djinn does NOT have an innate ability to track down the Seven World Rings on his own so he manipulates the situation into Sonic finding them for him with use of an ability called the Flame of Judgement. GOOD.

The Flame of Judgment serves also as a ticking clock which is set to kill Sonic. Thus, proper motivation for Sonic getting the rings comes into place. Great.

This gets double bonus points because the life of the collector must be sacrificed to trigger Erazor's end goal. So he's set to get the Seven Rings along with the required sacrifice. Awesome for him.

Furthermore, this also presents a reason for why exactly Erazor doesn't hunt for and collect the World Rings himself. Simply put, he'd be the sacrifice and the plan would do himself no good in the end. Smart thinking there Erazor.

Erazor has placed Sonic into an apparent Lose-Lose situation. He doesn't deliver the rings, the Arrow kills him; he brings the rings as ordered and thus his dead body becomes the silver platter needed to serve the meal. So basically Erazor just got his plan the Two Birds With One Stone Special. Brilliant.

What we get is Erazor Djinn, a Sonic villain who legitimately works with his abilities, sports consistency in their use (thank you writers), and employs such always to his advantage which is actually clear as day, and by no means vague. He's given Sonic's foreboding death a Xanatos Gambit ticket thanks to the Flame of Judgment and such. His plan would have succeeded either way if it weren't for an unexpected, yet non-contrived "Self-Sacrifice" Shield maneuver that Shahra managed to pull off. OUTSTANDING! Amazing execution.

Say what you will about Erazor being a "generic" villain. But he still gets major rep as a Sonic villain of all things for how incredibly well-executed and legit his role turned out to be.

Now onto Mephiles.......oh dear god, Mephiles!

Mephiles is shown to have unlimited teleporting abilities, can warp to whatever time/date he pleases, and can apparently just summon all seven chaos emeralds at his beck and call, and as Solaris he can do whatever the fuck he wants to do with them.

What does he do? He enacts a James Bond villain-type of gambit plan to have Silver kill Sonic which fails miserably, and later comes back to bite him as Solaris due to Silver having wised up through his time-traveling ventures and helping ignite a plan to demolish Solaris. BAD villain!

He then proceeds to attempt pulling a Black Doom, and a Shadow the Hedgehog Evil Ending with Shadow, only to end up being a mere figure used to boost Shadow's character development, get pummeled by (Egg)man-made awesomeness E-123 Omega, and receive humiliating comeuppance tenfold at the end of Shadow's story, curtsey of Shadow and Team Dark. How.... PITIFUL of that crystalized re-color.

The means to obtaining Iblis for the big Polymerization (DAN GREEN!!!!!) lie in just warping to Iblis at date by his will, killing Elise, or making her cry. Remember, 06's story fails to issue rules that limit any of these procedures. SO as far we know any of them would hands down, get Mephiles his fusion buddy, Iblis. So, does he attempt the first two methods or even give a reason why he flat out neglects them? Hell no! He goes for Choice Number 3! Even when Iblis is fucking right next to him at Flame Core and within the same vicinity as him in Crisis City. Mephiles! You MORON!!

So Mephiles wants to make Elise, a teenage Princess who'll weep over so much as a blue Hedgehog she's only known for less than 48 hours, cry. Does he chop up onions, torture her or just warp Silver straight to the time when she's emotionally attached to Sonic and place him in the perfect postion to swiftly off Sonic. No....fucking NO!!!!! He operates in a maneuver that blows up in his face and leaves numerous opportunities for his plan to get sabotaged in the butt, which it does. FAILURE.

Mephiles hunts for the Emeralds, but is shown fully capable of bring them by the magic of villain sue-ness. Explain Mephiles! EXPLAIN yourself for once in your goddamn existence!

And finally, as Solaris he chooses to just fling the chaos emeralds into fully accessible realms that the heroes brave and tables are unimaginably turned. Bonus stupidity points for the fact that thanks to Mephiles, Silver gained the knowledge that sparked his epiphany igniting the procedure of Solaris' undoing. Way to fuck your own plan and fix it up for the heroes Mephiles. AWFUL.

Now do you see the difference?

Very indepth, thanks a bunch.

(Keep in mind that these Responses are a bit out of order...)

 

I'm still not convinced though. 

You know, Erazor's plan is a bit stupid... What if Sonic failed? Then Erazor would HAVE to sacrifice his OWN life just to get the world rings, which would in turn make all of his "hard work" not pay off at all. That. or he would just sit there... forever... And to top that off, how is it that Erazor is the creator of the stories (the stories that Sonic is currently in) yet he can't just snap Sonic out of existence, just like Indigo Rush pointed out about Solaris? Why is it that Erazor would leave the world rings just sitting there for Sonic to pick up and transform with instead of putting into some crazy place with instant death triggers everywhere like Solaris? Yet Erazor is smarter though right? 

What would happen if Silver died trying to accomplish what Mephiles instructed him to do? Nothing, Mephiles could just warp to Sonic and kill him once he was done with Shadow, which is what he did.

 

Y'know what Silver's Motivation for chasing Sonic is? His future. That's pretty good motivation. 

Especially since Mephiles is already Dealing with Shadow AND finding the location of the chaos emeralds. You can't expect him to deal everything all at once, he isn't omnipresent. There is only ONE Mephiles.

 

Also, just because the chaos emeralds appear instantaneously that doesn't mean that the chaos emeralds can come to him at his beck and call. He had to collect them first. Or at least find the loaction of Said Chaos Emeralds. Remember how Sonic transformed in unleashed? The chaos emeralds appear out of No where, yet he doesn't have the ability to do so. (Or does he...?)

 

Eggman is a better villain because he can beat up the weaker half of the god of time? Mephiles was never strong to begin with, he would either attack with Cheap Attacks, Hide, create something to fight for him, or Run away until he got a means of power, like Iblis or the Chaos Emeralds. Especially Considering that Omega isn't even Eggman's Robot anymore. He works for Gun, and he still very much Hates Eggman. That would then mean that Eggman is EVEN DUMBER than previously thought since he would discard something that could be such a useful accessory to his plans.

Even if that IS the case. Than Everyone is inferior to Omega since he SEALED the ultimate life form. This however ISN'T the case.

 

That bit about Elise crying simply because someone she knew for 48 hours died is so weak. It's a lot more to it than that. This "stranger" happened to teach her very valuable life lesson that she herself has been seen to cherish, the very "stranger" that made sure that she knew to always smile and be brave, no matter what happens, cuing in her memories of her father and him passing away. Both Sonic AND her Father taught her this and since Sonic risked SO MUCH for her, it would be insane for her to NOT CRY or for her NOT to be sad when she has to erase from existence her meeting with him thus making all of the things she learned completely gone from existence.

Also, It has been seen several times that Mephiles cannot control the place in which he teleports people, just the time period. He can only transport himself to Where ever. Even if that is the case, Mephiles DOES make sure that Silver pursues Sonic and Elise while they are very well versed. Sonic almost DIES in front of Elise until Shadow showed up.

 

Your telling me that Juggling all of that, plus being the driving force for everything in the game, while only being ONE ENTITY is a bad villain? While Erazor Djinn just sits there in his chair, waiting for Sonic to come and whoop his butt, yet Mephiles is the bad villain though right?

All of the character Flaws that Mephiles has was intentional anyway. Without them Everyone would Die. Making him less intelligent is the only way that the heroes could overcome his antics. Whether they be miscalculations or not, The ONLY real reason Mephiles isn't a 'good' villain (by your standards) is because the writers wrote him that way specifically so that everyone COULD manage to defeat him in the end. You think it would be a good ending to a Sonic game were everyone dies and Mephiles/Solaris wins? You think it would be an exciting Story if as soon as Mephiles was released he would warp right to Elise and kills her and instantly become Solaris? How exactly would that be anything EXCEPT interesting if he did those things exactly? The order in which he does things is strictly so things get done in the game. Without him NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN IN THE STORY, whether he be a good villain or not. Silver wouldn't even be a playable or relevant character in the game without him. HE'S THE WHOLE REASON THIS STORY HAPPENS. And Eggman a little for having the scepter of Darkness.

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I'm still not convinced though. 

You know, Erazor's plan is a bit stupid... What if Sonic failed? Then Erazor would HAVE to sacrifice his OWN life just to get the world rings, which would in turn make all of his "hard work" not pay off at all.

 

If Sonic fails, then he dies due to the fire on his chest, and Erazor would probably just go find some other sap to do his dirty work until his plan does succeed. Or he might use Shahra for the job, since he seemed to have some type of abusive relationship with her and could probably strongarm her into doing it. He probably wouldn't care what happens to her in the long term.

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You think it would be an exciting Story if as soon as Mephiles was released he would warp right to Elise and kills her and instantly become Solaris?

No it wouldn't be, and that's the point.

The story is in its entirety unnecessary, because if Mephiles really wanted to urgently fuse with Iblis and destroy time itself, he would have warped straight to Elise, killed her and there you go, job done.

If, hypothetically, Mephiles was a real entity would he have bothered recruiting Silver to kill Sonic? No, he'd go straight to Elise, kill the bitch and get Iblis.

Moreover, HOW COULD HE KNOW THAT KILLING SONIC WOULD MAKE ELISE CRY? HOW? She didn't cry when her own fucking father died, when she was 7 years old....so how could Mephiles; who didn't even MEET Sonic until he showed up and murdered him in last story, know that Elise and Sonic have over 2 days formed a relationship more powerful than her relationship with her own fucking dad, and that subsequently eliminating Sonic would make a girl who hasn't cried for 10 years, suddenly start weeping like a child?

I mean, what if Silver killed Sonic in their first fight? The one in Soleanna square. What then? At that point, Sonic and Elise barely knew each other. Her apparently "profound" relationship with Sonic wouldn't have been developed enough for her to cry yet. If she did, then she would have been written as being too emotional, which means it would have made no sense for her NOT to cry when her father died, or when she fell over and hurt herself, or something (she was only 7 when Iblis was sealed in her).

Once again, how could Mephiles have know that Sonic would die, after his relationship with Elise was fully developed?

To that end, why didn't he get Silver to kill Elise? Why take a chance and kill Sonic, when there is every possibility that Elise wouldn't cry when it happened. Why not just target her and get it over with. It would have made a whole lot more bloody sense if Elise was the target, and Sonic was protecting her from both Eggman and Silver. It would also have made his death more palatable, as Meph could have aimed for Elise and Sonic dived in the way to take the hit, and die in her place.

This whole plot point is so stupid. Elise could have been replaced with the Scepter of Flames instead and it would have made a the whole thing much easier, with less bullshit.

 

How exactly would that be anything EXCEPT interesting if he did those things exactly? The order in which he does things is strictly so things get done in the game.

It was within Mephiles' power to just kill Elise himself and get the job done. He had no need to hire Silver, other than for the sake of the plot. When a character does something that doesn't make sense for their character, simply for the sake of the plot, its bad writing.

 

Without him NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN IN THE STORY, whether he be a good villain or not. Silver wouldn't even be a playable or relevant character in the game without him. HE'S THE WHOLE REASON THIS STORY HAPPENS. And Eggman a little for having the scepter of Darkness.

Yes he is the reason the Story happens. However, based on what we know of Mephiles' capabilities the story shouldn't have happened. Mephiles could have gotten what he wanted in minutes, hours maybe (as proven by the cutscene in last story). If he had done that, then he could have happily destroyed time and he would have won, without making an enemy of Sonic, Silver and Shadow.

Mephiles decided to get them involved because he's a bad villain who did stupid and pointless things for no reason other than because the plot demands he do those things.

Bad writing, bad writing everywhere.

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Also, just because the chaos emeralds appear instantaneously that doesn't mean that the chaos emeralds can come to him at his beck and call. He had to collect them first. Or at least find the loaction of Said Chaos Emeralds.

Except he only really goes out and finds, like, one or two. The rest are all over space and time, and there's no indication that he knows anything about where they are, but they just pop in because...?

All of the character Flaws that Mephiles has was intentional anyway. Without them Everyone would Die. Making him less intelligent is the only way that the heroes could overcome his antics.

Except Mephiles isn't supposed to come off as dumb. He's supposed to come off as this intimidating manipulator. But his plan is dumb.

You think it would be an exciting Story if as soon as Mephiles was released he would warp right to Elise and kills her and instantly become Solaris?

Quite the opposite, and that's the problem. The characters do things not because it's reasonable for them to do so, but because they need to happen for the story to happen. That's bad writing.

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Alright, I'm not usually one to do this, but why the on earth are we splitting hairs over whether or not a statue was replaced? And like, trying to justify it by being crazy conspiracy theorists over Sonic the Hedgehog?

 

Comrade, the point was that Eggman has always been egotistical. Whether or not the Illuminati had aliens abduct the statue to learn the secrets of JFK's assassination has absolutely no bearing on that point, and there are plenty of other pieces of evidence that support Eggman's just being full of himself from day one. Just let it go, comrade. It's really not worth it.

I was generally pointing out that the Eggman after 06 was a lot less intelligent than the Eggman of 06, but I digress.

 

And when did he act childish, oh yeah a stomp of a foot, completely childish by all means! Well instead of just standing there doing nothing just kidnap her since, reboot or not, Eggman should know that Sonic will be on his way anytime soon but nope, Eggman is just going to take his sweet ass time with it. Because that's so Eggman. Why couldn't he just get the emerald now, it's obvious he needs it so why just wait for tomorrow, answer that question. This is out of character since Eggman can just overpower Sonic with his robots and take the emerald for himself but for some fucking reason he doesn't, the other games might have been similar about this but atleast it doesn't make Eggman look like a hypocrite.

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But the Super Emeralds are not part of the game canon, the canon goes by Sonic 3 and S&K separately. Blaze using the Sol Emeralds is somewhat similar to Sonic and Knuckles connection to the Chaos Emeralds, first off she's the guardian of the emeralds so due to her being assigned that role there is a good chance that she probably established a connection to them, just the same way as Knuckles. When she used its power, she was using its positive energy like Sonic in Adventure 1. Shadow can turn Super due to his blood already being one with said energy since Black Doom can use the emeralds as well, how that works is anyone's guess but we're talking about how is Silver using Chaos Control an asspull. Silver isn't a guardian of the emeralds of the future or has established a connection prior to meeting Mephiles, he doesn't even know them since after the Egg Genesis fight where he gets the emerald from it, Blaze mentions about the emerald like she's introducing it to him, therefore meaning Silver doesn't even know the power of a Chaos Emerald.

 

Oh, so Knuckles was carrying the Master Emerald with him all the time at 06, does the game ever tell you about that or is that another asspull of yours. There was no mention of the Master Emerald or Angel Island, it completely ignores it entirely and I really doubt 06 completely ignores 3&K where it does mention the said relics. So yeah Knuckles is completely useless in the game, just let Tails give Sonic the card and give Knuckles some sort of fucking respect or GIVE EVERYONE SOME GODDAMN RESPECT! And no, this is not nitpicking, it's nitpicking when I say 06 sucks because Nack isn't in it or the it sucks because the visuals isn't like COD or something. These are actual problems the game has and you are not looking at it that way, the reason why you not think so is beyond me but don't point the finger at me and any other member when we have some proof that this games sucks while you are running out of ways trying to defend it.

 

--------------------------------

 

Did she ever say it was Sonic? Did she ever mention it again? 

 

The answer is big fat FUCKING NO to both questions, therefore mentioning that was complete bullshit and only confuses thing even more in an already overcomplicated plot!

 

---------------------------------

 

Well I wouldn't have to remember that if you actually listen to us instead of ignoring us every single fucking time we bring an argument! 

 

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Well it seems that you're still arrogant about it since we are still having this argument then and last time I remember you made a topic on why people likes Colors and that the game actually sucks, granted I'm not a big fan of it either but I don't come off as dick because of it.

That's Childish, just like when Eggman gets angry when the eclipse cannon doesn't fire. Don't you remember Rouge saying "Look at you, throwing a fit like a little kid, how embarrassing". That isn't out of character.

Doing nothing? 5 Seconds of waiting for the princess to come on board WILLINGLY, yet that's doing nothing? BULL - CRAP

The reason Eggman DOESN'T just take the emerald is because he needs it to trap Sonic in the future, and test his Solaris Prototype machine.

How does any of those things make Eggman look like a hypocrite?

 

Hypocrisy

noun
 
  1. 1.
    the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

 

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When has it ever been stated that Sonic and Knuckles was a separate Canon to Sonic 3? Spoiler Alert! It doesn't. EVER.

 

What about Tails? What about everyone else who has been on Sonic's Adventures with him and CANNOT abuse the power of the emeralds? Amy? Big? Cream? Rouge? HECK, EVEN EGGMAN of all people who has collected them since the beginning has NEVER used the power of the emeralds. EVERYTHING about the chaos emeralds is a ...buttpull. They are the chance items of the universe. Bad mans kidnapping animals? Get those chaos emeralds! Bad Guy stealing a giant Emerald (one that controls all of the chaos emeralds)? Get those Chaos Emeralds! Giant Water beast angry about people abusing Chao? Get Those Chaos Emeralds! A Giant Lizard has fused with a space colony and is planning to crash into the earth? Get those Chaos Emeralds! Wanna know the secrets to your past? Get those Chaos Emeralds! Need to travel through time? Get Those Chaos Emeralds! The planets torn apart? Get Restore those Chaos Emeralds! A robot lost his Memory? Get those Chaos Emeralds! Eggman's just being an overall jerk? Get those Chaos Emeralds! Need to find more Chaos Emeralds? Get those Chaos Emeralds! Toilet's clogged? Get those Chaos Emeralds!

 

I don't have any... buttpulls for you. That is a fact straight from Sonic Adventure 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqijv85vDks&hd=1

Knuckles Carries the Master Emerald all the way from wherever he was when he restored it to the core of the cannon. (7:30 - 7:45)

And in the entire game of Sonic Adventure Angel Island is attached to the mainland by a bridge

 

These are earlier established moments of Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2. Therefore they are NITPICKS if these problems are pointed towards Sonic 06.

And a nitpick isn't hating a game for a stupid reason... well it kinda is, but that's not necessarily the case with you Nack the Weasel/Fang the Sniper example. A Nit pick is being overly critical in one area of anything and being completely forgiving in another game or instance with no real reason.

Or Rather:

Nit Pick

1. to be excessively concerned with or critical of inconsequential details.

2. to criticize by focusing on inconsequential details.

 

From Dictionary.com*

 

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So if blaze has absolutely No idea who Sonic is, why exactly would she question if said blue hedgehog were responsible for such acts? "Iblis Trigger? A Blue Hedgehog? Can it be True? I've got to find Silver fast!"

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Like everyone else? Your being a hypocrite, you did exactly what you didn't want me to do. How can I be so willing to not behave as such if the very people who tell me NOT to act this way ARE acting this way?

 

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That was made prior to my apology, therefore that too is under the jurisdiction of the apology.

And I must note that said Topic didn't discourage peoples liking of the game. I in fact mentioned that it's Alright if you liked the game and I simply wanted to know why it was considered good. How about you go back and READ THE TOPIC before posting false accusations about it?

 

A TRUE Scotsman...

Sorry dude, you lose. At least have the dignity to admit it plainly instead of trying to weasel out of it.

 

It fell after Sonic 2, crash landed on the island (which is why it was at sea level, instead of floating), briefly rose again at the end of Launch Base, then fell back to the island again.

His honorable intentions in no way negate his stunning gullibility. No amount of caps lock is going to change that.

Except, this is yet another example of how stunningly incompetent '06 is. The line is poorly translated. The word she uses can mean either "blue" or "naive". She's not remembering Sonic, she's misinterpreting Silver's words and wondering if he's the one who ends up being responsible for everything.

Which he kind of is, due to being a gullible doofus.

Weasel out of what?

The only thing you proved me wrong about was that Eggman has desecrated Statues before. That's it.

That Still doesn't change the fact that he's down right stupid in every game subsequent to colors. And that he was never arrogant enough to make it easier for Sonic. I already admitted I was wrong about the latter, but the prior still stands.

 

And where did you get this information from? I don't recall seeing that In the game after revisiting it.

 

Are you talking about Silver or Knuckles? Silver's intentions are far more honorable and a lot less gullible than that of Knuckles.

The same cannot be said for Knuckles however.

 

And where did you get this information from as well? The game NEVER says anything about Silver being the Blue Hedgehog she is referring to. If that was the case, then Blaze would intervene and TELL silver about this instead of just sitting there saying nothing. She even comes up and tells him that He's Naive! Why wouldn't he just tell him that then and there!? 

Her Wave Ocean cutscene very clearly says Blue Hedgehog after Iblis Trigger. She then promptly wonders if said accusations are true and then states: "I have to find Silver fast!" 

 

How could going back into the past to save the future that's already messed up make someone a gullible doofus? Your telling me that you (or anyone else reading for that matter) would just SIT THERE, while a fire beast destroys everything day in and out? I know I wouldn't. That bit makes Silver relate-able, and I'm quite sure that anyone would risk whatever it took to save what is special to them. Either that, or some questions about one's ideals are in order....

 

And on a personal note to DBZHedgy: People will respect you more if you're able to admit when you're wrong. Like, ONCE.

I already did... unlike a numerous amount of members here...

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DBZHedgy, I strongly suggest you re-read the components of that post of mine. Not only do you appear to be missing their points but you also have harshly skimmed over the sections where I explicitly explained why certain such is such like why Erazor doesn't collect the rings himself, actual direct quoting from Unleashed, and whatnot.

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If Sonic fails, then he dies due to the fire on his chest, and Erazor would probably just go find some other sap to do his dirty work until his plan does succeed. Or he might use Shahra for the job, since he seemed to have some type of abusive relationship with her and could probably strongarm her into doing it. He probably wouldn't care what happens to her in the long term.

And if Sonic is by far the bestest best character in ever (according to the Sonic universe) then who exactly would be able achieve these goals? Shara could barely do anything on her own, much less collect those world rings by herself.

It just doesn't seem very feasible... the whole thing just falls apart if Sonic Dies.

 

No it wouldn't be, and that's the point.

The story is in its entirety unnecessary, because if Mephiles really wanted to urgently fuse with Iblis and destroy time itself, he would have warped straight to Elise, killed her and there you go, job done.

If, hypothetically, Mephiles was a real entity would he have bothered recruiting Silver to kill Sonic? No, he'd go straight to Elise, kill the bitch and get Iblis.

Moreover, HOW COULD HE KNOW THAT KILLING SONIC WOULD MAKE ELISE CRY? HOW? She didn't cry when her own fucking father died, when she was 7 years old....so how could Mephiles; who didn't even MEET Sonic until he showed up and murdered him in last story, know that Elise and Sonic have over 2 days formed a relationship more powerful than her relationship with her own fucking dad, and that subsequently eliminating Sonic would make a girl who hasn't cried for 10 years, suddenly start weeping like a child?

I mean, what if Silver killed Sonic in their first fight? The one in Soleanna square. What then? At that point, Sonic and Elise barely knew each other. Her apparently "profound" relationship with Sonic wouldn't have been developed enough for her to cry yet. If she did, then she would have been written as being too emotional, which means it would have made no sense for her NOT to cry when her father died, or when she fell over and hurt herself, or something (she was only 7 when Iblis was sealed in her).

Once again, how could Mephiles have know that Sonic would die, after his relationship with Elise was fully developed?

To that end, why didn't he get Silver to kill Elise? Why take a chance and kill Sonic, when there is every possibility that Elise wouldn't cry when it happened. Why not just target her and get it over with. It would have made a whole lot more bloody sense if Elise was the target, and Sonic was protecting her from both Eggman and Silver. It would also have made his death more palatable, as Meph could have aimed for Elise and Sonic dived in the way to take the hit, and die in her place.

This whole plot point is so stupid. Elise could have been replaced with the Scepter of Flames instead and it would have made a the whole thing much easier, with less bullshit.

It was within Mephiles' power to just kill Elise himself and get the job done. He had no need to hire Silver, other than for the sake of the plot. When a character does something that doesn't make sense for their character, simply for the sake of the plot, its bad writing.

Yes he is the reason the Story happens. However, based on what we know of Mephiles' capabilities the story shouldn't have happened. Mephiles could have gotten what he wanted in minutes, hours maybe (as proven by the cutscene in last story). If he had done that, then he could have happily destroyed time and he would have won, without making an enemy of Sonic, Silver and Shadow.

Mephiles decided to get them involved because he's a bad villain who did stupid and pointless things for no reason other than because the plot demands he do those things.

Bad writing, bad writing everywhere.

That's beside the point though, it doesn't matter if the story was unnecessary. The premise of the story was to make the biggest possible story and best possible gameplay that they could muster up. Since the gameplay has added new features, added new characters, brought back hubs, added hub missions, added partner systems, added Rival battles, et cetera; Making a story in which characters fight, have character moments, are confused, go through several different emotions, and come together in the end WHILE traveling through time REQUIRES a character that would make such convoluted decisions. This story wouldn't be all big and crazy if it weren't for this one character. It'd be just another simply plain story and yet another reason people would use against 06.

Mephiles HAS to know this if he needs Sonic dead. Since Silver does not do this, he simply does it himself, only because he knew how close Elise and Sonic were at the time. This is already acquired knowledge, and the game makes it very clear that he already knows that so why ask? He has the ability to Time Travel at will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry9kaCKfdFw

This cutscene happens directly before Sonic meets Silver for the first time. The time in which Elise almost cries just thinking about Sonic leaving, simply because of how much she has already done for her in the matter of 1 day.

The reason Mephiles doesn't send Silver to kill Elise is because she has to CRY. The whole plot point of Elise is crying, why exactly wouldn't that be the case?

Silver was "hired" to stall and/or kill Sonic while Mephiles went to convince shadow and get the chaos emeralds. That isn't unnecessary.

If Mephiles DID take that way out, then there would be NO WAY for the heroes to win at all. The point of every video game (especially sonic) is that Sonic ALWAYS WINS. Without these character flaws there would be no way for the characters to succeed in any of their attempts. I'll state it again. The REASON Mephiles has flaws is so the Story can be resolved.

Are you saying that you would rather Mephiles rule the world or Eggman have killed Sonic(SA2), just for the sake of the game having "good writing" or for a villain to be written properly?

You WANT Sonic to die? You WANT the entirety of the Sonic Universe to die out? How could more video games be made if Sonic and the entirety of the universe is gone? THat's just it. They CAN'T. The REASON Villains have FLAWS is so the Heroes can succeed in the end. (Or in Sonic's case prior to Colors, having A wonderful villain with no flaws, but having a fail proof concept like the chaos emeralds at your disposal.)

 

Except he only really goes out and finds, like, one or two. The rest are all over space and time, and there's no indication that he knows anything about where they are, but they just pop in because...?

Except Mephiles isn't supposed to come off as dumb. He's supposed to come off as this intimidating manipulator. But his plan is dumb.

Quite the opposite, and that's the problem. The characters do things not because it's reasonable for them to do so, but because they need to happen for the story to happen. That's bad writing.

Mephiles has the ability to Travel through Time, he could've easily found the location of the rest of the chaos emeralds while Omega and Shadow are busy. When he teleported through time, Omega and Shadow followed him, they then spent some time gathering info on him or whatevz, and while that occurred Mephiles could instantly teleport/time travel to all of the other places in which the chaos emeralds were and teleported back to the dusty desert and found the chaos emeralds. In that Case Shadow and the crew would show up and stop him.

He manipulates Shadow and Silver :T

He has to be dumb for the entirety of the universe to be able to come back to normal. A big bad villain like this HAS to have these flaws for the sake of the gaming universe. Have you ever seen a game where the villain wins? Like entirely? Ever? NO.

Well, only Mephiles, but I see your point. Everyone else does things a normal person would do, or rather what they would act like with their previous character intact. Cept Blaze. She's Rebooted to some extent.

 

 

DBZHedgy, I strongly suggest you re-read the components of that post of mine. Not only do you appear to be missing their points but you also have harshly skimmed over the sections where I explicitly explained why certain such is such like why Erazor doesn't collect the rings himself, actual direct quoting from Unleashed, and whatnot.

How so? You said that Erazor is superior to Mephiles in almost every way. As such I countered this with bringing up the idea of Sonic Dying. That's where his whole plan falls apart. And it's on that dependent factor that makes him inferior to Mephiles. Mephiles had counter plans to go alonside his previous plans if they Failed. Erazor does not. He depends HEAVILY on Sonic. What would happen if he fails?

Mephiles does all of this crazy crap, and he always has one failproof plan that cannot fail just in case anything else fails. How could his final "plan" blow up in his face? That's just it. It can't. It's a Failproof plan.

 

Posts merged.  Please use the edit button next time. ~Tara

Edited by Tara

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I'm pretty sad right now. All this arguing over, "Hey, this game is severely flawed but I like it." Why can't the defending party just say this D:

When something is bad it's bad. Whether or not you like it. But hey, you still CAN like it. Like burnt toast. That's bad cooking but if you like yourttoast burnt then you like it burnt just don't say thats good cooking.

Also as for Melpontro's mods. They have me wondering if I really wanna try to make it through 06 again for the heck of it. If only I could get those models and character adjustments. That'd be somewhat fun.

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You honestly have yet to legitimately "counter" my analyzation of the comparison, DBZ. Sonic dying does not guarantee doom for Erazor's plans so much as it could just as easily have gotten the sacrifice part out of the way lickety split or a slight delay in plans.

Again, please re-read my post, 'cause you're apparently not getting the message.

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I'm pretty sad right now. All this arguing over, "Hey, this game is severely flawed but I like it." Why can't the defending party just say this D:

When something is bad it's bad. Whether or not you like it. But hey, you still CAN like it. Like burnt toast. That's bad cooking but if you like your toast burnt then you like it burnt just don't say that's good cooking.

Hence, why I stay away from this topic. I always think I have something to say, but I know I'll get shot down.

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Hence, why I stay away from this topic. I always think I have something to say, but I know I'll get shot down.

? You shouldn't fear that, it's fine to express your opinion about it, it's just this particular argument is.. dragging. I'm sorry if my post made you feel that way.

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S&K is canon, the Super emeralds aren't they are only there to get around there being 2 sets of emeralds thanks to the "lock on" feature. That's why Hyper forms are not canon.

The game certainly didn't relay that to you directly, so I can see why I was confused.

 

Angel Island is only attached to Mystic Ruins in SA1 because the emerald was shattered and fell from the sky, Angel Island is not connected to any continent.

... You don't know how wrong you are.

In Sonic Adventure 1, no matter what happens (if the Master Emerald is restored or shattered) Angel Island is ALWAYS attached to the mainland in mystic ruins. In the final story, the Emerald is restored, yet it NEVER starts floating again.

 

Knuckles doesn't carry it around for any stupid reason. He only carried it around from Meteor Herd to keep it safe and because he was in space, nowhere near Angel Island and didn't have the means to get back

Did you see him put it back? Did any of the games after that tell you that he put it back? No, it didn't. Therefore we are forced to believe that he carries it with him especially since Angel Island doesn't move at all during the events of Sonic Adventure, except for the CG cutscene of it falling. And in Sonic 3K Knuckles is outright CARRYING the master Emerald and it's STILL FLOATING IN THE SKY

sk-stages-endingsimg12.png

 

 

In Secret Rings, Erazor didn't create the stories, he was a part of a story, more specifically he was the Genie from Alladin. And also Sonic was summoned by Shahara, who was The one originally tasked by Erazor to get the world rings by Erazor, she could summon someone else or failing that collect them herself.

When Erazor uses the 7 world rings he becomes the creator of the stories, and he begins re-writing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTHEcZQWlDU&hd=1

Start at 3:35

 

 

Diogenes is correct about Sonic 2, the whole of S2, S3 and S3&K is called (or known as) the Death Egg Saga, like seriously the last zone of S2 is "Death Egg Zone". The story from S3 manual also says that the Death Egg had crashed onto Angel Island (hence why it was on the sea rather than in the air, Eggman doesn't steal the emerald till Hidden Palace Zone in S&K). The ending of Launch Base zone has you fight 1 (or two if playing S3 on its own) out of 2 (or 3) bosses on a platform on the underside of the Death Egg, which you then see crashing again onto Lava Reef Zone.

Even if he is right, that still doesn't excuse knuckles stupidity.

There are still factors that stand even if Eggman did looked like he was beaten to a pulp.

Half of the "Bad guys" That wrecked Eggman is a child.

Eggman is destroying the island WHILE Knuckles is out messing with Sonic

And Eggman's face is still on the destroyed death egg. What right minded individual would have their face on a giant airship, and another thing, what reason would Knuckles have to trust him? No questions are asked and the situation can still very much get worse for Knuckles, yet he still bull-headedly rams in and doesn't ask any questions about Sonic and Tails.

 

Again with silver and the "Blue hedgehog" comment, Diogenes is saying that the word used in Japanese could mean either Blue or Naive and may have been translated incorrectly (happened in SA and SA2 A LOT) meaning that Blaze could be going to warn Silver about him being Naive. And before you say "SEGA of Japan would have told them", SoJ and SoA don't have the best relationship, with a lot of information, aside from the really fundamental stuff, not being transferred across the pond.

No, absolutely No.

Where does it say that this is actually the case? That's just it, it doesn't. It's speculation, and diagnosis. No where in the game does it say that Blaze is referring to Silver, and even if she was, she would have told him right then and there with the "Naive" Conversation on the port in New City Soleanna. She was clearly not referring to him seeing as how she didn't STOP him, or much less WARN HIM about a Naive hedgehog ruining the future.

 

 

A lot of this stuff could have been found out by doing a quick google, if someone refutes points based on basic game elements a quick google really wouldn't have hurt.

Not everything on the internet is true. I search through Video Cutscenes or I just downright playthrough the game again for evidence.

It's a more reliable and truthful source.

 

 

Also regarding the Mephelies needing to do things to make a story. That's kinda a proof of bad writing. A character shouldnt NEED to do lots of convolted and seemingly needless actions to progress the story. The actions and reasons should seem natural and make sense in order to progress the story.

For example instead of Eggman hypothetically stealing a chaos emerald and then randomly robbing a bank before stealing candy from a baby, just so Sonic has a reason to track him down he steals the gold because his latest invention requires 24 carat gold in order to produce enough power to do something... The baby , well just because he is a gloriously evil bastard! (That last bit about the baby was a joke)

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. 

What I was trying to say is:

ALL VILLAINS have SOME FLAW that make them lose in the long run. It would be no surprise to me if you've heard something along the lines of "The good guy always wins". This is because every villain has some miscalculation or downright stupid moment keeping them from being the ultimate villain. The only way Mephiles would be considered a good villain is if Sonic and friends died and Time was consumed. That wouldn't leave a good taste in the players mouth now would it?

Have you EVER played a game where the Good guy dies and the Bad guy wins for good? If you have then it certainly hasn't happened as frequently as the Good Guy winning and the Bad guy losing.

Eggman has lost several times because of Not knowing of certain things before doing this or that, but he isn't a god of time and/or space, so it's expected. Mephiles would be considered a bad villain no matter what his circumstances were since he is supposed to know everything. But since every game is expected to have a "happy ending" the villain, or Mephiles in this case, HAS to be stupid to some degree.

 

 

 

 His plan would have succeeded either way if it weren't for an unexpected, yet non-contrived "Self-Sacrifice" Shield maneuver that Shahra managed to pull off.

No his plans would not have succeeded either way. The other way beside Sonic collecting the rings is Sonic dying trying or him dying because he took to long. That was really stupid, that is unless he was bluffing, but the game doesn't make that clear does it? Therefore he is STUPID.

Also, How would it succeed if he doesn't have the ability to track down the world rings? You just said that he specifically used Sonic to both find them AND sacrifice him. 

 

 

 

Say what you will about Erazor being a "generic" villain. But he still gets major rep as a Sonic villain of all things for how incredibly well-executed and legit his role turned out to be.

Incredibly well-executed and Legitimate his role turned out to be? 

He curses Sonic and tells him to fetch some rings. Big wh00p. Not only that, but he can still very much FAIL at retrieving the rings. His plan isn't fail proof. It has holes in them, and that's HIS ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE HIS GOAL. Mephiles does not have to deal with this issue because he always has one sharp move up his sleeve if all else fails, and that's what he did. 

 

 

 

What does he do? He enacts a James Bond villain-type of gambit plan to have Silver kill Sonic which fails miserably, and later comes back to bite him as Solaris due to Silver having wised up through his time-traveling ventures and helping ignite a plan to demolish Solaris.

Fails miserably huh? No. It would've worked if shadow didn't step in. Silver almost killed sonic TWICE. That isn't failing miserably, especially since his entire plan wasn't heavily dependent on this.

And all Silver said was HOW to bring Sonic back to life. Doctor Eggman was the one who said that they had to defeat him through all three time zones.

 

 

 

He then proceeds to attempt pulling a Black Doom, and a Shadow the Hedgehog Evil Ending with Shadow, only to end up being a mere figure used to boost Shadow's character development, get pummeled by (Egg)man-made awesomeness E-123 Omega, and receive humiliating comeuppance tenfold at the end of Shadow's story, curtsey of Shadow and Team Dark. How.... PITIFUL of that crystalized re-color.

How can you even say that? The game doesn't make clear who won at the end of Shadow's Story. That's like Saying Sonic is the bestest ever since you beat Shadow in Hero mode of Sonic Adventure 2(Ark battle).

 

 

 

Mephiles hunts for the Emeralds, but is shown fully capable of bring them by the magic of villain sue-ness. Explain Mephiles! EXPLAIN yourself for once in your goddamn existence!

And to think, all of this could've been tied up with an "explain everything" cutscene. Is it really that big of a deal? All the writers had to do was tie up loose ends. ANYONE could do that. They however neglected to do so, so I see your point.

 

That's all you really said. Erazor is a good villain because his plan doesn't fail, even though it has a lot of possibility to fail. Since many gamers cannot seem to playthrough Sonic and the Secret Rings WITHOUT dying, then that pretty much voids his plan in several universes in which Sonic does Die. Mephiles doesn't have to worry about that though.

 

Your failing to see the counter to your prior statement.

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The game certainly didn't relay that to you directly, so I can see why I was confused.

 

 

... You don't know how wrong you are.

In Sonic Adventure 1, no matter what happens (if the Master Emerald is restored or shattered) Angel Island is ALWAYS attached to the mainland in mystic ruins. In the final story, the Emerald is restored, yet it NEVER starts floating again.

 

Yet every other game since then does.

 

Also doing that would be really bad game design and development. Doing that would require an entirely new area to be constructed as well as a system put in place which would mean the player could access this area from a specific point at a specific time in the games completion which would have to occur post main game completion.

 

Aside from having a huge amount of time added to development, you also have to deal with matters of memory when constructing something like that in a game which was already pushed like Sonic Adventure. 

 

Vs the following.

 

"Lets just leave it there since it's only one game."

 

Edit: Hang on... .. ... wait... yes it does rise up again, it does that at the end of Knuckles' story. 

 

 

Therefore we are forced to believe that he carries it with him especially

 

Up until today... nobody has ever thought this.

 

Are you seriously arguing that Knuckles has been carrying the master emerald around with him in every game since Sonic Adventure 2? 

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@DBZHedgy: You're penny picking the crap outta this... but one thing I see where you can be confused by Adventure angel island because when I was little so was I. But I BELIEVE that Mystic Ruin is only connected through that mountain scape to AI. Because the rocks crumble revealing it when it lands and ish and blargh. I THINK. Because why would Tails' workshop be on AI?

By the way I know I already said this but you're picking at the table scraps man.. of course Knuckles carried it in S3 he had to get it back to theIisland somehow.. Please read up on Sonic information before posting things that may or may not be true, it's offensive to those who've dedicated it to memory(not me sorry if I offended anyone)

I really want that Modern Sonic model on a copy of 06' with those physics changes. I'd pay for that. And by that I means Melpontros mods, they make it 10% more playable in my opinion.

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