Official Sonic 2006 topic

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

To better clarify:

Every Villain has at least one moment where they end up screwing things up for themselves. That one moment for Mephiles is taking Silver to that Past.

Even that's untrue. And it still doesn't justify Mephiles leaving more holes in his plan than swiss cheese.

 

 

As for the latter of your post:

DBZHedgy, on 26 Mar 2014 - 5:27 PM, said:

 

First of all, you've not presented any factual evidence whatsoever that confirms this notion of your's.

 

Secondly, if he can warp in right behind Sonic while apparently levitating a Chaos Emerald in front of the hedghog's face, then he can very well just place SIlver in an optimum position to take him out.

 

And what are these  "problems" you yourself conceive Erazor to have left in his plans?

 

For someone who prides himself on being such a lore-accurate Sonic fan, you constantly show holes in your take and actual understanding of what actually happens in these events.

[DBZHedgy]

This is why no one here is taking you seriously.

Even if this is the case, We've already established that the advanced titles don't have a solid place in the timeline.

 

 

I don't think you quite know what a cameo is.

 

If cameos are to be treated like that, then Metal Gear Twin Snakes completely fucks the entire Mario continuity.

 

If cameos were treated like that, it means that since 1998 Lara Croft has been a zombie, since she's killed in the game Carmageddon 2, and whilst being a zombie she had sex with Duke Nukem in Time To Kill which came out in the same month.

The Mario reference in Metal Gear Solid are Action Figures, they aren't actual placements of said characters in the game.

Lara Croft could very well have died and become a Zombie. I'm not familiar with the Duke Nukem reference to her though...

Even if this is the case, We've already established that the advanced titles don't have a solid place in the timeline.

And as such, I use the Cameo in Adventure DX as something that applies her into the timeline.

[Badnik Mechanic]

 Lara Croft could very well have died and become a Zombie. I'm not familiar with the Duke Nukem reference to her though...

 

Ok I think it's safe to say you don't know what a cameo is.

[redhellc]

 

What does that have to do with anything? Nothing in the game tells us that Sonic did anything. He just stands there. How does that Stop Erazor's transformation process?

My point exactly. KILL Sonic. He isn't automatically sacrificed as soon as the rings are collected, therefore leaving a whole in erazor's plan, once again.

 

Sonic had to deal with Eggman. That's his villain, Not Mephiles. The game very much clarifies that since Sonic is only concerned about Elise and Eggman instead of Shadow and Silver.

 

No I ask you that, What does that have to do you with anything? Sonic doesn't have to do anything, its Erazor who wants the power he is the one who needs to sacrifice someone. He tried to Kill sonic at exactly that point, that was sort of a failure in Erazor part, but only because Shahra got in the middle of the two. Since that originated into Erazor transformation getting uncompleted, that only proves my point that it can't be anyone, but the ring collector that needs to be sacrificed.

 

Sorry but Eggman is a minor villain of the game, the villain is Solaris or rather Mephiles and Iblis. Kinda like Chaos or Metal Sonic. Notice that these villains interact with every important character. And also I said that made him into a weaker character compared to others in the series, because there is no build up to the moment where he kills sonic, unlike the last cutscene with Shadow.

[DBZHedgy]

Even that's untrue. And it still doesn't justify Mephiles leaving more holes in his plan than swiss cheese.

 

 

First of all, you've not presented any factual evidence whatsoever that confirms this notion of your's.

 

Secondly, if he can warp in right behind Sonic while apparently levitating a Chaos Emerald in front of the hedghog's face, then he can very well just place SIlver in an optimum position to take him out.

 

And what are these  "problems" you yourself conceive Erazor to have left in his plans?

 

For someone who prides himself on being such a lore-accurate Sonic fan, you constantly show holes in your take and actual understanding of what actually happens in these events.

So tell me. When has Mephiles ever warped anyone exactly where they need to be? Never. The only case in which he warps someone willingly it's Silver and Blaze and they end up Heck knows where.

 

I've already stated Erazor's problems above. You read through the whole post didn't you? I mean you quoted the very post that I stated them in.

 

The only instance of this is the Advance issue, and the Angel Island/ Knuckles Issue. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

And as such, I use the Cameo in Adventure DX as something that applies her into the timeline.

 

A cameo does not affect, nor hold weight in a canon's timeline.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Right, Secret Rings first. There was the prophecy. A legendary blue hedgehog would enter the story and gather the World Rings. To access the power, the gatherers life was to sacraficed as the key to its control. So what Erazor had to do was have Sonic gather the world rings, as foretold by the prophecy. Then he had to kill Sonic to get their power. He tried but Shara jumped in the way. The prophecy wasn't fulfilled, so Erazor didn't get the rings full power. Now Sonic, after losing Shara began to feel negative emotions, which is why I believe he absorbed 3 rings. The negative emotions. So you see, Erazor tried to work to the prophecy but messed up at the end. He physically had to kill Sonic to gain the power.

Lastly, look at Sonic Advance 2's cutscenes. It shows they have never met Cream before. If she truly appeared in Adventure, they'd clearly make a comment. But no, it was added as a visual nod to advertise Advance 2 in Adventure DX. She appears as canon as NiGHTS does. She's as canon as Chris Thorndyke, who was also a visual nod. It may have been just a billboard but it counts as much as Cream because they were put in just to draw attention to something else, not to impact the history of the game. Its also not before Adventure because in the manual, Eggman is called Eggman. If it was before, he'd still be Robotnik. Even Adventures manual calls him Robotnik.

[DBZHedgy]

No I ask you that, What does that have to do you with anything? Sonic doesn't have to do anything, its Erazor who wants the power he is the one who needs to sacrifice someone. He tried to Kill sonic at exactly that point, that was sort of a failure in Erazor part, but only because Shahra got in the middle of the two. Since that originated into Erazor transformation getting uncompleted, that only proves my point that it can't be anyone, but the ring collector that needs to be sacrificed.

 

Sorry but Eggman is a minor villain of the game, the villain is Solaris or rather Mephiles and Iblis. Kinda like Chaos or Metal Sonic. Notice that these villains interact with every important character. And also I said that made him into a weaker character compared to others in the series, because there is no build up to the moment where he kills sonic, unlike the last cutscene with Shadow.

Where in the game does it say that this assumption is true?

 

No, he isn't. If it weren't for Eggman, Mephiles would not have been released. He's just as important of a character here as he is in Adventure(Due to Chaos and Such).

The game very clearly references that these characters apply to each other and their respective Times:

Sonic - Eggman - Present

Shadow - Mephiles - Past

Silver - Iblis - Future

 

Heck each of their final bosses are each of these beings.

Sonic is specifically trying to stop Eggman

Shadow is specifically trying to stop Mephiles

and Silver is specifically trying to stop Iblis.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I've already stated Erazor's problems above. You read through the whole post didn't you? I mean you quoted the very post that I stated them in.

Yes, I did, You have yet to present something factual concerning such that would actually prove your case..

[Indigo Rush]

 

And as such, I use the Cameo in Adventure DX as something that applies her into the timeline.

 

 

...if that's the case, then there's really no point in entertaining your argument any longer. No amount of rationale is going to persuade you, so I'll just back out of that tangent.

 

And now for something completely different... something slightly ON topic:

 

 

I did a little digging, and I seem to recall Mephiles being based off of an evil entity in a German legend about Faust.

 

Sure enough, Psyguy and Gaijin Goomba did some research of their own:

 

 

Unfortunately, their analysis doesn't seem to go anywhere despite describing the basic lore behind the characters and how they're only slightly related. Their presentation is commendable, but they look a little too far into it.

 

The thing is that once you take the time to compare and contrast the details about the character's personalities and traits, they're hardly related at all. But it's nonetheless interesting to see how the writers at least attempted to implement some symbolism into the game's story.

 

Unfortunately, the story, as well as the symbolism, failed hard, to the point that the only relation between the two characters' are their general moral alignment and their names.

 

I have a few other connections I want to bring up, particularly involving Blaze the Cat... but I need to compile my research first before I start posting about it.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

So tell me. When has Mephiles ever warped anyone exactly where they need to be? Never. The only case in which he warps someone willingly it's Silver and Blaze and they end up Heck knows where.

 

You mean besides this cutscene where he purposefully sends Shadow and Rouge to the apocalyptic future?

 

Sounds like Mephiles just caught a case of the Stupid.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

 

Lara Croft could very well have died and become a Zombie.

 

You know, I don't think I ever expected to see this sentence in a Sonic 06 topic. I don't think I expected to see this sentence used as a serious point of argument anywhere. Because it's pants-on-head crazy. 

 

Comrade, if we're at the point where arguing the canon of cameos for an entirely different franchise counts as a defense for Sonic 06... maybe step back and re-evaluate your priorities a bit?

[redhellc]

Where in the game does it say that this assumption is true?

 

No, he isn't. If it weren't for Eggman, Mephiles would not have been released. He's just as important of a character here as he is in Adventure(Due to Chaos and Such).

The game very clearly references that these characters apply to each other and their respective Times:

Sonic - Eggman - Present

Shadow - Mephiles - Past

Silver - Iblis - Future

 

Heck each of their final bosses are each of these beings.

Sonic is specifically trying to stop Eggman

Shadow is specifically trying to stop Mephiles

and Silver is specifically trying to stop Iblis.

I'm not even going to answer that, read the post above yours it says it all. Also it's what happened it's not an assumption.

 

About 06, what you said does not contradict what I said. Eggman still is not the main villain, and just because you say is supposed to be Sonic's villain, that does not counter my argument about not being any interaction between Sonic and Mephiles.

 

Also Shadow does not represent the past, neither does mephiles. Or else silver would as well since he goes to the past with shadow and mephiles is seen on all time periods.

Edited March 26, 2014 by redhellc

[Indigo Rush]

So right, Blaze.

 

 

I actually thought I had more going for this connection than I actually did, but I thought I would share it anyway.

 

I think Blaze, at some point in the development of Sonic 2006, was going to play a much more crucial role. In fact, I would argue that she may have been outright replaced by Princess Elise in regards to this. 

 

 

See, think about the similarities between Elise and Blaze:

 

Both are royalty

Both have a mysterious power locked within them

Both have an affinity with fire and flames

Both develop a strong, almost romantic relationship with Sonic

       *(Blaze becomes a close friend, Elise actually falls in love with him)

 

and most importantly...

 

Both have connections to something related to "Sol"

 

Elise is the princess of Soleanna. Inside of her lies the secret to unlocking Solaris.

Blaze resides in the Sol Dimension. She is the guardian of the Sol Emeralds.

 

Now, Sol is the base Latin root for where we get "solar," naming our star system. With the sun being hot like fire, that's where the comparison shines its brightest. 

 

I would like to propose that, maybe at some point, Blaze could have been a more focal character to the overall plot as the fiery princess with the Flames of Disaster locked within her. She could even have developed strong feelings for Sonic by the end of the game, ending with her being sent to another dimension. 

 

 

Now, I can't necessarily prove this, but I feel like if it wasn't at some point an original plot device for the game, at the very least if someone wanted to seriously re-tool the game into something far better than it ended up being, they could probably keep the core concept of the game intact while switching Blaze's role with Elise. In fact, with Blaze center stage, you could probably do away with Elise altogether.

 

But hey, it's just a theory right?

 

A GAME- *SHOT*

[Badnik Mechanic]

[theory]

 

A GAME- *SHOT*

 

That... makes a shocking amount of sense.

 

And it would also explain why Blaze serves virtually no role at all in the game until the very end... and it would also help explain why there's no dialogue or interaction between her and Sonic at all....

 

Indigo... You might have done the impossible...

 

You have found a reason for this game to exist.

 

 

Except theres... one problem... and it's a problem we all know and love on this forum... and that's these guys.

 

 

It would mean that they would have to have been working VERY closely with Sonic Team, or Sonic Team had more of a hand in Sonic Rush than we first thought.

 

,,, ,,,, Actually... it doesn't work.

 

In Sonic Rush... Blaze doesn't recognise Sonic, and they fight many times.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I'd rather it had been Blaze kissing Sonic instead as well, but that's another story.

 

 

Except theres... one problem... and it's a problem we all know and love on this forum... and that's these guys.

 

 

It would mean that they would have to have been working VERY closely with Sonic Team, or Sonic Team had more of a hand in Sonic Rush than we first thought.

Okay............ I don't get it.

[Spin Attaxx]

Jova, Dimps (I think) made Rush completely on their own and Sonic Team's involvement amounted to little more than the characters used (so Rush's story would've been 90% Dimps). Ergo, to have Sonic Team work on a game that ties in with a story they likely had no involvement in (so no "this character will be from the future in the next big Sonic game" notes or anything,) doesn't seem likely.

 

I've probably got all my facts wrong tho' :U

[Badnik Mechanic]

Jova, Dimps (I think) made Rush completely on their own and Sonic Team's involvement amounted to little more than the characters used (so Rush's story would've been 90% Dimps). Ergo, to have Sonic Team work on a game that ties in with a story they likely had no involvement in (so no "this character will be from the future in the next big Sonic game" notes or anything,) doesn't seem likely.

 

Correct.

 

It would mean that Dimps had to have been working so closely with Sonic Team that they knew who was appearing in that game to the point where they knew key plot details of a 15th anniversary next gen title on new consoles.

 

That doesn't sound like something either team could or would do.

[Indigo Rush]

In Sonic Rush... Blaze doesn't recognise Sonic, and they fight many times.

 

Precisely.

 

Sonic Rush was released in 2005, and Sonic 2006 in... well. You know.

 

So at some point in both games' development, the two different teams may have at least considered making this a reality since both games were only a year apart. Surely some R&D overlapped, so it is at least possible. The problem begins when Sonic Team decided to make Sonic 2006 a straight-up reboot without making that perfectly clear to everyone. 

 

Additionally, there's Sonic Rivals to account for - another handheld series that featured a character with a different origin story than its 2006 counterpart - Silver.

 

Both Silver and Blaze were conceived around the same time, but Sonic 2006 came around to muck things up by nullifying both games. Granted, it's complete erasing of time and memory kind of fixes that, but these characters still had different origins.

 

So that leaves one last variable that wasn't considered:

 

 

Eggman Nega was in both Sonic Rush and Sonic Rivals, but was not in Sonic 2006. Meanwhile, both Blaze and Silver were in 2006, but Blaze was not in Rivals, and Silver was not in Rush. 

 

These three characters, Blaze, Silver and Nega, could very well have been part of a bigger story that Sonic Team wanted to tell with their characters, but perhaps at some point in time during the late 2004's and early 2006's, something went amiss and they had to completely rework some of their stories to prevent contradictions.

 

Unfortunately, this ended up with the most convoluted mass of garbage the series' canon had ever seen since Shadow the Hedgehog, and it pretty much guaranteed that Sonic Team would never try anything this ambitious ever again.

 

I think the issue may have been related to outsourcing. Sonic 2006 was developed in-house, but Sonic Rush was made by Dimps and Sonic Rivals was made by Backbone. It may be reasonable to assume that some communication errors arose at some point during development?

 

I mean, it's all speculation at this point, but it would make sense as to why these three common characters have so uncommon backstories.

[Nepenthe]

I'd rather it had been Blaze kissing Sonic instead as well, but that's another story.

Okay............ I don't get it.

 

 

For realz yo, you honestly don't need to plaster your posts with Transformers gifs to make the simplest of contributions to the topic at hand. They're really not adding much and thus come across as spammy.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Jova, Dimps (I think) made Rush completely on their own and Sonic Team's involvement amounted to little more than the characters used (so Rush's story would've been 90% Dimps). Ergo, to have Sonic Team work on a game that ties in with a story they likely had no involvement in (so no "this character will be from the future in the next big Sonic game" notes or anything,) doesn't seem likely.

Thanks! That clears and elucidates if for me!

For realz yo, you honestly don't need to plaster your posts with Transformers gifs to make the simplest of contributions to the topic at hand. They're really not adding much and thus come across as spammy.

My bad; that was sort of to add humor. A misfire on my account. My apologies.

[DBZHedgy]

 

A cameo does not affect, nor hold weight in a canon's timeline.

There is literally nothing else to go off of for her appearance. And unlike many other Cameos they don't drastically alter that of the games history. But I see your point.

 

There is still no other embelishment of the games that ground the game into the timeline, so I use existing elements to further establish my reasoning for thinking it as such. It may be wrong, but it makes sense :/

 

 

Right, Secret Rings first. There was the prophecy. A legendary blue hedgehog would enter the story and gather the World Rings. To access the power, the gatherers life was to sacraficed as the key to its control. So what Erazor had to do was have Sonic gather the world rings, as foretold by the prophecy. Then he had to kill Sonic to get their power. He tried but Shara jumped in the way. The prophecy wasn't fulfilled, so Erazor didn't get the rings full power. Now Sonic, after losing Shara began to feel negative emotions, which is why I believe he absorbed 3 rings. The negative emotions. So you see, Erazor tried to work to the prophecy but messed up at the end. He physically had to kill Sonic to gain the power.

Lastly, look at Sonic Advance 2's cutscenes. It shows they have never met Cream before. If she truly appeared in Adventure, they'd clearly make a comment. But no, it was added as a visual nod to advertise Advance 2 in Adventure DX. She appears as canon as NiGHTS does. She's as canon as Chris Thorndyke, who was also a visual nod. It may have been just a billboard but it counts as much as Cream because they were put in just to draw attention to something else, not to impact the history of the game. Its also not before Adventure because in the manual, Eggman is called Eggman. If it was before, he'd still be Robotnik. Even Adventures manual calls him Robotnik.

Ah yes, the prophecy. Everything in the game didn't go according to plan though. Initially, Sharha was supposed to get the flame of judgement, not Sonic. And After looking back at the cutscenes for the game, I didn't once see where the game mentioned that Erazor was incomplete because Sonic wasn't sacrificed. 

 

The Eggman and Robotnik thing isn't even supposed to be considered in the universe. I mean, In Adventure Eggman was a nickname coined by Sonic. Robotnik even got frustrated when Sonic called him such. Anyway, Robotnik and Eggman doesn't really displace what game Advance 2 came after since Battle is supposed to come after Shadow.

 

You mean besides this cutscene where he purposefully sends Shadow and Rouge to the apocalyptic future?

 

Sounds like Mephiles just caught a case of the Stupid.

That's WHEN not where. He obviously didn't send them to anywhere specifically, just to the future.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

That's WHEN not where. He obviously didn't send them to anywhere specifically, just to the future.

And yet he can send them to the same location TOGETHER, unlike with Blaze and SIlver.

 

Regardless, you're suggesting that for all Mephiles knew he could have warped Silver to the opposite end of the Earth from Sonic. Which in that case, could very well screw up the plan. Doesn't sound like a smart or tactiful cunning villain.

 

Sounds like when 06 Eggman sent Sonic and company sprawling through time with his time machine. Only even more dumb, because Mephiles' procedure actually directly affected his plans.

[The Tenth Doctor]

It says nowhere in the game Shara was to get the flame of judgement. Also it is obvious when it says he's incomplete. After his speech of being Alf Layla Wa Layla, Sonic says "This is terrible. Your just some incomplete monster."

I'll judge my cameo part was right then since its ignored. Actually it makes a bit of sense for Robotnik. He never accepted the name till Adventure 2. Manuals never accepted it till Adventure 2. When the name Eggman is used, its what he has accepted as his name. Anything that called him Eggman was after Adventure 2, except Adventure as it was segwaying into the name change. So since he has accepted Eggman as his name, it must be after Adventure 2.

[FireBird75]

Precisely.

 

Sonic Rush was released in 2005, and Sonic 2006 in... well. You know.

 

So at some point in both games' development, the two different teams may have at least considered making this a reality since both games were only a year apart. Surely some R&D overlapped, so it is at least possible. The problem begins when Sonic Team decided to make Sonic 2006 a straight-up reboot without making that perfectly clear to everyone. 

 

Additionally, there's Sonic Rivals to account for - another handheld series that featured a character with a different origin story than its 2006 counterpart - Silver.

 

Both Silver and Blaze were conceived around the same time, but Sonic 2006 came around to muck things up by nullifying both games. Granted, it's complete erasing of time and memory kind of fixes that, but these characters still had different origins.

 

So that leaves one last variable that wasn't considered:

 

 

Eggman Nega was in both Sonic Rush and Sonic Rivals, but was not in Sonic 2006. Meanwhile, both Blaze and Silver were in 2006, but Blaze was not in Rivals, and Silver was not in Rush. 

 

These three characters, Blaze, Silver and Nega, could very well have been part of a bigger story that Sonic Team wanted to tell with their characters, but perhaps at some point in time during the late 2004's and early 2006's, something went amiss and they had to completely rework some of their stories to prevent contradictions.

 

Unfortunately, this ended up with the most convoluted mass of garbage the series' canon had ever seen since Shadow the Hedgehog, and it pretty much guaranteed that Sonic Team would never try anything this ambitious ever again.

 

I think the issue may have been related to outsourcing. Sonic 2006 was developed in-house, but Sonic Rush was made by Dimps and Sonic Rivals was made by Backbone. It may be reasonable to assume that some communication errors arose at some point during development?

 

I mean, it's all speculation at this point, but it would make sense as to why these three common characters have so uncommon backstories.

This little issue is even noted on TvTropes under ContinuitySnarl (check under the Video Games folder).