Official Sonic 2006 topic

[DBZHedgy]

Yes, I did, You have yet to present something factual concerning such that would actually prove your case..

So the game not explaining whether or not Erazor Djinn has the ability to track the world rings isn't factual?

So Erazor unintentionally giving Sonic the Flame of Judgement isn't a fact?

So the fact that the sacrifice has to killed instead of dying immediately isn't factual?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...if that's the case, then there's really no point in entertaining your argument any longer. No amount of rationale is going to persuade you, so I'll just back out of that tangent.

 

And now for something completely different... something slightly ON topic:

 

 

I did a little digging, and I seem to recall Mephiles being based off of an evil entity in a German legend about Faust.

 

Sure enough, Psyguy and Gaijin Goomba did some research of their own:

 

 

Unfortunately, their analysis doesn't seem to go anywhere despite describing the basic lore behind the characters and how they're only slightly related. Their presentation is commendable, but they look a little too far into it.

 

The thing is that once you take the time to compare and contrast the details about the character's personalities and traits, they're hardly related at all. But it's nonetheless interesting to see how the writers at least attempted to implement some symbolism into the game's story.

 

Unfortunately, the story, as well as the symbolism, failed hard, to the point that the only relation between the two characters' are their general moral alignment and their names.

 

I have a few other connections I want to bring up, particularly involving Blaze the Cat... but I need to compile my research first before I start posting about it.

 

Hey, I wouldn't have to think that way if the games had made it clear.

 

Their Symbolism did not "fail hard", it's simply creative genius. Making the characters slighty differed to further reflect their originality. It's better than copying and pasting the characters directly from the source material.

 

And Solaris' 2nd form's design very much hints at his biblical reference.

 

 

You know, I don't think I ever expected to see this sentence in a Sonic 06 topic. I don't think I expected to see this sentence used as a serious point of argument anywhere. Because it's pants-on-head crazy. 

 

Comrade, if we're at the point where arguing the canon of cameos for an entirely different franchise counts as a defense for Sonic 06... maybe step back and re-evaluate your priorities a bit?

Hey, I wasn't the one who brought it up.

 

It wasn't... The advance discussion came about from the Angel Island and Knuckles CArrying his master emeralds discussion, which I BTW did not bring up.

 

 

I'm not even going to answer that, read the post above yours it says it all. Also it's what happened it's not an assumption.

 

About 06, what you said does not contradict what I said. Eggman still is not the main villain, and just because you say is supposed to be Sonic's villain, that does not counter my argument about not being any interaction between Sonic and Mephiles.

 

Also Shadow does not represent the past, neither does mephiles. Or else silver would as well since he goes to the past with shadow and mephiles is seen on all time periods.

If you say so

 

If that's the case, then Solaris is the main villain since he is very much the most important antagonist in the game. 

Mephiles and Sonic AREN'T SUPPOSED to interact. Just like how Silver and Eggman don't interact, or Shadow and Iblis don't interact (Even though they fight some boss forms of them, which aren't really pertaining to the plot)

 

Yes does. The final boss refers to this. Sonic defeats Solaris in the present, Silver defeats Solaris in the Future and Shadow defeats Solaris in the past.

 

 

Correct.

 

It would mean that Dimps had to have been working so closely with Sonic Team that they knew who was appearing in that game to the point where they knew key plot details of a 15th anniversary next gen title on new consoles.

 

That doesn't sound like something either team could or would do.

That would explain why Blaze is just chilling at Sonic's birthday party in Sonic Generations.

 

 

And yet he can send them to the same location TOGETHER, unlike with Blaze and SIlver.

 

Regardless, you're suggesting that for all Mephiles knew he could have warped Silver to the opposite end of the Earth from Sonic. Which in that case, could very well screw up the plan. Doesn't sound like a smart or tactiful cunning villain.

 

Sounds like when 06 Eggman sent Sonic and company sprawling through time with his time machine. Only even more dumb, because Mephiles' procedure actually directly affected his plans.

That's beside the point.

 

Coming from the guy who tells me that Erazor Djinn is a good villain although he has Bosses set up to kill him for doing directly what he wants Sonic to do... but I digress. Either way, since he very much doesn't send Silver or Blaze to the opposite ends of the earth from Sonic, then that can either mean that he can only set them in the general vecinity of where he needs them to be, or he set Silver there specifically to make sure that Silver doesn't intervene too soon.

 

 

It says nowhere in the game Shara was to get the flame of judgement. Also it is obvious when it says he's incomplete. After his speech of being Alf Layla Wa Layla, Sonic says "This is terrible. Your just some incomplete monster."

I'll judge my cameo part was right then since its ignored. Actually it makes a bit of sense for Robotnik. He never accepted the name till Adventure 2. Manuals never accepted it till Adventure 2. When the name Eggman is used, its what he has accepted as his name. Anything that called him Eggman was after Adventure 2, except Adventure as it was segwaying into the name change. So since he has accepted Eggman as his name, it must be after Adventure 2.

Yes it does. In the beginning or so cutscene, Erazor performs this action as discipline for not gathering the rings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Yl-V2vI8c

 

Yes, but the game neglects to tell you WHY he's incomplete.

 

Yes, I agree with your cameo part.

 

Interesting concept, it would've made it more believable if Sonic like commented on it... but that's beside the point.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Also... if the Devs for Sonic Rivals weren't Sonic team... then why did they build apon already established theme's like the Ifrit Dimension?

 

Could the Ifrit Dimension be a universe in which Iblis Still existed and as such created Silver's ruined Future again?

 

They should make a Spin off for Blaze, Eggman Nega and Silver. That'd be cool.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

 

That's beside the point.

 

Coming from the guy who tells me that Erazor Djinn is a good villain although he has Bosses set up to kill him for doing directly what he wants Sonic to do... but I digress. Either way, since he very much doesn't send Silver or Blaze to the opposite ends of the earth from Sonic, then that can either mean that he can only set them in the general vecinity of where he needs them to be, or he set Silver there specifically to make sure that Silver doesn't intervene too soon.

 

And that's a cop-out reply. No dice, Hedgy.

 

Oh and DBZ, I highly doubt you've even played Secret Rings at this point. Anyone who's played through the story, would have taken note that said bosses placed in Sonic's path were in posession of World Rings! Y'know the very components that Erazor wants Sonic to collect?

 

What's Mephiles' in-story excuse for jepodizing his plan's methods?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Mephiles the Dark. I like him but hes not my favorite. I dont mind if he comes up in another game. I like his design and I like how hes cunning and sofisticatid. Very Machivellian like. My problem is how he uses his gifts. I wanted him to use it in a cool and amazing way but he didnt. The problem is not that hes dumb. Hes not in my opinion. I dont like how he uses his intellgense. Big differense.

[DBZHedgy]

And that's a cop-out reply. No dice, Hedgy.

 

Oh and DBZ, I highly doubt you've even played Secret Rings at this point. Anyone who's played through the story, would have taken note that said bosses placed in Sonic's path were in posession of World Rings! Y'know the very components that Erazor wants Sonic to collect?

 

What's Mephiles' in-story excuse for jepodizing his plan's methods?

It can be a cop-out if it needs to be. I was pointing out that he can't control where they were, not whether or not they were together. As I stated above, Silver is the one tasked with killing Sonic, not blaze. Mephiles may have lead her astray from Silver for the same reason Diogenes brought up, about the Naive Hedgehog thing. But as I said, that's beside the point.

 

In the video I just showed Sharha clearly says that her power is no match for that of the erazor djinn, when Sonic was asking for power to defeat the first boss of the game. In fact, here's a direct quote from 9:10:

"That must be a monster summoned forth by the Erazor Djinn"

 

He doesn't. It's a common cliche for Video game (and villains in stories or whatever in general) villains to have flaws so that the characters can overcome their plans. Erazor and Mephiles are No different.

[redhellc]

So the game not explaining whether or not Erazor Djinn has the ability to track the world rings isn't factual?

 

If you say so

 

If that's the case, then Solaris is the main villain since he is very much the most important antagonist in the game. 

Mephiles and Sonic AREN'T SUPPOSED to interact. Just like how Silver and Eggman don't interact, or Shadow and Iblis don't interact (Even though they fight some boss forms of them, which aren't really pertaining to the plot)

 

Yes does. The final boss refers to this. Sonic defeats Solaris in the present, Silver defeats Solaris in the Future and Shadow defeats Solaris in the past.

 

If you read my post before the one you quoted you can see that I said Solaris was the main villain, which in turn makes Mephiles and Iblis the main villains. 

 

If he was not supposed to interact to with him, than why make him kill Sonic? You can say that should be Silver's job, but since in the middle of silver's story he gave up on killing Sonic, why didn't Mephiles send someone else to kill if he was not supposed to interact with him? 

 

But I still say the same thing, what you are saying doesn't counter what I said. I said that the scene is weak because there is no decent build up to it, making me feel that Mephiles is a weaker character.

 

Well if is supposed to represent the past, then the game makes a horrible job of hinting it. Nothing in the battle says shadow is fighting the past, future or present solaris. Same goes for the other ones, that is an assumption you are making. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I do agree that the Erazer Djinn used his intellgense in a cooler way then Mephiles is. I find Mephiles to be smart but he wasted it

[DBZHedgy]

If you read my post before the one you quoted you can see that I said Solaris was the main villain, which in turn makes Mephiles and Iblis the main villains. 

 

If he was not supposed to interact to with him, than why make him kill Sonic? You can say that should be Silver's job, but since in the middle of silver's story he gave up on killing Sonic, why didn't Mephiles send someone else to kill if he was not supposed to interact with him? 

 

But I still say the same thing, what you are saying doesn't counter what I said. I said that the scene is weak because there is no decent build up to it, making me feel that Mephiles is a weaker character.

 

Well if is supposed to represent the past, then the game makes a horrible job of hinting it. Nothing in the battle says shadow is fighting the past, future or present solaris. Same goes for the other ones, that is an assumption you are making. 

Oh, Sorry about that.

 

Because that's the only way the princess will cry, and the only way he can fuse with Iblis. I mean, Eggman was involved in Silver and Shadow's plot to some extent, so why can't Mephiles? Eggman is the reason Sonic isn't dead due to Silver too. Go figure.

 

I'm ok with that then, because there wasn't supposed to be any buildup. That was Shadow's main villain. Sonic and Eggman's build-up was good as such since they are supposed to be fighting each other. Or at least Decent. They ending up fighting while Eggman's ship is falling apart.

Iblis' Build up with Silver is to display that since Silver now know how to TRULY defeat Iblis it in turn raises the stakes, and some changes to the battle have occurred between the first fight and the final fight.

 

What else would he represent if Silver came from the Future and Sonic is already occupying the Past and NEVER goes back into the Past?

[redhellc]

Oh, Sorry about that.

 

Because that's the only way the princess will cry, and the only way he can fuse with Iblis. I mean, Eggman was involved in Silver and Shadow's plot to some extent, so why can't Mephiles? Eggman is the reason Sonic isn't dead due to Silver too. Go figure.

 

I'm ok with that then, because there wasn't supposed to be any buildup. That was Shadow's main villain. Sonic and Eggman's build-up was good as such since they are supposed to be fighting each other. Or at least Decent. They ending up fighting while Eggman's ship is falling apart.

Iblis' Build up with Silver is to display that since Silver now know how to TRULY defeat Iblis it in turn raises the stakes, and some changes to the battle have occurred between the first fight and the final fight.

 

What else would he represent if Silver came from the Future and Sonic is already occupying the Past and NEVER goes back into the Past?

Look I'm not Mephiles itself is a bad villain, what I'm saying is that the way they handle him is wrong. In fact I don't actually have nothing against him, I just wished he was handled better.

 

That's why I say he seems like a weak character compared to other villains, because of scenes like that one. My point his, sure Sonic's death is to make Elise cry, but by making Mephiles kill him is, to sonic, like a random person that was passing by just just shot him. And you don't get that feeling of a villain that really tried to kill him and finally doing it, like you would get from if Eggman was the one to do it.

 

About Shadow he can be fighting the past version of Solaris, that doesn't mean he represents the past, since he was the one that actually left his past behind and joined  GUN. And all of the conversations he has with Mephiles says he doesn't care about the past. What I'm saying is if he is supposed to represent the past then the game doesn't explain that very well, and in fact contradicts itself.    

[DBZHedgy]

About Shadow he can be fighting the past version of Solaris, that doesn't mean he represents the past, since he was the one that actually left his past behind and joined  GUN. And all of the conversations he has with Mephiles says he doesn't care about the past. What I'm saying is if he is supposed to represent the past then the game doesn't explain that very well, and in fact contradicts itself.    

I think the fact that Shadow had such a difficult past plays into that a little but nonetheless I see your point.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

Yes, but the game neglects to tell you WHY he's incomplete.

It shows you instead of telling you.

It can be a cop-out if it needs to be. I was pointing out that he can't control where they were, not whether or not they were together. As I stated above, Silver is the one tasked with killing Sonic, not blaze. Mephiles may have lead her astray from Silver for the same reason Diogenes brought up, about the Naive Hedgehog thing. But as I said, that's beside the point.

 

In the video I just showed Sharha clearly says that her power is no match for that of the erazor djinn, when Sonic was asking for power to defeat the first boss of the game. In fact, here's a direct quote from 9:10:

"That must be a monster summoned forth by the Erazor Djinn"

 

He doesn't. It's a common cliche for Video game (and villains in stories or whatever in general) villains to have flaws so that the characters can overcome their plans. Erazor and Mephiles are No different.

 

Go re-watch the cutscenes, brush up on the lore, and/or actually play the games, then get back to me. As of now, I take my leave of this insane merry-go-round of you butchering, misinterpreting, and/or warping the lore to comply with your imagination.

[DBZHedgy]

It shows you instead of telling you.

 

Go and play the games, then get back to me. As of now, I take my leave of this inane merry-go-round.

Dude... I literally just went and booted up Wii to see all of the cutscenes of the game again. They most certainly did not tell you WHY he was incomplete. Just that he was incomplete. The game could've said something as simple as "He must've been incomplete because he didn't sacrifice me", but they didn't.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Have you play the games? Or just wach the cutscenes on youtube?

[DBZHedgy]

Have you play the games? Or just wach the cutscenes on youtube?

I've played them, but the gameplay don't really convey much to the story.

As of now, I take my leave of this insane merry-go-round of you butchering, misinterpreting, and/or warping the lore to comply with your imagination.

Wait one second there.

When I DIRECTLY QUOTE the game, it's misinterpreting?

When I SHOW YOU A CUTSCENE, it's butchering?

and When I outright ALLUDE to the very Nature of the game it's Warping the Lore?

 

The only reason I DID do such things was because YOU SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR EVIDENCE that confirmed this. As such I provided evidence. Saying I'm doing all of the things above is nonsense, because I very clearly gave you the evidence you needed. Now YOU'RE the one who's coping out. If i'm so wrong then why is it that hundreds of Forumers aren't tackling me for being incorrect again huh? The game explicitily states what I assumed, how is that in any way skewing the perception?

[Tara]

I'm going to switch things up a bit.  You can continue with the current discussion as well, but I want to add something different.  Don't ask me why, but last night I decided to sit down and rewatch the cutscenes from Sonic '06.

 

 

Yeah, it was terrible.

 

BUT I was surprised to find there were some things that I thought were interesting.  Not even good, mind you, but interesting.  Before I go down the list, note that I'm pretty sure most of this was just me looking far too deep into things in order to find something salvageable in this story.  Also, nothing I listed here is even good enough to be considered a redeeming quality of the game.  They're just fun little things I thought were interesting about the game.  Enough for me to use a positive adjective to describe them, which in this game is  something quite far and in between.  So let's see.  A list of things I found kind of interesting about Sonic '06.

 

• Soleanna is quite a beautiful city during the festival, and I thought the actual fire show was actually pretty fun to watch.
• Every character has this strangely adorable typing animation that looks like a first grader at the piano for the first time.
• Tails has a few cute moments, which unfortunately doesn't make up for the amount of obnoxious moments.  (Particularly, why does it seem like throughout the entire game, he moves like the chocolate squirrel from Foodfight?)
• The orchestral scores in this game were actually kind of good, whereas Sonic's usual orchestral scores are just kind of bland.  Granted, their context sort of diminishes their power, but a good composition is still a good composition.
• I actually really liked the "if you have time to worry, then run," motif.  That is a very Sonic thing to live by, and I could picture that message translating out better in a game with better story-telling.
• As I mentioned in the status updates, "My Destiny" is probably one of the most beautiful songs to ever come out of the series if you remove the context.
• I thought the scene where Silver gives past-Elise a Chaos Emerald and says "it's a good luck charm" was kind of cute.
• I thought what they were attempting to do with Blaze and Silver's relationship was kind of cute.  It came out awful, mind you, but I liked the idea of Blaze being the older sister figure to Silver, without whom he becomes a tad insecure.  Also, Silver's headache-inducing naivety wouldn't be nearly so bad had it not been accompanied with incredible feats of gullibility and impulsiveness.  Seriously, has Silver never heard of a grain of salt?  That aside, I still kind of like what they were trying to do.  Not love mind you, but like.
• Okay, I know I'm going to get killed for this, but I thought Sonic and Elise's relationship had some meaningful parts, too.  I'm not saying I want to see Elise ever again... because I don't.  Nor am I saying that the game portrayed the two of them as anything more than Twilight levels of vapid, but I thought the romance had some interesting dynamics to it.  During the scene where they're at the beautiful pond (again, one of the few genuinely gorgeous parts of the game, artistically) and Elise says something along the lines of "When this is all over, you're going to leave, right?"  Sonic, not wanting to break Elise's heart but also not wanting to lie to her, seems to hesitate before nodding slowly. (WARNING:  SEVERE LOOKING WAY TOO INTO IT AND/OR MISSING AN OVERALL POINT AHEAD)  I think it's kind of interesting that although the feeling is obviously mutual, the fact that Elise seemed willing to accept that she'd never have Sonic the way she wants to (presumably, but probably not given the questionable writing up to that point) possibly because it would remove a key aspect of his identity, and as such it remove something that she loves about him.  I don't know; I find that endearing... not salvageable given the previous interactions, mind you.  But endearing if you forget about that.

That's a much longer list than I anticipated.  But then, I didn't anticipate having a list.  So there you go.  Those are some tidbits I thought were interesting about Sonic '06.  I just wanted to take a break from the negativity and share these with you.  You're welcome you disagree and harass me for being so stupid in finding anything other than pure shite, and I won't blame you. ^.^ These moments really don't redeem the game at all, as I said.

 

Anyone else have any "interesting" moments from the game to share?  Like I said, doesn't even have to be good.  Just something that made you think anything aside from "oh god why." XP

[Indigo Rush]

No need to feel apologetic! Sonic 06 definitely had some good ideas in there, it's just a shame that it failed to be anything better than terrible overall.

 

I wonder if the story would have been more tolerable if it didn't even feature Sonic characters in the first place. I mean, yeah, it'd be bland, but it wouldn't be butchering these beloved characters at the same time. (Using "beloved" loosely here in regards to Silver such)

 

Actually, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sonic '06 begin it's earliest concepts as a different game altogether, with a focus on those psychokinetic physics? I remember reading something like that somewhere, but at some point they decided that it'd somehow be a good way to bring Sonic into the next generation, so they slapped the blue hedgehog's mug all over it and made a story off of it.

 

Again, I might not be remembering it correctly, and I'll need to find the source, but since it was so far back I'm not sure if I'll be able to locate it again. I'll certainly try, though.

 

Scratch that - I seem to have mistaken. Maybe an alien implanted the memory in me!

 

Vindicated by Nepenthe!

Edited March 27, 2014 by Indigo Rush

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

. If i'm so wrong then why is it that hundreds of Forumers aren't tackling me for being incorrect again huh?

You do realize that said people have pretty much stated that they're sick of dealing with you. And I can't blame them. I too grow tired of having to explain even the most obvious details to someone who refuses to swallow his pride and just let the people who dislike this game be.

[Nepenthe]

Actually, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sonic '06 begin it's earliest concepts as a different game altogether, with a focus on those psychokinetic physics? I remember reading something like that somewhere, but at some point they decided that it'd somehow be a good way to bring Sonic into the next generation, so they slapped the blue hedgehog's mug all over it and made a story off of it.

 

Again, I might not be remembering it correctly, and I'll need to find the source, but since it was so far back I'm not sure if I'll be able to locate it again. I'll certainly try, though.

I only heard that Silver's powers themselves were from another physics-based game, but Sonic 06 was always its own project at some point. Most likely, whatever work they did on it was dropped into the game sometime early on as Silver.

[Indigo Rush]

I only heard that Silver's powers themselves were from another physics-based game, but Sonic 06 was always its own project at some point. Most likely, whatever work they did on it was dropped into the game sometime early on as Silver.

 

That sounds about right, actually. 

 

You posted that just as I had totally written myself off as crazy, too.

[Briraka]

No need to feel apologetic! Sonic 06 definitely had some good ideas in there, it's just a shame that it failed to be anything better than terrible overall.

 

I wonder if the story would have been more tolerable if it didn't even feature Sonic characters in the first place. I mean, yeah, it'd be bland, but it wouldn't be butchering these beloved characters at the same time. (Using "beloved" loosely here in regards to Silver such)

 

Actually, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sonic '06 begin it's earliest concepts as a different game altogether, with a focus on those psychokinetic physics? I remember reading something like that somewhere, but at some point they decided that it'd somehow be a good way to bring Sonic into the next generation, so they slapped the blue hedgehog's mug all over it and made a story off of it.

 

Again, I might not be remembering it correctly, and I'll need to find the source, but since it was so far back I'm not sure if I'll be able to locate it again. I'll certainly try, though.

I wouldn't be surprised if Shadow and Silver's stories started as a lazy J-RPG, and then shoehorned Sonic and Eggman into the mixing pot.

[FriendBot]

I kind of think that the relationship between Sonic and Elise should be friends and nothing more. I mean how could a girl he only met for a few days can even be considered as a love interest? I mean it would have been a lot less offensive if it was like that, like that one episode from Sonic X with that wheelchair girl. If the relationship between Sonic and Elise would have been like that one decent episode I wouldn't have a problem with Elise all that much to be honest.  

[Indigo Rush]

You know what an interesting role reversal would be?

 

Sonic having the hots for Elise, instead of vice versa.

 

Not sure how that would work, but it could have made for some funny moments.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I dont even think Sonic and Elises relations were suppose to be romance on either side. I dont think Elise is in love with Sonic. She had a connection like a close friend. She kiss him to carry out her wish, not because she was in love.

[Briraka]

You know what an interesting role reversal would be?

 

Sonic having the hots for Elise, instead of vice versa.

 

Not sure how that would work, but it could have made for some funny moments.

But Sonic isn't Mario! He doesn't save princesses because saving princesses isn't cool!

[Indigo Rush]

I dont even think Sonic and Elises relations were suppose to be romance on either side. I dont think Elise is in love with Sonic. She had a connection like a close friend. She kiss him to carry out her wish, not because she was in love.

 

Actually, it's pretty blatant that Elise wants some blue spiky tail:

 

 

 

 

any charm that was intended during this scene is negated by Amy's unchanging, cold, dead face

[SlickEvan]

Ok is it just me or is Elises' in game model horrible. I almost wanted barf at that thumbnail. Excuse the hyperbole, about the barf not the model, that thing is horrendous. But the CG one looks just fine but the in-game... what did they do to you. Also I think lanky Sonic wasn't a completely bad concept but was carried out awkwardly. Look at Tails, looks pretty standard. Look at Knuckles, oh my word... look at Sonic, well it just looks.. awkward. Like if the shoes were actually maybe smaller and his quills actually shorter could fix a few problems. Or if they'd went with smaller limbs, they have this Riders thing going and to me it's weird. I'd wish they actually went the Boom route. Just say... thinner yeah thinner.

That was something good about it, right?