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Official Sonic 2006 topic


thedarkknight

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If that's what you're trying to argue, than you're pretty much up the creek without a paddle. Being almost as fast, not even the same speed is no where near as jarring as 06's blunder where someone who is not meant to faster than Sonic, all of a sudden is faster than him. I know you like 06, but it's undeniable that Omega is uncharacteristically faster than Sonic in 06. Heck, even Blaze is apparently faster than Sonic in 06, which doesn't make a flipping lick of sense.

 

This is pretty much a cop out response to be honest.

I've already shown that a robot built by Eggman can surpass Sonic's speed

I've already shown that most, if not, all of the main cast can keep up with Sonic

and I've reasoned that having that insignificantly and slightly greater speed when compared to Sonic wasn't impossible.

 

As a response, this is pretty much the equivalent of ignoring the rebuttal process and continuing to push your argument regardless. How does being uncharacteristically faster than Sonic change any of the preceding evidence and arguments?

 

Lastly, despite all of this debate, Sonic is still the fastest character in the game, not only because of the Blue Gem, or the Mach Speed sections, but because of his Spindash as well.

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Pretty sure that's their ranking overall and not specifically referring to speed.

The speed of the speed characters is exactly what it's referring to, it literally says speed.

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Story-wise, no one is ever faster than Sonic. That's just a rule of thumb (you know, fastest thing alive and all that).

 

However, since we're talking about gameplay here, the reason why it's stupid for Omega to be faster than Sonic is this:

 

Never before, in the history of the series (that I know of at least), has any playable character been faster than Sonic. They may have been the same speed or been comparable speed-wise, but never to my knowledge has anyone been faster.

 

So, that in mind, why is a big, bulky Eggman robot, that has actually been shown before to be slower than Sonic, all of sudden faster than the main character Sonic the Hedgehog who, more often than not, has been shown to be the fastest character in the series.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's the problem people have with it.

 

 

 

Now, to be honest, it's not too big of a problem, especially not for me (considering I thoroughly enjoy 06). But there's really no reason for it to be that way. Also, funnily enough, while playing the game myself, I never really felt Omega was faster than Sonic. If anything he felt slower. But whatever.

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The speed of the speed characters is exactly what it's referring to, it literally says speed.

 

Just checked, and yep, you're right.

But, still useless to point that out, because Rouge and Omega, and Shadow the Hedgehog's game, and Metal Sonic etc, etc.

 

Story-wise, no one is ever faster than Sonic. That's just a rule of thumb (you know, fastest thing alive and all that).

However, since we're talking about gameplay here, the reason why it's stupid for Omega to be faster than Sonic is this:

Never before, in the history of the series (that I know of at least), has any playable character been faster than Sonic. They may have been the same speed or been comparable speed-wise, but never to my knowledge has anyone been faster.

So, that in mind, why is a big, bulky Eggman robot, that has actually been shown before to be slower than Sonic, all of sudden faster than the main character Sonic the Hedgehog who, more often than not, has been shown to be the fastest character in the series.

I'm pretty sure that's the problem people have with it.

Now, to be honest, it's not too big of a problem, especially not for me (considering I thoroughly enjoy 06). But there's really no reason for it to be that way. 

 

The games have also shown Omega to be capable of keeping up with one of the fastest characters in the games though :T 

vn7eAP.gif 

 

Also, again Eggman, a human. Not once, not twice, but 3 times. [Even his escape vessels happen to be faster than Sonic in a few instances]

s2-stages-deathegg2img2full.png tumblr_inline_necgb0msD11sgkg5t.gif Sonic-the-Hedgehog-4-Episode-1-small-336 

 

Then there's Metal Sonic, a robot created by Eggman, something that Omega also happens to be.

vZZ9NB.gif 

 

Simply because he was slower, it doesn't mean that he can't go any faster. I mean, like, if Sonic is walking through a stage, that doesn't mean it's his fastest speed. In fact, the characters have never really been hit by a speed-o-meter until Sonic Unleashed, and that was exclusively Sonic.

Regardless of whether or not it's canon, it can't really be argued that it isn't possible, and therefore a major screw-up.

And to be frank, it honestly doesn't matter in the long run. We already know that Sonic is the fastest, in-universe, and we already know that Sonic can physically control his own speed (especially since he has 3 ways to become much faster than Omega could ever hope to be) so being that slow by default doesn't necessarily make Omega actually faster than Sonic (especially because of the 3 methods mentioned earlier).

 

Also, funnily enough, while playing the game myself, I never really felt Omega was faster than Sonic. If anything he felt slower. But whatever.

 

That's probably because he isn't :V

sssssshhhh, it's a secret though

400px-Kingdomval.png 

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On 5/29/2015 at 9:24 PM, DBZHedgy said:

This is pretty much a cop out response to be honest.

I've already shown that a robot built by Eggman can surpass Sonic's speed

I've already shown that most, if not, all of the main cast can keep up with Sonic

and I've reasoned that having that insignificantly and slightly greater speed when compared to Sonic wasn't impossible.

 

Again, you fail to realize that this was never about characters being able to keep up with Sonic despite him still being the fastest. This about how gameplay-wise, as a canon playable character, Omega who isn't Metal Sonic and wasn't designed to be as fast as Sonic, is faster than Sonic by default in 2006, which is where 06 really got thing wrong.

 

You've tried dancing around it by bringing in other games, yet even the points you've tried using haven't been up to snuff.

 

Metal Sonic, a robot purposefully designed to match and even at times exceed Sonic's speed, okay. It makes sense for Metal Sonic to be a match for Sonic in the speed department. But Omega of all characters wasn't designed to be as fast as Sonic, heck him being a power class in Heroes, makes him notably slower than Sonic.

 

Given past history, once again it's ridiculous to have Omega and arguably Blaze( who in the Rush games is also notably slower than Sonic)'s default speed(s) to be more than Sonic's default speed in the game.

 

And what kind of insane downgrade is it for Sonic to need power ups and exclusive sections in the game for him to even attain being the fastest character when he should be that by default, without any explanation whatsoever as why he's not the fastest here??

 

That is what you have yet to actually prove wrong.

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Again, you fail to realize that this was never about characters being able to keep up with Sonic despite him still being the fastest. This about how gameplay-wise, as a canon playable character, Omega who isn't Metal Sonic and wasn't designed to be as fast as Sonic, is faster than Sonic by default in 2006, which is where 06 really got thing wrong.

 

That is what you have yet to actually prove wrong.

 

I wasn't specifically referring to the characters in General, but the characters, and an accentuated focus on Omega, since he's a part of the group of characters. 

 

I'm a bit confused by the logistics of your statement.

Are you trying to say that since Sonic is undoubtable faster than Shadow in 06, it means that Shadow is literally incapable of keeping up with Sonic? 

 

Forget that Dr. Eggman is capable of making machinery that can keep up or even surpass Sonic's, and the idea that he wouldn't implement that into one of his strongest creations. That makes plenty of sense.

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Again, you fail to realize that this was never about characters being able to keep up with Sonic despite him still being the fastest. This about how gameplay-wise, as a canon playable character, Omega who isn't Metal Sonic and wasn't designed to be as fast as Sonic, is faster than Sonic by default in 2006, which is where 06 really got thing wrong.

 

You've tried dancing around it by bringing in other games, yet even the points you've tried using haven't been up to snuff.

 

Metal Sonic, a robot purposefully designed to match and even at times exceed Sonic's speed, okay, it would sense for Metal Sonic to be a match for Sonic in the speed department. But Omega of all characters wasn't designed to be as fast as Sonic, heck him being a power class in Heroes, makes him notably slower than Sonic.

 

Given past history, once again it's ridiculous to have Omega and arguably Blaze( who in the Rush games is also notably slower than Sonic)'s default speed(s) to be more than Sonic's default speed in the game.

 

And what kind of insane downgrade is it for Sonic to need power ups and exclusive sections in the game for him to even attain being the fastest character when he should be that by deafult, without any explanation whatsoever as why he's not the fastest here.

 

That is what you have yet to actually prove wrong.

Oh and by the by, DBZ your arguments concerning Heroes have also pointed out another bullet point of how ludicrous 06's speeds are.

 

Okay, so you claim, that this fact

The speed of the speed characters is exactly what it's referring to, it literally says speed.

is worthless because allegedly the majority could keep up with Shadow, although who's actually played the games would know how untrue in actuality that is when you actually compare Team Dark's speed in gameplay to Rose and Chaotix.

 

However, you may have forgotten another crucial detail of 06; that being that Shadow is notably slower than Sonic! So in essence, the others being able to almost keep up with the likes of Shadow, are pointless when trying to using those stats to compare them to Sonic in later games such as 06.

 

Oh, also, since so many people could supposedly keep up, can you also explain why the heck, Tails, Knuckles, Rouge,  and especially Amy in even comparison to Shadow who you claim they could keep up with, are so extremely slow now too?

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This game is just full of references to SA1 and SA2.

This game copies both SA games like...a lot, for example it has a similar cutscene setup, one really good looking one every now and then, then the rest are made with in game assets and have really odd looking movements. Not to mention the story is just a more dramatic version of SA1. 

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Oh and by the by, DBZ your arguments concerning Heroes have also pointed out another bullet point of how ludicrous 06's speeds are.

 

Not really, there are plenty of games where a character's speed is shifted dramatically..

 

Amy in Sadx = snail's pace

Amy in Sa2b = moderately fast, but still not as fast as Sonic

Amy in Heroes = Much, MUCH, faster, but still not as fast as Sonic

Amy in Shadow the Hedgehog = As fast as Shadow

Amy in 06 = Back to snail's pace

[Not sure where she stands in Sonic Advance though]

 

Okay, so you claim, that this fact

is worthless because allegedly the majority could keep up with Shadow, although who's actually played the games would know how untrue in actuality that is when you actually compare Team Dark's speed in gameplay to Rose and Chaotix.

 

I think you missed this:

 

StaticMania, on 29 May 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:snapback.png

The speed of the speed characters is exactly what it's referring to, it literally says speed.

Just checked, and yep, you're right.

But, still useless to point that out, because Rouge and Omega, and Shadow the Hedgehog's game, and Metal Sonic etc, etc.

 

However, you may have forgotten another crucial detail of 06; that being that Shadow is notably slower than Sonic! So in essence, the others being able to almost keep up with the likes of Shadow, are pointless when trying to using those stats to compare them to Sonic in later games such as 06.

How did I forget that if I literally just used that as a counterargument to your case.

I'm a bit confused by the logistics of your statement.

Are you trying to say that since Sonic is undoubtable faster than Shadow in 06, it means that Shadow is literally incapable of keeping up with Sonic? 

 

 

Oh, also, since so many people could supposedly keep up, can you also explain why the heck, Tails, Knuckles, Rouge,  and especially Amy in even comparison to Shadow who you claim they could keep up with, are so extremely slow now too?

Not really, but that's irrelevant.

Regardless, you are aware that they are in control of their legs and how fast they run, correct? What exactly is so difficult in simply slowing down?

 

Can you explain why Silver (who was previously just as slow as Amy Rose), Knuckles, and Shadow can keep up with and directly compete against Sonic's speed in Sonic Rivals?

Can you also explain why Rouge, Espio, and Tails can also do just that in the sequel? 

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Omega's faster than Sonic?

Wouldn't surprise me given the game, but I have to agree that he felt slower to me.

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And what kind of insane downgrade is it for Sonic to need power ups and exclusive sections in the game for him to even attain being the fastest character when he should be that by deafult, without any explanation whatsoever as why he's not the fastest here.

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The Spindash is readily available for you as soon as the game starts so...

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Why should Sonic have to use a flipping spindash to actually be fast? Stooping to these defenses just goes to show more of 06's problem.

 

>Implying that the spindash was never used for speed purposes, gaining speed, or otherwise

 

wat  :mellow:

 

I know you wish that to be the case, but it isn't. Saying such is blatantly ignoring one of the mass criticisims issued about that game, with how ssslow the mass majority are. Something past Sonic games wisely avoided doing.

 

You completely missed the point.

It's irrelevant because of how fast they were before-hand and afterwards. 

 

The way you interpret this situation counters itself from both sides really. 

One side being that most of the characters have been capable of going as fast as Sonic at one point

and

On another side most of the characters have been seen speed capping not even close to Sonic's speed

So regardless, you can't really prove that anything is out of place.

 

Also, according to your logic, the characters can certainly slow down if they feel ever so inclined. Not really sure why that can't be the case here.

If I were to walk down the street casually, would you immediately jump to the conclusion that it is how fast I can go? 

If I were to drive down a street at 30mph would you immediately assume that this is how fast my car can go?

Sonic's Mach Speed sections showcase how fast he's capable of going. Given that he's extremely vulnerable when going so fast, why would he need to go as fast as possible until the need arose?

This is such faulty logic that you're going off of.

 

More competent programming than 06 and gameplay also for the sake of the game, obviously.

Yet another cop out  :rolleyes:

You realize that these instances pretty much squashes your rebuttals right?

Given that the very same people that were not even close to being as fast as Sonic are suddenly not only as fast as he is, but can actually beat him in a foot race.

 

Not to mention the fact that Silver grows a brain to the point where he actually thinks to us his powers to enhanced his speed at times.

Uhm what? 

Didn't he do that very same thing in the opening as well as it being a part of his gameplay?

You also realize that his psychokinetic power had little to nothing to do with what his feet were doing to the ground... you know, good old fashioned running

 

On ze the contrary, your example shows a consistent rise in her speed, which is actually believable given development. And then comes the out of place drop, come Sonic 06, again showing how 06 is the stain of the family here. Heck, she's even slower in 06 than she was in Adventure 1.

Honestly doubt development has anything to do with it to be frank.

If this were the case than Tails' quip about not being able to keep up with Sonic in Sonic Heroes would be entirely absent given how long he's been his partner.

 

Oh definitely, it's so obvious that Amy was ONLY ever slow in Sonic 06. No arguing there.

 

Heh, how exactly are you so sure she's slower in Adventure when compared to her 06 appearance? 

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Stop dodging the question and explain why Sonic needs all these special abilities and the usage of the broken spindash in 06 to actually be fast compared tot he likes of Omega and Blaze. WHy are they faster than him in his own game??? There's no legitimate excuse for such blasphemy in 06.


Yet another cop out  :rolleyes:

You realize that these instances pretty much squashes your rebuttals right?

Now that's just a bold-faced lie and a shallow bluff too. Anyone here can see that your question was answered in full without any holes left. Obviously there's more competent programming and for the sake of Rivals' gameplay, the movesets are identical plain and simple.

 

If this were the case than Tails' quip about not being able to keep up with Sonic in Sonic Heroes would be entirely absent given how long he's been his partner.

And via this yet again, you've helped reveal how far off track 06 drove off from logical sense concerning the franchise.


It's irrelevant because of how fast they were before-hand and afterwards. 

Now then stop trying to use such to defend 06. You keep trying and failing to use other games that supposedly did what 06 dared to do, even when they don't.

 

Anything I didn't respond to, has failed to even warrant a response.

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Stop dodging the question and explain why Sonic needs all these special abilities and the usage of the broken spindash in 06 to actually be fast compared tot he likes of Omega and Blaze.

 

Anything I didn't respond to, has failed to even warrant a response.

 

I smell hypocrisy...

First off, I didn't even dodge any questions, I gave a response to every little statement about it being out of place and completely wrong, while you are literally outright ignoring plenty of good counterarguments that detriment your argument.

 

How exactly does that work again? You just get to decide what is, and what isn't logistical? Yeah that makes sense.

How about you actually respond to those and show me just how wrong I am instead implying I'm wrong with no backup whatsoever as well as being a hypocrite and dodging the questions. You do this so frequently, I practically expected it from you.

 

WHy are they faster than him in his own game??? There's no legitimate excuse for such blasphemy in 06.

They aren't though, enough said.

This 'default speed' bullcrap is downright stupid because of the walking and car example I gave.

 

It's also stupid when you go back to my Sonic Rivals example where more than 6 organic organisms can beat Sonic in a foot race.

"There's no legitimate excuse for such blasphemy in 06 Sonic Rivals" 

It's even more hilarious that you consider 06 to be blasphemous when Sonic /can/ go MUCH faster than any of them in the Mach speed sections, but in Rivals he literally has to run behind them, or cheat to get in front of them.

 

Before you jump to the conclusion that it's so out of place in Sonic 06, a game where he can actually go faster than them by default, Why don't you explain why so many people can do it in Sonic Rivals first. Oh wait, lemme guess, "because it's better programmed", that isn't an in-universe explanation like the one you asked for for 06, so it would be hypocritical for you to use that as an actual response. Try again.

 

Now that's just a bold-faced lie and a shallow bluff too. Anyone here can see that your question was answered in full without any holes left. Obviously there's more competent programming and for the sake of Rivals' gameplay, the movesets are identical plain and simple.Anything I didn't respond to, has failed to even warrant a response.

 

No it isn't. Read the above.

On top of that, whatever happened to: 

 

WHy are they faster than him in his own game???

 

You're contradicting yourself in your reasoning, and quite frankly it doesn't make any sense at all.

Probably because your obviously making an unneeded exception for Sonic Rivals for no reason whatsoever so...

I could say that 06 is fun to play or has better abilities for specific characters, but that would literally have nothing to do with Sonic Rivals. In other words, follow your own logic instead of contradicting it.

 

And via this yet again, you've helped reveal how far off track 06 drove off from logical sense concerning the franchise.

Now then stop trying to use such to defend 06. You keep trying and failing to use other games that supposedly did what 06 dared to do, even when they don't.

When I said 'because of how fast they were before-hand and afterwards.' you realize I was talking about how slow and fast they were beforehand and afterwards right?

 

I also love how you were first campaigning that Omega and Blaze being too fast was the problem because Sonic should be the only fast one, and now you're also concluding that everyone else being slower than Sonic is a problem because of gameplay or whatever.

That makes so much sense.

You're pretty much saying that if they aren't right behind Sonic like in Advance or Heroes, then it's an unfathomable gaming sin that should be purged, it's completely ridiculous, and you've yet to actually explain WHY that's the logic you're working from.

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Okay this isn't making sense. Are you actually confusing "in-universe" with actual gameplay? That's ludicrous.

Also, You're putting absolutist words in my mouth that don't at all convey my points on why 06, a game that unlike the Rivals series, doesn't have the excuse of having racing amongst each other as its main gameplay, is at fault for having Omega and arguably Blaze in the core gameplay, by default being faster than Sonic (not to mention hosting a different more fit Silver for the new canon thanks to wiping out Solaris from existence). Not to mention how the gem that speeds him up also works horribly, thus tagged Seri the incentive to even use it.

Honestly, you still haven't brought up any legit case of a character surpassing Sonic's speed in a gauge that didn't host a legitimate reason, like in 06.

Heck, this sort if debate was even hosted beforehand against you in thus very thread in this post where even video evidence was brought down on your case. Heck, even people who like 06 admit that this hand did in fact handle the concept of speeds asking the characters given the gameplay very poorly.

Whether or not you accept it, I believe the point has been well made enough at this point.

Nite here's a question I'll see if your can answer:Can you actually defend the Omega>Sonic speed issue of 06 without bringing up irrelevant games of the series that still don't even stoop to 06's lows in that department?

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Okay this isn't making sense. Are you actually confusing "in-universe" with actual gameplay? That's ludicrous.

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Thank you Tara. Also, come to think of it, this debate was rather pointless since the opposition had already admitted to Omega being faster than Sonic.

 

 

I already said that this was true... but this isn't the only instance where this happens.

 

Not to mention the fact that this is the only instance where Omega of all characters is faster than flipping Sonic.
 

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Also, come to think of it, this debate was rather pointless since the opposition had already admitted to Omega being faster than Sonic.

 

I think you missed it again so I'll just put it here for safe keeping :)

 

Sonic is still undeniably the fastest character in 06

Are you really going to sit here and tell me that he isn't?

 

On top of this, the debate wasn't about whether or not he's fastest, but rather whether or not it was wrong for him to be so fast.

 

Not to mention the fact that this is the only instance where Omega of all characters is faster than flipping Sonic.

 

This is still irrelevant because Sonic Heroes, Sonic Rivals and Shadow the Hedgehog :T

Games in which Amy, Knuckles, Tails, Espio, Charmy, OMEGA, Silver, and Rouge all happen to be as fast or even faster than Sonic.

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Are you really going to sit here and tell me that he isn't?

Do you really need to ask that, considering how infamous a problem that is with 06?

 

This is still irrelevant because Sonic Heroes, Sonic Rivals and Shadow the Hedgehog

Must we again repeat why Sonic Heroes, (a game where Sonic has a purpose for slowing down, not to mention where Team Rose and Chaotix are still slower in speed), Shadow the Hedgehog ( a game which isn't even Sonic's own game, let alone a representation of everyone's speed compared to Sonic, and Rivals (which has a racing gameplay style and obstacles to slow down characters, including the fact that winning a race against someone doesn't automatically make you faster than them) aren't up to snuff to support your allegations?

 

On top of this, the debate wasn't about whether or not he's fastest, but rather whether or not it was wrong for him to be so fast.

Actually it was until you tried changing it to a debate of "Is 06 truly the only game to do that" after losing the initial debate on Sonic's standard speed in 06 being slower than Omega's.

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Do you really need to ask that, considering how infamous a problem that is with 06?

 

Sonic's still the fastest character in the game, man.

 

Must we again repeat why Sonic Heroes, (a game where Sonic has a purpose for slowing down, not to mention where Team Rose and Chaotix are still slower in speed), Shadow the Hedgehog ( a game which isn't even Sonic's own game, let alone a representation of everyone's speed compared to Sonic, and Rivals (which has a racing gameplay style and obstacles to slow down characters, including the fact that winning a race against someone doesn't automatically make you faster than them) aren't up to snuff to support your allegations?

 

I guess we might just need to repeat it because it's pretty clear that Shadow and Sonic run at the same speed, even outside of racing games, and since Shadow's game has characters that can keep up with him, then that pretty much equates their speed to Sonic's. Not sure why this isn't valid though...

 

About Rivals, I'm pretty sure that without the obstacles they all still clock out close to Sonic's speed, otherwise winning would be pretty much impossible for anyone except Sonic.

 

Actually it was until you tried changing it to a debate of "Is 06 truly the only game to do that" after losing the initial debate on Sonic's standard speed in 06 being slower than Omega's.

 

I didn't change it tho...

As we were discussing this, you pointed out that Sonic 06 was the black sheep of the bunch, and I challenged that; in fact, this "Is 06 truly the only game to do that" thesis hinges on the previous discussion.

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Updates on the 2006 pc "porting" by Gistix. This is looking good, I'm actually hyped for the possibilities.

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Yeah this guy is doing some amazing work, if were never gonna get a PC port of 2006 this will suit.

Just wish he had more of a team, it just sounds like him and another guy and while that keeps things neat and contained it also slows things down, 2006 2D suffered from that.

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