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thedarkknight

Official Sonic 2006 topic

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 Next sonic 00Shadow-largeBlaze06

I have a question.  Would it have been a better idea to have Blaze as the third main character in '06?

Think about it.  Yeah her backstory got changed but at least fans were already familiar with her character,  Also, after playing the game myself, she is a much more fun character to play with than Silver (her speed and abilities are better than Sonic's!).  If anything, Silver should have been her sidekick.  What do you guys think?  Would making Blaze the third main be good or am I just replacing one bad idea with another?

Edited by FireBird75

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Well, I really don't know how to answer your question.

Personally, I liked Silver as the 3rd main character. But I don't think of Silver's crew as Silver being the main hero and Blaze is the sidekick, but I see them as an equal team.

As far as the gameplay go, I'll just say that it would have been nice to have a couple more Blaze stages in Silver's story. But to go and completely switch out the 2 characters just because we already know Blaze? I think if they done that, they would have to have played around with Blaze's story a little bit, because we all know of the confusion of her being there whenever she's supposed to be in the Sol Dimension guarding the Sol Emeralds.

So really, it could have made an interesting story if they could have tied in Blaze being from the Sol Dimension (originally) with the story, and somehow made it more sense. I'm really at a neutral standpoint with your idea, I don't see it as bad or good.

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 Next sonic 00Shadow-largeBlaze06

I have a question.  Would it have been a better idea to have Blaze as the third main character in '06?

Think about it.  Yeah her backstory got changed but at least fans were already familiar with her character,  Also, after playing the game myself, she is a much more fun character to play with than Silver (her speed and abilities are better than Sonic's!).  If anything, Silver should have been her sidekick.  What do you guys think?  Would making Blaze the third main be good or am I just replacing one bad idea with another?

honestly just give silver blaze's speed and he wouldn't have been that terrible. his telekinesis is a really interesting concept, it was just handled poorly

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I hear that suggestion a lot, and honestly I think the people suggesting it are really underestimating the issues with Silver's core gameplay to think they can all be solved by a mere speed cap increase. Of course, you hear a lot about this with '06 in general - that the overarching problems with the game are simple miscalculations rather than broad, calamitous fuckups with the core of the game's concept.

First of all, speed and precision aiming with projectiles tends not to work hand in hand with 3D platforming gameplay, especially the kind of brand that handles as loosely as Sonic's. '06 isn't the only place this has been true. ShTH exemplifies this by being virtually impossible to aim unless you come to a damn near complete stop, and this is the very root of Silver's speed cut - because he's basically required to be at that speed in order to aim and hit things consistently, so a speed increase would actually be extremely counterintuitive, especially if we're talking of boosting it to Blaze levels. This is to say nothing of the fact that '06 isn't a third person shooter, where there is never any real doubt as to where your projectiles are facing, and the fact that '06's camera is so fucking awful you're repeatedly required to aim at offscreen enemies in certain sections, telekinesis or no.

Secondly, Silver's gameplay was built with the purpose of exploiting an advanced physics engine on its objects, and let's just be blunt about this one, the physics in this game were completely fucked right from the start:

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Whatever isn't floaty and limp will go flying into the sunset at the drop of a coin. The damage you deal isn't even determined by mass or velocity anyway, but by a little hitbox Silver applies to them when he grabs and throws, which is a pretty gross misunderstanding of how physics actually work. And yet for all the places '06s understanding of physics is hilariously wrong, it's always accurate in only the places it causes the most frustration - the main example being that your own objects collide with one another when you're trying to throw them, throwing your aim way off if not preventing them from dealing damage altogether. Again, increasing running speed would only augment these issues further - if the boulders you're carrying don't fly unpredictably into walls and each other while they're struggling to keep up, they'll probably strike you in the back of the head when you try to throw one on the move.

Finally, I feel it has to be said: it's really not even all that fun? A lot of Silver's gameplay as envisioned as '06 isn't very proactive - most of it is either running and flailing around environments in a hasty search for something to throw at your enemy, or a tedious waiting game to see how many bullets you have to dodge before enemies start shooting grabbable missiles at you. And I think it's pretty telling that they have to fly in slow motion to be caught at all, which doesn't just look silly, it also clashes with everyone else's gameplay, wherein dodging all that shit is actually expected to be some semblance of a challenge. What I find curious most of all was that Silver was billed as this exact change of pace right from the start, as though being slow was supposed to be a meaningful change of pace in a series that's literally all about going fast - a true spectacle of misguidance built on the lack of realization that this wouldn't be perceived as a need if Sonic himself and the playstyles based off him were fun in their own right.

Do I think there's a place for Telekinesis in the series? I certainly don't doubt it. But making it gel with the rest of the series is nowhere near as simple as a speed boost - the very core of it clashes with Sonic on such a level that they're practically different games, and you'd have to pretty much overhaul the whole thing to make it work. Which again, is true of '06 as a whole when you think about it.

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I can agree with most of what you've said, but I feel like you're conflating the idea of little ammo for Silver. It is so far and few inbetween for Silver to be confronted with enemies and he doesn't have anything to smash their faces in with, usually because either there is already plenty of things to use to attack the enemies with or you can just stun the enemies and fling them to kingdom come. If this isn't the case, it's either a boss or it's one of those big monster things that can't be stunned, in which case you don't need to scramble for anything to hit them with since they practically hand you something to attack them with.

I also agree that Silver doesn't really need to be sped up, the only area in which it's a real problem is in the hub worlds which were way too big for each of the characters to traverse through without taking a bit too much time, but at least in Soleanna Castle Town and New City there are a bunch of people to talk to and mission to start. Soleanna forest is pretty bland and open for no real reason.

In Silver's action stages, his pace is just right.

 

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, give us a playable (nerfed if you must) version of Silver from Generations HD. Complete with the psychic powers, speed gliding, and wave/knife skills to back him up when there's nothing to toss.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, give us a playable (nerfed if you must) version of Silver from Generations HD. Complete with the psychic powers, speed gliding, and wave/knife skills to back him up when there's nothing to toss.

I'd like that, but why even bother using telekinesis to toss things if you can just attack normally? Seems counterintuitive.

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I can agree with most of what you've said, but I feel like you're conflating the idea of little ammo for Silver. It is so far and few inbetween for Silver to be confronted with enemies and he doesn't have anything to smash their faces in with, usually because either there is already plenty of things to use to attack the enemies with or you can just stun the enemies and fling them to kingdom come. If this isn't the case, it's either a boss or it's one of those big monster things that can't be stunned, in which case you don't need to scramble for anything to hit them with since they practically hand you something to attack them with.

Again, that's exactly the problem - you rarely get to fight on your own terms. Whenever there's nothing around to throw (and it does happen, make no mistake) it becomes a boring waiting game of holding down the right trigger until they give you something to throw back. Even when there is environmental objects to throw it usually amounts to bouncing the same metal crate off the same enemy over and over (bearing in mind that multiple pickups tend to bump into each other, namely the Havok ones) until their HP dwindles, which is every bit as tedious as spamming Homing Attacks over and over without the benefit that you can accomplish it with a single button press. Stunning enemies doesn't become an option until fairly late into the game (as late as Kingdom Valley, if I remember right? Pretty sure that's roughly where the shockwave move becomes buyable) because like Amy's melee, Silver's default attackbox is so small it almost overlaps his own hitbox. It all seems like a massive, pointless barrier to flow when you could just pull boulders out of the ground ala Knuckles and/or merge the grab and stun functions into a single Force Push move.

But that brings me to this:

I also agree that Silver doesn't really need to be sped up

Which despite any pretense I might have presented, wasn't even my main point. The issue at hand wasn't that Silver didn't need to be sped up - in fact my point was that it would take a lot more than that to make him gel with a Sonic game properly because he was always presented as a deliberate outlier when he had absolutely no reason to be, and that insinutating that alone would make Silver work is frankly, naieve and borderline childish. And despite what I'd suggested above, that would ring no less true if any of it were taken to heart. At best, it would mean Silver would function properly in his own environment, but he'd still remain an embodiment of exactly the problems people scapegoat a bulging cast of playable characters for - that they simply have little to nothing to do with Sonic.

If it were up to me? I'd just take aiming out of the equation altogether and redo Silver's telekinesis from the ground up into something that doesn't need his speed to be crippled in order to work. Make his abilities less for the benefit of combat and more for the sake of platforming, like most of the key abilities of characters before him. Random example: let him grab one object regardless of context in the loose direction he's facing, and allow him to throw it, sure. But then add in the ability to vault off it for a jump boost, Klonoa style. Not only is that every bit as potent in platforming as the Homing Attack (albiet trading lateral mobility for vertical, granted), it also rolls up practically every useful ability he already had - grabbing, item surfing and floating - into a single move. Stuff like that is exactly what Silver needs the most - not so much expecting the game's mechanics to adapt to serve him, but instead for him to adapt to serve the game's mechanics.

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I'd like that, but why even bother using telekinesis to toss things if you can just attack normally? Seems counterintuitive.

Like I said, it's for when there isn't really much to throw. That sort of stuff really stank the mess out of Silver's campaign. 

Not to mention how frustratingly weak and limited it could be. 

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 the only reason most people hate Sonic '06 is because they were told that they were supposed to 

...are you taking the fucking piss?

People hate Sonic '06 because they played it and figured out it fell way below even the standards ShTH had set for the franchise, let alone the standards of its own genre wherein physics break on a whim and kill you through no fault of your own. People hate Sonic '06 because they've played it and figured out it's mind-numbingly repetitive even when it does work. People hate Sonic '06 because they played it and found it was loaded with plotholes, narm, flanderization and one of the most forced romance plots I've ever seen. People hate Sonic '06 even when they haven't played it because many of its most glaring flaws are obvious on a glance, and many that aren't are covered in great objective detail by various people all over the internet because for some unknown reason white knights choose to believe there's little actually wrong with Sonic '06 besides bugs and time constraints. And people hate Sonic '06 even when they haven't played it because it almost singlehandedly sank the reputation of the franchise into a pothole the likes of which can only be compared to Daikatana and Bomberman Act Zero, and to this day they still haven't reasonably recovered from it.

People don't hate it because they're sheeple who will hate anything the internet tells them to just because. Every bit of noteriety Sonic '06 has earned is more than deserved. Don't fucking kid yourself.

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 the only reason most people hate Sonic '06 is because they were told that they were supposed to 

Well..... thats not true man.

Yes there are some fans who think they have to hate the game or they get made fun of. But most people hate the game because they fucking played it and they just dont like it. Simple.  I may think its OK, you may think its OK but its not a good game at all. 

Edited by Mikyeong

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It's actually not bait at all. Whatsoever.

Ok, it is but not in the way you're thinking in your Nepentbrain. I obviously have to phrase my statements and opinions in a provocative way that gets people's attention and urges them to respond and possibly start a discussion. Instead of just going into a thread to say "yeah man." or some other room temperature water lookin' ass, kraft dinner lookin ass post

Its not just random trolling to piss people off and cackle behind my keyboard at how mad people are getting. But that is a plus.

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but you seem just genuine enough not to just kick out immediately. But I'm warning you now you've got one more chance to say some dumb shit to me or anyone else before you get banned permanently.

Just as well, being deliberately provocative is called trolling, which is against the rules. If you want to start a discussion, post at least a paragraph with a well-founded arguments free of ad hominems like "everyone is sheeple." We don't ask for much around here.

It's not even like I can argue anyway, right?

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It's not even like I can argue anyway, right?

Not if you're not putting up an actual argument, no. You're literally trying to make everyone else part of the problem you made up. By responding to people not liking this game they way you have, you've associated yourself with the less than ideal opinion that already exists around people that unironically believe this is a great game. What exactly is the issue with just saying the reasons you like the game instead of making up reasons other's don't?

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Not if you're not putting up an actual argument, no. You're literally trying to make everyone else part of the problem you made up. By responding to people not liking this game they way you have, you've associated yourself with the less than ideal opinion that already exists around people that unironically believe this is a great game. What exactly is the issue with just saying the reasons you like the game instead of making up reasons other's don't?

Because that's not my style. Nobody cares about my opinion and why I like the game, why would I post that? It's not relevant to anybody and any discussion coming from it will end in an agreement to disagree.

People want to talk about themselves, what they think and how right they are so short and sweet statements that urge people to choose a side and and debate with passion are the perfect springboard to ignite a discussion. Apparently that's "trolling" now.

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Because that's not my style. Nobody cares about my opinion and why I like the game, why would I post that? It's not relevant to anybody and any discussion coming from it will end in an agreement to disagree.

Oh, so just because you can't take people disagreeing with you, you'd rather blurt out ridiculous nonsense than just not post? You're actively making people less likely to listen to you by doing this.

 

People want to talk about themselves, what they think and how right they are so short and sweet statements that urge people to choose a side and and debate with passion are the perfect springboard to ignite a discussion. Apparently that's "trolling" now.

Oh wait, but you didn't do that. You decided that the people who don't like 06 are a hive-mind and wrong because you say so. Yeah, that's not trolling. People are gonna take that seriously. God forbid you try addressing yourself and ask why you like the game. I must have been in a dream when I heard everyone ever talk about Rise of Lyric having nice animations and good controls despite being wholly boring, even though I don't think it's boring. Remember when I said I didn't think it was that bad and everyone knifed me in the back? Me neither!

I keep typing and retyping various statements about how ridiculous you're being, but it speaks for itself, honestly. It would be one thing if this were a simple back and forth of "no, 06 is good!" but you had to throw condescension into the mix. That takes all the fun out of arguing, y'know?

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Calling others sheeple in any context, or wrong without explanation, is considered trolling, yes.

It's also highly misguided. All you did was cause two people to reiterate the same arguments about Sonic 06 that have been made in the 9 years it's existed, which would have been accomplished by being upfront but with the plus side of lack of drama and staff threats. Complaining about there being significant opposition to your opinion about the game is the kind of whiny defeatism prevalent around here that doesn't serve to actually contribute to a thread.

If you have an argument about the game, make it clearly and sincerely. If you don't have one or don't want to make one, don't shitpost to get attention. Again, that's how you get suspended and banned.

This conversation is now closed. No more posts about this, from either side. Get back to talking about the game.

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