Official Sonic 2006 topic

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

52 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

So when people ask for a remake what they really mean is not a remake at all, just '06 fanservice. In spite of the fact that this started with people talking about bug fixes and story tweaks. Thanks for clearing that up.

If you want to put it that way, sure. Why not.

52 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

As if enough time and money hasn't been wasted in this series already, you'd want me to wait even longer for a game that's actually worth a damn while Sonic Team pushes out a selfish disaster. Yeah, no, not interested.

I don't recall wanting you to do anything, Dio, because I don't really care what you're particularly interested in out it or this strawman you just up and threw out.

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How can you not understand that? How can you not understand something that is so fundamental to the way the human mind works? If you put your hand in a fire and get burned, do you not make the connection that fire burns you and learn not to stick your hand into it again?

How? Because all you're doing is spouting a series of fallacies you're supporting with the most one-sided and downright absurd strawmans anyone could ever make to make a point, all because some people are considering an idea of something you're not interested it. And that's a lot more ridiculous to me than someone entertaining the idea of a Sonic 06 remake with all its challenges.

If you make a mistake building something, how about you learn from you're mistakes if you go about doing again?

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Gameplay is obviously the most important thing, but if you attach the game to '06's reputation, you are going to push people away from it regardless, with absolutely no benefits. There is literally nothing to be gained by tying it to '06, just skip over that shit entirely and make a good, new game that doesn't have to fight '06's reputation.

I'm gonna ask you this again: prove it.

Because, "it reminds me of Sonic 06 and I don't like the idea" isn't valid proof. You'd think that if good gameplay is suppose to fix reputations, it wouldn't matter whether it's a different game or a new game with the same characters, setting, and general plot as a previous game. You're not gonna convince me anything with a double standard like that.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

How? Because all you're doing is spouting a series of fallacies you're supporting with the most one-sided and downright absurd strawmans anyone could ever make to make a point,

Yelling about fallacies is not an argument, CSS.

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

If you make a mistake building something, how about you learn from you're mistakes if you go about doing again?

What we learned from '06 is "don't do what '06 did". Or at least that's the lesson I thought we had learned, but apparently the Hindenburg 2 sounds like a good plan to some people.

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I'm gonna ask you this again: prove it.

What kind of proof would you actually accept?

It shouldn't be hard to understand that people's initial reactions to a game are going to be colored by how you present it, and that if you present a game with the appearance of something they hate they're going to have less interest in it than if you show them a game with the appearance of something they like, even if the actual gameplay was the same. Even if this hypothetical not-a-remake remake was a good game, it would be facing a huge uphill struggle compared to a game without the baggage of being a quasi-pseudo-remake of '06.

[Meta77]

Guys please don't agree. I'm simply saying I among many others liked 06. Just cause a few elitist like to act as if it was the worst game ever it's not honestly. Sure it's a buggy mess but I enjoyed it. I was simply saying I'd think a remake would be cool for sega to do if they got the time

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

27 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yelling about fallacies is not an argument, CSS.

That wasn't making an argument, that was telling you to use some actual logic and reason to make a point instead of jumping to extremes like you're still doing now.

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What we learned from '06 is "don't do what '06 did". Or at least that's the lesson I thought we had learned, but apparently the Hindenburg 2 sounds like a good plan to some people.

Well we learned to use helium instead of hydrogen given we still have blimps flying over football stadiums. So yeah, I think people have learned the lesson of "don't do the bad shit 06 did" well, even if we have to deal with things like the Boost formula to be stable.

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What kind of proof would you actually accept?

Some actual proof and not some assumptions based on someone's pessimism or their personal disinterest he's using to speak for a vague group of people.

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It shouldn't be hard to understand that people's initial reactions to a game are going to be colored by how you present it, and that if you present a game with the appearance of something they hate they're going to have less interest in it than if you show them a game with the appearance of something they like, even if the actual gameplay was the same. Even if this hypothetical not-a-remake remake was a good game, it would be facing a huge uphill struggle compared to a game without the baggage of being a quasi-pseudo-remake of '06.

You mean the reactions people will have regardless of whether or not it's a "quasi-pseudo-remake" of 06 up until they play the game in a series that's already having an uphill battle even when the public has enjoyed pregious games like Generations? Yeah, we've heard this every time a new game is announced because they're presented with something they hate like Sonic in 3D or even a Sonic game period, so again I find that to be a non-issue at this point.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Well we learned to use helium instead of hydrogen given we still have blimps flying over football stadiums. So yeah, I think people have learned the lesson of "don't do the bad shit 06 did" well.

Yeah those new blimps that don't explode, those are games that aren't trying to be '06.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Some actual proof and not some assumptions based on someone's pessimism and disinterest.

Okay again: what kind of proof would you actually accept? Please try to be specific about what would actually change your mind, instead of expecting me to guess what magic words you're waiting to hear, if there even is anything I could say to convince you.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

You mean the reactions people will have regardless of whether or not it's a "quasi-pseudo-remake" of 06 up until they play the game in a series that's already having an uphill battle even when the public has enjoyed pregious games like Generations? Yeah, we've heard this every time a new game is announced, so again I find that to be a non-issue at this point.

No I mean the massively increased reaction from linking a game specifically to the most awful Sonic game as opposed to the more moderate negative reaction people have to Sonic in general. A new game says "we know you didn't like that thing so we're trying something else that will maybe be good", an '06 remake says "we're doing the dumb thing you hate again".

[Pixel]

Sonic 06 has a terrible story, awful level design, terrible art design, poor multiplayer, bad bosses and many, many more. It's broken on such a fundamental level that there's absolutely no reason to look for ways to remake it. It isn't simply bad execution, the whole game is a terrible idea.

Even if Sonic Team were to remake a Sonic game, Sonic 06 is by far one of the worst candidates in Sonic's backlog. There are other Sonic games that have far better potential and a stronger conceptual framework to work with.

[Baconjack]

15 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Oh my god, this again?

We've been over this. '06 is a train wreck. And not just of the ordinary kind - the kind that exploded spectacularly into flames and kept smouldering so long that it's burnt a crater into the ground. There is virtually nothing worth salvaging from it mechanically speaking, because the very core of '06 is dysfunctional and rotten. Its narrative is an incoherent mess that tries to come off as profound but reads more like a self-insert shipping fic. And you certainly don't gain any goodwill by picking it back up and trying to put the pieces together in some way that makes sense, because besides the fact that is fucking impossible, people of all walks of life will question why the fuck Sega is refocusing on the single worst part of the franchise verbatim when there are better, more obvious and infinitely more practical approaches they could be taking instead.

Just... why are people so obsessed with revisiting this game in spite of its infamy? It's not worth it. Not even close.

A few certain people on this board talk about a revived '06, not for the game it was, but for the game it could have been (the trailer above). That trailer and the E3 2006 demo has little in common with the final game since:

• You can't turn into Super Sonic at will in the final game, only the final boss
• You can't go as fast as Sonic as what you can in the E3 2006 demo.
• Shadow can obviously not use vehicles unlike what was shown in the E3 2006 trailer
• The load times are nowhere near as long as the final game.
• There was no such thing as a day/night cycle in the final game, only the E3 2005 demo.
• There are nowhere as many glitches in the demos than in the final game

There are a few others, and the ones listed above are features so unique that they were never seen in a Sonic game, or they had never been seen since the classic games. I watched the E3 2006 demo and trailer, and having watched that and played the final game, the E3 demo looks far better than the final game as there are quite a few things I can find in the demo that were non-existent in the final game.

I, for one, do not want a remade Sonic '06, since it has been nearly 10 years since the game came out and it has an extremely poor reputation amongst literally any gamer with 45 minute long Youtube videos analysing the game's many glitches, hundreds of Youtube Poops and even the official Sonic Twitter account making fun of how bad the final game actually is, and Sonic Team have already superior, better methods for Sonic gameplay. However, I do think of poor games, not for what they were, but for what they could have been, and in my eyes, Sonic '06 could have been better if the numerous internal problems at Sonic Team did not occur (Yuji Naka leaving, Sega putting a Christmas 2006 deadline on the final game and the team getting split in half so one half can go and make Secret Rings).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah those new blimps that don't explode, those are games that aren't trying to be '06.

Ya know, being patronizing doesn't make you more understandable.

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Okay again: what kind of proof would you actually accept? Please try to be specific about what would actually change your mind, instead of expecting me to guess what magic words you're waiting to hear, if there even is anything I could say to convince you.

Actual proof?

Evidence, statistics, analysis and such that proves the argument "if Sonic 06 was remade from scratch, and was a good game that doesn't have all the things that made it bad the first time, would that be okay" wrong, and not a "it reminds me of Sonic 06, therefore it's a bad game" impression you've insisted on pushing from the start.

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No I mean the massively increased reaction from linking a game specifically to the most awful Sonic game as opposed to the more moderate negative reaction people have to Sonic in general. A new game says "we know you didn't like that thing so we're trying something else that will maybe be good", an '06 remake says "we're doing the dumb thing you hate again".

You either don't get it or are deliberately ignoring the case here: it doesn't matter which way they go about this, because whether they do a sort of remake of 06 or something else apart from it, either game will get a massively increased reaction from the simple fact that it's yet another Sonic game as "the dumb thing they hate" which they don't have high hopes for to begin with. It's a no-win with some people that one shouldn't have to worry about as much as you think given the mixed reactions to games post-06 that fared somewhat better, so you're better off not entertaining them.

[Pixel]

It's so eye bleedingly obvious that a Sonic 2006 remake would be a terrible idea commercially that I hardly think it needs to be explained.

[Meta77]

10 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic 06 has a terrible story, awful level design, terrible art design, poor multiplayer, bad bosses and many, many more. It's broken on such a fundamental level that there's absolutely no reason to look for ways to remake it. It isn't simply bad execution, the whole game is a terrible idea.

Even if Sonic Team were to remake a Sonic game, Sonic 06 is by far one of the worst candidates in Sonic's backlog. There are other Sonic games that have far better potential and a stronger conceptual framework to work with.

See that is just your own entitled opinion. I think the art and bosses designs were some of the best. The game was meant to take place in a more realistic take on many things as a reboot. But as stated the e3 demo was what many wanted but they changed so much

[Baconjack]

2 minutes ago, Pixel said:

It's so eye bleedingly obvious that a Sonic 2006 remake would be a terrible idea commercially that I hardly think it needs to be explained.

Exactly, because the game has such a bad reputation among any gamer that if Sonic '06 was mentioned on the game box, then the game would not sell, despite whatever the critics give it.

[Pixel]

Sure, if you like Sonic 06 then that's cool. There's a bunch of fan efforts to work on Sonic 06, including making it closer to the more promising E3 demo. But even with the E3 demo, I still don't think that's anywhere near the best direction they could take the franchise in.

I just don't think there's any reason to waste SEGA's money on it. Especially when Sonic's already in such a state.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That is not how advertising and marketing works guys...

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Ya know, being patronizing doesn't make you more understandable.

Okay, here it is, in the most simple form possible: to make this series better, they should learn from '06 and then move on from it to make new games, rather than getting stuck trying to fix '06 and reminding people of their greatest mistake. Anything good that could be done in an '06 reboot could be done in a new game without '06's reputation attached.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Actual proof?

Evidence, statistics, analysis and such that proves the argument "if Sonic 06 was remade from scratch, and was a good game that doesn't have all the things that made it bad the first time, would that be okay" wrong, and not a "it reminds me of Sonic 06, therefore it's a bad game" impression you've insisted on pushing from the start.

It doesn't matter which way they go about this, either game will get a massively increased reaction from the simple fact that it's yet another Sonic game thay they don't have high hopes for and would think it best to bury the franchise. It's a no-win with some people that one shouldn't have to worry about as much as you think given the mixed reactions to games post-06 that fared somewhat better.

I'll need you to provide a 30 page paper proving that people have the same reaction to Sonic in general as they do to Sonic '06, or I'll copy-paste Wikipedia's list of fallacies at you. Remember to cite your sources.

Or we could just look at the generally-positive reaction to Mania to show that Sonic games don't get completely shit on if they actually look like something people enjoy.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

24 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay, here it is, in the most simple form possible: to make this series better, they should learn from '06 and then move on from it to make new games, rather than getting stuck trying to fix '06 and reminding people of their greatest mistake. Anything good that could be done in an '06 reboot could be done in a new game without '06's reputation attached.

And I'd argue they'd still get a new game regardless of whether or not they re-explore Sonic 06's settings and characters. If the game is good, people will notice regardless after they play it.

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I'll need you to provide a 30 page paper proving that people have the same reaction to Sonic in general as they do to Sonic '06, or I'll copy-paste Wikipedia's list of fallacies at you. Remember to cite your sources.

Or we could just look at the generally-positive reaction to Mania to show that Sonic games don't get completely shit on if they actually look like something people enjoy.

Yeah, I'm not gonna provide you anything when you're response is to flip the tables and dodge the point to continue this patronizing just because you don't like me being open-minded to the idea that a Sonic 06 remake from the ground up isn't an instafail by association. 

Especially when you've been around long enough to see people's cautions and pessimistic pre-game reactions to titles like Unleashed, Colors, and even Generations prior to playing the games and finding them decent.

[Lucid Dream]

I was wondering

How would people identify a Sonic 2006 remake? Sonic 2006 is the fan name, its actual name is simply Sonic the Hedgehog. 

Also, wouldn't a Sonic 2006 remake, which fixes all the fundamental issues and glitches, has a new story and a better system, simply just be linked to the Sonic Adventure titles? A lot of people want SA3, and if something like a new Sonic Adventure game was made (even if it is internally a Sonic 2006 remake) it would just be linked to the Sonic Adventure titles. And considering how much would have to be changed to make Sonic 06 good, it would essentially be a new game. 

If the game turns out to be absolutely amazing (which it will have to be, otherwise there would be little point in remaking Sonic 2006), than wouldn't everyone just call it SA3? Nobody would call it a Sonic 06 remake at that point. 

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

And I'd argue they'd still get a new game regardless of whether or not they re-explore Sonic 06's settings and characters. If the game is good, people will notice regardless after they play it.

If the game presents itself as a repeat of '06, a lot of people won't bother taking the time to play it. There's no gain in tying the game to '06 as opposed to making a new game that people don't have a preexisting visceral reaction to.

5 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Yeah, I'm not gonna provide you anything when you're response is to flip the tables and dodge the point to continue this patronizing just because you don't like me being open-minded to the idea that a Sonic 06 remake from the ground up isn't an instafail by association. 

Especially when you've been around long enough to see people's pessimistic pre-game reactions to titles like Unleashed, Colors, and even Generations prior to playing the games and finding them decent.

Do you really think anyone here has hard statistics about people's initial responses to various Sonic games? It's an unrealistic standard that neither of us can fulfill, and requiring it just deadlocks the argument entirely.

Yeah, people are pessimistic towards the series, that's obvious and understandable considering its output. But it shouldn't take a scientific study to understand that people have a stronger negative reaction to the worst games in the series than they do to games unrelated to them. By remaking '06 rather than making a new game you are bringing those negative feelings into play before your player even gets their hands on the game. And nothing about '06's characters or setting or story is interesting enough to justify that extra obstacle, especially for a series that is already struggling. No matter how good the game might end up being, they are better off not having that extra level of skepticism aimed at it.

[BlueSky]

Sorry to butt in, but that E3 technical demo video some posts above was just so epic it sent chills down my spine, in a good way mind you. Like the soundtrack (pretty good stuff to listen to while dwelling on all those equations...) it felt pretty cool. It's still one of those games i'd storywise love to play but gameplaywise it would just collect dust in my closet since I'm not that good of a player while talking about platformers and such... considering all bugs it's for the best I don't even have right console(s) for playing it, since I'd pretty certainly buy it anyway since it seems too interesting for me considering all the other elements than progressing in the game.

For me '06 seems as a game that has both good and bad variables inside on it. Usually when something breaks people start to wonder how to repair it, at least it was that way at some point, nowadays everything that breaks just gets thrown into litter bin. Maybe that actually explains a lot of things considering the differs in opinion, the mentality behind words and all...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If the game presents itself as a repeat of '06, a lot of people won't bother taking the time to play it. There's no gain in tying the game to '06 as opposed to making a new game that people don't have a preexisting visceral reaction to.

And that won't stop those that would bother. Two can play this game making vague assumptions, dude.

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Do you really think anyone here has hard statistics about people's initial responses to various Sonic games? It's an unrealistic standard that neither of us can fulfill, and requiring it just deadlocks the argument entirely.

No, I don't. Which was why asked you to prove it, because you were parading this whole thing  like it was a irrefutable fact this would be an failure regardless of whether it was actually a good game when for all anyone knows it might very well not when it could go either way. I never said it wouldn't given that happens with a lot of Sonig games anyway.

The burden of proof here was entirely on you, Dio, not me - If you're going to say a Sonic 06 remake from the ground up would fail regardless of if it's actually any good as if nothing can say otherwise, then that requires proof. 

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Yeah, people are pessimistic towards the series, that's obvious and understandable considering its output. But it shouldn't take a scientific study to understand that people have a stronger negative reaction to the worst games in the series than they do to games unrelated to them. By remaking '06 rather than making a new game you are bringing those negative feelings into play before your player even gets their hands on the game. And nothing about '06's characters or setting or story is interesting enough to justify that extra obstacle, especially for a series that is already struggling. No matter how good the game might end up being, they are better off not having that extra level of skepticism aimed at it.

Once again, Dio: prove it. Prove to me this is a bad thing no matter what.

Because all you're telling me is that this would be the same reaction people would have for any 3D Sonic game. So as far as I'm concerned, this is nothing unique whether it's a remake or something else since these responses are ones that everyone knows will occur with a mile away anytime a new 3D game is announced. But the game is actually good, whether it's a Sonic 06 remake or not, it also shouldn't take a scientific study to realize people will recognize that much and see it as such regardless of what it's associated with.

 

        

36 minutes ago, Lucid Dream said:

I was wondering

How would people identify a Sonic 2006 remake? Sonic 2006 is the fan name, its actual name is simply Sonic the Hedgehog. 

I'd say things like Silver, Solaris, Mephilies, Soleanna, Elise would make people see it as a spiritual remake. Just those things by themselves don't make all of Sonic 06, and you can plaster a new title and make entire changes to the story to where it has the same characters but functions differently.

[Diogenes]

Fine, man, you win. I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people would react negatively to an '06 remake. You've successively stonewalled the discussion by refusing to entertain anything except unreasonably exhaustive proof. Congrats.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Fine, man, you win. I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people would react negatively to an '06 remake. You've successively stonewalled the discussion by refusing to entertain anything except unreasonably exhaustive proof. Congrats.

Uh...correction: I was entertaining that a Sonic 06 remake from the ground up isn't an instafail. I couldn't care less that people would react negatively to it given they'll do it regardless - that's the one thing you kept disregarding.

But carry on.

[Meta77]

 

I will always remember the hype i had for this. It was to amazing. Again this could have been a great start of a reboot. Sadly it was rushed. Honestly some fans like myself enjoyed the game but knew it was a mess at the end of the day but still liked the game. I honestly wish sega could go back and remake it into what they really wanted with no time rush.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yeah, I remember those days when people were hyped and they saw their favorite characters arrive, had some WTF reactions seeing Silver for the first time, and looking forward to the scenery despite the hyper-realism. Good times. Lol

I gotta say, I did like what they tried to do with Shadow and his Chaos Powers being put to use to make him stand apart from Sonic like that of Tails and Knuckles. That kinda thing could use an overhaul to make more viable if they wanted to being Shadow back as a playable character, but that probably would cause trouble in a boost centric game if we're continuing the Unleashed tradition.

[Wraith]

The assertion that people would react negatively regardless so they should go ahead is a weird one. Colors, Generations and Lost World were all notably given  a fair shake on lead up and reception wise for the most part. Sonic 2017 has been met with apprehension specifically because of the imagery in the trailer bringing Sonic 06 and Shadow to mind. Sonic 06 was also featured on "worst games of the decade" lists long after the fact and is played for ironic enjoyment on YouTube like a lot of "worst ever" games are. To bring this game back WOULD be ultimately more harmful to the game's reception than not. They could try anyway,  sure, but it'd be far more difficult than marketing a new game with with no baggage. Especially since the minority of fans who want an 06 remake would probably buy the next sonic game no matter what it was. 

[FriendBot]

Besides, isn't there a fan project that's remaking 06 through Unity or something like that?

I mean, there's just design choices that just turn me off from the game so I don't really care much about anything 06-related but it will take a lot to convince me that an 06 remake can be good.

You're probably just better off making a new game entirely or heck, remake a game that people actually like?!

Adventure 1 is far more deserving of a remake than 06 ever will and besides 06 reused ideas the Adventures and Heroes had anyway so yeah.