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Official Sonic 2006 topic

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Well, I recall Super Smash Bros. Brawl and (especially) for 3DS being both very massive to run for my poor consoles. I don't have many 3DS games that ask me to "wait" a bit before I can move around in the home menu after it supposedly closed the game... And it's pretty heavy with its loadings sometimes.

Look, I don't mind loading screens, I've played OPUC 1,2 SP1 and SP2 and they made me wait, sometimes around few minutes (I know, that isn't as long as '06). Some freaking Windows systems take more than 10 minutes to open. Even half an hour. I can get people don't like waiting but still, every SINGLE time they need to make that "joke", just... aaargh... I don't appreciate the "jokes" anymore.

Quote

Because that stuff don't appeal to me!

You said it right, out-of-context-ripped-off Dead or Alive quote.

... "What I Want" if anybody wondered...

They play the franchise down in my eyes by taking it too far, those official guys, I suppose it's pretty much Webber but I'm not sure, so, well... Like I could do anything about it, though.

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10 hours ago, Meta77 said:

It's because it was one of the main complaints when honestly plenty of games have long loading screens

The length of them is pretty bad, but that's not even the main problem - it's the sheer, baffling frequency at which they show up. And I mean baffling in the purest sense imaginable, because they have a tendency to keep showing up in places where they have absolutely no right to. Consider first that almost every level is divided into segments, and there's a lengthy loading time between each of them. A level like Sonic's Crisis City has no less than four of them. There was no reason for them to do this, considering the engine is quite clearly capable of loading an entire level without loading times with no visible trouble (both variations of Dusty Desert, for example), and especially when Sonic is a series that champions speed and flow above all else. People would absolutely lose their shit if Jungle Joyride made them wait for a loading screen every 1:30 that passes.

The bigger elephant in the room, though, is that 06 insists on re-initializing the entire game world for the most trivial of reasons. Beat a boss and need to show a quick cutscene of them falling over in the same area? Loading screen! Ingame cutscene needs to play in the same area you're already loaded in? Loading screen! Need to play a side mission that plays out in the same area you're already loaded in? Loading screen! Need to display a single line of dialogue confirming the goal of that side mission? Loading screen! Need to display a single line of dialogue confirming you've won that side mission? Loading screen! Lost? Also a loading screen! Need to spawn in a bunch of goddamn boxes for a puzzle mission because you couldn't be bothering a simple dialogue tree? Still a loading screen. For boxes. Literally the simplest polygon you can render.

If a game needs to load a lot and for a long time because there's an unprecedent amount of shit to build each time, I can begrudingly put up with it. If a game needs to load a lot because the programmers are complete and utter hacks who can't create even the slimplest variety of loading gates, I am indignantly going to call them out on their shit, and I doubt I'm alone in that respect.

10 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Sonic 06 still was not as bad as some made it out.. bad yes but not that bad hell duke nukem forever now that's bad

For that matter, this practice of pointing to other things and saying "well other things are bad too guys!!!" can frankly fuck right off. It doesn't soften the blow quite like you think it does - if anything it comes off as dire because you're trying to project this game's flaws onto others to save it some face.

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2 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

The length of them is pretty bad, but that's not even the main problem - it's the sheer, baffling frequency at which they show up. And I mean baffling in the purest sense imaginable, because they have a tendency to keep showing up in places where they have absolutely no right to. Consider first that almost every level is divided into segments, and there's a lengthy loading time between each of them. A level like Sonic's Crisis City has no less than four of them. There was no reason for them to do this, considering the engine is quite clearly capable of loading an entire level without loading times with no visible trouble (both variations of Dusty Desert, for example), and especially when Sonic is a series that champions speed and flow above all else. People would absolutely lose their shit if Jungle Joyride made them wait for a loading screen every 1:30 that passes.

The bigger elephant in the room, though, is that 06 insists on re-initializing the entire game world for the most trivial of reasons. Beat a boss and need to show a quick cutscene of them falling over in the same area? Loading screen! Ingame cutscene needs to play in the same area you're already loaded in? Loading screen! Need to play a side mission that plays out in the same area you're already loaded in? Loading screen! Need to display a single line of dialogue confirming the goal of that side mission? Loading screen! Need to display a single line of dialogue confirming you've won that side mission? Loading screen! Lost? Also a loading screen! Need to spawn in a bunch of goddamn boxes for a puzzle mission because you couldn't be bothering a simple dialogue tree? Still a loading screen. For boxes. Literally the simplest polygon you can render.

If a game needs to load a lot and for a long time because there's an unprecedent amount of shit to build each time, I can begrudingly put up with it. If a game needs to load a lot because the programmers are complete and utter hacks who can't create even the slimplest variety of loading gates, I am indignantly going to call them out on their shit, and I doubt I'm alone in that respect.

For that matter, this practice of pointing to other things and saying "well other things are bad too guys!!!" can frankly fuck right off. It doesn't soften the blow quite like you think it does - if anything it comes off as dire because you're trying to project this game's flaws onto others to save it some face.

No it's to say die edge hard fans act as if sonof 06 is the worst thing since backed onions. But it simply isn't pointing out a worse thing is to in the fact itself show there are worse things out there and the meme 06 destroyed the fan base is beating a dead horse with a metal bar

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Just now, Meta77 said:

No it's to say die edge hard fans act as if sonof 06 is the worst thing since backed onions. But it simply isn't pointing out a worse thing is to in the fact itself show there are worse things out there and the meme 06 destroyed the fan base is beating a dead horse with a metal bar

Okay, serious question here: do you believe people would still be beating that horse if people stopped sticking up for it? Because even if you argue that it isn't the worst game in the franchise (frankly if there is a worse Sonic game, they're probably too obscure to care about), it's still a godawful monstrosity either way, and the only lesson to be learnt from it is a practical demonstration of how not to make a Sonic game.

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15 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Okay, serious question here: do you believe people would still be beating that horse if people stopped sticking up for it? Because even if you argue that it isn't the worst game in the franchise (frankly if there is a worse Sonic game, they're probably too obscure to care about), it's still a godawful monstrosity either way, and the only lesson to be learnt from it is a practical demonstration of how not to make a Sonic game.

Its not. It's playable from start to finish.  the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.  had it been finished it could have been one of the best but it wasn't. We got this. But it's not that bad. If anything it's fans who need something to gripe on because there is no one game in the franchise seem as the best or worst cause a handful will like each segment

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12 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Its not. It's playable from start to finish.  the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.  had it been finished it could have been one of the best but it wasn't. We got this. But it's not that bad. If anything it's fans who need something to gripe on because there is no one game in the franchise seem as the best or worst cause a handful will like each segment

Eeh, I have to halfway disagree with you in this regard.

 

Speaking as someone who played through the entirety of Sonic 06 (didn't get all the silver medals tho), I can somewhat agree with you that the game could have been better if it hadn't been rushed, and that the game is not utterly unenjoyable if you can get past it's odd quirks and excess of loading screens. I will also say that for all of the problems present, there are a number of idea that are really interesting and could have been built upon for future installments, such as the idea of non-linear (and fully 3D) stages like White Acropolis Act 2 and to an extent parts of Kingdom Valley, the gem mechanic for Sonic, multiple playable characters that could be used during the same level and stage, etc.

BUT.

I also have to agree with many others before me that just because I can enjoy the game and that it has good ideas here and there doesn't suddenly mean the game wasn't a poorly designed mess and that many of those ideas, including the ones I didn't mention weren't also abysmally executed. The simple reality of the matter is that while the game may have been better if it hadn't been rushed for Christmas, it WOULDN'T have fixed the numerous problems that were inherent in the gameplay, story structure and plot in general, lackluster characterization, and so on. These things could not have been fixed just by having more time to fix them; they would have to be completely overhauled from the ground up to even become decent, and by then 06 would have become an entirely different entity.

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1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

Its not. It's playable from start to finish.

Congratulations, you've proven Sonic 06 has cleared literally the lowest bar needed to demonstrate it is in fact a functioning videogame.

...what does this have to do with it being good or bad?

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.  had it been finished it could have been one of the best but it wasn't.

I hear this excuse a lot, especially when this game is concerned, and every time they neglect to consider the following: a lot of what happened in 06, happened because they were following design documents that had been made prior, and not simply because they didn't put the time and effort into it. What you could argue that's missing from that plan - certain cutscenes and story arcs if there are any, ommission and malfunction of certain mechanics like Sonic's gems, etc - is fair enough. But not only are most of those at worst minor gripes, most of the reasons 06 is considered a bad game anyway is because of aspects that were already in the plans from pretty much the word go. For example, that stupid and unbearably sappy romance subplot that Sonic got in lieu of any actual relevance to the game's events bar the last hour or so, or level design so basic that in some cases it's literally a flat plain with boxes strewn over it, or the janky, ill-thought moveset concepts of most of the cast in general.

Now you're probably going to say "well they can change those things!", and... well, no. They really can't, not without a great degree of difficulty. The reason these documents exist in game development is because videogames tend to be worked on by a metric fuckton of people at a time. And a metric fuckton of people is very hard to keep focused, you can't just individually brief each and every one of them on what they need to do all the time. So design documents and other such things exist to give a large number of workers a quick reference on what needs to be done - and if you start tinkering with the core documents after work already starts, it creates a butterfly effect that can culminate in an absolute clusterfuck of development hell. You yourself already mentioned Duke Forever, so you should already be familiar with what happens when you obsess with constantly changing shit around in the interests of trying to save a train wreck.

The short version is that the worst aspects of 06's design were set in stone the moment Sonic Team received the green light, and the most you would've gotten from giving it another 6-12 months to finish would still be at best mediocre results - nothing short of quitting while they were ahead and cancelling the whole thing would have saved them. You can only hope they continue in spirit some day with similar concepts that gel together better, and well in that case, I hope Sonic Forces works out well for you. =V

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45 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Congratulations, you've proven Sonic 06 has cleared literally the lowest bar needed to demonstrate it is in fact a functioning videogame.

...what does this have to do with it being good or bad?

I hear this excuse a lot, especially when this game is concerned, and every time they neglect to consider the following: a lot of what happened in 06, happened because they were following design documents that had been made prior, and not simply because they didn't put the time and effort into it. What you could argue that's missing from that plan - certain cutscenes and story arcs if there are any, ommission and malfunction of certain mechanics like Sonic's gems, etc - is fair enough. But not only are most of those at worst minor gripes, most of the reasons 06 is considered a bad game anyway is because of aspects that were already in the plans from pretty much the word go. For example, that stupid and unbearably sappy romance subplot that Sonic got in lieu of any actual relevance to the game's events bar the last hour or so, or level design so basic that in some cases it's literally a flat plain with boxes strewn over it, or the janky, ill-thought moveset concepts of most of the cast in general.

Now you're probably going to say "well they can change those things!", and... well, no. They really can't, not without a great degree of difficulty. The reason these documents exist in game development is because videogames tend to be worked on by a metric fuckton of people at a time. And a metric fuckton of people is very hard to keep focused, you can't just individually brief each and every one of them on what they need to do all the time. So design documents and other such things exist to give a large number of workers a quick reference on what needs to be done - and if you start tinkering with the core documents after work already starts, it creates a butterfly effect that can culminate in an absolute clusterfuck of development hell. You yourself already mentioned Duke Forever, so you should already be familiar with what happens when you obsess with constantly changing shit around in the interests of trying to save a train wreck.

The short version is that the worst aspects of 06's design were set in stone the moment Sonic Team received the green light, and the most you would've gotten from giving it another 6-12 months to finish would still be at best mediocre results - nothing short of quitting while they were ahead and cancelling the whole thing would have saved them. You can only hope they continue in spirit some day with similar concepts that gel together better, and well in that case, I hope Sonic Forces works out well for you. =V

The main thing that was wrong with 06 in my opinion is how Sonic just snaps to whatever he's standing on, no momentum and how he drops like a brick awkwardly if you let go of the stick while wall running. Also how broken loops and tubes are where the game basically freaks out. So basically they fucked up hard in the original engine prototype stage and never cared to fix it, or they just didn't have time because it took them so long to get anything running on the hardware. Wouldn't be surprised if programmers at Sonic Team are paid pennies so they just don't really give that many shits.

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Looking and reading interviews show that a lot was cut and a lot was unfinished. The rainbow gem. Online mp. Dlc...actual good dlc was planned but in the end it was all dropped because when you lose your head and then lose half your team to go work on a wii game just to give them something your not going to care to fix a lot. And a lot could have if that motivation was still there.  sure 06 left a spiky stick up a lot of people's butts they just don't feel like pulling out but the end all did not end life on earth. And while the romance was not well written at all if was not that bad. Just a like of fanfic writers were upset sonic wasn't with Amy who's love story is just as badly written

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1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

And while the romance was not well written at all if was not that bad.

Nope, it was pretty fudging bad. Ignoring the automatic disadvantage of "I love this Hedgehog I've barely known", the game also goes on bizarre Twilight-tier tangents that highly suggest that Elise doesn't even care for her own father that she knew for years since she supposedly never cried for his death, but when a blue hedgehog comes about, that SOMEHOW brings on the water works with his death.

Look, Animal/human romance in fictional media can be done and actually work to an extent (self-awareness of tone be key most times) so taking bestiality out of the equation we're still left with one of the lowest of romance titles that has no spark, no sense, no nothing positive to it, and it's an incredibly huge issue because the entire game's plot hinges on that very base!

Amy for comparison actually has gotten to know Sonic over the years since Sonic CD. True while her crush on him can range from cute to creepy, it at least feels more genuine and actually warranted. Oh and also, unlike Elise, Amy's actually resourceful and capable in her own rights! Hell, I'm more of a Sonaze person and even I'd see more reason for Amy to actually be the one that wakes up Sonic over Elise.

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1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Nope, it was pretty fudging bad. Ignoring the automatic disadvantage of "I love this Hedgehog I've barely known", the game also goes on bizarre Twilight-tier tangents that highly suggest that Elise doesn't even care for her own father that she knew for years since she supposedly never cried for his death, but when a blue hedgehog comes about, that SOMEHOW brings on the water works with his death.

Look, Animal/human romance in fictional media can be done and actually work to an extent (self-awareness of tone be key most times) so taking bestiality out of the equation we're still left with one of the lowest of romance titles that has no spark, no sense, no nothing positive to it, and it's an incredibly huge issue because the entire game's plot hinges on that very base!

Amy for comparison actually has gotten to know Sonic over the years since Sonic CD. True while her crush on him can range from cute to creepy, it at least feels more genuine and actually warranted. Oh and also, unlike Elise, Amy's actually resourceful and capable in her own rights! Hell, I'm more of a Sonaze person and even I'd see more reason for Amy to actually be the one that wakes up Sonic over Elise.

Amy's crush early on was mainly creepy. He'll first thing she does is huggle you like a first time con goer. And as I stated before had Sega written out anything in the game it would have been better. Not sure about you but having a time god in my body that could escape through my tears and being told you can't cry or the world's going to burnwith little children crying that leads me to a life of boredom and royal rules everyday for the next 14 years as I'm guessing she was around 5 at the time. And for the epic blue hedgehog to come out of nowhere to save me from a attack on my city with next to no guards would excite someone. And over time of being chased also exciting.  But to have it taken away in front of you would be hard. At least her dad died off screen away from her

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18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

. And as I stated before had Sega written out anything in the game it would have been better.

More like if they'd gone with a different draft after throwing te one we got in the fire, but I digress. Regardless, there's no point in trying to ward off criticism of what the story IS with how things could've supposedly gone better.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Not sure about you but having a time god in my body that could escape through my tears

Elise never knew about that.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

being told you can't cry or the world's going to burnwith little children crying that leads me to a life of boredom and royal rules everyday for the next 14 years

Bull. She was never told not to cry because of that. In fact as you yourself stated, her father, when he actually explained the matter of Iblis being trapped within Elise, to Silver, NOT Elise, and gave the speech of "not crying" to said KOed Elise, died while she was unconscious and unaware. "Off screen" as far as she was concerned. In the flashback, which is before his death, he tells her not to cry so she can grow up to be a strong queen.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Not sure about you but having a time god in my body that could escape through my tears and being told you can't cry or the world's going to burnwith little children crying that leads me to a life of boredom and royal rules everyday for the next 14 years as I'm guessing she was around 5 at the time.

What exactly are you saying you'd do if you were in that situation? That you'd not cry a single tear for your own family, but you would cry buckets over someone you just met and not even interacted with that much in comparison?

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

And for the epic blue hedgehog to come out of nowhere to save me from a attack on my city with next to no guards would excite someone.

What does this have to do with crying?

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

And over time of being chased also exciting.  But to have it taken away in front of you would be hard.

So you're saying now that Elise cared more about the thrills than an actual legitimate romance? Cause that's not gonna earn the girl brownie points.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

At least her dad died off screen away from her

Traumatic incident, Solaris Flames nearly killing her, and all on the same day that she finds out her Dad's dead? Nope, not gonna buy it, given also how emotionally fragile the game's story makes her out to be.

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10 hours ago, Meta77 said:

the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.

No, rushed production was a factor yes, but not the main factor, It was because of Yuji Naka's terrible management of just allowing the development team to do whatever like splitting themselves in 2 to make an uneeded Wii version only to later change it into a different game.

Sonic 06 defenders, please read this and get your facts straight, I'm honestly baffled by how after all these years people still say that if it wasn't rushed it would be amazing:

https://andrearitsu.com/2015/08/01/just-how-did-sonic-2006-happen/

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7 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

More like if they'd gone with a different draft after throwing te one we got in the fire, but I digress. Regardless, there's no point in trying to ward off criticism of what the story IS with how things could've supposedly gone better.

Elise never knew about that.

Bull. She was never told not to cry because of that. In fact as you yourself stated, her father, when he actually explained the matter of Iblis being trapped within Elise, to Silver, NOT Elise, died while she was unconscious and unaware. "Off screen" as far as she was concerned. In the flashback, which is before his death, he tells her not to cry so she can grow up to be a strong queen.

What exactly are you saying you'd do if you were in that situation? That you'd not cry a single tear for your own family, but you would cry buckets over someone you just met and not even interacted with that much in comparison?

What does this have to do with crying?

So you're saying now that Elise cared more about the thrills than an actual legitimate romance? Cause that's not gonna earn the girl brownie points.

Traumatic incident, Solaris Flames nearly killing her, and all on the same day that she finds out her Dad's dead? Nope, not gonna buy it, given also how emotionally fragile the game's story makes her out to be.

Your going to sit there and act like she didn't have some hint to what was in her. No let's ignore the random fire god visions I keep having.  Yea that's just what everyone dreams of.  emotionally fragile the f. Besides the sigh my life is boring she spent most her time jumping off things and ignoring eggman. And the thrills and romance go together on that one.and off screen he could have made mention that she can't cry to protect her people. Hell i go back yo the visions although Sega goofed with. It's you.....it can't be. She never saw silver.  how the hell did she think sonic was him. Are all people in the game color blind.

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No, rushed production was a factor yes, but not the main factor, It was because of Yuji Naka's terrible management of just allowing the development team to do whatever like splitting themselves in 2 to make an uneeded Wii version only to later change it into a different game.

Ironic how that Wii game in question gave a much better story by far. I'd love to see someone try and claim that the writing staff were split to the point where it also hurt 06. Pffft.

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2 minutes ago, pppp said:

No, rushed production was a factor yes, but not the main factor, It was because of Yuji Naka's terrible management of just allowing the development team to do whatever like splitting themselves in 2 to make an uneeded Wii version only to later change it into a different game.

Sonic 06 defenders, please read this and get your facts straight, I'm honestly baffled by how after all these years people still say that if it wasn't rushed it would be amazing:

https://andrearitsu.com/2015/08/01/just-how-did-sonic-2006-happen/

Took me a hot second to see that's noting more than a fans quick put together. Sega themselves in interviews have stated we got what we got cause the danb thing was rushed. Yuki just up and leaving. Christmas deadline. No delays like mania gets and cutting the time in half to cater to the Wii for whatever reason. All factors lead to the mess dished out

8 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

 

Ironic how that Wii game in question gave a much better story by far. I'd love to see someone try and claim that the writing staff were split to the point where it also hurt 06. Pffft.

That's cause technically the story was written out for then to copy and tweak. Hard to screw up aladdin

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Just now, Meta77 said:

Sega themselves in interviews have stated we got what we got cause the danb thing was rushed.

Well of course that's what they said officially, you do realise companies can't just say "Oh yeah we tottally fucked the whole development process with our incompetence" right?

If SEGA tells you that Rise of Lyric also only sucked cause of rushed production and not because of shitty management and developer incompetence would you believe that too?

Crash Twinsanity was rushed and yet that game turned out fine because the developers actually knew what they were doing and managed to make something acceptable.

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16 minutes ago, pppp said:

Well of course that's what they said officially, you do realise companies can't just say "Oh yeah we tottally fucked the whole development process with our incompetence" right?

If SEGA tells you that Rise of Lyric also only sucked cause of rushed production and not because of shitty management and developer incompetence would you believe that too?

Crash Twinsanity was rushed and yet that game turned out fine because the developers actually knew what they were doing and managed to make something acceptable.

Big red button made that mess. And twin sanity was just that. Acceptable at best

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26 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Big red button made that mess.

So my question was:

43 minutes ago, pppp said:

If SEGA tells you that Rise of Lyric also only sucked cause of rushed production and not because of shitty management and developer incompetence would you believe that too?

I fail to see how that answers my question. BRB only made the game, they didn't finance and publish it, so SEGA carries most of the blame for forcing them to put the game on Wii U and not giving them the proper time and resources to do so.

Again, answer my question so I can try to understand where you're coming from.

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Just now, pppp said:

So my question was:

I fail to see how that answers my question. BRB only made the game, they didn't finance and publish it, so SEGA carries most of the blame for forcing them to put the game on Wii U and not giving them the proper time and resources to do so.

Again, answer my question so I can try to understand where you're coming from.

That Sega did not make it. If someone says they will make you a sandwich but you pay them and say have it done by 12. But when you get it at 11:50 and see it's missing the contents besides bread and ketchup. Not much you can do besides go with it

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1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

That Sega did not make it. If someone says they will make you a sandwich but you pay them and say have it done by 12. But when you get it at 11:50 and see it's missing the contents besides bread and ketchup. Not much you can do besides go with it

....Taking aside the fact that that analogy is terrible, it doesn't matter that BRB made it. SEGA was the one in charge so they take responsibilty(most of it at least). If you're gonna defend a crap game at least try to have a decent argument.

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3 minutes ago, pppp said:

....Taking aside the fact that that analogy is terrible, it doesn't matter that BRB made it. SEGA was the one in charge so they take responsibilty(most of it at least). If you're gonna defend a crap game at least try to have a decent argument.

And ice done just that. Just cause it's rubbed salt on you some odd way doesn't disprove I've done just that.  from saying it was a rushed. Untested. Game shipped for no other reason than to hit a Christmas deadline and I'll still say it's not that bad as some fans and I strongly use the word some act as if eaten himself forced them to play it

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1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

That's cause technically the story was written out for then to copy and tweak. Hard to screw up aladdin

Wrong again. SATSR's story wasn't an adaptation of Aladdin, let alone of just that one story. It was story that happened to have characters and settings from various Arabian Tales.

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

Your going to sit there and act like she didn't have some hint to what was in her. No let's ignore the random fire god visions I keep having.  Yea that's just what everyone dreams of.

I never said she didn't have hints. What I'm stating is that said "hints" were too obscure for her to piece together the specifics of the situation. Like, how is she supposed to know that crying releases Iblis? The story never tells or shows us. What does Elise even think about the dreams? The story never tells or properly shows us. Hell, the most we get is her recounting the old legend of Solaris who the town worships.

And I'm not even gonna start arguing about the many things that bizare dreams can mean, given how contrived 06 is already to make such even work with such little sufficient build-up.

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

Besides the sigh my life is boring she spent most her time jumping off things and ignoring eggman. And the thrills and romance go together on that one.

That sounds like more the makings of self-ish and suicidal Bell Swan-like caricature who doesn't give two toots about her kingdom. Not to mention, she jumped like once. Escaped once with Amy, And every other time, pretty much just waited for Sonic to rescue her.

 

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

and off screen he could have made mention that she can't cry to protect her people.

Considering how her death would also bring about the release of Iblis, I highly doubt they shared such a conversation where he would mentioned the crying clause and NOT the fact that Iblis is freed upon death too.

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

Hell i go back yo the visions although Sega goofed with. It's you.....it can't be. She never saw silver.  how the hell did she think sonic was him. Are all people in the game color blind.

Trying to defend 06's plotholes and stupidity with admittance to another problem in 06's campaigns isn't going to cut it.

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1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

And ice done just that. Just cause it's rubbed salt on you some odd way doesn't disprove I've done just that.  from saying it was a rushed. Untested. Game shipped for no other reason than to hit a Christmas deadline and I'll still say it's not that bad as some fans and I strongly use the word some act as if eaten himself forced them to play it

You know what? Considering you're a Sonic fanboy by your own admission(Not to mention that avatar makes me question other things about you), you're most certainly not gonna listen to reason, so goodbye, not gonna waste more time.

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