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Official Sonic 2006 topic


thedarkknight

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15 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Okay, serious question here: do you believe people would still be beating that horse if people stopped sticking up for it? Because even if you argue that it isn't the worst game in the franchise (frankly if there is a worse Sonic game, they're probably too obscure to care about), it's still a godawful monstrosity either way, and the only lesson to be learnt from it is a practical demonstration of how not to make a Sonic game.

Its not. It's playable from start to finish.  the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.  had it been finished it could have been one of the best but it wasn't. We got this. But it's not that bad. If anything it's fans who need something to gripe on because there is no one game in the franchise seem as the best or worst cause a handful will like each segment

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10 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

It's playable from start to finish.

If you think the barest of bare minimums is a worthy defense, you don't actually have a defense.

 

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12 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Its not. It's playable from start to finish.  the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.  had it been finished it could have been one of the best but it wasn't. We got this. But it's not that bad. If anything it's fans who need something to gripe on because there is no one game in the franchise seem as the best or worst cause a handful will like each segment

Eeh, I have to halfway disagree with you in this regard.

 

Speaking as someone who played through the entirety of Sonic 06 (didn't get all the silver medals tho), I can somewhat agree with you that the game could have been better if it hadn't been rushed, and that the game is not utterly unenjoyable if you can get past it's odd quirks and excess of loading screens. I will also say that for all of the problems present, there are a number of idea that are really interesting and could have been built upon for future installments, such as the idea of non-linear (and fully 3D) stages like White Acropolis Act 2 and to an extent parts of Kingdom Valley, the gem mechanic for Sonic, multiple playable characters that could be used during the same level and stage, etc.

BUT.

I also have to agree with many others before me that just because I can enjoy the game and that it has good ideas here and there doesn't suddenly mean the game wasn't a poorly designed mess and that many of those ideas, including the ones I didn't mention weren't also abysmally executed. The simple reality of the matter is that while the game may have been better if it hadn't been rushed for Christmas, it WOULDN'T have fixed the numerous problems that were inherent in the gameplay, story structure and plot in general, lackluster characterization, and so on. These things could not have been fixed just by having more time to fix them; they would have to be completely overhauled from the ground up to even become decent, and by then 06 would have become an entirely different entity.

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1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

Its not. It's playable from start to finish.

Congratulations, you've proven Sonic 06 has cleared literally the lowest bar needed to demonstrate it is in fact a functioning videogame.

...what does this have to do with it being good or bad?

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.  had it been finished it could have been one of the best but it wasn't.

I hear this excuse a lot, especially when this game is concerned, and every time they neglect to consider the following: a lot of what happened in 06, happened because they were following design documents that had been made prior, and not simply because they didn't put the time and effort into it. What you could argue that's missing from that plan - certain cutscenes and story arcs if there are any, ommission and malfunction of certain mechanics like Sonic's gems, etc - is fair enough. But not only are most of those at worst minor gripes, most of the reasons 06 is considered a bad game anyway is because of aspects that were already in the plans from pretty much the word go. For example, that stupid and unbearably sappy romance subplot that Sonic got in lieu of any actual relevance to the game's events bar the last hour or so, or level design so basic that in some cases it's literally a flat plain with boxes strewn over it, or the janky, ill-thought moveset concepts of most of the cast in general.

Now you're probably going to say "well they can change those things!", and... well, no. They really can't, not without a great degree of difficulty. The reason these documents exist in game development is because videogames tend to be worked on by a metric fuckton of people at a time. And a metric fuckton of people is very hard to keep focused, you can't just individually brief each and every one of them on what they need to do all the time. So design documents and other such things exist to give a large number of workers a quick reference on what needs to be done - and if you start tinkering with the core documents after work already starts, it creates a butterfly effect that can culminate in an absolute clusterfuck of development hell. You yourself already mentioned Duke Forever, so you should already be familiar with what happens when you obsess with constantly changing shit around in the interests of trying to save a train wreck.

The short version is that the worst aspects of 06's design were set in stone the moment Sonic Team received the green light, and the most you would've gotten from giving it another 6-12 months to finish would still be at best mediocre results - nothing short of quitting while they were ahead and cancelling the whole thing would have saved them. You can only hope they continue in spirit some day with similar concepts that gel together better, and well in that case, I hope Sonic Forces works out well for you. =V

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45 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Congratulations, you've proven Sonic 06 has cleared literally the lowest bar needed to demonstrate it is in fact a functioning videogame.

...what does this have to do with it being good or bad?

I hear this excuse a lot, especially when this game is concerned, and every time they neglect to consider the following: a lot of what happened in 06, happened because they were following design documents that had been made prior, and not simply because they didn't put the time and effort into it. What you could argue that's missing from that plan - certain cutscenes and story arcs if there are any, ommission and malfunction of certain mechanics like Sonic's gems, etc - is fair enough. But not only are most of those at worst minor gripes, most of the reasons 06 is considered a bad game anyway is because of aspects that were already in the plans from pretty much the word go. For example, that stupid and unbearably sappy romance subplot that Sonic got in lieu of any actual relevance to the game's events bar the last hour or so, or level design so basic that in some cases it's literally a flat plain with boxes strewn over it, or the janky, ill-thought moveset concepts of most of the cast in general.

Now you're probably going to say "well they can change those things!", and... well, no. They really can't, not without a great degree of difficulty. The reason these documents exist in game development is because videogames tend to be worked on by a metric fuckton of people at a time. And a metric fuckton of people is very hard to keep focused, you can't just individually brief each and every one of them on what they need to do all the time. So design documents and other such things exist to give a large number of workers a quick reference on what needs to be done - and if you start tinkering with the core documents after work already starts, it creates a butterfly effect that can culminate in an absolute clusterfuck of development hell. You yourself already mentioned Duke Forever, so you should already be familiar with what happens when you obsess with constantly changing shit around in the interests of trying to save a train wreck.

The short version is that the worst aspects of 06's design were set in stone the moment Sonic Team received the green light, and the most you would've gotten from giving it another 6-12 months to finish would still be at best mediocre results - nothing short of quitting while they were ahead and cancelling the whole thing would have saved them. You can only hope they continue in spirit some day with similar concepts that gel together better, and well in that case, I hope Sonic Forces works out well for you. =V

The main thing that was wrong with 06 in my opinion is how Sonic just snaps to whatever he's standing on, no momentum and how he drops like a brick awkwardly if you let go of the stick while wall running. Also how broken loops and tubes are where the game basically freaks out. So basically they fucked up hard in the original engine prototype stage and never cared to fix it, or they just didn't have time because it took them so long to get anything running on the hardware. Wouldn't be surprised if programmers at Sonic Team are paid pennies so they just don't really give that many shits.

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Looking and reading interviews show that a lot was cut and a lot was unfinished. The rainbow gem. Online mp. Dlc...actual good dlc was planned but in the end it was all dropped because when you lose your head and then lose half your team to go work on a wii game just to give them something your not going to care to fix a lot. And a lot could have if that motivation was still there.  sure 06 left a spiky stick up a lot of people's butts they just don't feel like pulling out but the end all did not end life on earth. And while the romance was not well written at all if was not that bad. Just a like of fanfic writers were upset sonic wasn't with Amy who's love story is just as badly written

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1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

And while the romance was not well written at all if was not that bad.

Nope, it was pretty fudging bad. Ignoring the automatic disadvantage of "I love this Hedgehog I've barely known", the game also goes on bizarre Twilight-tier tangents that highly suggest that Elise doesn't even care for her own father that she knew for years since she supposedly never cried for his death, but when a blue hedgehog comes about, that SOMEHOW brings on the water works with his death.

Look, Animal/human romance in fictional media can be done and actually work to an extent (self-awareness of tone be key most times) so taking bestiality out of the equation we're still left with one of the lowest of romance titles that has no spark, no sense, no nothing positive to it, and it's an incredibly huge issue because the entire game's plot hinges on that very base!

Amy for comparison actually has gotten to know Sonic over the years since Sonic CD. True while her crush on him can range from cute to creepy, it at least feels more genuine and actually warranted. Oh and also, unlike Elise, Amy's actually resourceful and capable in her own rights! Hell, I'm more of a Sonaze person and even I'd see more reason for Amy to actually be the one that wakes up Sonic over Elise.

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1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Nope, it was pretty fudging bad. Ignoring the automatic disadvantage of "I love this Hedgehog I've barely known", the game also goes on bizarre Twilight-tier tangents that highly suggest that Elise doesn't even care for her own father that she knew for years since she supposedly never cried for his death, but when a blue hedgehog comes about, that SOMEHOW brings on the water works with his death.

Look, Animal/human romance in fictional media can be done and actually work to an extent (self-awareness of tone be key most times) so taking bestiality out of the equation we're still left with one of the lowest of romance titles that has no spark, no sense, no nothing positive to it, and it's an incredibly huge issue because the entire game's plot hinges on that very base!

Amy for comparison actually has gotten to know Sonic over the years since Sonic CD. True while her crush on him can range from cute to creepy, it at least feels more genuine and actually warranted. Oh and also, unlike Elise, Amy's actually resourceful and capable in her own rights! Hell, I'm more of a Sonaze person and even I'd see more reason for Amy to actually be the one that wakes up Sonic over Elise.

Amy's crush early on was mainly creepy. He'll first thing she does is huggle you like a first time con goer. And as I stated before had Sega written out anything in the game it would have been better. Not sure about you but having a time god in my body that could escape through my tears and being told you can't cry or the world's going to burnwith little children crying that leads me to a life of boredom and royal rules everyday for the next 14 years as I'm guessing she was around 5 at the time. And for the epic blue hedgehog to come out of nowhere to save me from a attack on my city with next to no guards would excite someone. And over time of being chased also exciting.  But to have it taken away in front of you would be hard. At least her dad died off screen away from her

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18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

. And as I stated before had Sega written out anything in the game it would have been better.

More like if they'd gone with a different draft after throwing te one we got in the fire, but I digress. Regardless, there's no point in trying to ward off criticism of what the story IS with how things could've supposedly gone better.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Not sure about you but having a time god in my body that could escape through my tears

Elise never knew about that.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

being told you can't cry or the world's going to burnwith little children crying that leads me to a life of boredom and royal rules everyday for the next 14 years

Bull. She was never told not to cry because of that. In fact as you yourself stated, her father, when he actually explained the matter of Iblis being trapped within Elise, to Silver, NOT Elise, and gave the speech of "not crying" to said KOed Elise, died while she was unconscious and unaware. "Off screen" as far as she was concerned. In the flashback, which is before his death, he tells her not to cry so she can grow up to be a strong queen.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Not sure about you but having a time god in my body that could escape through my tears and being told you can't cry or the world's going to burnwith little children crying that leads me to a life of boredom and royal rules everyday for the next 14 years as I'm guessing she was around 5 at the time.

What exactly are you saying you'd do if you were in that situation? That you'd not cry a single tear for your own family, but you would cry buckets over someone you just met and not even interacted with that much in comparison?

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

And for the epic blue hedgehog to come out of nowhere to save me from a attack on my city with next to no guards would excite someone.

What does this have to do with crying?

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

And over time of being chased also exciting.  But to have it taken away in front of you would be hard.

So you're saying now that Elise cared more about the thrills than an actual legitimate romance? Cause that's not gonna earn the girl brownie points.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

At least her dad died off screen away from her

Traumatic incident, Solaris Flames nearly killing her, and all on the same day that she finds out her Dad's dead? Nope, not gonna buy it, given also how emotionally fragile the game's story makes her out to be.

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10 hours ago, Meta77 said:

the only reason we got what we did was cause it was rushed.

No, rushed production was a factor yes, but not the main factor, It was because of Yuji Naka's terrible management of just allowing the development team to do whatever like splitting themselves in 2 to make an uneeded Wii version only to later change it into a different game.

Sonic 06 defenders, please read this and get your facts straight, I'm honestly baffled by how after all these years people still say that if it wasn't rushed it would be amazing:

https://andrearitsu.com/2015/08/01/just-how-did-sonic-2006-happen/

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7 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

More like if they'd gone with a different draft after throwing te one we got in the fire, but I digress. Regardless, there's no point in trying to ward off criticism of what the story IS with how things could've supposedly gone better.

Elise never knew about that.

Bull. She was never told not to cry because of that. In fact as you yourself stated, her father, when he actually explained the matter of Iblis being trapped within Elise, to Silver, NOT Elise, died while she was unconscious and unaware. "Off screen" as far as she was concerned. In the flashback, which is before his death, he tells her not to cry so she can grow up to be a strong queen.

What exactly are you saying you'd do if you were in that situation? That you'd not cry a single tear for your own family, but you would cry buckets over someone you just met and not even interacted with that much in comparison?

What does this have to do with crying?

So you're saying now that Elise cared more about the thrills than an actual legitimate romance? Cause that's not gonna earn the girl brownie points.

Traumatic incident, Solaris Flames nearly killing her, and all on the same day that she finds out her Dad's dead? Nope, not gonna buy it, given also how emotionally fragile the game's story makes her out to be.

Your going to sit there and act like she didn't have some hint to what was in her. No let's ignore the random fire god visions I keep having.  Yea that's just what everyone dreams of.  emotionally fragile the f. Besides the sigh my life is boring she spent most her time jumping off things and ignoring eggman. And the thrills and romance go together on that one.and off screen he could have made mention that she can't cry to protect her people. Hell i go back yo the visions although Sega goofed with. It's you.....it can't be. She never saw silver.  how the hell did she think sonic was him. Are all people in the game color blind.

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Quote

No, rushed production was a factor yes, but not the main factor, It was because of Yuji Naka's terrible management of just allowing the development team to do whatever like splitting themselves in 2 to make an uneeded Wii version only to later change it into a different game.

Ironic how that Wii game in question gave a much better story by far. I'd love to see someone try and claim that the writing staff were split to the point where it also hurt 06. Pffft.

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2 minutes ago, pppp said:

No, rushed production was a factor yes, but not the main factor, It was because of Yuji Naka's terrible management of just allowing the development team to do whatever like splitting themselves in 2 to make an uneeded Wii version only to later change it into a different game.

Sonic 06 defenders, please read this and get your facts straight, I'm honestly baffled by how after all these years people still say that if it wasn't rushed it would be amazing:

https://andrearitsu.com/2015/08/01/just-how-did-sonic-2006-happen/

Took me a hot second to see that's noting more than a fans quick put together. Sega themselves in interviews have stated we got what we got cause the danb thing was rushed. Yuki just up and leaving. Christmas deadline. No delays like mania gets and cutting the time in half to cater to the Wii for whatever reason. All factors lead to the mess dished out

8 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

 

Ironic how that Wii game in question gave a much better story by far. I'd love to see someone try and claim that the writing staff were split to the point where it also hurt 06. Pffft.

That's cause technically the story was written out for then to copy and tweak. Hard to screw up aladdin

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Just now, Meta77 said:

Sega themselves in interviews have stated we got what we got cause the danb thing was rushed.

Well of course that's what they said officially, you do realise companies can't just say "Oh yeah we tottally fucked the whole development process with our incompetence" right?

If SEGA tells you that Rise of Lyric also only sucked cause of rushed production and not because of shitty management and developer incompetence would you believe that too?

Crash Twinsanity was rushed and yet that game turned out fine because the developers actually knew what they were doing and managed to make something acceptable.

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16 minutes ago, pppp said:

Well of course that's what they said officially, you do realise companies can't just say "Oh yeah we tottally fucked the whole development process with our incompetence" right?

If SEGA tells you that Rise of Lyric also only sucked cause of rushed production and not because of shitty management and developer incompetence would you believe that too?

Crash Twinsanity was rushed and yet that game turned out fine because the developers actually knew what they were doing and managed to make something acceptable.

Big red button made that mess. And twin sanity was just that. Acceptable at best

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26 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Big red button made that mess.

So my question was:

43 minutes ago, pppp said:

If SEGA tells you that Rise of Lyric also only sucked cause of rushed production and not because of shitty management and developer incompetence would you believe that too?

I fail to see how that answers my question. BRB only made the game, they didn't finance and publish it, so SEGA carries most of the blame for forcing them to put the game on Wii U and not giving them the proper time and resources to do so.

Again, answer my question so I can try to understand where you're coming from.

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Just now, pppp said:

So my question was:

I fail to see how that answers my question. BRB only made the game, they didn't finance and publish it, so SEGA carries most of the blame for forcing them to put the game on Wii U and not giving them the proper time and resources to do so.

Again, answer my question so I can try to understand where you're coming from.

That Sega did not make it. If someone says they will make you a sandwich but you pay them and say have it done by 12. But when you get it at 11:50 and see it's missing the contents besides bread and ketchup. Not much you can do besides go with it

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1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

That Sega did not make it. If someone says they will make you a sandwich but you pay them and say have it done by 12. But when you get it at 11:50 and see it's missing the contents besides bread and ketchup. Not much you can do besides go with it

....Taking aside the fact that that analogy is terrible, it doesn't matter that BRB made it. SEGA was the one in charge so they take responsibilty(most of it at least). If you're gonna defend a crap game at least try to have a decent argument.

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3 minutes ago, pppp said:

....Taking aside the fact that that analogy is terrible, it doesn't matter that BRB made it. SEGA was the one in charge so they take responsibilty(most of it at least). If you're gonna defend a crap game at least try to have a decent argument.

And ice done just that. Just cause it's rubbed salt on you some odd way doesn't disprove I've done just that.  from saying it was a rushed. Untested. Game shipped for no other reason than to hit a Christmas deadline and I'll still say it's not that bad as some fans and I strongly use the word some act as if eaten himself forced them to play it

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1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

That's cause technically the story was written out for then to copy and tweak. Hard to screw up aladdin

Wrong again. SATSR's story wasn't an adaptation of Aladdin, let alone of just that one story. It was story that happened to have characters and settings from various Arabian Tales.

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

Your going to sit there and act like she didn't have some hint to what was in her. No let's ignore the random fire god visions I keep having.  Yea that's just what everyone dreams of.

I never said she didn't have hints. What I'm stating is that said "hints" were too obscure for her to piece together the specifics of the situation. Like, how is she supposed to know that crying releases Iblis? The story never tells or shows us. What does Elise even think about the dreams? The story never tells or properly shows us. Hell, the most we get is her recounting the old legend of Solaris who the town worships.

And I'm not even gonna start arguing about the many things that bizare dreams can mean, given how contrived 06 is already to make such even work with such little sufficient build-up.

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

Besides the sigh my life is boring she spent most her time jumping off things and ignoring eggman. And the thrills and romance go together on that one.

That sounds like more the makings of self-ish and suicidal Bell Swan-like caricature who doesn't give two toots about her kingdom. Not to mention, she jumped like once. Escaped once with Amy, And every other time, pretty much just waited for Sonic to rescue her.

 

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

and off screen he could have made mention that she can't cry to protect her people.

Considering how her death would also bring about the release of Iblis, I highly doubt they shared such a conversation where he would mentioned the crying clause and NOT the fact that Iblis is freed upon death too.

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

Hell i go back yo the visions although Sega goofed with. It's you.....it can't be. She never saw silver.  how the hell did she think sonic was him. Are all people in the game color blind.

Trying to defend 06's plotholes and stupidity with admittance to another problem in 06's campaigns isn't going to cut it.

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1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

And ice done just that. Just cause it's rubbed salt on you some odd way doesn't disprove I've done just that.  from saying it was a rushed. Untested. Game shipped for no other reason than to hit a Christmas deadline and I'll still say it's not that bad as some fans and I strongly use the word some act as if eaten himself forced them to play it

You know what? Considering you're a Sonic fanboy by your own admission(Not to mention that avatar makes me question other things about you), you're most certainly not gonna listen to reason, so goodbye, not gonna waste more time.

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3 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Wrong again. SATSR's story wasn't an adaptation of Aladdin, let alone of just that one story. It was story that happened to have characters and settings from various Arabian Tales.

I never said she didn't have hints. What I'm stating is that said "hints" were too obscure for her to piece together the specifics of the situation. Like, how is she supposed to know that crying releases Iblis? The story never tells or shows us. What does Elise even think about the dreams? The story never tells or properly shows us. Hell, the most we get is her recounting the old legend of Solaris who the town worships.

And I'm not even gonna start arguing about the many things that bizare dreams can mean, given how contrived 06 is already to make such even work with such little sufficient build-up.

That sounds like more the makings of self-ish and suicidal Bell Swan-like caricature who doesn't give two toots about her kingdom. Not to mention, she jumped like once. Escaped once with Amy, And every other time, pretty much just waited for Sonic to rescue her.

 

Considering how her death would also bring about the release of Iblis, I highly doubt that shared such a conversation where he would mentioned the crying clause and NOT the fact that Iblis is freed upon death too.

Trying to defend 06's plotholes and stupidity with admittance to another problem in 06's campaigns isn't going to cut it.

Lol ok you got me on that one.

 

But secret rings the story is still there the original take of the weaker ring genie and stronger lamp genie.  it's not a word from word but closely tied to it

4 minutes ago, pppp said:

You know what? Considering you're a Sonic fanboy by your own admission(Not to mention that avatar makes me question other things about you), you're most certainly not gonna listen to reason, so goodbye, not gonna waste more time.

Yes I am a fanboy but I'll admit when a games bad. You just seen to have some stick you sar on called 06 you have some edgy hate for.  regardless good day sir. And I like yugioh. Get over it

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5 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Lol ok you got me on that one.

 

But secret rings the story is still there the original take of the weaker ring genie and stronger lamp genie.  it's not a word from word but closely tied to it

Yes I am a fanboy but I'll admit when a games bad. You just seen to have some stick you sar on called 06 you have some edgy hate for.  regardless good day sir. And I like yugioh. Get over it

Actually It's not the fact that you like Yugioh, its what's in the avatar that makes me uneasy.

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19 minutes ago, pppp said:

Actually It's not the fact that you like Yugioh, its what's in the avatar that makes me uneasy.

Lol I'll give you that out of conte,t it is odd but ive had that avi since 2011 about when that came out. I just don't feel like changing it cause I can be very lazy. But I guess I could

 

YThere you go. Swimsuit shantae ftw

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Oh, well... talking about sticks and hornet's nests...

When I wrote about other long loading "screens", it seems I didn't make one thing clear enough; I do enjoy a lot of those games (Windows isn't a game and it's more like "must have" than a choice) I brought up. It was more of an example of how I can still enjoy something even if it takes some time to load it, not that I was saying '06 isn't that bad because other long loading screens exists. Sorry about that, I just have this problem of if something's clear enough in my head the thing I take out isn't as clear since I forget to point some things out. Sorry. :unsure: That and I'm irritated over memes, very mature person I am... -_-

I just remembered actually reading somewhere about how there would maybe have been more stages etc. if not having such a shortage of time/workers. I'm not that good of a programmer (I know some stuff but not that much), but maybe there's a problem because of that fact; like, there's empty "places" for the content that was never made/used in the final version that the game still browses trough as it tries to find right file/something. I think if they didn't have the time to tweak the system, it would go looping around and try to see if there's a file/something where exists just an empty space. And that would take some time to find the thing needed since it's always so interesting to search the insides of empty holes. I always hated those things, went for the "if" because using "while" was so hard before I got it.

For the record, I'm not trying to defend anybody, I'm just trying to wrap my head over some possibilities over said fact. The idea I came along wouldn't explain every loading screen after all. Quite possible it doesn't explain anything. :rolleyes:

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