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Official Sonic 2006 topic

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26 minutes ago, Ashwalking Bat said:

Yeah. I have had a few times where that has happened. Adventure is one game I actually try to be careful with when playing. Since one mistake can tend to fuck you over in one way or another.

Ah, so that´s why I am f.....g up :D

26 minutes ago, Ashwalking Bat said:

Well, if you do end up playing it. Good Luck to you. And yeah. I am not all that sure why it's still so expensive since there is the Xbox One/Xbox One X now.

I probably try and find the necessarity on the internet, maybe. Just maybe. If I use this, it would make 06 disappear. Or not.

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Just now, superman43 said:

Ah, so that´s why I am f.....g up :D

Yeah. Sonic Adventure wasn't a hard game by any stretch. But it was either due to the camera or something in the level getting janky that'll either mess you up or kill you. Though because the levels tend behave a bit weird, that leaves less room for mistakes. Since the level can mess up what you are doing bad.

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5 minutes ago, Ashwalking Bat said:

Yeah. Sonic Adventure wasn't a hard game by any stretch. But it was either due to the camera or something in the level getting janky that'll either mess you up or kill you. Though because the levels tend behave a bit weird, that leaves less room for mistakes. Since the level can mess up what you are doing bad.

Yeah learned that the hard way. Anyway I just play Emerald Coast and Speed Highway all the time. Other levels are a bit blend I think.

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Honestly, Emerald Coast and Speed Highway tended to have the most memorable moments in them with Sonic. Emerald Coast being lovely beach and ocean. Just in general a very scenic level. Speed Highway had a lot going for it in the first act anyway. Being able to run fast on the platforming and that building run down to the ground just gave me such a rush. Just thinking about running down that building in SA excites me.

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On 4/25/2017 at 9:37 PM, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Okay, so to break and shake things up a bit in this topic (although knowing my luck I'm probably just repeating something I posted here a long time ago), here's a hypothetical scenario:

How would you have reacted to the story of Sonic 06 if it turned out that the events of the story were really subconsciously created by Silver to cover up a traumatic event?

The big twist would be as follows:

Spoiler

Iblis did not actually destroy Soleanna, but in reality it was Silver after being put through hellish trauma in his childhood for his psychic powers, to the point he decimated the entire city and everyone in it in a psychic powered meltdown. Horrified by what he did and unable to face the truth of his actions, he essentially trapped himself inside a psychic illusion of Soleanna. However, he deep down knew the truth, but ended up fragmenting his mind in the process, creating several constructs representing different aspects of himself.

Iblis, who represented his fear of his powers and losing control again.

Mephiles, who represents his desire to avoid facing his fears by any means necessary.

Elise, who represents his sense of helplessness in the face of the horrors he caused. She also disappears once Silver has his realization...for reasons I can't articulate. Help me on this.

and finally fake-Blaze, who was based off of a photo of Blaze he found somewhere before his meltdown. She represents his desire to finally confront the truth and move on, but she can only truly fulfill her part only if Silver himself is willing.

Of course, Silver can't face his trauma, so he creates the plot of 06 with the crazy time travel thing and Mephiles' convoluted plan (basically his interpretation of an evil mastermind's plan) to put himself as the hero and avoid facing the truth, which due to his psychic powers manifests in reality and also sticks him in a permanent loop since he deep down knows none of it is real.

With this in mind, Sonic and Shadow basically stumble into Silver's self-created prison by accident (Sonic because he was waffling around, Shadow because he was tasked by GUN to look into some mysterious disappearances around the area), and through a combination of snarking, encouragement, exposing the odd inconsistencies in Silver's psychic realm, and some old-fashioned buttkicking, Silver is forced to realize that Soleanna's destruction is his fault, and that the time traveling Iblis Mephiles kudzu plot that puts him in the position as the hero in the canon(?) game is really just his delusions trying to cover up his pain and trauma (basically there was no time travel at all, thus ensuring that the Chaos Emeralds don't become a plothole/part of a plothole).

Afterwards, Mephiles and Blaze are revealed to have become self-aware, with the former wanting to keep the mental prison forever because it's what keeps the constructs alive, while fake Blaze wants to end it because she knows that innocent people are being hurt by Silver's powers and she also wants Silver himself to move on. Stuff happens, Sonic and Shadow convince Silver to finally stand against Mephiles and Iblis, big battle ensues, Silver's mental prison finally shatters, and the three hedgehogs and the missing people are free, but the constructs disappear. Silver is now having to figure out where he can go from this point and *insert a happy ending here* or something because I can't think of anything. Or maybe just have Silver turn out to be a ghost all along or something.

PHEW! So what do you think?

Minor update that people may or may not care about:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=916521&type=status

I'd actually found out a way to incorporate this bit of status, in which I sorta joked about a scenario where it turns out that Silver himself is an artificial lifeform created by a project created in response to Project Shadow called Project Vanguard. In the 06 alternate verse version of that, Project Vanguard would have successfully made Silver, but he either didn't turn out right or his powers didn't manifest the way they expected. As such, in an attempt to goad his powers out/a belief that the project was a failure, they placed Silver into the middle of Soleanna to let him live a normal life...at least until either by intent or accident, someone found out that he was an artificial lifeform.

Now Soleanna in this version is a deeply religious/superstitious community, and when people found out about Silver's nature, they decried him as an abomination, leading to extensive abuse and scorn directed at him. For one reason or another, the project leaders either couldn't do anything about it, or deliberately chose not to do anything about it in hopes of gaining some data on what would happen/hoping to awaken his powers/FOR SCIENCE! And maybe some sort of thing involving Elise where she was the only one who tried to see past that for his real nature or something, only for tragedy to strike in the most unfortunate way possible.

Then it leads into the spoiler above.

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I've heard rumours that 06 was supposed to be a non-Sonic game or something, which would explain stuff like Solaris, Elise or why it feels like a bootleg final fantasy game. I was wondering, is this rumour accurate?

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I can't say how much of the rumor is true, but based on some rumors I've heard and how tacked on Eggman and Sonic feel, as well as how Shadow at one point was even reported to be console exclusive content, I can easily believe. I've always felt like Sonic and Eggman could be taken out of the game and you'd end up with a pretty streamlined Shadow the Hedgehog game guest starring Silver the Hedgehog. Taking notes from stuff I've heard about Zero from the Megaman franchise the game could have very well been meant to be a game to try and better use Shadow and show what type of character he was becoming after finally putting his past behind him and looking towards the future. It would even make certain plot points between him and Mephiles make since if the romantic relationship with Elise was his since he was show to be able to fight against the copy near indefinitely which would also justify sending Silver back in time to try and take him out. Of course all of that could just be my crazy imagination running away with me as normal, but I digress.

To more accurately answer the question, yes I believe it was originally meant to be a Shadow the Hedgehog game but it got canned and then cannibalized when Naka presented his idea for a new Sonic game. It would have been a way to recover the losses for developing a scrapped Shadow game and easily could have frustrated Naka as he was forced to undermine his vision so SEGA corporate could save a buck or two easily resulting in him finally walking out on them. All supposition to be sure, but it always kind of looked that way to me after playing the game.

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Basically... no, I've never heard anything of the sort and I'm sure either Sonic Wikia would be all over it if there was some evidence.

And really, there is absolutely nothing in the game that is any stranger or "more Final Fantasy" than what we got in the Adventure games, which were also filled with human characters, a realistic setting and mythical fantasy abominations.  If stuff feels tacked on or out-of-place, it's much more likely that it's because Sonic Team just did a bad job/didn't get to finish the game than "it was meant to be a different game".

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I think I remember hearing some talk about Silver's gameplay being based on some unrelated pitch that didn't work out, but nothing about the entire game being adapted from something originally not-Sonic.

Nor do I see reason to assume it was. As much as I think '06 is just about the antithesis of what Sonic should be, it didn't come out of nowhere; '06 is the direct culmination of the Adventure era. You've got your modern cities, your realistic human NPCs, your supernatural monsters, your government coverups of questionable science experiments, your heavy focus on story, your large playable cast showcasing the story from different points of view, your dark hedgehog antagonist, your "cool" new hedgehog hero, you've even got Wave Ocean explicitly homaging Emerald Coast with its boardwalk whale chase. Nearabout everything in '06 is in line with the Adventures or just a few steps further in that direction.

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The cancelled game believed to have played a role in the basis for Silver's gameplay was called Fifth Phantom Saga and was in development for the PS3, for anyone interested. It had reached some kind of playable build at the very least, as E3 demo footage is out there.

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A lot of people say and agree that the really dark era of Sonic really stated with 06. Ad not only that it really damaged the whole image and reputation of Sonic in the community, to the point where people who aren't part of the fandom can't take Sonic and Sega anymore seriously and the character itself became a big joke around the world. The series was on rock bottom at this point where Sega and Sonic Team really had to start over fresh, focused on the more simpler ideas and banished everything else from the old formula. But...

...what if Sonic 06 would be a a good game or at least as okay as SA and SA2? Would it effected the series and how would Sonic games be now, if 06 would have been a great game? I personally think that Sonic games would have those ideas expanded:

Story

When it comes to the stories and characters, I think they will be more mature and the characters themselves would act less or not goofy at all. I also think that the focus will be ore on the new generations of characters like Shadow or/and Silver. If you think about it since SA2 Sonic kinda was overshadowed by all the new introduced characters and was until Unleashed happen always more of a side character story wise. The new stories would have focused much more on Shadow, Silver and other brand new characters that would be introduced in future games. With Mephilis and Elise it is kinda tricky. Mephilis would hav died, but Elise could have become a recurring regular. Maybe even Sonic's official love interest and the Princess Peach or Princess Zelda of this universe. 

World

If 06 would have been a well received game, I think the world would have stayed this semi-realistic looking one. Humans would have been recurring citizens of this world and will not be banished from his world like in the newer games. Maybe even the characters themselves would have in later games a more semi-realistic look. I do not think they would have gone back to a more goofier looking world like Colors or Lost World and the more cartoony characters like Chip, the Deadly Six, Orbot and Cutbot would have never been crated.

Playable characters

This is an element I'm almost 100% that it would have been used more if Sonic 06 wasn't such an atrocious game. Silver in particularly would have expanded his gameplay and they would have used him much more as a character. Same also goes for Blaze. 

Music 

I think the butt-rock music would have been the the regular music direction for Sonic like happy-go-lucky-music for the Kirby series and environmental music for Crash Bandicoot. 

 

This all I could think off. What is your opinion about this what if scenario? How would the series be if 06 was a good or maybe even great game?

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Yeah, I guess the title pretty much speaks for itself.  While the Sonic Adventure games are my favorite games of all time, I freely admit that there are plenty of flaws that could be ironed out or improved to make a truly fantastic 3D Sonic game.  In that way, Sonic 06 succeeded in some regards, and despite the game's infamous reputation I think it's only fair to point out the things it did right.  I'm not saying it's a better game than Adventure 1 or 2, not by a long shot, but I do genuinely believe it did several things better than its predecessors.  With that said, I'll get us started.

1. Making Sonic feel like the main character of the game

A common complaint I hear about 06's story is that Sonic himself has a miniscule role in the plot, and all of the important events are covered in Shadow and Silver's stories, but I don't agree with that at all.  I'd certainly agree with the Adventure games, since he had absolutely no connection to Chaos, Tikal, Professor Gerald, the ARK, etc.  Rather than being a genuine character with a narrative role in the story, Sonic was more like a plot device to fight the bad guys and save the day simply because he was the only one strong enough to do so.  In 06, however, that's not quite the case.  True, for most of the story Sonic's only goal is to save Elise from Eggman, and remains oblivious to the bigger picture with Iblis, Mephiles and Solaris, which are covered in Shadow and Silver's stories.  However, I don't think it's fair to say that Sonic has no role in the story because of that.  Shadow and Silver certainly have their own important agendas, but ultimately they're secondary to the real meat of the story, which is Sonic's relationship with Elise.  At the beginning of the game, Sonic admits he has no special reason to want to help her, but over the course of the game they develop a strong bond, which eventually blossoms into romance.  Mephiles wants Sonic killed so that Elise will cry and release Iblis, Silver goes back in time to do just that in hopes it will save the future, and Shadow needs to prevent Silver from doing that in order to expose and defeat Mephiles.  Ultimately, all narrative threads lead back to Sonic.  While Shadow and Silver resolve their respective arcs at the end of their stories, Sonic's is not resolved until the last story, where his death at the hands of Mephiles sets everything into motion.  After Solaris is defeated and Elise refuses to blow out the flame, it's the bond she spent the game developing with Sonic that gives her the strength to do so.  Now, it's perfectly fair to argue that Sonic's story was the least interesting, or the most poorly-written of the three, and even that it's not fitting in a Sonic game to begin with, but to say that he had no role in 06's story is simply not true.

2. Level design that compliments every character

This is something that Adventure 1 was sporadic about.  Since the game's 11 levels were shared between 6 characters, overlap was inevitable.  In the cases of Knuckles, Amy, Gamma and Big, they did for the most part have altered level design and layouts that catered to their unique abilities.  However, Tails was by far the worst offender.  In his case, he was utterly broken because he simply had to go through stages that were clearly designed for Sonic, not him, and could effortlessly fly through every obstacle Sonic would normally encounter.  Even worse, Tails' levels were littered with dash rings that could help keep him in the air even longer.  The only level that tried to give Tails unique level design was Speed Highway, and even that was a breeze to fly through.  Now, Adventure 2 did away with this problem entirely by having each character go through stages unique to only them.  And while that led to more balanced level design, I think it took away the charm of having characters go through the same places, but in different ways.  In that way, I think 06 struck a nice balance.  All 3 hedgehogs go through the same 9 stages, but in different orders and in ways that compliment their individual playstyles.  In Dusty Desert, for example, Sonic runs through the desert with Elise, Shadow rides through the desert on a hovercraft before entering the hidden ruins, and Silver travels through a temple with puzzles that require his powers to solve.  This also extends to the extra characters that could momentarily take over for the main trio.  When Tails/Knuckles took over for Sonic, the level design changed to compliment flying/gliding.  When Blaze took over for Silver, the level became more speed-oriented, and so on.  Because of that, I never felt like going through the same levels with different characters was repetitive.  If the developers can create levels that can be experienced by different characters with different abilities and compliment each one in its own way, that's good design in my book.

3. Unique boss fights

The last point sort of bleeds into this one, but I still think its worth mentioning on its own.  In Adventure 1, the boss fights were almost an afterthought, either because each character had so few of them or the ones that they did have were incredibly samey, in both story and gameplay.  With Chaos 4, for example, he was fought by either Sonic, Tails or Knuckles depending on whose story you play, all at the exact same point in the story and defeated in the exact same way.  Adventure 2 wasn't much better, since it was mostly either character battles or G.U.N. robots that weren't much different from each other.  While 06 does have some offenders of this, like the Egg Cerberus and Iblis Phase 2, for the most part Sonic, Shadow and Silver not only had a decent number of bosses each, but the ones they shared were fought under different circumstances and defeated in different ways.  Sonic fights the Egg Genesis in Soleanna Forest, and defeats it by attacking the head.  Silver fights it in White Acropolis, and defeats it by deflecting missiles back at it.  Another thing the 06 bosses do that the Adventure bosses (mostly) didn't was take advantage of the unique terrain.  When Sonic fights the Egg Wyvern, he crashes it into debris falling from the Egg Carrier, while the base itself is firing down on you.  During Silver's first fight against Iblis in Crisis City, Iblis picks up entire skyscrapers and tosses them at you, the rubble of which you can fling back at him.  I'm not necessarily saying the bosses themselves were especially well-designed, but the attempt at making each encounter more creative and immersive was appreciated.

That should give us a decent starting point.  If anyone else has any additions to the list or has anything to say about the examples I posted, feel free to discuss!

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6 minutes ago, SonicWindAttack said:

Now, it's perfectly fair to argue that Sonic's story was the least interesting, or the most poorly-written of the three, and even that it's not fitting in a Sonic game to begin with, but to say that he had no role in 06's story is simply not true.

Ok sure but his role is to be killed unceremoniously which isn't any better.

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Things Nex Gen did better than Adventure:

#1: Literally nothing.

Quote

1. Making Sonic feel like the main character of the game

Hmm, it didn't actually. Sonic's even less important in Nex Gen than he is in Adventure.

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I aleays thought that 06 downgrades a lot of the things SA1 did:

* Despite 06 being the 15th anniversary game, Sonic's entire purpose is to get kill for the real big baddie to show up. You could say that both Shadow and Silver are way more important to the plot than the character after whom the series is named.

* All characters play worse than they did in SA1 or SA2.

* While both SA1 and SA2 started the trend of having Sonic and company in more realistic settings, there were still some elements in the art direction that provided colorful, even wacky environments. 06 instead went for a more JRPG art direction that only made Sonic and his technicolor manimal friends feel even more out of place.

* While SA1 provided some insight into each of the main characters, 06 throws that narrative element out of the window in favor of a stupidly overcomplicated plot that involves making a princess cry.

* Some of the characters are butchered by ST's misguided desire to feature as many characters as possible. You get a Blaze whose whole backstory and personality are ignored, who is made sidekick to the new "S" named hedgeheg that was designed to try and repeat the success of Shadow or a Knuckles who shows up to deliver a letter and afterwards is literally "just there" for the rest of the game because god forbid you don't get the classic trio for that juicy dose of shallow S3&K pandering.

* The story chews more than it can bite with Silver's dilemma ("is saving the world worth killing one person"), and instead of a resolution that involves him learning why it's not through character development and an aesop, you get time travel via the serie's Deus Ex McGuffins known as the chaos emeralds (which apparently can do whatever the story needs them to do) to cheapen everything and deliver an anticlimatic resolution.

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1 hour ago, SonicWindAttack said:

1. Making Sonic feel like the main character of the game

A common complaint I hear about 06's story is that Sonic himself has a miniscule role in the plot, and all of the important events are covered in Shadow and Silver's stories, but I don't agree with that at all.  I'd certainly agree with the Adventure games, since he had absolutely no connection to Chaos, Tikal, Professor Gerald, the ARK, etc.  Rather than being a genuine character with a narrative role in the story, Sonic was more like a plot device to fight the bad guys and save the day simply because he was the only one strong enough to do so.  In 06, however, that's not quite the case.  True, for most of the story Sonic's only goal is to save Elise from Eggman, and remains oblivious to the bigger picture with Iblis, Mephiles and Solaris, which are covered in Shadow and Silver's stories.  However, I don't think it's fair to say that Sonic has no role in the story because of that.  Shadow and Silver certainly have their own important agendas, but ultimately they're secondary to the real meat of the story, which is Sonic's relationship with Elise.  At the beginning of the game, Sonic admits he has no special reason to want to help her, but over the course of the game they develop a strong bond, which eventually blossoms into romance.  Mephiles wants Sonic killed so that Elise will cry and release Iblis, Silver goes back in time to do just that in hopes it will save the future, and Shadow needs to prevent Silver from doing that in order to expose and defeat Mephiles.  Ultimately, all narrative threads lead back to Sonic.  While Shadow and Silver resolve their respective arcs at the end of their stories, Sonic's is not resolved until the last story, where his death at the hands of Mephiles sets everything into motion.  After Solaris is defeated and Elise refuses to blow out the flame, it's the bond she spent the game developing with Sonic that gives her the strength to do so.  Now, it's perfectly fair to argue that Sonic's story was the least interesting, or the most poorly-written of the three, and even that it's not fitting in a Sonic game to begin with, but to say that he had no role in 06's story is simply not true

I disagree hard on this point, because really - Sonic's only being set up to die to trigger the end-game of the story, and that didn't require a full campaign to do that. To say he has no role - I mean, technically he does. But it's nowhere near what other games did and hardly worth anything of note.

Sonic Adventure does a good job of keeping Sonic and Eggman's conflict at the centre of the story, and allowing everything else to spire off from it. All of the major points from the different characters spin-off him and follow his story because they're following Eggman's conflicts. Tails is dragged in by helping Sonic and has to develop on his own, Knuckles comes to blows with Sonic after being tricked by Eggman to stop Sonic in his tracks, Amy's later story portions only happen because she got caught up trying to convince Sonic to bring her to Twinkle Park. The only characters who don't get direct connections is Gamma and Big, and even at that - Big still connects in slightly by helping with Chaos 6 and accidentally hijacking the Tornado, which led to Sonic crash-landing in Mystic Ruins.

Sonic's story in of itself shows all of the stages of Chaos' transformation, and is the main driving force of 4 out of 6 plots in the game, as well as connecting into the Final Story. 

In 06, Sonic's story feels unimportant because his story is the one that just feels disjointed. His plot doesn't actually come into play until the last story of the game, and the only moment that even matters then is him literally getting run through with an energy sword so we can have Elise cry. The biggest problem with his story is it's completely repetitive as well. It's nothing but a constant back and forth of Sonic going to save Elise, Elise doing something fucking stupid and getting caught again, and Sonic saving her again. The few moments that presents her and Sonic connecting are absolutely awful to experience, and feels ridiculously awkward. 

And the problems only continue because of the fact Sonic's story only provides one piece of the puzzle, his death. Shadow and Silver's contain every other detail that we need in order to get any semblance of an over-arching narrative in this plot, otherwise you'd swear it was just about Eggman and Sonic playing keep away from each other for about three hours. The few moments Elise and Sonic share aren't interesting, good, or nice set up for the death later on, the interactions he does have with Shadow, Tails, Silver, Knuckles, and Amy is forcefully downplayed because every time, he has to have his eyes focused on saving Elise instead of doing anything else relevant to the main plot, and it's easy to see why it's deemed unimportant. Because the only narrative driven point in his story is done so badly either way that it might as well not even matter. 

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Ok I want to preface this by saying I have not played 06 but I recently watched the Great Clement's review of the game.

So what did it do better than Adventure from what I can tell...um...the CG Cutscenes are nicer?

I also really have to say no to the "It's about Sonic" thing. He barely had any real role in the story. I guess he made a connection with Elise so she'd cry when he died but he contributes so much less than anyone else. 

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