Official Sonic 2006 topic

[KHCast]

 

 

Right Totally, because in Sonic Adventure 2, he was SOOO Goofy how he blew up the moon, and threatened to Shoot Amy's head clean off. Yep, that't totally goofy, no denying that...

Or rather, enslaving a planet - Sonic CD

Or Maybe, Destroying an entire city with a water monster to build his city on top of - Sonic Adventure

Or perhaps, Attempting to destroy an entire country just to get one princess - Sonic 06

Probably even, Destroying a planet to get a demon to come out and destroy everything - Sonic Unleashed

 

Yep Totally Goofy, I'm sorry I doubted you. You have my sincerest Apologies.

CD, Unleashed and even the Sonic Adventure games still had elements and times where Eggman was goofy in some form. I didn't say ALWAYS goofy. I said one way or another. 06 tried to make everyone serious, and it failed flat on its face so using that is pretty useless.

 

And could you cut the attitude please?

[FireBird75]

 

 

"written by writers who didn't know what they were doing and put no thought into it whatsoever."

You know what's ironic about that statement? This game was written by the same people who wrote Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes. 2 games that were adored for their story.

 

And you know what? That's incorrect!

Sonic Adventure's story was written by Akinori Nishiyama & Sonic Adventure 2's was by Shiro Maekawa.

06's was by Shun Nakamura, who I note, has never written a story for a Sonic game since.

[Spin Attaxx]

Isn't that the point of debates or rather discussions? Sure, stop, your only helping my points look superior but not showing how they are stupid as you said. But that's just me.

Actually it's more like me saying "06 isn't Shit, and here's why" with you saying "Yes it is because of this" and me saying "No it isn't because this means this". 

 

Saying it's a piece of Shit doesn't make it true, it makes it your opinion. And opinions are the exact opposite of fact. Therefore people should be able to defend it especially if they have valid points.

Plotholes are not opinions. They are facts. Irrefutable, unarguable, rock-solid facts.

 

Mephiles not absorbing Iblis in the future when nothing tells us he couldn't do so IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

Blaze obviously being shoehorned in IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

Sonic being shoved out of the limelight while his costars focus on the IMPORTANT part of the story IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

Elise somehow managing to never cry in her entire life EVEN AFTER HER DAD DIES IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

I could go on all day.

 

You know what's ironic about that statement? This game was written by the same people who wrote Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes. 2 games that were adored for their story.

Firebird already explained this, but you're implying that just because they wrote one good story that somehow means they are incapable of writing crap. That's stupid reasoning. Also, Heroes had no story, it was nothing but "Sonic and friends do things and then Metal Sonic was behind it all".

 

You aren't FORCED to assume he's an idiot. You just presume he is because you lack proper evidence saying he is, but if evidence were introduced it could in turn make him either more stupid or even smarter than before.ss likely to do so.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that they didn't explain why he can't just merge with Iblis in the future or kill Elise or anything.

 

That's like Saying Gun is stupid for killing Maria when they could've had a valid reason for doing so.

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe G.U.N. was stupid for killing the young child who was in no way a threat to them? Especially considering how it caused a guy to enact a plan to destroy the world?

[Rusty Spy]

You aren't FORCED to assume he's an idiot.

We kind of are, because we're never given any clear explanation to why Mephiles couldn't achieve his goals through far simpler methods. You assume he simply wants to mess with everyone, fair enough, but his actions are incredibly vague at informing the audience of his true motives. He goes through the trouble of getting Silver to murder Sonic to get Elise to cry, yet he ends up doing just that all by himself. If he wanted to mess with everyone, then why is he so anxious when he releases Iblis, as if he'd been waiting for the opportunity (reminder that he's capable of time travel at will).

 

So we either assume he's an idiot for not killing Sonic sooner, or not time traveling to the most convenient point in time where he'd be able to have all the chaos emeralds to summon (again the story insinuates he can do this) at the time Iblis would be set free (through his direct intervention or not), or we try and fill in the blanks with our own speculation and interpretation in an attempt to make his actions make sense.

 

 

You just presume he is because you lack proper evidence saying he is, but if evidence were introduced it could in turn make him either more stupid or even smarter than before. It works in both ways, most people generally associate this game with everything bad because they couldn't see what was truly good about the game. I however can which makes it less likely to do so.

That's like Saying Gun is stupid for killing Maria when they could've had a valid reason for doing so.

That's exactly the problem. The story doesn't give any valid evidence, when a story doesn't explain it's character's actions it leaves the audience with questions, and when the story fails to answer those questions, we're left to make our own assumptions based on the information the story does give us. So any assumptions or interpretations made about character motives or apparent rules on how certain things work aren't valid in any way since they aren't told by the narrative, and thus, are just speculation.

[Iggy]

Elise- She gets the most undeserved hate. Although people claim" that she's a mary sue, and she's the worst princess every I BOLDY disagree. She's even better than the likes of Princesses Zelda and Peach. She develops, something those 2 princesses never do. When she's first kidnapped all she does is sit there with her hands clamped, yet later in the game, she takes more responsibility for the fact that she's in charge of the kingdom. She SURRENDERS so her country doesn't get destroyed. I don't recall princess peach EVER doing that. Afterwards she attempts to kill herself to keep eggman from getting her power, which is pretty bold considering that she would give it all up, just to keep this guy from having his way. I don't recall Zelda doing that... in fact, she barely does anything when Link is fighting Ganon.

Really? So she never fired those arrows in the final battle to stun Ganondorf so that Link could attack him or ever openly apologized to Link because she felt sympathetic for his situation in Wind Waker? She never helped out with those light arrows in the final battle or surrendered against Zant's forces so that Hyrule wouldn't be destroyed or poured all her energy into Midna to save her life in Twilight Princess? She never changed her thoughts or attitude towards Link or accompanied and aided him throughout Spirit Tracks? She never put her feelings about what she thought Link deserved to have back at the end of Ocarina of Time? In the original Legend of Zelda, she knows that her forces can't withstand Ganon's, so she splits the triforce into pieces so that Link can collect them and defeat Ganon. She doesn't try and end it all because she knows that there's a better way. She's not prideful, so she doesn't care that she's going to have to let Link defeat Ganon and rescue her. That's not weakness, that's knowing that you can't always save the day without help from others.

[DBZHedgy]

Eggman doing in Generations doesn't make it acceptable in '06.

Besides, Mephiles being a moron, isn't the only problem with the story. There is a lot wrong with this game's story. People (including myself) have written about these flaws at length, over the years.

Please do point out this hypocrisy. As far as I can see Generations gets a lot of shit for its paper-thin plot.

 

That's not what I was trying to point out. I was trying to point out how hypocritical it is to judge Mephiles for doing so, when Eggman didn't. If it's acceptable in other games than why not now.

 

I still don't see anything wrong with the story other than a few minor nitpicks, everything makes sense. Moreso than newer titles too.

 

It does? I've never heard one person bash Sonic Generations for it's thin story, and if that's the case then why haven't they judged Sonic Colors for having an even THINNER story?

 

CD, Unleashed and even the Sonic Adventure games still had elements and times where Eggman was goofy in some form. I didn't say ALWAYS goofy. I said one way or another. 06 tried to make everyone serious, and it failed flat on its face so using that is pretty useless.

 

And could you cut the attitude please?

 

Really? I can understand Adventure and maybe a little for Unleashed, but CD and Adventure 2 showed absolutely no weaknesses in Eggman. In CD, as he arrives there is ominous music playing which means that the game designers wanted him to be menacing. In adventure 2 he has no weaknesses either, in this game he really shows that he's an evil genius. How do those two games show that he's goofy?

 

Oh, sure. Got a bit anxious for a second there :3

 

And you know what? That's incorrect!

Sonic Adventure's story was written by Akinori Nishiyama & Sonic Adventure 2's was by Shiro Maekawa.

06's was by Shun Nakamura, who I note, has never written a story for a Sonic game since.

 

These two Wiki pages would like to have a word with you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Adventure_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(2006_video_game)

 

Plotholes are not opinions. They are facts. Irrefutable, unarguable, rock-solid facts.

 

Mephiles not absorbing Iblis in the future when nothing tells us he couldn't do so IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

Blaze obviously being shoehorned in IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

Sonic being shoved out of the limelight while his costars focus on the IMPORTANT part of the story IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

Elise somehow managing to never cry in her entire life EVEN AFTER HER DAD DIES IS NOT a matter of opinion. It is a FACT.

 

I could go on all day.

 

Firebird already explained this, but you're implying that just because they wrote one good story that somehow means they are incapable of writing crap. That's stupid reasoning. Also, Heroes had no story, it was nothing but "Sonic and friends do things and then Metal Sonic was behind it all".

 

Still doesn't excuse the fact that they didn't explain why he can't just merge with Iblis in the future or kill Elise or anything.

 

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe G.U.N. was stupid for killing the young child who was in no way a threat to them? Especially considering how it caused a guy to enact a plan to destroy the world?

 

You are correct, plotholes are not opinions, HOWEVER, the matter in which they are judged are.

 

The Mephiles one is a character choice, not a plot hole. The story doesn't become inconsistent because Mephiles wanted to screw with people.

 

Yes, she is shoehorned in there, but I ask you this, is it really that bad? In the Colors port of DS, she is LITERALLY there, for no reason. Here is what she says, when Sonic meets her "What can I say, The Sol emerald(Implying that there is only 1 emerald since there isn't a S at the end, which is inconsitent) started glowing, and what can I say, I ended up here. How can it get worse than that? Not to mention in Colors and Generations she has NO PURPOSE IN THE STORY. What Blaze just warped to Sonic's dimension for something as trivial as a birthday party? Bull Crap, this is what I mean when I say that people are being hypocrites about this. She saves silver's future in 06, that's certainly Something. 

(I posted this in my initial post just to let you know. I posted alot more too, so read that, because frankly, I'm feeling a bit lazy )

 

How is that a plothole?

 

No, I was saying that your statement was Ironic because you said that they had "no idea" what they were doing. This means that the writers AREN'T capable of writing a good story, and Sonic ADventure 2 is a good example of this.

 

And Eggman's egotism doesn't explain why he's a moron in every game after unleashed. :3

 

It could've been but your missing what I was trying to point out. ANYTHING could look stupid with a lack of evidence.

Here's a scenario:

A kid is screaming and running around in their room because a rat had crawled out of their closet. The mother Comes in and asks, what are you screaming for? The Kid replies, Nothing. In this scenario the Mother thinks that the child has gone psycho for a moment because she isn't aware of the Rat in the room, if she was she would be just as alarmed as the child. 

 

 

We kind of are, because we're never given any clear explanation to why Mephiles couldn't achieve his goals through far simpler methods. You assume he simply wants to mess with everyone, fair enough, but his actions are incredibly vague at informing the audience of his true motives. He goes through the trouble of getting Silver to murder Sonic to get Elise to cry, yet he ends up doing just that all by himself. If he wanted to mess with everyone, then why is he so anxious when he releases Iblis, as if he'd been waiting for the opportunity (reminder that he's capable of time travel at will).

 

So we either assume he's an idiot for not killing Sonic sooner, or not time traveling to the most convenient point in time where he'd be able to have all the chaos emeralds to summon (again the story insinuates he can do this) at the time Iblis would be set free (through his direct intervention or not), or we try and fill in the blanks with our own speculation and interpretation in an attempt to make his actions make sense.

 

That's exactly the problem. The story doesn't give any valid evidence, when a story doesn't explain it's character's actions it leaves the audience with questions, and when the story fails to answer those questions, we're left to make our own assumptions based on the information the story does give us. So any assumptions or interpretations made about character motives or apparent rules on how certain things work aren't valid in any way since they aren't told by the narrative, and thus, are just speculation.

Uh, no you aren't. 

Mephiles only kills Elise because he sees that no one else who is capable can do it other than him, he wishes to succeed, but he also wants to cause havoc in the process. And I still don't see anyone complaining about eggman doing the exact same arrogant thing.

 

Exactly, alot of people take the prior example, while I take the latter. Except I actually use evidence given in the story to judge my opinions on such. Another problem with that plot is that it's too vague with it's points. They show why things are the way they are, but it's a bit challenging to understand them, mainly because the person playing the game will have to piece it together on their own, as I have. Maybe it's just different for me, but I've never had any problems understanding it because of this.

 

This is true, but instead of speculating what their reason is with story arcs that have already been explained many people just say "Screw it" and say it has a stupid plot instead of putting thought into it. 

Has anyone who hates 06 for it's gameplay even tryed to piece it together properly? I doubt that, greatly. Many people assume because the Gameplay is terrible the story is too, when it really isn't. This is however still my opinion, and probably only mine, but I'm willing to stand by it.

Really? So she never fired those arrows in the final battle to stun Ganondorf so that Link could attack him or ever openly apologized to Link because she felt sympathetic for his situation in Wind Waker? She never helped out with those light arrows in the final battle or surrendered against Zant's forces so that Hyrule wouldn't be destroyed or poured all her energy into Midna to save her life in Twilight Princess? She never changed her thoughts or attitude towards Link or accompanied and aided him throughout Spirit Tracks? She never put her feelings about what she thought Link deserved to have back at the end of Ocarina of Time?

Dang, I guess I was wrong the whole time.

 

HAHA! Nice one. I was waiting to see when someone would catch that! 

In all seriousness though, it seems a bit more... heroic... should I say, for Elise to do so since she doesn't have any power whatsoever.

Yes, Zelda has helped link, but twice? In the final battle Elise has helped Sonic by pointing out their weaknesses as well. Zelda only does this...once? In Windwaker? I'd say that THAT zelda is alright, but she still wasn't ready to kill herself so Ganon couldn't get the triforce but the game doesn't explain what happens to the Triforce if someone dies just like the flames of disaster for Elise. Hmm... Don't hear anyone complaining about that....

I didn't however say that she didn't care for link, I just said she didn't go against Ganon(or demise, or vaati, or gollum, or whatever) as much as she should.

Don't get me wrong, Zelda is one of my favorite Female Characters (in most of her appearences anyway) but she does seem a bit useless even though she bares the triforce of wisdom. And how much power she has with magic. 

 

I added that bit in there to see if anyone would point it out because it seems like almost no one read the darned thing :/

Seriously, I repeat the same things I've said in there in another post because of someone questions...

Thanks for actually reading it!

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

That's not what I was trying to point out. I was trying to point out how hypocritical it is to judge Mephiles for doing so, when Eggman didn't. If it's acceptable in other games than why not now.

 

 

Yes, let's consider two completely different characters, one of whom is an idiotic psychopath just wants to destroy time and reality altogether, while the other's a mix of comical with deadly serious who wants to control the world, not destroy it! Pffffffffffttt.

 

Give me a break. Especially considering how differently the two operate their functions.

[StaticMania]

Uh, no you aren't. 

Mephiles only kills Elise because he sees that no one else who is capable can do it other than him, he wishes to succeed, but he also wants to cause havoc in the process. And I still don't see anyone complaining about eggman doing the exact same arrogant thing.

Mephiles wants to make Elise cry by killing Sonic and therefore releasing Iblis, that way he can be united with Iblis once again and destroy time and space or whatever. Mephiles' goal is that simple, but the way he goes about achieving his goal is needlessly convoluted as he has the ability to time travel with no real limits and is able to kill anyone close to Elise with a simple energy beam through the chest. Mephiles has everything he needs to achieve his goal...but what does he do, he finds some naive dumb-boat and convinces the dumb-boat to do his job for him and while that happens he's also trying to get Shadow to join his side for absolutely NO reason, when he could be easily a be achieving his goal with a simple time travel warp to a specific time and place in order to kill Sonic in front of Elise. He didn't need anyone else other than himself, but the moment he was able to convince Silver to kill Sonic instead of doing it himself and we realize that he could've easily done it himself is what makes him lose points as a credible villain.

 

Eggman has a massive ego paired with high intelligence....those two combined are just one possible way for someone to get arrogant. Eggman likes knowing that he can get the advantage over his enemy, that type of thing can bloat someone's ego big time and make them get all arrogant about their plans and easily missing something that could easily cause him to be defeated.

 

Mephiles isn't arrogant, he's a damn moron who made a simple plan to achieve a simple goal needlessly complex and take way more time than it should have, which caused his plan to fail and get himself erased from the main time-line along with Iblis.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

HAHA! Nice one. I was waiting to see when someone would catch that! 

In all seriousness though, it seems a bit more... heroic... should I say, for Elise to do so since she doesn't have any power whatsoever.

Yes, Zelda has helped link, but twice? In the final battle Elise has helped Sonic by pointing out their weaknesses as well. Zelda only does this...once? In Windwaker? I'd say that THAT zelda is alright, but she still wasn't ready to kill herself so Ganon couldn't get the triforce but the game doesn't explain what happens to the Triforce if someone dies just like the flames of disaster for Elise. Hmm... Don't hear anyone complaining about that....

 

 

 

Buddy, if that's all you think that's all there is to Zelda's resume, you're in for a mother-lode debunking curb stomp.

[Rusty Spy]

Uh, no you aren't. 

Mephiles only kills Elise because he sees that no one else who is capable can do it other than him, he wishes to succeed, but he also wants to cause havoc in the process. And I still don't see anyone complaining about eggman doing the exact same arrogant thing.

 

Exactly, alot of people take the prior example, while I take the latter. Except I actually use evidence given in the story to judge my opinions on such. Another problem with that plot is that it's too vague with it's points. They show why things are the way they are, but it's a bit challenging to understand them, mainly because the person playing the game will have to piece it together on their own, as I have. Maybe it's just different for me, but I've never had any problems understanding it because of this.

 

This is true, but instead of speculating what their reason is with story arcs that have already been explained many people just say "Screw it" and say it has a stupid plot instead of putting thought into it. 

Has anyone who hates 06 for it's gameplay even tryed to piece it together properly? I doubt that, greatly. Many people assume because the Gameplay is terrible the story is too, when it really isn't. This is however still my opinion, and probably only mine, but I'm willing to stand by it.

 

I see. So you accept this story because you make you're own interpretations on the character's actions and motives as a means to fill in the blanks that the story leaves?

 

Hmm, I guess I can't fault you if that's your reasoning for liking the story.

 

What I CAN say though is that this doesn't make the story any better because your assumptions and interpretations aren't anymore valid than the next guys, and doesn't justify these blanks existing in the story to begin with. They are simply your own ideas that you use to explain away the flaws and oversights the story leaves.

 

I'd say that THAT zelda is alright, but she still wasn't ready to kill herself so Ganon couldn't get the triforce but the game doesn't explain what happens to the Triforce if someone dies just like the flames of disaster for Elise. Hmm... Don't hear anyone complaining about that....

If you're insinuating that the flames of disaster would die if Elise died.... then why didn't the Duke of Soleanna seal Iblis inside HIMSELF, when he was seconds away from dieing. Blaze already demonstrated that people can seal Iblis inside themselves and don't need a third party to do it for them.

 

If anything, Elise nearly killing herself is probably the dumbest thing anyone could ever do, cause the only other thing that could happen if she dies is Iblis getting released and destroying the world... Which is EXACTLY how Silver's future becomes ruined, when Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are in the future and find out that Eggman's battleship explodes, killing Elise onboard.

[Iggy]

HAHA! Nice one. I was waiting to see when someone would catch that!

In all seriousness though, it seems a bit more... heroic... should I say, for Elise to do so since she doesn't have any power whatsoever.

Yes, Zelda has helped link, but twice? In the final battle Elise has helped Sonic by pointing out their weaknesses as well. Zelda only does this...once? In Windwaker? I'd say that THAT zelda is alright, but she still wasn't ready to kill herself so Ganon couldn't get the triforce but the game doesn't explain what happens to the Triforce if someone dies just like the flames of disaster for Elise. Hmm... Don't hear anyone complaining about that....

I didn't however say that she didn't care for link, I just said she didn't go against Ganon(or demise, or vaati, or gollum, or whatever) as much as she should.

Don't get me wrong, Zelda is one of my favorite Female Characters (in most of her appearences anyway) but she does seem a bit useless even though she bares the triforce of wisdom. And how much power she has with magic.

Actually, she doesn't only help Link in Wind Waker. She also defended him with light arrows in Twilight Princess, and acted as a guide character in Spirit Tracks. Guide characters do a lot of pointing out weaknesses in enemies, so her role was quite helpful to Link in this title as well. She disgusted herself as Shiek and taught Link all the warping songs so that she could help him without risking getting caught by Ganondorf. I don't know about anyone else, but I used those songs quite a bit in that game, and I don't think referring to them as helpful would be too much of an exaggeration in the slightest. Also, if Elise had succeeded in killing herself, wouldn't she release the Iblis Trigger? I can't remember if she knew her death would release it at that point in time or not, so I can't comment much on that.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Y'know what's even more pathetic, is that whenever he's in Crisis City, Mephiles is in the same area as Iblis, yet doesn't merge with him. 

 

Hell, during the scene and Mephiles boss fight at Flame Core, Iblis is in the lava literally BESIDE Mephiles!!!

[DBZHedgy]

Yes, let's consider two completely different characters, one of whom is an idiotic psychopath just wants to destroy time and reality altogether, while the other's a mix of comical with deadly serious who wants to control the world, not destroy it! Pffffffffffttt.

 

Give me a break. Especially considering how differently the two operate their functions.

We aren't comparing their character, we're comparing how they achieve their motives.Again I would like to know how Mephiles is the stupid one when he actually SUCCEEDS(3rd time saying it) while still being unneccesarily cocky and overconfident and Eggman is the smart one for failing in every right. It makes 0 sense.

 

Mephiles wants to make Elise cry by killing Sonic and therefore releasing Iblis, that way he can be united with Iblis once again and destroy time and space or whatever. Mephiles' goal is that simple, but the way he goes about achieving his goal is needlessly convoluted as he has the ability to time travel with no real limits and is able to kill anyone close to Elise with a simple energy beam through the chest. Mephiles has everything he needs to achieve his goal...but what does he do, he finds some naive dumb-boat and convinces the dumb-boat to do his job for him and while that happens he's also trying to get Shadow to join his side for absolutely NO reason, when he could be easily a be achieving his goal with a simple time travel warp to a specific time and place in order to kill Sonic in front of Elise. He didn't need anyone else other than himself, but the moment he was able to convince Silver to kill Sonic instead of doing it himself and we realize that he could've easily done it himself is what makes him lose points as a credible villain.

 

Eggman has a massive ego paired with high intelligence....those two combined are just one possible way for someone to get arrogant. Eggman likes knowing that he can get the advantage over his enemy, that type of thing can bloat someone's ego big time and make them get all arrogant about their plans and easily missing something that could easily cause him to be defeated.

 

Mephiles isn't arrogant, he's a damn moron who made a simple plan to achieve a simple goal needlessly complex and take way more time than it should have, which caused his plan to fail and get himself erased from the main time-line along with Iblis.

You do realize that many villains take the more complicated route right? Again, he is an anarchist who craves destruction (Does anyone read?). Why wouldn't he want to cause a little chaos before he consumed time and spcae? That's like saying the joker, from batman, is stupid because he wants destruction anarchy and everything to go crazy. Yet, if he does succeed than he simply does nothing. No really, what would the Joker do if he won? N-O-T-H-I-N-G Same as Mephiles, that is why the Joker enjoys Batman being his rival, he makes things interesting before he reaches his goal. The same with Mephiles and Shadow. 

It doesn't matter that it's conveluted. What matters is that he is able to SUCCEED with his plans while still being able to screw around and such. It isn't hard at all to understand. :facepalm:

 

I still don't hear anyone replying to my statement about him being serious in every game until Sonic Colors. Especially Sonic Adventure 2. He is in NO WAY egotistic and as a result he wins. So there should be no excuse for him in newer games, yet people constantly come up with some that make no sense considering past events... 

[FireBird75]

These two Wiki pages would like to have a word with you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Adventure_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(2006_video_game)

 

 

 

The wikipedia page is misleading.

Shiro only helped on the script.but the story itself is entirely on Shun Nakamura.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

We aren't comparing their character, we're comparing how they achieve their motives.Again I would like to know how Mephiles is the stupid one when he actually SUCCEEDS(3rd time saying it) while still being unneccesarily cocky and overconfident and Eggman is the smart one for failing in every right. It makes 0 sense.

 

Because he has to stoop to stabbing Sonic in the back after all his "master plans" untimely blew up in his face,  saw him being hilariously clobbered by Omega, failing to coerce SHadow to the dark side, and then getting beaten again by Shadow. 

 

And yet, he could have skipped it all by just time-traveling to Iblis, killing Elise, torturing Elise into crying, or hell, use some goddamn onions. But nope, he tries doing it the "creative way" and fails miserably at doing it from all angles.

 

Come to think of it, if it weren't for Mephiles himself, Silver probably wouldn't have even gotten the idea to revive Sonic in motion, let alone even be there to help turn things around. So yeah, Mephiles pretty much left the door open for Solaris' demise.

 

I demand competency out of a villain you demand that I take seriously.

[Scar]

That's not what I was trying to point out. I was trying to point out how hypocritical it is to judge Mephiles for doing so, when Eggman didn't. If it's acceptable in other games than why not now.

Where is the hypocrisy? WHERE IS IT? Don't make me go all Christian Bale here. You're claiming we're being hypocritical, but I don't see it. Nobody has ever said its acceptable for Eggman to do stupid things, just cause its in newer games. You're arguing in circles; saying stuff that doesn't really mean anything, just pointless musings in an attempt to shift criticism away from 06 and onto us.

 

I still don't see anything wrong with the story other than a few minor nitpicks, everything makes sense. Moreso than newer titles too.

 

No. Just no.

"Minor nitpicks".....nope. 

"Makes more sense than newer titles too"....Just nope.

 

It does? I've never heard one person bash Sonic Generations for it's thin story, and if that's the case then why haven't they judged Sonic Colors for having an even THINNER story?

You're new here. You haven't heard anyone do very much of anything, given that you've spent the entirety of your time here thus far, pointlessly defending '06, in this topic.

Also, I find it remarkable that you somehow believe that Colours has a thinner plot than Generations.

I just don't know how you could think that....unless of course you somehow, naively believe that Generations simply having time-travel in it, gives it a leg-up on Colours.

[Rusty Spy]

Again, he is an anarchist who craves destruction (Does anyone read?). Why wouldn't he want to cause a little chaos before he consumed time and spcae? That's like saying the joker, from batman, is stupid because he wants destruction anarchy and everything to go crazy. Yet, if he does succeed than he simply does nothing. No really, what would the Joker do if he won? N-O-T-H-I-N-G Same as Mephiles, that is why the Joker enjoys Batman being his rival, he makes things interesting before he reaches his goal. The same with Mephiles and Shadow. 

It doesn't matter that it's conveluted. What matters is that he is able to SUCCEED with his plans while still being able to screw around and such. It isn't hard at all to understand. :facepalm:

Except that is your own interpretation of the character.

 

The Joker is a crazy human being. A psychotic man who doesn't really have an end goal. His excuse for simply screwing around with his enemies and hatching complex and roundabout plots are justified because the stories tell us he simply enjoys breaking people down and causing havoc, the audience understands that part of his character.

 

Who is Mephilis? All the story tells us about him is that he's supposed to embody the intelligent side of Solaris, he can time travel, and that he ultimately wanted to merge with Iblis and become Solaris again so he can devour all of time and space.

 

It is a good question; Why WOULD a nigh-omnipotent creature (speaking as the sentience of the sun-god Solaris), who transcends time itself bother screwing around and being roundabout with these characters who should be nothing more than specks who's mere existence is but a blip compared to the sheer scope of his existence? All we see him do to is tell Silver what to do, and try to sway Shadow to his side, (a side which will end up not mattering to either of them because Solaris would simply devour all of time).

[DBZHedgy]

I see. So you accept this story because you make you're own interpretations on the character's actions and motives as a means to fill in the blanks that the story leaves?

 

Hmm, I guess I can't fault you if that's your reasoning for liking the story.

 

What I CAN say though is that this doesn't make the story any better because your assumptions and interpretations aren't anymore valid than the next guys, and doesn't justify these blanks existing in the story to begin with. They are simply your own ideas that you use to explain away the flaws and oversights the story leaves.

 

If you're insinuating that the flames of disaster would die if Elise died.... then why didn't the Duke of Soleanna seal Iblis inside HIMSELF, when he was seconds away from dieing. Blaze already demonstrated that people can seal Iblis inside themselves and don't need a third party to do it for them.

 

If anything, Elise nearly killing herself is probably the dumbest thing anyone could ever do, cause the only other thing that could happen if she dies is Iblis getting released and destroying the world... Which is EXACTLY how Silver's future becomes ruined, when Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are in the future and find out that Eggman's battleship explodes, killing Elise onboard.

No I don't make my own interpretations, I concur them being referring to earlier or later parts of the game. It's all justified. But if you think about it people are declining this game's story because of how THEY fill in the blanks, sometimes none at all. But what 

I don't understand is how people can't except this game for plot holes, yet later games ENTIRELY IGNORE parts of the plot that need to be explained. Every game written by Pontac and Graff have these problems (Colors, Generations, and Lost World) yet it's A-OK to everyone else. What a load..

(As as much as I say it people CONTINUE to ignore my statements -__-

 

My point exactly. Anyone who judges Sonic 06's story is based on THEIR assumptions and interpretations. Either way the plot makes sense. It almost seems like it's a puzzle and some people are just to lazy to put it together. All the plot holes except maybe 2 can be thoroughly exaplined and as such isn't considered a plot hole. The only 2 I can think of with Sonic 06's complex story telling is the Blue Chaos Emerald, and... I know there's another one, but I can't think of it... That's a pretty good job since I can pick out plotholes in Sonic Colors' story even though it has such a thin storyline.

 

...Because he was dieing. Unless you meant it the other way around and had a typo.

If that is the case, Then I'm sure that the Duke doesn't know EVERYTHING and he assumed that sealing Iblis inside Elise would keep it from awakenning even if she died. I mean Dr. Eggman knew that the ark was made by his grandfather but he didn't know that Gerald would have something instore once all of the emeralds were collected.

 

No, she never knew at all that killing herself would cause it to be released. 

 

Buddy, if that's all you think that's all there is to Zelda's resume, you're in for a mother-lode debunking curb stomp.

 

Keep in mind that almost every Zelda is part of a different timeline and there is rarely a case in which 2 games feature the same zelda. So overall she doesn't do as much as she should have.

 

Actually, she doesn't only help Link in Wind Waker. She also defended him with light arrows in Twilight Princess, and acted as a guide character in Spirit Tracks. Guide characters do a lot of pointing out weaknesses in enemies, so her role was quite helpful to Link in this title as well. She disgusted herself as Shiek and taught Link all the warping songs so that she could help him without risking getting caught by Ganondorf. I don't know about anyone else, but I used those songs quite a bit in that game, and I don't think referring to them as helpful would be too much of an exaggeration in the slightest. Also, if Elise had succeeded in killing herself, wouldn't she release the Iblis Trigger? I can't remember if she knew her death would release it at that point in time or not, so I can't comment much on that.

 

I said she helps him in battle twice. Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, every other case she either sits there for a presumably long amount of time waiting for a "barrier" of some sort to go down before she could do anything. Either that or she would just sit there unconscious, captivated, or trapped in another room. Pretty useless for someone who is very prominent in the abilities of Magic.

Yea, Spirit tracks Zelda was pretty helpful wasn't she? Especially as a Phantom Knight. (If that's what it was called...) 

As Shiek I must say she was a bit useless... although the songs were helpful she didn't really do anything besides that. I mean... what did she do other than teach link those songs? Where did she go? Back to a hut to read a magazine? There's a plothole that no one seems to mention. Another thing that was a bit unwise for the seventh sage to do was both reveal herself as ganondorf, she could've just told link that she was zelda. I doubt link is a stubborn person. That in turn caused Ganondorf to find her which would cause the world to be screwed over if link had died. But y'know No big deal, everyone and their grandmother can have plotholes, but not 06, Oh No...

She didn't know that her death would cause the releasing of Iblis. I mean how could she? If she's dead than she's unconsious and I'd like to think that unconscious

 

Y'know what's even more pathetic, is that whenever he's in Crisis City, Mephiles is in the same area as Iblis, yet doesn't merge with him. 

 

Hell, during the scene and Mephiles boss fight at Flame Core, Iblis is in the lava literally BESIDE Mephiles!!!

I've already said why that wasn't stupid. I've said it several times as a matter of fact...

 people know what their bodies or what the world is doing.

[Nepenthe]

I don't understand is how people can't except this game for plot holes, yet later games ENTIRELY IGNORE parts of the plot that need to be explained. Every game written by Pontac and Graff have these problems (Colors, Generations, and Lost World) yet it's A-OK to everyone else. What a load..

 

You keep assuming members here are biased by accusing them of never criticizing the plots of Colors, Generations, or Lost World for similar gaffes in Sonic 06. This is wrong when you've neither bothered to look at any topics on these games' stories (at which point you would see most people think they're shit too), nor have you even went through people's posting history to corroborate this assumption. Yet you point fingers anyway.

 

You are judging members here for something you've not even proven they've done in an attempt to supposedly discredit their arguments. This is an awful debate tactic and it makes watching this entire thing unfold more painful than it needs to be.

[Rusty Spy]

But if you think about it people are declining this game's story because of how THEY fill in the blanks, sometimes none at all.

 Because the story fails to properly explain itself, leaving people frustrated at the plot when characters act contrary to what they want to achieve.

 

No I don't make my own interpretations, I concur them being referring to earlier or later parts of the game. It's all justified.

You take parts of the story and try to assume and interpret things in a way that makes the story make sense.

 

 

But what I don't understand is how people can't except this game for plot holes, yet later games ENTIRELY IGNORE parts of the plot that need to be explained. Every game written by Pontac and Graff have these problems (Colors, Generations, and Lost World) yet it's A-OK to everyone else. What a load..

No story is justified in being poorly written, and poorly delivered. Period.

 

My point exactly. Anyone who judges Sonic 06's story is based on THEIR assumptions and interpretations. Either way the plot makes sense. It almost seems like it's a puzzle and some people are just to lazy to put it together.

 

So you're saying that no one else 'gets' the game story besides you? That you're the only one who understands the story and why it 'makes sense' and that everyone else is just in denial?

 

All the plot holes except maybe 2 can be thoroughly exaplined and as such isn't considered a plot hole.

By filling in the blanks with your own assumptions and interpretations.

 

If that is the case, Then I'm sure that the Duke doesn't know EVERYTHING and he assumed that sealing Iblis inside Elise would keep it from awakenning even if she died. I mean Dr. Eggman knew that the ark was made by his grandfather but he didn't know that Gerald would have something instore once all of the emeralds were collected.

 

The story never tells us that, you are filling in the blanks with your own assumptions and interpretations.

 

No, she never knew at all that killing herself would cause it to be released.

The story never tells us that, you are filling in the blanks with your own assumptions and interpretations.

 

Your logic is starting to fall apart.

[DBZHedgy]

The wikipedia page is misleading.

Shiro only helped on the script.but the story itself is entirely on Shun Nakamura.

 

Where did you get that information from?

 

 

Because he has to stoop to stabbing Sonic in the back after all his "master plans" untimely blew up in his face,  saw him being hilariously clobbered by Omega, failing to coerce SHadow to the dark side, and then getting beaten again by Shadow. 

 

And yet, he could have skipped it all by just time-traveling to Iblis, killing Elise, torturing Elise into crying, or hell, use some goddamn onions. But nope, he tries doing it the "creative way" and fails miserably at doing it from all angles.

 

Come to think of it, if it weren't for Mephiles himself, Silver probably wouldn't have even gotten the idea to revive Sonic in motion, let alone even be there to help turn things around. So yeah, Mephiles pretty much left the door open for Solaris' demise.

 

I demand competency out of a villain you demand that I take seriously.

They weren't "master plans" they were more like Sidequests. Either way all of them relate to him getting the chaos emeralds.

Does that really count as Failing? No it doesn't. The definition for Fail means 

1. be unsuccessful in achieving one's goal.

    

   or

   •  

      

      

      

      

      

        
   •  

      
   •  
2. neglect to do something.

    

By the looks of it, he still got all of the emeralds, and he still fused with Iblis 2/3 ain't bad.

 

Do you really know how many times I've explained that this wasn't stupid? Does anyone even bother to read? Repeating the same thing over and over is a bit tiring. TT_TT;

 

When does the game even imply this? I don't recall Mephiles telling him anything related to the chaos emeralds much less how to revive Sonic if he died.

 

I don't demand anything, I simply want to know why everyone hates him when he clearly isn't that bad. Again, Mephiles has SUCCEEDED, while still being arrogant and anarchistic. Something Eggman has Never done. The only time Eggman has was when he was 100% serious. Sonic CD and Sonic Adventure 2 are prime examples.

And BTW the definition for  Competency means

the ability to do something successfully or efficiently. Which is wrong just like how you claim that he has faile

 

Where is the hypocrisy? WHERE IS IT? Don't make me go all Christian Bale here. You're claiming we're being hypocritical, but I don't see it. Nobody has ever said its acceptable for Eggman to do stupid things, just cause its in newer games. You're arguing in circles; saying stuff that doesn't really mean anything, just pointless musings in an attempt to shift criticism away from 06 and onto us.

 

 

No. Just no.

"Minor nitpicks".....nope. 

"Makes more sense than newer titles too"....Just nope.

 

You're new here. You haven't heard anyone do very much of anything, given that you've spent the entirety of your time here thus far, pointlessly defending '06, in this topic.

Also, I find it remarkable that you somehow believe that Colours has a thinner plot than Generations.

I just don't know how you could think that....unless of course you somehow, naively believe that Generations simply having time-travel in it, gives it a leg-up on Colours.

Do you know what hypocrisy is? I've explained SEVERAL times how it was hypocricy.

Actually I'm pretty much just Answering the questions of many who have took the time to question my opinion. Even if I am arguing in circles (which I'm not) than that just goes to show that theforum is doing it's job, holding up a discussion. The only reason it isn't going anywhere is because people constently neglect allogations that I expect them to respond to. Like the SA2 Eggman and his seriousness, stuff like that(Read ealier posts for more info on it, because it's tiring repeating myself...). I rarely get an answer for statements like that which are meant to continue the conversation, or rather further implies how much hypocrisy the judgement of this game is based on. 

And there have been several posts in which people have said that he was clownish which excuses it. I however disagree. Since you(as far as I know) haven't went on to say that the cases in which he does act this way, than I have valid reasons for stating that it is hypocrisy.

 

Yes, there are only a few minor nitpicks that I find allowable considering the entire Sonic universe all of it's game and it's gameplay choices styles and story. Why don't you explain why it's nope instead of just saying that. The POINT of forums is for discussions. If we all just said No or Yes to every discussion based question than the posts would go absolutely no where.

Yes

 

Your being a bit presumptious there pal. Just because My ACCOUNT is new, it doesn't mean that I myself is new to the forum. I've been here on several occasions and I've rarely found any posts or replys to a post which said of Any future games being bad for their story. the only time I've seen anything along those lines was once and it was in the "Strange things in Sonic Games" Topic, it pretty much said how inconsistent the game was with it's locations and how much is explained and then asked "Sonic Generations' story isn't that good is it? I you can reek no further reply. 

 

What do you mean? I can sum up the entire game in 3 words.

Sonic saves Aliens. NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS. No sharp turns no story momentum. nothing. Just that. That's all the story amounts to. How is that more complicated than Sonic Generations. Please tell me because you've got me curious. 

 

And there isn't any need for you to call me Naive. I thought people were Mature here, I've refrained from insulting other people because of their opinions and so should you, especially since I am most certainly NOT naive.

 

 

Except that is your own interpretation of the character.

 

The Joker is a crazy human being. A psychotic man who doesn't really have an end goal. His excuse for simply screwing around with his enemies and hatching complex and roundabout plots are justified because the stories tell us he simply enjoys breaking people down and causing havoc, the audience understands that part of his character.

 

Who is Mephilis? All the story tells us about him is that he's supposed to embody the intelligent side of Solaris, he can time travel, and that he ultimately wanted to merge with Iblis and become Solaris again so he can devour all of time and space.

 

It is a good question; Why WOULD a nigh-omnipotent creature (speaking as the sentience of the sun-god Solaris), who transcends time itself bother screwing around and being roundabout with these characters who should be nothing more than specks who's mere existence is but a blip compared to the sheer scope of his existence? All we see him do to is tell Silver what to do, and try to sway Shadow to his side, (a side which will end up not mattering to either of them because Solaris would simply devour all of time).

No it isn't this is how the game sets up the story to present the character. Everything I've said so far has been backed up by the game's lines and story. I'm not making anything up at all.

 

*Ok, let me ask you this. If you were an evil villain about to consume time and space as you know it, you would rather come to your goal FASTER just so you could achieve it and for that purpose alone? Because if you consume Time and Space, what would be there? NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. Of course Mephiles would want to have some fun before he fused with Iblis, it would only make sense. I'm sure people who are familiar with the term YOLO know what I'm talking about.

 

Yes, they don't go over everything because he's supposed to be mysterious, he's supposed to be unpredictable. Going though all of that makes him all the more unpredictable. The game rarely goes over who his is because of this.

For the last post see the paragraph with an asterisk.

[StaticMania]

It doesn't matter that it's conveluted. What matters is that he is able to SUCCEED with his plans while still being able to screw around and such. It isn't hard at all to understand. :facepalm:

You do realize that many villains take the more complicated route right? Again, he is an anarchist who craves destruction (Does anyone read?). Why wouldn't he want to cause a little chaos before he consumed time and spcae? That's like saying the joker, from batman, is stupid because he wants destruction anarchy and everything to go crazy. Yet, if he does succeed than he simply does nothing. No really, what would the Joker do if he won? N-O-T-H-I-N-G Same as Mephiles, that is why the Joker enjoys Batman being his rival, he makes things interesting before he reaches his goal. The same with Mephiles and Shadow. 

A villain taking the complicated way out is only acceptable if there is no other real way they can achieve their goal...being blunt isn't always the safest way for villains and that can also severely back-fire very easily than making a more complex yet reliable plan. Mephiles literally has no excuse...and he isn't causing chaos, he literally just told Silver to kill Sonic, while he failed constantly at trying to get Shadow to join his side and getting his ass kicked afterwards.

 

If Mephiles actually wanted to cause havoc and chaos as he made progression to get what he wants, you'd think that he would have more control on the events happening in the story, he has almost no control on what happens in the story...he's the reason things happen, but he's not the reason things play out the way they do...otherwise everything would end up in his favor with no way of back-fire...but that doesn't happen, he gets what he wants but it has nothing to do with what he caused to happen through out the game at that point. Him causing chaos just for kicks is never even something that the story implies...not once throughout the whole game.

[Indigo Rush]

To this day I still don't know why the writers thought there would be no problems with Princess Elise having a hold of that one Chaos Emerald for 10 years, thus nullifying any and every game that ever used all 7 prior to '06.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

To this day I still don't know why the writers thought there would be no problems with Princess Elise having a hold of that one Chaos Emerald for 10 years, thus nullifying any and every game that ever used all 7 prior to '06.

Apparently, before negative reception came crashing down on the game, 06 was set to reboot the Sonic universe.

Of course the stupidity of the plothole is only strengthened since Generations acknowledges 06 as canon.

[Rusty Spy]

No it isn't this is how the game sets up the story to present the character. Everything I've said so far has been backed up by the game's lines and story. I'm not making anything up at all.

Nowhere in the game does it imply that Mephilis is purposely taking convoluted and roundabout steps towards reuniting with Solaris so he can screw with the heroes.

 

Nowhere does it imply that the Duke of Solaris didn't know that Iblis would die with whatever host was in it.

 

Nowhere does it imply Elise would know of what would happen if she died, in fact, her willingly letting herself die implies that she DOESN'T know what would happen to Iblis.

 

These are all things you ASSUME about the characters. Sure, it'd make sense if these things were explained in the story, but they aren't, so whether or not it's true or not is anyone's guess.

 

*Ok, let me ask you this. If you were an evil villain about to consume time and space as you know it, you would rather come to your goal FASTER just so you could achieve it and for that purpose alone? Because if you consume Time and Space, what would be there? NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. Of course Mephiles would want to have some fun before he fused with Iblis, it would only make sense. I'm sure people who are familiar with the term YOLO know what I'm talking about.

If I were about to consume time and space, I'd probably conjure up lots of ice cream and tacos. Because I'm not Mephilies, therefore, what I would've done doesn't matter in what Mephilies did. He isn't one of those 'what would YOU have done' characters, he's a villain that's supposed to create conflict in the story and create tension for the heroes.

 

Yes, they don't go over everything because he's supposed to be mysterious, he's supposed to be unpredictable. Going though all of that makes him all the more unpredictable. The game rarely goes over who his is because of this.

Characters can be mysterious and ambiguous, but when the character starts making actions that run contrary to what they're trying to achieve, then it just makes them look stupid. Also, the point of a mysterious character is to intrigue the audience and makes them want to find out more about them.

 

Shadow in SA2 was played up as a mysterious character. We know very little about him or his backstory at first, which grabs the viewers attention. It makes them want to find out more about him and what his motives are, and as the plot unfolds we're revealed more about who him and his ultimate plans.

 

Same with Mephilies. They introduce him as some weird creature that looks just like Shadow and seems to know him somehow, and can manipulate time. This also makes viewers want to follow the story and find out more. Thus over the course of the plot we piece together more information about him, and find out that he's the other half of Solaris and he wants to merge with Iblis so he can destroy everything. That's all fine and dandy, but the problem is that once we realize his motives and reevaluate the steps he took to achieving his goal, we begin to realize that there were far simpler ways of doing it, and when the plot fails to explain why these simpler options were never considered, or weren't possible, it makes his actions look needlessly complex, which undermines his credibility as a villain.

 

 

To this day I still don't know why the writers thought there would be no problems with Princess Elise having a hold of that one Chaos Emerald for 10 years, thus nullifying any and every game that ever used all 7 prior to '06.

Actually, the chaos emerald that Elise had was an emerald Silver gave her back when he and Shadow time traveled back to the past. It was an emerald that Silver took from the present and left in the past, effectively causing 8 chaos emeralds to exist. 7 scattered across the world, and 1 duplicate from the future that Elise holds onto for 10 years, who then gives it to Sonic, who surrenders it to Eggman, which somehow ends up in Silvers hands, who travels back in time with Shadow and leaves it with Elise.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Rusty Spy