Sonic Adventure 2 v.s. Sonic Heroes - Round 4: Hype/Marketing

[Kamakai]

Er...wha?

 

I may have voted in SA2's favor for this current round, but I NEVER had that issue with Heroes. Is that dependent on the version you play or something?

 

 

Me neither. I've played the PS2 version through as well. I thought this was MORE apparent in SA2.

"Faker? I think you're the fake hedgehog around here. You're comparing yourself to me? Ha! You're not even good enough to be my fa-

 

" I'll make you eat those words!"

 

But yeah. While SA2's script isn't exactly Oscar material, it wasn't as ear-piercingly bad as "The REAL SUPERPOWER OF TEAMWORK!" Also, SA2's voice acting is a lot better than Heroes' IMO.

...Probably because SA2 doesn't have Cream.

 

 

So SA2 wins this round for me.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Psychic Soldier

[Dark Qiviut]

Sonic Adventure 2, both subjectively AND objectively.

 

There's no question that both games suffer from bad writing; in Sonic Adventure 2's case, even worse production with so many English lines overlapping each other and abruptly cutting off (i.e., Shadow: "No—doubt!"). However, Sonic Adventure 2 at least attempted to write dialogue and actually had some very good lines. There was a hell of a lot of heart in the dialogue, and the majority of the lines fit the characters to a tee. Gerald Robotnik's diary detailing his pain, despair, and insanity felt incredibly real and made the apocalyptic nature of the ARK's descent colder.

 

Sonic Heroes's writing, on the other hand, didn't have ANY good quality writing; when it tried, it clogged the toilet. Heroes tried to encompass a wider audience with much simpler writing, but executed it horribly. The writing is incredibly simplistic to the point of stereotypical, flat, and even out of character, Amy, Shadow, and Sonic being huge victims of it. Furthermore, like what Diogenes said above, the characters felt like they didn't care one bit about the issue, and simple common sense was nonexistent.

[Nepenthe]

SA2 has the huge advantage of not managing to shit all over its own inherent themes with contradictory storytelling. Yes, let's have the teams fight each other for no discernible reason in a game that lays on a positive teamwork message with all the subtlety of a Dora the Explorer episode. It annoys me like you wouldn't believe for such a big oversight to have been missed. That's stuff you iron out in the very, very beginning of writing a story, at least if you give a damn. I also don't really like what Heroes did to Metal Sonic; it's the start of his coming into of ridiculous, unnecessary superpowers that undermine the entire reason his rivalry with Sonic is so compelling in the first place, that being that they compete on perfectly equal terms. That's really the whole issue with Heroes and why I can't bother to give what little storytelling it has the time of day: When it is telling a story, it undermines itself at its most critical moments. SA2 is vastly superior.

[Kuzu]

Since my original post was deleted( I wonder by who :V), I shall give an actual response.

 

 

SA2's writing isn't perfect by any means. The dialogue is obviously a direct translation from the Japanese at times, leading to engrishy phrases("Is that what Chaos Control is?) and inconsistency within the writing(Shadow finds out that Rouge the Bat, is actually Rouge the bat, LE GASP). Despite those flaws however, SA2 was the last game that attempted to to give the characters some direction and character. Everyone has a reason for their actions, which makes the conflicts between them seem much more natural. The plot is better structured as actions are constantly being taken(Eggman breaks into Prison Island to free Shadow, Shadow gets Sonic arrested, Eggman blows up Prison Island and makes off with three emeralds, etc. etc.) which keeps it interesting from start to finish. All in all despite its fault SA2 has probably one of the better plots in the series for how well structured it is.

 

 

Heroes on the other hand is just a horrible mess of writing. This is the point when the characters lose all sense of themselves and just become walking archetypes with no thought put into their actions(Knuckles starts palling with Sonic, Amy begins her stalker phase, Rouge becomes an accessory to Shadow) There are no explanations for the team battles, they just happen because the game probably needed to fill its boss fight quota. Plot points are never brought up or just ignored(why didn't Shadow go super in the final fight again?). That said, I did find some of the dialogue quite charming particularly from the Chaotix, and it was nice to see Team Dark grow closer as a group despite only working out of common interest at first. I liked how Knuckles was teasing Tails, Amy taking charge of her team. Had this game built more on the team dynamics I could have looked over everything else. But alas.

 

 

Yea, SA2 by a long mile.

[Soniman]

(why didn't Shadow go super in the final fight again?)

 

Uhh...because amnesia?

[WarioBone]

Both are pretty awful, but I'll have to give this one to Adventure 2, mostly since Heroes tried WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too hard.

[Stritix]

Heroes tried WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too hard.

 

Too hard? I'd say Sonic Heroes didn't try at all. The writing/dialogue is extremely lazy.

[WarioBone]

Too hard? I'd say Sonic Heroes didn't try at all. The writing/dialogue is extremely lazy.

 

How can you possibly say that lines like "It'll be a date to die for!" and "TRUE SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK!" and "BURN TO DEAAAAAAAATH" aren't trying too hard?  Sonic Heroes was trying to be witty, wholesome, and edgy all at the same time.

[Dandp]

Heroes doesn't really have much of a story to convey, but the parts where it tries it just falls flat. The writing is Cheesy and silly (Which I like), but I liked SA2's story driven gameplay.

 

That being said, SA2 has crappy writing too, with its plot holes and such, so it is a bit of a close call.

 

Personally, I vote SA2. Heroes has too many silly moments of just bad writing, even though I prefer the light-hearted story. You never got "THE REAL SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK" in SA2. Mabye the game would've been actually fun if it did though... hmmmm....

Edited April 9, 2013 by Dandp

[Dr. Homem]

Adventure 2 had a decent plot. The whole Ark thing was pretty nice, and I liked how they handled some of the characterizations. That being said, the presentation was horrible. Going through the story felt like watching a bunch of scenes incoherently thrown around.

 

That being said, I'll still put it over Heroes because of how much I despised the Metal Sonic betraying Eggman plotline. I would never imagine Metal betraying Eggman. Ever. Seeing that in Heroes was a completely random and stupid move. Eggman is betrayed by a Badnik made to serve him, made powerless and in a position where he's not only lost his position as antagonist, but also reduced to a meaningless background character. That I can't stand. And that's not even counting the senseless team fights and near lack of reason for all the events to happen.

 

Basically, SA2 wins this round... but only just.

 

 

 

... Oh, dialogue? We've got "I'm the coolest!" against "Because we're Sonic Heroes!". No winner on that.

[Milo]

Both are pretty awful, but I'll have to give this one to Adventure 2, mostly since Heroes tried WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too hard.

 

 

Too hard? I'd say Sonic Heroes didn't try at all. The writing/dialogue is extremely lazy.

 

 

How can you possibly say that lines like "It'll be a date to die for!" and "TRUE SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK!" and "BURN TO DEAAAAAAAATH" aren't trying too hard?  Sonic Heroes was trying to be witty, wholesome, and edgy all at the same time.

 

Heroes's writing/dialogue tried too hard to be "hip" and didn't even try at all being good.

 

Think of it as the writers given approximately one hour to write Heroes's dialogue. The writers decide to use 50 minutes of their time to brainstorm and write down what they thought was "totally radical" dialouge Americans would be speaking back in the early 2000s (trying too hard) and then pretty much half-assing their way through every other important element of writing dialogue/a story during the last 10 minutes (didn't try at all).

 

Have to echo everyone else's opinion that SA2 beats out Heroes in the writing/dialogue department by a country mile.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Gabe

[Kuzu]

Uhh...because amnesia?

 

Didn't stop him from forgetting his name or powers

[WarioBone]

Didn't stop him from forgetting his name or powers

 

He didn't go super because Shadow wasn't the bestest ever Sonic character until the NEXT game, silly!

Edited April 9, 2013 by 100% Uncut Wario

[-blank-]

They both have their flaws. But I'm going to have to give this round to Sonic Adventure 2. That game had a fairly decent plot, even if it didn't really interest me all that much. The characters at least had some reasons for doing what they were doing. The dialogue was cheesy, but what Sonic game doesn't have cheesy dialogue? The script still had some fairly decent lines. Heroes on the other hand is an example of trying too hard. The 'real super power of team work'? Really, SEGA? And why are the characters fighting each other for no freaking reason at all? I mean, come on!

 

 

Winner: Sonic Adventure 2

[Motobug]

I seriously don't think ANYONE has voted for Heroes yet.

 

I'm not going to either, as Sonic Heroes had probably the laziest writing of the 3D Sonic games. SA2 actually tried to make a compelling story that connected all of the story lines. Even though there was the occasional cut-off in the dialogue sometimes (Knuckles you're gonna cra-AAAAAAAAAAAAAA), it certainly wasn't bad.

Heroes was downright bad, close to being the worst in the series. The lines and story were downright confusing at times (Amy tries to destroy Sonic so...they can get married?), and overall, it's just bad.

Winner-SA2

Edited April 10, 2013 by Speedster

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Probably the shitty PS2 port.

 

I played the PS2 version of the game many times, and I can't remember any cut offs.

[Aquaslash]

First two posts covered everything I could say for SA2 in this one.  Heroes did have some great one-liners, but SA2 was an all around better story on the merits that you DIDN'T have to read between the lines to get the whole thing.

 

...

 

Well.. up until the end anyway.  LAST Episode in SA2 is complete and utter lameness, and did I mention how much I really hate the Final Hazard?

[Soniman]

So I received a PM from Felix telling me it was okay for me to continue the topic while he's away, so lets keep this gravy train rolling.

 

 

So since Felix was on the general topic of plot and story I guess ill keep it going in that direction. I guess this will be kind of difficult since I can't edit the topic title but whatever.

 

Round 2 - Story

 

 

 

 

Sonic Adventure 2 starts off with Eggman infiltrating a base where he find his Grandfather's greatest creation, Shadow the Hedgehog, and with him he can enact his evil plans for world domination. Skip forward a bit and we find Sonic in military custody after being accused of stealing a Chaos Emerald, and after a heated escape he confronts Shadow the Hedgehog, who is the self proclaimed ultimate life form. Elsewhere Knuckles had his Master Emerald stolen by an expert Thief and Government Agent called Rouge the Bat and after tracking it down and almost getting it stolen by Eggman, Knuckles opts to break the Emerald into pieces and re-construct it himself. That's the base of the plot, Sonic's is framed, Eggman, is up to no good Knuckles has to find the Emeralds once again, Rouge wants to get her hands on the ME and the Chaos Emearlds, and Tails assists Sonic and even makes most of the game plans.

 

 

 

Sonic Heroes has something I wouldn't really call a "plot" or "story", more like an excuse, that excuse goes like this. 6 months after the events of Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic takes a tour of the world. While touring he gets visited by Tails and Knuckles who have discovered a letter from Eggman who claimed that he would destroy the world in 3 days, so it's up to Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to stop Eggman and his dastardly deeds! Elsewhere, Rouge infiltrates a secret based of Eggman, it is there that she find the long lost Shadow, but unknown to either of them E-123 Omega emerges from the shadows and opens fire on the revived Shadow, a fight ensues. Eventually Rouge puts an end to the fighting and suggest them forming a team and go searching for Eggman together to get revenge, treasure, and answers. On a sunny shore Amy reads a newspaper claiming that Sonic has kidnapped Froggy and Chocola (a plot point where Sonic is framed for a crime he didn't commit!? How original!) which Cream and Big are saddened by, to find the answers Amy suggest they all go after Sonic which they promptly do. And finally we have Vector, Espio, and Charmy chilling in their detective agency when they get a call from a unknown client who claims that needs their services and that he can pay handsomely. Not one to turn down cash, Vector immediately seizes the chance and takes Espio and Charmy along for the ride. Throughout all of these stories a mysterious figure is pulling the strings so he can bring them together, steal their data, and destroy them. Each of the stories are fairly secluded from one another despite the occasional team confrontation.

 

 

---

 

 

is this even a competition? SA2 wins no questions asked. SA2 wins because it has focus, it has a consistent plot that actually goes somewhere, it was actually thought out, it has twist and turns and it has a three act structure. Characters act in a believable manner and are fairly competent and it does a decent job of giving the mythos of Sonic a bit of backstory like with Eggman's lineage. The final story is fairly well done, with a somewhat believable outcome. Sonic Heroes entire plot could be written on a napkin, all the plot lines for the teams are basically excuses to go after Eggman. The only shades this game shows of any structure is Metal Sonic's foreshadowing, Shadow's Android clone plotline, and Team Chaotix finding out the identity of their client. And what became of these? Metal Sonic became a junk dragon and was put in his place fairly quickly, the Shadow Android plotline would continue into Shadow where it would unceremoniously be dropped, and the client's identify was Eggman liked everyone expected, what a piece of poop. I see what Sonic Team wanted to do here, make a relatively simple story akin to the Genesis games but what they did was make it simple but deiced at the last minute to introduce a lot of plot lines like Metal Sonic's betrayal and Shadow's return and true identity that just make the story a jumbled mess of ideals conflicting with one another.

 

So yeah SA2 wins. God dammit.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Soniman

[Rusty Spy]

Sonic Heroes has a story in the same way Hillery Duff has a career.

[Chaos Incarnate]

Not even debatable. Better Voice acting ( no nasal tails), expanding on Eggman's background, actually putting effort into a new character's background, and stakes that actually felt high cement adventure 2 as a better plot overall than heroes. Heroes?  Stop Eggman for the millionth fucking time! Wait, it was Metal Sonic the whole time! What a twist! Adventure 2? Save the world from a space station that could fire on the earth or crash into it at any second! Who's this new hedgehog? Whose side is Rogue on? Eggman's grandfather and Cousin? Adventure 2 wins, without a doubt.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Knightofthewind417

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Er...yeah, SA2.

 

SA2 had more focus, use, and purpose with it's characters, while Heroes just throws them into the plot and expect them to reach the end. Heroes had shallow twists to it, with Metal Sonic being the main surprise, while SA2 had a number of twists that you didn't see coming.

 

SA2 was a lot more careful as well, as I've seen far too many people on this forum alone saying that the Biolizard, for example, came out of nowhere and failing to realize that it was a Chekhov's Gun that was meant to foreshadow that it was going to be important somehow without being too important at the time it was shown. Heroes had Shadow clones, but it left those completely dangling until close to the end of ShTH when you get to the Eggman endings.

 

All in all, SA2 was an attempt at darkness done right compared to ShTH and Sonic 06; Heroes was lighthearted gone wrong when compared to Colors and Generations (despite their problems).

 

So ya, this round goes to SA2. Story tends to suck when you make a spaghetti plot out of it like Heroes.

[Crash]

I'll go with SA2. It's consistent and didn't bore me on my first play through. It's surprising me as to how much I like SA2 now that this topic has started.

[-blank-]

As much as SA2's story does tend to bore me on occasion, I'll have to go with it over Heroes.

 

The characters had actual purposes in the story and motivations for their actions. Sonic for instance wants to clear his name and repair his reputation - a reputation that Shadow tainted. While Shadow on the other hand is driven by revenge that came from seeing the one person he truly cared about murdered before his eyes. Knuckles doesn't just tag along, he's trying to find the Master Emerald shards. Eggman is trying to take over the world to satiate his ego. In Heroes on the other hand, while some of the characters do have some purpose in the story, it is not as well done. Team Sonic for instance is just trying to stop Eggman. That's it. There was a whole lot of purpose for the individual characters.

 

When characters fought one another, they had actual reasons for doing so; Knuckles and Rouge both want the Master Emerald but only one can have it. Tails was trying to save/avenge Sonic. Both Sonic and Shadow were trying to prove that the other wasn't all they thought themselves to be. These are motivations, something the cast of Heroes did not have. Why is Amy fighting Sonic again? To get him to marry her? The hell?

 

SA2 has the better structure out of the two. The plot is thought-out, with a few twists here and there. Heroes had a twist in Metal Sonic being the villain, but it simply wasn't all that well done.

 

Also, the real super power of teamwork? No thank you.

 

So yeah, SA2 wins.

[Tornado]

The only claim to fame Heroes' story has is fucking up the story of Adventure 2 so much that they needed a 3rd game to fix all of it, so...

[Komodin]

I say Sonic Adventure 2 gets my vote in terms of story, by virtue of Heroes barely having one in the first place.