Progression or Whitewash?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay, so I’ve been browsing the web, and while on the Escapist I came across a interesting topic on the forums about Michael B. Jordan playing the role of the Human Torch in the upcoming reboot of the Fantastic Four:

 

 

"Chronicle" star Michael B. Jordan is in contention to play The Human Torch in Josh Trank's "Fantastic Four" reboot due in 2015, which would give the African-American actor a rare role as a superhero in a big studio franchise, numerous individuals familiar with the project have toldTheWrap.

 

The Human Torch, also known as Johnny Storm, was white in the Marvel comic, and the wise-cracking character was previously played by Chris Evans in the original 2005 version and its 2007 sequel.

 

Twentieth Century Fox declined to comment on the record, but numerous individuals close to the studio and the actor have told TheWrap that "Chronicle" director Trank is considering a reunion with Jordan, whose feature career has soared since his breakout turns on TV in "The Wire" and "Friday Night Lights."

[link]

 

Now I remember the fiasco with the Hunger Games when racism reared its head. One of the characters, Rue, was clearly described as African American – or dark skinned with thick dark hair as the book describes her. Despite the author making this glaringly clear and even confirming it when questioned, some people got upset that the character wasn’t a blonde white girl.

 

And there was also the fiasco with the Avatar: The Last Airbender movie casting white people in roles of non-white characters and the backlash that came with this.

 

Now this? I'm reading the comments about the changes from the Human Torch being recast as African-American...and while some of you might not agree with me, I feel the comments have a point.

 

Now I have no idea what the other universe versions of the Human Torch are, but I'm not sure this is the same case as it would be with Nick Fury in where he was once a white character before having a black alternate self (model after Sam Jackson no less), so I'm not seeing anything that could link this with no problems. Which kinda contributes to me not thinking this was something they should do, and to say nothing of the Human Torch's relation to Invisible Woman provided that she still remains her ethnicity.

 

Now granted, we have no idea how this would play out. They could just have him adopted, and that could solve things right there. (although given how unfamiliar I am with FF that's a maybe) But it brings to question: is it white washing to have white actors cast non-white characters and progression when non-white actors cast as originally white characters?

 

"White wash" may be too strong a word to use in this case for some people, but you kinda get my drift here.

Edited May 13, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Nepenthe]

No, it's not white-washing, although I don't know whether to call it progression (although there was certainly an era where the Human Torch would not possibly be cast as non-White.) In a perfect world, it would be repugnant to some degree to cast actors who had different races and ethnicities to those of the characters they were playing, because different people or no more or less deserving of big acting breaks than others, assuming acting ability is equal. White characters would have white actors, black characters black actors, Hispanic characters Hispanic actors, and so on and so forth.

The problem is that we don't live in a perfect world, or rather, America continues to entertain a predominantly white or Eurocentric culture because of social demographics and because that makes money. There's a shitton more white superheroes than black superheroes as a result, so it's less of a good to cast white actors in black roles than it is the other way around. Is it a double-standard? Yes, but it's a minuscule double-standard compared to the big ass elephant in the room of still-shitty race relations in this country and the subsequent lack of black characters to see in film. In short, this issue is White History Month levels of eye-roll. It was eye-roll worthy when people pitched a fit when Idris Elba was cast in Thor, and it will be for the foreseeable future.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, Hollywood does have a lot of old-time biases that it just can't seem to let go of.

 

Still somewhat jarring for filmed works to shatter the barrier when I look at it. I'm generally more of a "follow the comics" kind of person when it comes to these things and let what generally happens in the comics influence what happens in its adaptations (meaning when the comics change a character's race and such and such then the movies and other adaptations can follow suit).

 

But as that old maxim goes, "don't judge a book by its cover."...then again, I did kinda lose interest in the Fantastic Four for the most part.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I was actually talking on these forums about this kind of thing recently, on the Doctor Who thread.

Basically, I can understand why it happens, but don't think it should. If you want a film about a black Spider-Man, for an example, use Miles Morales instead of making Peter Parker black. Not that there can't be black kids like Peter Parker, but that Peter Parker himself isn't black, and I do feel it's annoying when adaptations play too loose with these things.

[iDEATH]

It generally doesn't bother me when this sort of thing happens. It's an adaptation after all, it's a new story, things are gonna change.

 

There is a duality around this issue however and that bothers me a little. It's more acceptable to cast a coloured actor in a white role but it's always controversial when a white actor is cast in a coloured role.

The hunder games is a good example, Katniss is described in the book as being olive skinned (many thought she was native american) and there was a bit of a storm surrounding the casting of a white actress.

[Pelly <3's U]

I think if race is not a defining feature than it really doesn't bother me when people of other races are cast in the role. Of course I'm of the same mind of Nepenthe in feeling like there would be a difference in replacing a character of a minority race with a white actor, as I think that has some other social factors playing out in it.

 

I would actually love to see both invisible woman and the human torch being played by actors of other races. Superhero movies are boringly lacking diversity.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Considering how much they've been dominated with white characters for decades, that kind of diversity is not easy to ask for.

[Nepenthe]

I meant to find this the other day when I posted but I got lost in homework and Dodge Rams, but this video basically sums up my view of the issue better than I ever could:
 

Now, I will admit, there are a few characters who are white whom I couldn't really conceive of as being another race, because a Caucasian sense of identity is imperative to who they are and thus it simply wouldn't work with a minority actor. Captain America is the best example, or rather the Steve Rogers version of Captain America (are there multiple Captain Americas? There have to be, because, yanno, comics). He is basically 50s White America incarnate: Patriotic, religious, sworn to military and civic duty, hates Communism, that old fashioned, down home Boy Scout personality, the whole shebang. To make him black, Asian, Hispanic, Native American, etc. would be completely missing the point. The Human Torch, however?............... I mean. :/

[Mauro Fonseca]

Johnny Storm's a 60's socialite, but eh, it's true that his race isn't as important a factor if we update the setting to nowadays. I'd still rather there was an actual focus on working with the already existant heroes of other races instead of changing the white ones, but there's always the recognition factor... would a Heroes for Hire or a Misty Knight film sell as much as one with black Johnny Storm?

[Pelly <3's U]

Considering how much they've been dominated with white characters for decades, that kind of diversity is not easy to ask for.

 

But I don't think it should be that hard. Really, to me the fact that most superhero characters are made white is just because that's considered the 'default'. It hardly has any bearings on their character, besides them being created to appeal to a specific young white male audience. When you have a new retelling of a story, like a movie or whatnot I think the gates have been opened to reinterpretate their character, race included. There are some characters who I think race plays a defining role in their character, but these are mostly characters of a non-white race who are almost defined by their race simply due to the rarity of being a character outside of the norm, you know that their creator probably had a reason in mind to make them non-white/traditional. 

 

I can see Harlock's point that we could instead be focusing on a non-white hero from the get go, but the problem is how many of them are their and how sellable would they be in a lead movie role. Considering the amount of heros verses the amount that are considered 'big' enough to lead a movie  franchise, we're already pulling from a rediculously small pool. Really, in an industry where we have /vast/ amounts of name recognizable female comic book characters and we can't even have a successful movie based around them, how likely is it that we're going to have anyone other than the top 5 or 10 most 'sellable' male heroes have movies based around them? 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I meant to find this the other day when I posted but I got lost in homework and Dodge Rams, but this video basically sums up my view of the issue better than I ever could:

 

Now, I will admit, there are a few characters who are white whom I couldn't really conceive of as being another race, because a Caucasian sense of identity is imperative to who they are and thus it simply wouldn't work with a minority actor. Captain America is the best example, or rather the Steve Rogers version of Captain America (are there multiple Captain Americas? There have to be, because, yanno, comics). He is basically 50s White America incarnate: Patriotic, religious, sworn to military and civic duty, hates Communism, that old fashioned, down home Boy Scout personality, the whole shebang. To make him black, Asian, Hispanic, Native American, etc. would be completely missing the point. The Human Torch, however?............... I mean. :/

 

 

Eh, really just depends on how they do the adaptation. Of course, if the adaptation does bad it's obvious that race lifting had nothing to do with it. But if they pulled it off in Thor with Heimdall, then I guess why the hell not?

 

As far as race relation goes, we have a long way to allow more diversity without a bitch fit.

 

But I don't think it should be that hard. Really, to me the fact that most superhero characters are made white is just because that's considered the 'default'. It hardly has any bearings on their character, besides them being created to appeal to a specific young white male audience. When you have a new retelling of a story, like a movie or whatnot I think the gates have been opened to reinterpretate their character, race included. There are some characters who I think race plays a defining role in their character, but these are mostly characters of a non-white race who are almost defined by their race simply due to the rarity of being a character outside of the norm, you know that their creator probably had a reason in mind to make them non-white/traditional. 

When something that's been handled the same for decades even when modernized and standing the test of time, re-interpretating that into something else new is never gonna be easy. At all. It's the whole "humans hate change" element here, and at its worse it carries these ugly connotations. That's why people get upset with these things and these debates spring up.

 

A perfect world wouldn't make it that hard, but as said many times this isn't a perfect world. It would be easier if white audiences were more open to non-white fictional characters, but that ain't the case. Hence why they continue to be the "default".

Edited May 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Nepenthe]

In terms of utilizing existing black superheroes, not only would we be pulling from a small pool of characters (John Stewert Green Lantern* and Black Panther are probably the only ones who could carry a movie alone based on how recognizable they are), but you're pulling from just as small a pool of viable black actors to play these kinds of superheroes too. If there's one thing movie studios like, it's guaranteed returns by people who will see anything with a specific actor's mug on it. Some of biggest box-office draws like Will Smith and Denzel Washington are getting older, and a lot of our younger actors are relative unknowns starring in, well, Tyler Perry movies. Ultimately though, this is an issue that needs to start at the source, by creating more original, well-crafted minority superheroes in comics that the public will latch onto.

 

* That shitty Green Lantern movie with Ryan Reynolds probably destroyed any remote chances of this happening for awhile anyway, so what do we have left? Black Panther? Yae. xP

[Kuzu]

Like its been said, I guess it mostly depends on how important race is to the hero in question. Nick Fury used to be white, but almost everyone is going to know him Samuel L. Jackson nowadays and I don't remember the comic purists throwing a fit because of it. 

 

Jordan as Johnny is...weird to say the least, but I wouldn't see anything particularly wrong with it. But like Nepenthe said, there are a shortage on black superheroes and black actors to play them so meh.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well Jamie Foxx is gonna play the Ultimate-incarnation of Electro in the Amazing Spider-Man 2, and considering how that incarnation had a blue/yellow "skin" instead of anything you could connect to race that's another area. So using characters with ambiguous features is another place to start.

 

But as long as white people make up the majority, either something drastic happens and we get more newly created minority heroes (which I somewhat strongly recommend), or we have to wait out until a population shifts before other producers get the hint.

Edited May 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Mauro Fonseca]

I could see Terry Crews as Luke Cage, even if he's getting older. Seriously, get some good white martial artist to be Danny Rand, and Terry Crews as Luke Cage, and do a bloody Heroes for Hire film, that'd be amazing.

RE: Green Lantern, there's always the chance Jon Stewart could appear in Justice League. Not very likely though, not out of some inherent racism but because Geoff Johns is pulling the strings- and that means only the things he remembers from his childhood are valid. Green Lantern's Hal Jordan and that's that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And Static Shock? Don't forget that guy.

[JezMM]

I think the only time it would ever bother me is if a film was stated to be the very same continuity as another form of media.  For example... if they did a TV series, then instead of a final season said "we're ending it with a movie", then recast the characters to look different in any capacity, be it skin colour, hair colour, build, anything, because it would cause a bothersome disconnect when trying to enjoy that canon as a whole.  As an example... The Walking Dead video game series is (I believe still) canon to the comics, with the exception of Lilly being a different Lilly from the one in the comics.  Even if due to the Lilly thing they've now decided it's a seperate canon, at the time it came out, it was meant to be canon to the comics - therefore it would have been jarring as hell if they had made Glenn not be Asian, or made Hershel black.

 

But superhero movies are always a seperate canon from the comics.  Different things happen in the movies, they are different characters - so it's no problem there.

 

 

The only other time it would be a bit off is if it just plain didn't make sense.  For example, a middle-class character being recast as black in a period setting where they literally would not have been able to live as the character does due to the racism around, etc.  Obviously if they altered the character's backstory to reflect that, then no problem.  Of course this is not an issue at all in modern settings.

Edited May 14, 2013 by JezMM

[Stacy]

I meant to find this the other day when I posted but I got lost in homework and Dodge Rams, but this video basically sums up my view of the issue better than I ever could:

 

Now, I will admit, there are a few characters who are white whom I couldn't really conceive of as being another race, because a Caucasian sense of identity is imperative to who they are and thus it simply wouldn't work with a minority actor. Captain America is the best example, or rather the Steve Rogers version of Captain America (are there multiple Captain Americas? There have to be, because, yanno, comics). He is basically 50s White America incarnate: Patriotic, religious, sworn to military and civic duty, hates Communism, that old fashioned, down home Boy Scout personality, the whole shebang. To make him black, Asian, Hispanic, Native American, etc. would be completely missing the point. The Human Torch, however?............... I mean. :/

 

Isn't Captain America a symbol of the 1940's as well wasn't he initially made for War Propaganda? 

 

As for the Human Torch isn't he related to Invisible Woman? So would her ethnicity have to be changed as well. If they going for a completely angle being that none of the Fantastic Four are related then I see no problem as it is not offensively stereotypical.

Edited May 14, 2013 by BW199148

[The Conductor]

I don't care about this, in this world we need positive discrimination. It sucks, but it's true. There's nothing about Johnny that insists he has to be white, unlike say...Hatemonger or Baron Zemo who only work if they're white. I just hope they are consistent with it when it comes to Sue Storm.

 

 

Also there's been a few mistakes made about Captain America:

 

1) 

 

We can totally have a black Captain America ;D

 

2) The "Commie-Smasher" Captain America is not the same one as the one from the Avengers. 

Edited May 14, 2013 by The Conductor

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Isn't that Black Captain American one mentioned in the Young Avengers? Not the teen, but his mention that they tested the super serum on black soldiers as guinea pigs before they put the final testing on white subjects?

[The Conductor]

Yes, but he first appeared in a storyline called Truth: Red White and...Black? where it was revealed that the they tested the Super Serum on some black people before giving it to Steve Rogers.

[Linkabel]

Isn't that Black Captain American one mentioned in the Young Avengers? Not the teen, but his mention that they tested the super serum on black soldiers as guinea pigs before they put the final testing on white subjects?

 

If I remember correctly, His name is Isaiah Bradley and he was the survivor of those experiments you are talking about when they were trying to recreate the super soldier serum from Truth: Red, White & Black. I do remember it was a good read though.

 

Also, didn't people use to say the Ultimate Nick Fury version was based on him?

[The Conductor]

If I remember correctly, His name is Isaiah Bradley and he was the survivor of those experiments you are talking about when they were trying to recreate the super soldier serum from Truth: Red, White & Black. I do remember it was a good read though.

 

Also, didn't people use to say the Ultimate Nick Fury version was based on him?

 

Dunno about based on. But their origins are very similar, since they were both based on very real experiments that the US Government performed on black people. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Makes me wonder if they ever did make the black Captain America more mainstream in this day and age. Boy could I see even more outrage...

[JezMM]

Makes me wonder if they ever did make the black Captain America more mainstream in this day and age. Boy could I see even more outrage...

 

Oh totally, can you imagine if a major representative of America was black!?