Multiple Characters in a 3d level: How does one balance the level design?

[Chaos Warp]

I made a status update about this recently, and I figured this was different enough from the general multiple characters thread so here we go:
 

In the Classic Sonic games and the Sonic Advance games, more then one Sonic character is playable. You can select any one of these characters to play through the game, with the same levels, and each one had unique abilities. But how does one translate this to 3d level design? One must balance the level design for all characters abilities, Sonic's speed, Tail's flight, Knuckle's wall climbing and strength, etc etc and must still make the level design fun, interesting, and non-convoluted. How does one do this?

 

Thoughts? Discuss!

[Da Blu Hedgie]

"looks at sonic heroes" Yeah while not perfect it works.

[Mr Useful]

Some alternate pathways could be made to accommodate various pros and cons of character to make sure that the stage doesn't become to easy with the ability to fly or climb walls.

 

Knuckles can't climb walls of a certain kind(i.e. Metal) combine that with his low jump so we can have areas he can't access.

 

Sonic and Tails aren't very strong while Knuckles is and Amy has a huge hammer so Knuckles and Amy have access to an alternate route.

 

There could be a switch way off from the map that Gamma or Omega could shoot to open up a new pathway.

[Chaos Warp]

"looks at sonic heroes" Yeah while not perfect it works.

Wouldn't really say that works. That game's level design requires you to use a certain's characters abilities at a certain time, not to choose your one character to use the whole time. 

[Da Blu Hedgie]

Wouldn't really say that works. That game's level design requires you to use a certain's characters abilities at a certain time, not to choose your one character to use the whole time. 

But you can switch on the fly, and you can be sonic the majority of a level, I see it all the time in speedruns.

[Jolt_TH]

To be fair I think it is pretty hard to make a single level that is suitable for all characters, in 2D you have a maximum of 8 directions, up, down, left, right and the diagonals so its fairly easy to restrict movement into all characters (S3&K is a great example) but giving each character new places to discover.

The problem with 3D is you have a whole load of new directions you have, forward, backwards, left, right, up, down, forward-left, forward-right, backwards-left, backwards-right, upwards-left, upwards-right, downwards-left, downwards-right, up-forwards-left, up-forwards-right, up-backwards-left, up-backwards-right, down-forwards-right, down-forwards-left, down-backwards-left, down-backwards-right. That's 22 directions of travel (I may have missed some), some of which you may have to block at certain times.

The main problem of course is our two game breakers, Tails and Knuckles, Knuckles especially can climb walls and glide indefinitely, making most levels a breeze and he can just glide over all the obstacles. tails is the same but two a lesser extent because Tails' flying is usually limited to a time frame.

Another problem is putting things in the environment, sure you could put some things out of bounds but visible but them people would complain about having it in there in the first place of your not going to use it, don't include it.

The BEST solution I can think of would be to have each level like a open area, so all characters can move around as freely as possible. Of course there are again many problems with this. Firstly being there would be no sense of direction, especially when using characters like Sonic who is designed to move fast, in a wide open space you may get lost or find yourself in a previously visited area going in circles. Even though the restricted movement is much less in a wide open space, Knuckles would still be a game breaker, still able to climb to the highest point and simply glide to the Goal. Tails too would be able to just fly over most obstacles that would affect ground based characters (so most of the obstacles as it would generally be developed to affect Sonic more...it's his game after all).

I'm not sure how to overcome these major problems with 3D gameplay but I'm sure there is a solution (and PLEASE don't say "invisible walls" as no one likes them and destroys your sense of freedom to play how you want) and once that solution is found I sure as hell hope they include other characters as playable!

[JezMM]

But you can switch on the fly, and you can be sonic the majority of a level, I see it all the time in speedruns.

 

That is literally completely different from designing a level for multiple characters to go through without switching.

[Mr Useful]

To be fair I think it is pretty hard to make a single level that is suitable for all characters, in 2D you have a maximum of 8 directions, up, down, left, right and the diagonals so its fairly easy to restrict movement into all characters (S3&K is a great example) but giving each character new places to discover.

The problem with 3D is you have a whole load of new directions you have, forward, backwards, left, right, up, down, forward-left, forward-right, backwards-left, backwards-right, upwards-left, upwards-right, downwards-left, downwards-right, up-forwards-left, up-forwards-right, up-backwards-left, up-backwards-right, down-forwards-right, down-forwards-left, down-backwards-left, down-backwards-right. That's 22 directions of travel (I may have missed some), some of which you may have to block at certain times.

The main problem of course is our two game breakers, Tails and Knuckles, Knuckles especially can climb walls and glide indefinitely, making most levels a breeze and he can just glide over all the obstacles. tails is the same but two a lesser extent because Tails' flying is usually limited to a time frame.

Another problem is putting things in the environment, sure you could put some things out of bounds but visible but them people would complain about having it in there in the first place of your not going to use it, don't include it.

The BEST solution I can think of would be to have each level like a open area, so all characters can move around as freely as possible. Of course there are again many problems with this. Firstly being there would be no sense of direction, especially when using characters like Sonic who is designed to move fast, in a wide open space you may get lost or find yourself in a previously visited area going in circles. Even though the restricted movement is much less in a wide open space, Knuckles would still be a game breaker, still able to climb to the highest point and simply glide to the Goal. Tails too would be able to just fly over most obstacles that would affect ground based characters (so most of the obstacles as it would generally be developed to affect Sonic more...it's his game after all).

I'm not sure how to overcome these major problems with 3D gameplay but I'm sure there is a solution (and PLEASE don't say "invisible walls" as no one likes them and destroys your sense of freedom to play how you want) and once that solution is found I sure as hell hope they include other characters as playable!

Have the walls that let you climb up to an extremely high point unclimbable so knuckles can't do what you just said. One way to justify them is by making them metal or a visibly hard surface that knuckles can't penetrate.

[Diogenes]

That's a complicated question, and to go into specifics we'd need to know which characters and abilities we're talking about.

In general, though, the first step is to limit any kind of "flight" ability. Tails's flight, Knuckles' gliding, etc. They were powerful abilities in 2D, and they only get more powerful in 3D if they aren't reined in. In 2D the levels were usually built vertically enough and winding enough that you'd hit a wall if you tried to fly over everything, but that'd be hard to replicate in 3D without making the levels very claustrophobic. Plus the important parts of Sonic gameplay happen when you're regularly interacting with the ground, not when you're flying over it.

It's also important to remember that there's two ways that the different abilities matter. One is solving different problems (Tails can fly up here while Sonic can't, Knuckles can break this wall that Tails can't, etc). The other, which I don't often see brought up, is solving the same problem in different ways. If you've got a vertical shaft, Tails could fly up it, Knuckles could climb up it, and Sonic could wall jump up it. You end up in the same place, but the experience is different because your abilities are different.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

That's a complicated question, and to go into specifics we'd need to know which characters and abilities we're talking about.

In general, though, the first step is to limit any kind of "flight" ability. Tails's flight, Knuckles' gliding, etc. They were powerful abilities in 2D, and they only get more powerful in 3D if they aren't reined in. In 2D the levels were usually built vertically enough and winding enough that you'd hit a wall if you tried to fly over everything, but that'd be hard to replicate in 3D without making the levels very claustrophobic. Plus the important parts of Sonic gameplay happen when you're regularly interacting with the ground, not when you're flying over it.

It's also important to remember that there's two ways that the different abilities matter. One is solving different problems (Tails can fly up here while Sonic can't, Knuckles can break this wall that Tails can't, etc). The other, which I don't often see brought up, is solving the same problem in different ways. If you've got a vertical shaft, Tails could fly up it, Knuckles could climb up it, and Sonic could wall jump up it. You end up in the same place, but the experience is different because your abilities are different.

Should also factor in some little things such as the fact that flight oriented abilities aren't always exactly the same. Take Tails and Knuckles: They both have the ability to "fly", but Tails is ascending and eventually loses power, causing a slow and lengthy descent, while Knuckles is descending at a constant rate. The levels could partially try to factor in this detail by creating levels that require some degree of flight control, taking into consideration just how certain characters move when in the air, thus allowing for some areas to be more easily accessible to Tails due to his ability to ascend upwards, while Knuckles' constant rate of descent would allow him greater accuracy or something along that line when trying to descend unlike Tails.

 

I might be over-thinking it though.

[Chaos Warp]

That's a complicated question, and to go into specifics we'd need to know which characters and abilities we're talking about.

In general, though, the first step is to limit any kind of "flight" ability. Tails's flight, Knuckles' gliding, etc. They were powerful abilities in 2D, and they only get more powerful in 3D if they aren't reined in. In 2D the levels were usually built vertically enough and winding enough that you'd hit a wall if you tried to fly over everything, but that'd be hard to replicate in 3D without making the levels very claustrophobic. Plus the important parts of Sonic gameplay happen when you're regularly interacting with the ground, not when you're flying over it.

 

How much do you nerf these abilities though? You don't wanna go full-on Sonic Heroes with Tail's flying, and how do you nerf something like the climbing?

It's also important to remember that there's two ways that the different abilities matter. One is solving different problems (Tails can fly up here while Sonic can't, Knuckles can break this wall that Tails can't, etc). The other, which I don't often see brought up, is solving the same problem in different ways. If you've got a vertical shaft, Tails could fly up it, Knuckles could climb up it, and Sonic could wall jump up it. You end up in the same place, but the experience is different because your abilities are different.

[Diogenes]

How much do you nerf these abilities though? You don't wanna go full-on Sonic Heroes with Tail's flying,

Flight sucked in Heroes because it was slow. Make it snappier and a short timer would be less of an issue.

and how do you nerf something like the climbing?

That one's simple, limit where he can climb. Don't make that big tower climbable unless you've accounted for the player climbing it and gliding from it. Climbable surfaces should still be common, but very high ones should be rare.

[Jolt_TH]

That's the MAIN problem with the 3D gameplay is how to limit them without Nerfing them

[Chaos Warp]

Replies in bold. 

Flight sucked in Heroes because it was slow. Make it snappier and a short timer would be less of an issue.

Yeah, I suppose that could work. Kinda like SA1 then? 
That one's simple, limit where he can climb. Don't make that big tower climbable unless you've accounted for the player climbing it and gliding from it. Climbable surfaces should still be common, but very high ones should be rare.

How would the player distinguish what's climbable and what's not?

[Diogenes]

Yeah, I suppose that could work. Kinda like SA1 then?

In terms of how he controls, maybe...but his flight in SA was massively overpowered, to the point where any outdoor area was a joke. It'd have to be dialed down from there.

How would the player distinguish what's climbable and what's not?

Texture. Kind of like how Portal only lets you put portals on light-colored surfaces.

[Chaos Warp]

In terms of how he controls, maybe...but his flight in SA was massively overpowered, to the point where any outdoor area was a joke. It'd have to be dialed down from there.

Yeah, I was kinda just thinking the upwards flight time and height, not how you can fly way farther then you should be able to after the "upwards flight time" is over. Side note: it would be nice when Tails started dropping to not show him to be tired as to not break canon where he can fly much longer and higher. 

Texture. Kind of like how Portal only lets you put portals on light-colored surfaces.

I don't know, I think something like that won't work everywhere. Since Portal is set in test chambers, they can make it very blatant where you can place portals (white surfaces) and that kind of blatancy might not work in a supposedly natural environment without looking stupid. 

[Diogenes]

I don't know, I think something like that won't work everywhere. Since Portal is set in test chambers, they can make it very blatant where you can place portals (white surfaces) and that kind of blatancy might not work in a supposedly natural environment without looking stupid.

The Portal games also have a lot of back room areas, and they use the same idea. For Sonic, you can use certain kinds of patterns. Some variant of the checkerboard pattern in a GHZ-alike. Edited May 27, 2013 by Diogenes

[Sean]

Honestly wouldn't mind too much if Tails's flight was handled in a similar way to the propellor block from the Mario games. Although instead of one vertical boost, you can get three or something, and then holding the jump button would enable a slowly descending hover. So like... Heroes, but not entirely shit I suppose.

[MegasonicZX]

Wouldn't really say that works. That game's level design requires you to use a certain's characters abilities at a certain time, not to choose your one character to use the whole time. 

I could see it working if they made it less required and more taking the path that you would think its faster.

[Burnt Ash]

You could balance it by controlling how you emphasize traversing the level. If the level is vertically structured, say Modern Planet Wisp, that's the kind of level suited to accommodate for Tails's abilities. Take something more horizontally structured, say Rooftop Run, you've got something more suited to Sonic's abilities. So, I think there has to be a balance in that regard to accommodate for other playable characters so as to not make their abilities feel out of place.

[Mr. Taxi]

We can always consider the possibility of balancing the gameplay by maximizing the imbalance between the characters. It's what S3&K did with Sonic and Knuckles, really.

 

Knuckles may be able to overpower sections that imposed some challenge on Sonic - but that's fine. After all, assuming you'll play as Knuckles after Sonic, balancing the gameplay by limiting what's intrinsic to Knuckles will only feel clumsy. What S3&K did, however, was to make it impossible for Knuckles to do something natural to Sonic - jumping at a certain height -, which led him to naturally more dangerous and obligatory paths.

 

Tails was indeed a problem, but, in 3D, I guess it would be fine to take away his ability to curl up into a ball. It may sound a little extreme, but it gives him complete disadvantage on the ground and, maybe, makes some paths unaccessible to him and forcing the player to see other options.

 

It's only karmic.

 

And sense of direction doesn't need to be a problem in 3D. You can always draw inspiration from the Bible and use a big object to set the notion of "ahead" even when you're not facing it. It may be the sun, for example. Otherwise, you can dictate the path by using an object like a river, whose course is to be followed. This is good because objects can be integrated with the game's narrative as well. Say the river is polluted and you have to find the source of the waste, for instance.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Palas

[ssjasonx]

 Shadow and Sonic should play like modern sonic in generations ,Tails should go back to SA1 gameplay and

Knuckles should play like Sonic's SA1 gamplay

[Splash the Otter]

We can always consider the possibility of balancing the gameplay by maximizing the imbalance between the characters. It's what S3&K did with Sonic and Knuckles, really.

 

Knuckles may be able to overpower sections that imposed some challenge on Sonic - but that's fine. After all, assuming you'll play as Knuckles after Sonic, balancing the gameplay by limiting what's intrinsic to Knuckles will only feel clumsy. What S3&K did, however, was to make it impossible for Knuckles to do something natural to Sonic - jumping at a certain height -, which led him to naturally more dangerous and obligatory paths.

 

Tails was indeed a problem, but, in 3D, I guess it would be fine to take away his ability to curl up into a ball. It may sound a little extreme, but it gives him complete disadvantage on the ground and, maybe, makes some paths unaccessible to him and forcing the player to see other options.

 

It's only karmic.

 

And sense of direction doesn't need to be a problem in 3D. You can always draw inspiration from the Bible and use a big object to set the notion of "ahead" even when you're not facing it. It may be the sun, for example. Otherwise, you can dictate the path by using an object like a river, whose course is to be followed. This is good because objects can be integrated with the game's narrative as well. Say the river is polluted and you have to find the source of the waste, for instance.

I think with Tails, his tail attack should be kept. It doesn't have to be anywhe as powerful as Sonic's spindash or Knuckles' fists, but he should still be able to defend himself on the ground. Maybe it would only stun enemies, instead of killing them? I'm also not sure how he would attack in the air. The only thing I can think of is his grapple ring (or whatever it's called) from Skypatrol.

 

Your idea of a polluted river sounds interesting. I can see how it could even be used for platforming. Imagine an area where the only way to progress is on the other side of the river. You could jump on the garbage floating downstream to cross the river and move onward!

[G-Force]

Whenever I think of how to design 3D levels for multiple characters, I always end up thinking about the very beginning of Marble Garden Act 2.  Right near the start is an open area with two signs on a pole.  One points upward while the other points to the right.  Tails is free to pick either up and to the left or straight to the right, but Sonic and Knuckles have little choice but to go right.  What's interesting about this is how they force knuckles to go right.  The two walls on either side of this area have spikes on them which are positioned just well enough to prevent Knuckles from climbing to the top of the left wall or climbing high enough on the right wall to glide over to the path on the left.  This always sticks in my mind because this is how they created one of the few true Tails exclusive paths.

 

Tails is actually fairly easy to balance against the level designs.  All you really need to do is balance his stamina the right way, like a gauge that slowly drains when you fly, and drains faster when you try to gain altitude.  Pair that with, well, walls.  Whenever I think about this sort of thing, I usually end up picturing the main Mystic Ruins area with the train station and the Windy Valley entrance.  It was a fairly open area partially surrounded by cliffs tall enough that Tails couldn't reach the top of them.

 

Knuckles can climb and glide potentially forever, but there are still limits to these abilities.  Knux can't gain altitude while gliding, so if an area needs to be designed with Knuckles in mind, all it takes is to make it so that Knuckles can never get high enough to glide somewhere he shouldn't be.  To keep his climbing in check, all you need to do is remember what Marble Garden did, and simply have things sticking out of the walls that prevent Knuckles from climbing too high.  Pretty much anything can work, as long it sticks out far enough to obviously block him.  He's never been able to stick to ceilings after all.  the last thing would be that he probably shouldn't be able to gain much (if any) altitude from jumping off of walls.  make it so he's more jumping away from the wall, rather than upwards.

 

In contrast to these other guys, Sonic was always a bit more vanilla.  Personally?  I actually kind of liked that.  Sonic provided the normal, focused gameplay experience while the others offered the same basic mechanics along with something a bit different.  As a general rule for Sonic game, I'd say the best approach would be to focus Sonic on a more focused and streamlined core experience, and let other characters be quirky in comparison.

[-blank-]

Hmm, this is a tough one.

 

Let's look at the triple threat; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. The way I see it, I think S3 & K did this fairly well - the core gameplay was the same, but at the same time, the characters still had enough differences between them. You had Sonic, who was the only one who could use the elemental shields. Tails could fly, obviously and the both of them could jump higher than Knuckles. With Knuckles you were often pretty much forced to take lower paths because the walls would be too high for you to reach. Something like that wouldn't hurt, only instead of elemental shields, Sonic can use his homing attack.