S.L.W. Screenshots (P. 54) "Grammar Errors? This game is a sequel to Sonic's Schoolhouse!?"

[Eternal EX]

If we had this on more powerful hardware, we'd be able to have better graphics with a 60 fps guarantee. I knew this exclusivity deal would make the games suffer in the graphics department. Still, who knows how much of this ingenious gameplay is courtesy of Nintendo? If they had much to do with the gameplay, then overall I'm glad that it's exclusive.

 

Even though we all know the Wii u is the weakest console when it comes to power. We still don't know how powerful it is. Remember, this is only the first year, and it's not been a very strong one at that. But it did give a remake to Batman AC. And that does take some power. I know for sure I saw framerate drops in the 360 version. This game though, while I'm still very skeptical about it, we've only seen one level. It could surprise us like Generations and Unleashed did. Look at Jungle Joyride and Seaside Hill (gens). Those stages blew our minds. And Sega toned them down on consoles. I have faith in Sega+Nintendo.  (still waiting on what Smash Bros 4 brings)

[KHCast]

There is little to no reason why the final stage in this game can't look like that, either. Let's compare apples to apples here, green hills to green hills.

Sean basically said everything I was going to say, more or less. They're bringing the series back to it's cartoony roots that it's been consistently straying from since S3&K, and I love it. the new effects, enemy designs and stage pallets show a real sense of detail and direction that's been sorely missing for a long time.

Ehh, I thought Colors,Heroes and Gens were pretty cartoony on certain ways. I mean the Gens badniks seemed pretty faithful to the original and cartoony. The design of levels aesthetically and visually in Heroes and generations also seemed to harken back to the classics in more ways than one.

I kinda see what you mean, but to say the series abandoned that sense of cartoonyness and wackiness I wouldn't say personally.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Gonard

[Jolt_TH]

I think that people mean that games like gens especially took cartoony and tried to render it as real world. This has taken cartoony and tries to render it cartoony

[Solkia]

....

 

....

 

Well, as long as we're acting like we're tech experts even though we aren't, I'll just pull this out of my ass:

 

It's not rendering anything to look cartoony. The only form of cartoony rendering as far as I know is cel-shading. Which this game is not doing.

 

It's using cartoony textures and design.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Solkuririn

[PSI Wind]

The badniks are seriously 1:1 of their concept arts. Well, okay, the Motobugs have bigger, bit bulgier eyes but that's it.

[Blue Blood]

I'd argue that Lost World simplifies the designs a fair bit. It's especially the case with the Choppers, as they've smaller fins and almost non-existent body detail. Compare to this screenshot of ASR, which is also based off of Sonic 1:

[Mauro Fonseca]

There is little to no reason why the final stage in this game can't look like that, either. Let's compare apples to apples here, green hills to green hills. 

 

Sean basically said everything I was going to say, more or less. They're bringing the series back to it's cartoony roots that it's been consistently straying from since S3&K, and I love it. the new effects, enemy designs and stage pallets show a real sense of detail and direction that's been sorely missing for a long time.

 

Are we seriously going with "only stupidly simplistic is cartoon" angle again? What, did a century of cartoon history disappear for us to be forced back into some sort of 80's-cum-rubberhose world where there can't be more detail or the cel won't be understandeable at all?

[Solkia]

Are we seriously going with "only stupidly simplistic is cartoon" angle again? What, did a century of cartoon history disappear for us to be forced back into some sort of 80's-cum-rubberhose world where there can't be more detail or the cel won't be understandeable at all?

 

What the hell does that even mean?

[Solly]

Speaking of framrate: I want to say that I'd prefer higher framerates to HOY SHIT ALL THEM DETAILS when it come to visuals.

 

I recently downloaded a video of the Unleashed generations project, with the video running at 60fps.

 

I wanted to cry at how huge of a difference higher framerates make. 

 

If they can make this game run at 60FPS, I can give zero fucks about the textures.

Sadly I'm not expecting 60fps. It really does look a lot better, but 30fps is the standard for most console games.

 

It's serviceable and there are some games that run at 30 or lower and look fantastic, but I just don't see 60 happening.

 

Are we seriously going with "only stupidly simplistic is cartoon" angle again? What, did a century of cartoon history disappear for us to be forced back into some sort of 80's-cum-rubberhose world where there can't be more detail or the cel won't be understandeable at all?

Nobody is saying that. Like, at all. 

 

Actually, what the hell ARE you saying?

 

Edit: I don't see anything "stupidly simplistic" about this art, either. This is like me asking "are we seriously going for the only-highly-detailed-shit-is-good angle again?"

Edited May 30, 2013 by Solly

[Mauro Fonseca]

Except that's not the angle I'm going for. I am, as I said before, questioning the idea that "making the graphic style very simplistic" is "finally a return to roots" and "cartoony", but apparently the more detailed look of Colours is neither, meaning both Sonic 1 disappeared (for the return to roots part, since apparently Sonic Colours wasn't returning to roots at all), and so did 80 or so years of cartoon history since anything that's more complex that this isn't "cartoony", Disney and Fleischer studios be damned.

[Solly]

Except that's not the angle I'm going for. I am, as I said before, questioning the idea that "making the graphic style very simplistic" is "finally a return to roots" and "cartoony", but apparently the more detailed look of Colours is neither, meaning both Sonic 1 disappeared (for the return to roots part, since apparently Sonic Colours wasn't returning to roots at all), and so did 80 or so years of cartoon history since anything that's more complex that this isn't "cartoony", Disney and Fleischer studios be damned.

Nobody's really saying Colors or previous games aren't cartoony in any aspect. It's just that this is more cartoon-like, and yes, having a more simple visual style IS part of that. That's not to say cartoons can't be detailed or anything, but you're reading too far into the use of the term. 

[Diogenes]

Lost World is returning to the particular cartoony style of early Sonic games moreso than other games have.

 

That's it. No one's throwing the rest of cartooning under the bus.

[Scar]

Unleashed/Colors/Generations focused on making gorgeous backgrounds at the cost of making 90% of all visuals inaccessable and off in the distance. Lost World on the other hand seems to be going for the complete inverse from what we've seen so far: lack of focus on detailed backgrounds with more emphasis on interesting setpieces with which the player can directly interact.

Then make them accessible!! Make the stages a huge environment, in which most things can be interacted with. Would that not solve the problem? Make all the stuff that was inaccessible in Generations, now accessible. The apparent changes in the way Sonic can move would certainly allow this kind of approach.

 

I'll take the latter for being a perfect translation of iconic Sonic visuals from 2D to 3D, much in the same way that Mario did with Galaxy and 3D Land. Somehow, Sega has made the classic aesthetics in this game look far much more natural and pretty in 3D than they ever did in Heroes or Generations.

I disagree with this notion in its entirety. Its translating the visuals from the classics almost directly. That's fine, and dandy, but I feel its lacking the intention of those visuals, its superficial. As far as I'm concerned, the classics never intended the stages to look like obstacle courses plonked in front of a background. They tried to make the stages and backgrounds feel connected. Best example I can think of, is Launch Base Zone. You see the Death Egg in the mountains in the background, as you progress through the stage, you eventually reach the Death Egg, and its in the foreground. It sort of simulated Sonic traversing across the shores of a u-shaped bay or lake, till he reached the Death Egg. They tried, with the limited resources they had, to make the stage feel like it was a part of the landscape, rather than an obstacle course floating in front of a picturesque background. Lava Reef Zone Act 2 does the same thing with the Death Egg in the background. Angel Island feels like you're going through a jungle, rather than going through a stage, with a jungle for a background.

Yes, Mario Galaxy translated the visuals of 2D Mario games into 3D directly, by having stages that literally float in empty space. I just don't think that's what Sonic visuals are about. The boost trilogy, I will admit, was a bit frustrating, because you couldn't really get to the pretty stuff in the background, no matter how much you wanted to do exactly that. But that problem was linked more to the gameplay, which didn't allow you to go exploring. Now Sonic Team appear to have finally settled upon a movement paradigm that may actually allow for such exploration, it feels (at least to me) to be such a huge step backwards now, for us to have stages which are floating in the air, disconnected from the landscape they are inspired by.

Its not as bad as Heroes where you can walk off the side to your doom; thanks to clever use of gravity and curling the stages back on themselves, forming long tubes of stage. Its not bad, and I wouldn't mind this being a one-time deal, or even something like the storybook games, where it remains exclusive to Nintendo-based Sonic games. I just don't want this type of thing to define Sonic indefinitely. 

 

TL;DR-

Its not about the cartoony textures or whatever. Its more about the environment. I like the cartoony textures and pop-art-esque visuals, and I'd like them even more if it helps Sonic Team achieve 60fps while maintaining visual fidelity. I just want bigger stages, and I want the stages to be a part of their environment, rather than merely floating serenely above them.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Scar

[Faseeh]

I'd just like to say that other games and Sonic in terms of frame rate are different.

 

For a fast paced game, that is always flowing and something is always happening and it's fast, 60fps is like OMGGGGG. It just really fits and yeah, once you get it, you don't want to lose it.

 

While I'd like 60fps, I won't cry if we get 30.

[Scar]

I'd just like to say that other games and Sonic in terms of frame rate are different.

 

For a fast paced game, that is always flowing and something is always happening and it's fast, 60fps is like OMGGGGG. It just really fits and yeah, once you get it, you don't want to lose it.

 

While I'd like 60fps, I won't cry if we get 30.

 

60 is a must for me. If the cartoonish textures help reach that, all the more reason to use them.

[Faseeh]

60 is a must for me. If the cartoonish textures help reach that, all the more reason to use them.

 

Well, your expectation is high.

 

Also, on your earlier post about making the attractive background part of the field.

 

There's a huge problem with that. Collision files.

 

Collision files are huge and a lot of mods planned for Sonic Generations don't get though because of that. So you see, if you made those parts accessible, you'd need collision for them.

 

And Generations and Unleashed don't work with huge files. The collision files are still huge even if you only make collision for the outside layers and such.

 

Why yes, Sonic Team could have made them work since they can do it but then it'd run in even worse.

 

They kinda know what they're doing now and this will run better, while still looking equally gorgeous and be more interactive.

[Diogenes]

Then make them accessible!! Make the stages a huge environment, in which most things can be interacted with. Would that not solve the problem? Make all the stuff that was inaccessible in Generations, now accessible. The apparent changes in the way Sonic can move would certainly allow this kind of approach.

Well, okay, but now they have to design several times more terrain per level, so expect a game of 1 or 2 levels, or one game every 7 years.

Also, a question: if you expand the playable area to include the visible background elements...what do you see at the edge of that? If you expand the playable area in, say, Rooftop Run...does the city just disappear at the edge?

Edited May 30, 2013 by Diogenes

[Scar]

Well, your expectation is high.

 

Also, on your earlier post about making the attractive background part of the field.

 

There's a huge problem with that. Collision files.

 

Collision files are huge and a lot of mods planned for Sonic Generations don't get though because of that. So you see, if you made those parts accessible, you'd need collision for them.

 

And Generations and Unleashed don't work with huge files. The collision files are still huge even if you only make collision for the outside layers and such.

 

Why yes, Sonic Team could have made them work since they can do it but then it'd run in even worse.

 

They kinda know what they're doing now and this will run better, while still looking equally gorgeous and be more interactive.

 

I dunno much about the specifics of this, I'll be honest. Maybe such things would be possible on stronger hardware such as on PC or the PS4 or Xbone.

Well, okay, but now they have to design several times more terrain per level, so expect a game of 1 or 2 levels, or one a game every 7 years.

I suppose if you're talking really huge Just Cause 2 level massive. I don't think it needs to be anywhere near that large for each stage. I'm pretty sure we've had discussions about how this would work in other topics.

Also, a question: if you expand the playable area to include the visible background elements...what do you see at the edge of that? If you expand the playable area in, say, Rooftop Run...does the city just disappear at the edge?

Obviously you're going to need a boundary at some point. Perhaps the specifics of how, are better suited to another topic. In brief, I suppose you just have to put down invisible walls or even visible boundaries down to not just have the edge of the city be a drop off into a giant void Edited May 30, 2013 by Scar

[Faseeh]

I dunno much about the specifics of this, I'll be honest. Maybe such things would be possible on stronger hardware such as on PC or the PS4 or Xbone.

 

It could have but yeah, what Diogenes said comes into play now.

 

I mean, I'd rather have more levels than huge levels. I mean, it'll prolly end up directionless if you made everything in Chemical Plant Modern accessible, you'd be like on buildings and it'd just be pointless.

 

The direction they've taken here, regarding graphics and level design, will help the game look and run better while still playing better with more paths (as SilentDoom pointed out) than we have had ever before.

[Scar]

I think at this point it would be wise to take this discussion elsewhere. I just wanted to get my opinion of things out there for now.

[WolfI]

I dunno much about the specifics of this, I'll be honest. Maybe such things would be possible on stronger hardware such as on PC or the PS4 or Xbone.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that once a Sonic game comes out on the PS4/Xbone, they're gonna push the graphics at the expense of framerate, like Unleashed. But honestly, maybe they've changed their philosophy with this next game.

 

I do hope for 60 FPS on Lost World, it seems plausible as the graphics at the very least don't appear to be more demanding than Generations, and the Wii U is supposedly slightly more powerful than the 360/PS3 (at least when it comes to GPU). I could be wrong about both of those assumptions, though.

[Junko]

Have there been no Sonic games running at 60FPS? Really? All the previous titles have been 30? Aside from the PC ones...

Edited May 30, 2013 by TripsS3

[Scar]

Have there been no Sonic games running at 60FPS? Really? All the previous titles have been 30? Aside from the PC ones...

I think Heroes on the GameCube did run at 60.

[Mark1]

Lost World is returning to the particular cartoony style of early Sonic games moreso than other games have.

That's it. No one's throwing the rest of cartooning under the bus.

I thought so as well.

EDIT: 60fps would be a plus, but not too big of a deal if it runs at 30.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Mark1

[WolfI]

I think Heroes on the GameCube did run at 60.

Same goes for...Adventure DX (GC/online market services), I think Shadow on the GC ran at 60 too, but yeah, many Sonic games run on 30 FPS which is a shame as the games that do run on 60 benefit so much from that.