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How should Sonic work in 3D?


Masterofnone169

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But it takes a lot of time to figure out why gravity works in a context, but is completely ignored in the other,

Sonic will stay on the ground (even if the ground is a wall or ceiling) as long as he stays above a certain speed and as long as he can follow a curve to change directions. I think the gist of it is pretty easy to work out.

since curves generally don't annulate gravity in Sonic.

They...kinda do? Gravity isn't "on" when you're on the ground (/wall/ceiling). They fake it, in a way that won't actually pull you off when you're upside down. It's a separate check for if your speed is under some number to actually make you fall off. So even in Sonic 1, I think, given the right situation, you could run on an infinite ceiling indefinitely.

And if you have to separate such a specific time and place to show the player what it's like, then I wonder if it's really so much more worth than it's trouble.

...are you going to say that any mechanic that requires teaching the player about it isn't worth pursuing?

 

To be honest, all of this stuff about level design, cliffs and physics.....it requires level design where the gravity is pointing down. I.e. Grounded level design, rather than the floating tubes/planetoids we have here in LW.

More accurately it needs areas where gravity is consistent but the terrain isn't. There's no reason Lost World can't have this, and I would guess that it does; gravity can be oriented around the main tube, and paths going along the tube (like the two to the sides in this picture) can have hills that still function as hills, same as if they were on more "solid" ground.

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Yes, you are right. I checked. Well, I concede all of my points.

 

...are you going to say that any mechanic that requires teaching the player about it isn't worth pursuing?

 

 

 Except this one. Because no, teaching is obviously fine. But any mechanic that adds something so particular you'd have to spend time to virtually stop other mechanics to teach is more of a whim than a mechanic indeed. Not the case, but still something to look at.

Edited by Palas
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Except this one. Because no, teaching is obviously fine. But any mechanic that adds something so particular you'd have to spend time to virtually stop other mechanics to teach is more of a whim than a mechanic indeed. Not the case, but still something to look at.

 

I see no issue with teaching the player something new in the middle of play, as long it's done seamlessly, and keeps the momentum of the game going. See: Conversion gels in Portal 2.

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I thought that was exactly what Palas was saying? That teaching someone one mechanic should be done while being able to use the others that you've learned in the process.

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Conversion gels do not require the game to stop its core gameplay. It aggregates, not deviates. Unlike what would be the case if they somehow changed the way you have to use the portals.

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Conversion gels do not require the game to stop its core gameplay. It aggregates, not deviates. Unlike what would be the case if they somehow changed the way you have to use the portals.

 

This is about wisps/power-ups, no? The answer to this whole conundrum seems to be just to make your power-up more intuitive and practical. Something akin to the elemental shields, where the player is taught as the game goes how they work into the gameplay and how they react to the environment early on. "In a safe context," in this case, means that the player experience much more reward versus risk when trying to figure out the power, and the intuitiveness of the power means it shouldn't take them long to get the hang of it. That's sort of why I mentioned conversion gels: They come in at a slower part of the game, and the player is given ample time to figure out how they work without any gameplay/story emphasizing movement. This, again, is our safe context. Not so much a utter removal than a breather from the story, used to instruct the player further without excess stress.

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...No, it's not about the wisps. The wisps were poorly handled in Colours, but they are actually pretty cool if you use them as toys - which will hopefully be the case in SLW. Hence why I even suggested one of them to do the ceiling-running job.

 

If I could give you an example of intromissive mechanic, it would have to be Knuckles' Chaotix's existence Heavy & Bomb gameplay.

Edited by Palas
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The original line of discussion follows:

 

 

I don't think it takes long for a player to understand how Sonic reacts to curves as opposed to sharp angles, as far as cliffs go. The fact that the player might not expect it, I don't think that's a bad thing unless you expect them to react to it immediately and punish them for failing. Present it in a relatively safe context first and that's about as much preparation as you should need.

 

And honestly any kind of confusion or shock that people might have at it is pennies compared to the options it allows, IMO, especially in a 3D game.

 

But it takes a lot of time to figure out why gravity works in a context, but is completely ignored in the other, since curves generally don't annulate gravity in Sonic. And if you have to separate such a specific time and place to show the player what it's like, then I wonder if it's really so much more worth than it's trouble.

 

...are you going to say that any mechanic that requires teaching the player about it isn't worth pursuing?

 

Your argument (while admittedly not power-up/wisp based, which just shows you how out of it I am tongue.png) is fine on paper, but in practice I find it hard to substantiate. These things are pretty clearly explained to the player in early stages, where there is little risk per reward for exploring gameplay mechanics. It might catch them off guard at first, but it's by no means as debilitating as you make it out to be. The "specific time and place" to show off mechanics, then, is neatly woven throughout that early experience, where there isn't any big stress to get to the goal immediately and enough intuitiveness to the mechanics that one will likely stumble across at least a few of them just trying to get to the end of the stage.

 

I believe I understand what you're saying, but I think you're blowing it out of proportion a bit.

Edited by Sixth-Rate Soma
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Sonic needs to return to the adventure style of gameplay. It worked well until 06 hit. I believe sooner or later boost gameplay will die out.

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Sonic needs to return to the adventure style of gameplay. It worked well until 06 hit.

No, it was rotting out from beneath itself until it finally collapsed with '06.

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The original line of discussion follows:

 

 

Your argument (while admittedly not power-up/wisp based, which just shows you how out of it I am tongue.png) is fine on paper, but in practice I find it hard to substantiate. These things are pretty clearly explained to the player in early stages, where there is little risk per reward for exploring gameplay mechanics. It might catch them off guard at first, but it's by no means as debilitating as you make it out to be. The "specific time and place" to show off mechanics, then, is neatly woven throughout that early experience, where there isn't any big stress to get to the goal immediately and enough intuitiveness to the mechanics that one will likely stumble across at least a few of them just trying to get to the end of the stage.

 

I believe I understand what you're saying, but I think you're blowing it out of proportion a bit.

 

There are mechanics that would need to be taught seamlessly, like the pinball bumpers, and there are those which can't, because they're detached from everything that the game implies until that point. Even if the early experience is always an early experience and will most likely make everything you see seam "basic", there's no guarantee that the mechanics will be "neatly woven throughout it" just because you can't lose by not using them/using them indiscriminately.

 

Take how Angel Island taught you about the spindash, for instance. That was far from seamless even though it didn't need to be that way. It's not so intuitive that rolling doesn't break the wall, but a specific movement related to rolling does. Yet, the spindash is a mechanic related to rolling, thus aggregating value to something that was already there. So it's not just a matter of not punishing.

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No, it was rotting out from beneath itself until it finally collapsed with '06.

I wouldn't say it should return, but I do see something salvageable in some of the concepts.

 

For example, the Hubs are one, but that's a little tricky with some seeming to think they break up the flow rather than looking at them as rest areas.

The concept of multiple characters are somewhat salvageable, but this needs some balance to some of the characters such as Tails' flight breaking the level design as well as making these things optional.

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