(De-)Constructive Criticism

[tenchibr]

I prepared myself for the inevitable backlash I will get on this thread, but here it comes:

 

I have to admit: a small part of me likes conflict, but I don't mean for the sole sake of it. I relate conflict to learning from it as well teaching someone through it. At the same time, it's more like a love-hate relationship with it; although at the end of the day I learn from it, throughout the day I overthink and I get mood swings, like anger, resentment, and disbelief.

 

The reason I am bringing this up is this is a sort of a spin-off of a thread I made last year, "Why the animosity towards each other?". The difference is I made that thread at first with the intent of addressing how I perceived the forum as a whole and at the end of the day, even with some mishaps in it (one of which I actually caused), I believe it succeeded at what I intended for it to do: to bring awareness to issues and hopefully help others think twice before saying certain things.

 

I am not perfect, far from it; you don't even have to look far into my post history to find I had some disagreements recently. And I dropped it; I decided that sometimes, it's better to agree to disagree and that sometimes, it's best to keep certain things to yourself. The point is, I put myself on the spot for something I believed in, but I was prepared to be argued against, just not the way it happened.

 

Some people don't realize the harm that they can cause with some of the things that they say. I look back at what happened, and my final post on that topic even asked others to show me if I was wrong. The way I felt the feedback was directed at me was a torrent of finger-pointing and name-calling.

 

Now, I am not saying that the message was incorrect, but rather the delivery. And I just had to let that out; it really hurt my feelings that I had to take a break from it, and now that I am back, I have been dodging opportunities to put myself in that position again.

 

The reason why I opened up this thread is because I saw another perfect example of a staff member bringing up a point, and while I do agree with what was said, I don't agree with how it was said. The question then is: should I even get involved when right now I am just in the sidelines watching and risk getting attacked? So I chose to let it be.

 

That same concept also applies to something I have observed over the years, and I feel this is the most controversial argument I will ever make here: I am not a big fan of the "like" system because although I understand what it's for (to avoid spams and to promote good arguments), plenty of times I have seen posts that carry a condescending tone towards someone and the "likes" that get added to the post just play in my head like cyber-bullying.

 

And more often than not, I see those likes usually gather up in staff posts. I believe that there are members that will play favorites with staff. For example:

 

Member post: ohmygawdSonicissohot

 

Member #2 post:

Hey, lack of grammar is against the rules, just letting you know...

 

Staff post:

[Solkia]

That same concept also applies to something I have observed over the years, and I feel this is the most controversial argument I will ever make here: I am not a big fan of the "like" system because although I understand what it's for (to avoid spams and to promote good arguments), plenty of times I have seen posts that carry a condescending tone towards someone and the "likes" that get added to the post just play in my head like cyber-bullying.

 

I was basically just going to ignore this post, but this part in particular is something that has been bothering me for a long time. 

 

New member: "Hey guys! Sonic 2006!"

 

Mod: "No" 

 

60rep in 30 seconds

 

popular star

 

new member feels ashamed. Never comes back.

 

Although I'd argue amnesty comes with the territory of browsing the internet, the e-peen booster doesn't do much to help that.

 

I don't know how the IP board works, but I offer a solution: Rep isn't viewable through posts.

 

Sega-16 has this system where if you like someone's post, you can give them rep, as well as a little mention in their inbox. It isn't visible to anyone other than you and the other person, but there is a "rep count" number under your avatar.

 

It has the same effect without any of the amnesty to make it deplorable.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Solkia

[Lady Soniko]

I just hate people who play devil's advocate with you, and when someone else backs up their claims in an heated argument, they'll like that status and it feels like it's mockingly in spite of you sort of a "haha see, they agree with me, you're wrong!" but it's hard to pinpoint the problems when we have such a wide range of members here, we have lurkers, casuals,fans,super fans, boffins, know-it alls, firm, aggressive, extremely aggressive, NEEDLESSLY Aggressive, and of course the Devil's Advocate.

 

I know there are people who like to argue and have a hearty debate, but there are some people I feel take it too far to point it's almost like a spoilt child that can't get their own way, and rather than letting it drop, just constantly fan the flames until their point is made when at this point, you really just can't be arsed to argue with that person any more from the sheer annoyance of them being in your face obnoxiously. Even times when I've just been browsing an argument in a thread, there's a time where it just stops being an argument and just becomes elitist harassment of the "I'm right and your wrong, and I'm going to keep repeating so you know your place" and honestly it pisses me off.

 

The rep system is shit too because when someone is genuinely being an asshole and they get pos+ rep then it just inflates their ego more, so they think that what they are doing is perfectly fine, I never understood the reason behind this, it's not like the like system is anonymous? The name of the people who "liked" that comment are displayed RIGHT UNDER THE POST, so if you liked an asshole-ish post, then to be fair you're adding to the problem of them being a prick yourself and you should feel bad.

 

Oh and about the mods, I know they're just doing their job, but sometimes I think your right about people basically brown nosing them by liking the posts they do, I don't think the staff honestly care about the rep system when it comes to that sort of stuff though, but I never seen the whole appeal behind liking a post that's closing a thread, or putting a problematic member in place, I really like Solkia's idea about the anonymous repping though.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Super Soniko

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I know I fit several of those categories, primarily the aggressive ones.

 

I usually play Devil's Advocate to point out a flaw or an attitude I genuinely dislike and use it to return fire, up to the point of sacrificing my own interests so that the person of the attitude in questions suffers with me. Essentially "taking them with me" if they refuse to work along with me so we can both achieve what we want. Of course that's only in times when I can actually play it, and oftimes it's not useful to play. And yes, I understand that at its worst it's not particularly healthy, which is partly why I play it anyway when I feel the other side isn't convincing me and being downright greedy. But at the same time, I partially see it as giving someone who doesn't care a taste of their own medicine on how their idea would affect others who do care.

 

But what I think takes the cake is how some members want things to be treated as a zero sum game where in order for them to win someone else has to lose their own interests and assimilate with the winner. Now obviously you can't have everything inbetween and you certainly can't have it all, but there's a fine line to play when there something you can blend together and something you cannot. If you ask me, it's pretty hard to think of something that can't work alongside contrasting elements, but that there should be a degree of balance; a degree of light and dark, a degree of funny and serious, a degree of maturity and immaturity, so forth. My philosophy is that if it can be used, find a way to make use of it; if it cannot, find out why not and see if you can work around it to make use of it if possible; if all else fails, then try something different. Stubborn to some, relentless to others (yes, it's practically the same thing either way).

 

Possibly the most arrogant and head-up-my-ass thing to ever come out of me is that I believe there is a lack of creativity among a number of members, up to and including a downright refusal to be creative over something. Some people try hard but can't get anything out to present, and in that instance these are not the people I'm referring to - they can at least admit it while trying. I'm talking that whenever there is a problem or something that requires a solution, the first thing some would like to do is either stick their head in the sand and ignore it without bothering to think of alternatives, throw away the source of the problem and not worry about it, and/or block other ideas and potential solutions from other people who see ways of addressing the problem and solution.

 

To give an idea, this is like having a virus on your computer, and rather than try and fix it or let someone else who wants to try and fix so that it works, or better yet improve its performance, you'd rather let the computer "walk it off", or when that fails you throw it away and not worry about it. This isn't criticism, this is blocking. I'm more than open to hear about how my idea will lead to a problem that someone points out will need to be addressed and fix, I'm more than willing to hear solutions, and I'm definitely willing to work with someone willing to do the same. But when neither of our solutions aren't accommodating each other I find it best to find one that does - which only makes me shake my head when I see one side willing to go the extra mile and find one while the other refuses to listen to them, and only gets worst when someone points out several problems in the idea only for someone else to let it walk off with them.

 

Eh...that's my rant off my chest. And no doubt I'm guilty of much of these same criticisms I made, and more: for example, if I see a problem with something and no one is bothering to listen, or actually acknowledges the problems and insists on leaving them be, I intentionally annoy people about it until it gets addressed. I just refuse to let a problem be a problem, although that ends up leading to others wanting to delete the source, which leads me to complain and annoy people about that. I suppose that's just self-awareness?

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

I do kinda hate the rep system myself because it does have a habit of sending the wrong message to new members. That's its ok to be an asshole to people who have a different opinion than you.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The Great Internet Fuckwad Theory getting a tinge of gasoline...although I'd say that works both ways in some cases. While a new member who isn't being a dick about an opinion that the majority tends to not look kindly on shouldn't deserve hostility, another new member who IS being a dick about it tend to not deserve our kindness.

 

That being a double edged sword in itself, because a potential troll could play on to that and act like an innocent new member while actively trying to incite rage in others...ugh, that's just the paranoia in me talking.

 

Still doesn't justify being a dick however. But give someone anonymity and they tend to not care too much about the consequences depending on how much time they're willing to invest here.

Edited June 4, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Nepenthe]

While a rep system always has potential for abuse and definitely occurs, what we're ultimately discussing here is an inherent problem with the way people converse in topics along with people who got out of their way to idolize those members in question. While this is exacerbated by the rep system, it nonetheless transcends it. For one, some people just naturally act like shitheads online. That is their Internet persona and probably existed before the rep system in place, which is also reinforced when others either:

A.) Voice their approval of it in other ways (quoting to say "this" or "you win", laud how "right" the person always is and how they've shut down a topic, put certain posts in signatures or pictures, say a certain member is going to enter a thread before they have, take the idolizing to the statuses, adding to a dog pile instead of letting few members have a conversation, and any other number of ways we can communicate pleasure), or

B.) Don't report the behavior in the first place for whatever reason (like this annoyingly defeatist attitude that our community can't improve because people being bullies is inevitable online thus it should implicitly be acceptable), which doesn't allow staff to see anything right away, if at all, and inevitably drums up feelings of favoritism and approval of the bad behavior.

I'm not at all opposed to amending the rep system to suit the desires of the members, if it can be helped with the system's architecture. I just want to remind everyone that it is merely symptomatic of our community and not necessarily the cause. The cause is actually blatant: we foster some members to be bullies through direct or indirect approval of their actions. The only way to fix this, really, is to tell them collectively that this behavior isn't what we want through shunning and reporting it if necessary. We all get the community we effectively work for.

[Vertekins]

I think it all ultimately stems from the extremely prevalent mob mentality around here. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a close-knit community. It's when being close-knit inspires the community to converge on anything and/or everything contrary to the 'common' viewpoint as well as overwhelmingly liking on the common most 'accepted' viewpoint, creating an atmosphere of bigotry in a way. Quite a few Lost World opinions that aren't praising the game and express discontent at, say, the visual style, anything that is even rationally anti-Archie Sonic, posts praising aspects of more, ahem, controversial i.e "lower quality" Sonic games and spammy one-image posts are prime attractants for unreasonable dissent/praise.

 

It's at it's most visible in statuses. Certain controversial member gets banned, certain members (More often than not the ones I've seen are constant offenders) keep commenting and/or mocking the banned member despite one of the rules stating that discussing banned members is against the rules.

 

One member infamously posts a screamer, a whole host of members, beyond all rhyme and reason, kick up a shit about it beyond all that is rational.

 

There's a definite lack of maturity and tolerance.

 

They're all examples of the mob mentality and IMO, the biggest catalyst for this behavior aside from the immense lack of tongue-holding for those who have nothing nice or at least neutral to say. All I'm saying is that I think quite a few members have some growing up to do and are in desperate need of some basic netiquette.

[Kuzu]

I think that's mostly a consequence on part of the mods as well. Not to say you guys are doing a terrible job, but we don't really do much to curb such behavior and quite a few of the mods are active in the Sonic parts of the forum where most of this happens. I mean, if this was place was more strict with that type of stuff then I think we'd see less of it, but then we'd probably get complaints similar to the ones Retro gets about being "Elitists"

 

 

So, it really depends on how much of a problem do you see it as; Are you comfortable enough here to accept a somewhat hostile environment?

[Nepenthe]

At most, only me and Tornado effectively frequent the Sonic sections to any noticeable degree, and even then "Sonic" is such a big enough subject that we might still only frequent specific topics that interest us, topics which may not (or obviously are not) where the shit is really hitting the fan. I mean, I consider the Sonic sections my general home and I still have no idea what the hell tenchibr is specifically referring to that sparked this topic in the first place. But me and Tornado have caught people stirring trouble without the aid of a report, proving that we don't tolerate this behavior, but clearly we cannot catch it all because there's tons of topics already, we have a new game on the horizon which is causing an influx in activity and posting rates, and then time zones- there's been plenty of times I've woken up to the aftermath of an issue handled by other staffers. All of this is exactly why we practically have to beg people to report things, because unless you want us to be Big Brother and actually start dedicating effort to combing through every Sonic topic to retroactively strike and ban people, we still need your help.

[TheGerkuman]

I'm not sure I really want to talk about this subject in detail at the moment, but I thought I'd throw this into the topic while I could.

 

Have we really got to the point where we've got a topic with people, including some staffers (and former staffers) saying. 'Some of our members are shit.' Because if it is, I'm really starting to wonder why I'm here.

 

Edit: Just realised that my meaning might be misconstrued so I'll try and break it down a little more. I'm not sure if this is the sort of topic that needs to be discussed in the open. It is not an attack on anyone and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Son Gerku

[Vertekins]

I've been quite adverse to the notion of reporting in the past. I used to be uncomfortable with the concept of it to a degree (And what partially compounded that was the assumption that someone else would've already have reported) but now I view that outlook as a pathetic and weak-willed and an excuse-making one and now that the forum I so enjoy is being affected so much, I am now, from this minute onward, resolute to report what I see as rule-defying and asshole behavior. I acknowledge that moderating a forum of this scale must be difficult given the sheer degree of activity so I'll happily from now on report to give some form of assistance

[Nepenthe]

.-. Thank you.

For the record, there's nothing wrong with reporting. In fact, it's a good thing and there for a reason: it gives the community some control as to how it's to function. You've got the ability to tell staffers when and where a mess has been made so we can get to it and ultimately make the forum better for everyone. If people don't report, we're only going to get to what we see, and our viewpoint is inherently limited because there's so few of us. Normal members are our extra eyes into these things, so I'm serious when I say staff need members' help to make this place the best it can be.

[Komodin]

Okay, I must admit: I used to be quite scared of reporting forum posts in general, too, thinking that I'll not only get in trouble with the staff, but also the people I report. Heck, even now, when I know better and have generally stopped giving enough of a damn for such worries, I occasionally can't help but think that I must be annoying the staff to some extent with all of the reports I've made.

[Kuzu]

I never paid too much attention to reporting. Mostly because I saved it for pointless topics. If I felt someone was being antagonistic, I just blew them off because its the Internet. I guess I can report more often if its gonna help stop this attitude.

[Solkia]

Whenever I go to report something, I'm never sure what to type, and end up just not doing it at all.

 

And whenever I do think of something to type, it turns out to amount to "This guy is being mean (((("

 

Can you just leave the things blank?

 

EDIT: While I'm at it, I'd like to report that the IP smiley function in really obnoxious and I wish I could turn it off.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Solkia

[Pelly <3's U]

Just type why you're reporting it, it doesn't have to be anything amazing.

 

And solkia you can turn it off  !

[Nepenthe]

I should make one of those cheesy badges that anti-drug campaigns get school kids to wear. "I [your name here] pledge to report bad behavior to SSMB staff." And then when you sign it, you get those sugar cookies that they also promised and throw the badge off when you get home.

@ Komodin: We only hate dealing with reports from the same member when they're excessive, as in, you send in multiple ones for the same problem you initially reported on. But if you see five potential rules and etiquette violations across the forum, by all accounts we expect five reports from you. It's our job to sift through reports; if it annoyed us that badly, we wouldn't be here long.

Also, don't be afraid to point is to something you're unsure about, such as whether or not a topic is close to going off-rails or if someone's behavior is borderline but not blatantly rule-breaking. At least perk our ears to it, because we may decide that the topic indeed needs a reminder so people can cool down. Then everyone's happy. :3

[LATER BUDDY]

Seeing as we can bend our rep to -9999 or +9999 or whatever, I can't speak for all the staff but, I think the only care about rep we have is when it's on something that matters, which is an opinion on a topic just like everyone else. We're all guilty here of liking something negative in the past (I looked lawl), but I don't actually see that much harm in it. It's up to the individual to control themselves, and if they're honestly fueled by rep count for asshole-ish posts and remarks, it starts to wear on them, and eventually becomes a problem in the future if I can recall from past experience.

 

Also please report. Like you get my hugs if you do, XD. If you see anything that kinda looks not right to you, there's absolutely no harm in reporting it. Just because some of them don't get answered because you reported it, in no way means it was wrong. It's great that we got the chance to look over something we could've missed, and decide if it needs action or not. Posts, members, statuses, etc (screenshots even help!). So again, reporting are for winners!

 

Heck, I wish there was a way to like report posts to encourage it

[tenchibr]

I mean, I consider the Sonic sections my general home and I still have no idea what the hell tenchibr is specifically referring to that sparked this topic in the first place.

 

That's because it didn't happen in Sonic Discussion. With that said, I prefer not to talk about that specific issue, as this thread is not directly about it, and that situation was just the cherry on top.

[EuroMIX]

I actually do think that staff should either be exempt from the rating system altogether or they should be able to post normally, but also tag their decision-making posts in some way that clarifies they are making a judgement on an event which disables pointless "sucking-up" ratings.

 

e.g. Mod: "This is off topic guys" and instead of the popular tag caused by possible up-votes they tick something before posting that puts up an "important" tag or something of similar appearance to attract members to an important ruling a mod has made but doesn't allow it to be rated.

[tenchibr]

Another suggestion I have when it comes to likes is the ability to turn them on and off on a per-thread basis.

 

Some threads benefit greatly from the rep system; in fact, most threads here on Personal Discussion do. (I see it got moved to Member Feedback, that's ok; I wasn't sure where to post this because although it felt like it should have been on Member Feedback, I did on Personal Discussion because it felt personal and I felt like maybe I was the only one feeling that way.)

 

On Personal Discussion, here is an example of a post where "likes" work well:

 

http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/1491-express-your-emotions-topic/page-182#entry679916

 

I think rep works great to promote positivity; I do believe that sometimes, you have to be a bit strict when talking to someone, especially when standing up for someone, and that could generate rep as well. I feel like the staff gets more reps from posts like that not only because of brown-nosing but also because it's a way of members approving of what the staff is meant to do anyways; however, my main concern is delivery.

 

It's a lot easier for me to take a post that says "tenchibr, you tried to prove your point and while you have good intentions, it has started to become inappropriate to do so," vs. "tenchibr, you're coming off as *insert negative adjective here*. You need to drop it, now." Either response will get reps anyways (probably more on the more negative one), but I find it to be more hurtful to see a post full of likes on the more stern tone as opposed to the other. I would listen either way, but like a Brazilian slang goes, hearing the latter is like "swallowing a frog." Imagine yourself swallowing one; that's pretty much how seeing a post like that makes me feel and that's when I take a break.

 

Maybe I am too sensitive, and I am sorry if I am. This is why I originally had this on PD, because of how personal I take this shit.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I tend to use reports pre-emptively a lot of times. Basically, I want to continue the discussion going on, but I send a report because I want a mod to be on alert if shit hits the fan in the discussion and I sometimes warn the other member who's attitude seems to be getting more hostile not to get out of hand in the discussion.

 

I've been wondering if that's a bad thing in itself? I try not to provoke the other member when doing so, because that's just being down-right manipulative of people, but at the same time it's like I have an itch at the back of my head that something bad might happen.

 

And I don't report all that often online nowadays.

[Nepenthe]

Reporting a topic preemptively isn't a bad thing at all; that gets us to keep an eye on things just in case. Warning a member before you do so beforehand- depending on how you've done it- might just tread into backseat moderating territory. Just report on it and, if need be, leave for awhile to allow the situation to simmer down.

[Frogging101]

Okay, I must admit: I used to be quite scared of reporting forum posts in general, too, thinking that I'll not only get in trouble with the staff, but also the people I report. Heck, even now, when I know better and have generally stopped giving enough of a damn for such worries, I occasionally can't help but think that I must be annoying the staff to some extent with all of the reports I've made.

 

I don't think you have to worry too much about that (bolded). I'm pretty sure reports are anonymous (except to the staff); on any forum software I've used this is the case, and on here there's no notification option for when "A user reports my post" or such. People won't know if you report their post unless you tell them.