(De-)Constructive Criticism

[Danj86]

I've been quite adverse to the notion of reporting in the past. I used to be uncomfortable with the concept of it to a degree (And what partially compounded that was the assumption that someone else would've already have reported) but now I view that outlook as a pathetic and weak-willed and an excuse-making one and now that the forum I so enjoy is being affected so much, I am now, from this minute onward, resolute to report what I see as rule-defying and asshole behavior. I acknowledge that moderating a forum of this scale must be difficult given the sheer degree of activity so I'll happily from now on report to give some form of assistance

 

Not really directing what I'm about to say, at you Verte. It's how you described being uncomfortable about reporting that reminded me of something I said very recently. But first I'll also say I've been pretty guilty of thinking like that in the past, too.

 

It's the notion that assuming somebody else will deal with the issue, or in this case, reporting. Reminded me about the time my brother was assaulted in public, a subject I only just mentioned to Sonikku_Kiah a couple of days ago in the PD section.

 

Goku did once tell me that sometimes others are too preoccupied with there own problems that they can't really support other people. I suppose I can understand that, but I can't help but believe that most are naturally selfish. I came to that conclusion when my brother was assaulted in public several years back while surrounded by people who did fuck all to help him. It wasn't until somebody my brother knew from his past showed up, that he got help.

Add to that the fact that the police where equally useless and my brother who has always had health problems and was in no condition to defend himself, then you are left with one hellova angry and bitter me.

 

I only got through that chapter thanks to Glenn. But it still angers me so much how some people are like that. Humans couldn't survive if we all behaved like selfish fools. Think about all the doctors, fire fighters and nurses who train there whole lives in the pursuit of helping others...

 

I have frequently speculated as to why nobody would assist a person in need and I have heard many stories similar to this. One possibility is selfishness as mentioned in my quote.

Another could be the assumption that somebody else will deal with it. As you rightly said Verte, it's just a weak-willed excuse. The staff shouldn't have to request us to use the report function more. If you witnessed somebody you cared about being bullied or beaten up would you still assume somebody else will deal with it?

 

With my almost 10 year long battle against clinical depression I've learned a phrase that sticks close to me these days. "Things aren't going to change unless you do something about it."

 

​Oh...I just realised I never mentioned how my brother was in that other post. Well he eventually recovered but had to have surgery to properly fix his nose that was broken. A surgery that had to be repeated twice more because they botched it up.

While the fuck face that did it. Never went to jail. He was put on trial, but never got locked away...

Edited June 5, 2013 by Dan-imeJ86

[Vertekins]

Not really directing what I'm about to say, at you Verte. It's how you described being uncomfortable about reporting that reminded me of something I said very recently. But first I'll also say I've been pretty guilty of thinking like that in the past, too.

 

It's the notion that assuming somebody else will deal with the issue, or in this case, reporting. Reminded me about the time my brother was assaulted in public, a subject I only just mentioned to Sonikku_Kiah a couple of days ago in the PD section.

 

I have frequently speculated as to why nobody would assist a person in need and I have heard many stories similar to this. One possibility is selfishness as mentioned in my quote.

Another could be the assumption that somebody else will deal with it. As you rightly said Verte, it's just a weak-willed excuse. The staff shouldn't have to request us to use the report function more. If you witnessed somebody you cared about being bullied or beaten up would you still assume somebody else will deal with it?

 

With my almost 10 year long battle against clinical depression I've learned a phrase that sticks close to me these days. "Things aren't going to change unless you do something about it."

 

​Oh...I just realised I never mentioned how my brother was in that other post. Well he eventually recovered but had to have surgery to properly fix his nose that was broken. A surgery that had to be repeated twice more because they botched it up.

While the fuck face that did it. Never went to jail. He was put on trial, but never got locked away...

 

I agree that assuming that somethings been reported already and using that reasoning to not report is misguided and I used it as one excuse not to report but there's a difference between that and choosing not to help someone in serious need of help in RL. They're not entirely comparable situations. In the past, the forum wasn't quite in the state it is today so noticing bullying and mobbing wasn't a factor for reporting the overwhelming majority of the time. Now that it is and now that I've reached the end of my tether with it, I'm setting myself to reporting assholish behaviour and rule-breaking posts, partly because I despise such attitudes and partly because I want to assist the moderator's by making their job easier as the fact that reporting isn't used as much as I assumed it was just strengthened my resolve to do so.

 

I'm eager to help and I love to and I want to do so by helping the mods by embracing the report function for once. As I said in my profile, I welcome PM's for advice or casual talk with open arms and I love to answer questions to the best of my ability when a member posts a topic asking for clarity or answers on a subject when some other members would post shit like "Inb4lock", would backseat moderate or snark at the topic creator or spam with stupid non-answers.

[tenchibr]

 Think about all the doctors, fire fighters and nurses who train there whole lives in the pursuit of helping others...

 

 

I just have to say: with the exceptions of fire fighters and even cops, the doctors and nurses that I have seen tend to talk more about how they don't get paid enough or how they cannot afford a $5 footlong from Subway more than helping others. I can say that because I worked at a Subway inside a hospital for 2 1/2 years.

 

The truth is even if I had no training and I worked as a janitor, even then I believe I would want to be the best person I could be. And that includes helping others. But to tie that back into this topic, I have to admit: I am a little of a wuss, and as much as I would like to believe that, like Sonic, I would have the courage to always stand up for what is right, it's in my nature IRL to avoid conflict. Funny that I say that, after admitting I like conflict here, but it makes sense: I feel safer to an extent here (being anonymous helps).

 

But then I end up having mental breakdowns here once in a while and you get threads like this one! Yay for my mental instability.

 

Look, no matter who you are, you have to stand up for what's right, even if there's a whole world out there to put you down. But if you are gonna stand up in a way that is not constructive, you are just as bad as the enemy.

[Kiah]

There's a definite lack of maturity and tolerance.

 

They're all examples of the mob mentality and IMO, the biggest catalyst for this behavior aside from the immense lack of tongue-holding for those who have nothing nice or at least neutral to say. All I'm saying is that I think quite a few members have some growing up to do and are in desperate need of some basic netiquette.

 

This. But above all I think the problem is a definite lack of respect, which goes in hand with a lack of maturity, tolerance, and self-control. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, in the end it boils down to having a lack of respect for one another in regards to one's thoughts, opinions, and feelings. Something to keep in mind is that behind every username, behind every avatar here at the SSMB is a human being with feelings, and we all desire and expect to be respected. Nobody enjoys being disrespected, more times than none the snark and sarcasm makes us feel bad and angry, which usually causes us to retaliate in return, or even causes members to leave the forum, never intending to return due to feelings of being humiliated and bullied.

 

I do feel that the "like" system is a catalyst to this behavior as well, especially seeing that these harsh, inconsiderate, and sarcastic responses are "rewarded" with a bunch of positive rep and popular stars, which just eggs members on to continue acting in the same condescending manner, seeing that it gives them a ton of "likes", I believe. And seeing that some of these posts get more "likes" than a well thought-out elaborate post on this forum, it seems like the massive amount of members "liking" the snarky post is like a bandwagon of some sorts, as if it is the cool thing to do, which in turns adds up to being a massive put-down to the member the insult was directed to. I also feel that the large amount of "likes" of posts of moderators when they are correcting a member or locking a thread (basically they are doing their job) is a bandwagon of action as well. I see both instances as instigation by those "liking" these specific posts.

 

I feel that if you can't be respectful of others' opinions on a forum then you shouldn't be here, let alone on the Internet interacting with others. Generally speaking, just because you disagree or dislike or don't understand even what someone said doesn't give you a "green light" to be disrespectful and insulting. You can disagree with something without being rude about it. We don't have to necessarily like or agree with something someone says, but we should respect what one has to say without harassing them or making them feel bad or stupid as well as embarrassing them for sharing their thoughts and opinions on this forum, which we are all entitled to do.

 

I understand and know that the forum rules are broken from time to time, but as mentioned previously in this thread reporting these instances is so important. In the back of my mind I thought reporting things to the moderators were "petty" in a sense, and I thought I would be bothering them and wasting their time with the reports. I now see how I was wrong with my thinking as I was totally unaware of how helpful reporting is to the moderators until reading this thread. So from now on I will personally make it a point to report if in fact that I see something worth reporting aside from running across spambots.

 

Now there is a difference between an insult and criticism, as they are not the same. Insults are just bad all around where as criticism can be a good thing. I don't have a problem with criticism in itself, and I welcome it even, as I see it as means to bring something to my attention that I was absolutely unaware of, possibly change my stance on a matter with a different point of view, or even teach me something. The problem is that criticism is presented in a way around here that lacks tact, and leaves one feeling bad and/or stupid, as if they lack common sense.

 

I do admit at times, the temptation is there to act in an unkind manner within me on occasion, seeing that the response and positive rep that it usually gets, as I am one of those members that really like receiving rep points. But at what expense am I willing to get this positive rep, especially by being negative (that's quite an oxymoron, isn't it?!)? Doing so would contribute more to the unpleasant atmosphere, and is it worth it? Is it worth it to be disrespectful seeing that doing so will increase hostility and could cause hurt feelings to others? There isn't enough "likes" in the world to make that worth it at the expense of someone's feelings. There are consequences for our actions, be it good or bad. So it's a good idea to think before hitting that "Reply" button, especially if it is something negative with the likely adverse impact it can and will cause. 

 

I know I've gone on tangent here, but if I was to drive one point home it would be this: We need to respect one another, despite differences in our thoughts and opinions, and think about how our words and actions may and will impact others, be it positive or negative, including feeding off of the negative actions of others which definitely makes matters worse.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Sonikku_Kiah

[tenchibr]

I couldn't have said it better even if I tried.

 

"Tact"... That's the most important word in Sonikku's post; it's the core of all of my argument.

 

Because not everyone is the same, there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to criticizing someone. I know there are members here with a heart of steel, and they can take the beating much more harshly - and in some cases, they might need it.

 

Then there's me, and others as well. A handful of arguments being made so far were for the defense of new members, and I think that's cool; but I am not new. And because of that, I don't believe the kinds of behavior that are directed at my expense are warranted because I am not fresh meat anymore.

 

In fact, by now you guys should know me already, and if not, just learn to observe certain patterns of communication. I try to be clever, and sometimes that can translate into elitism, but I promise you; I try to keep an open mind about things. I just ask that you do the same for me.

 

TL;DR - More protection for new members, definitely, but don't forget the other members; because we are just as human.

 

Edit: I was just lurking around, and I felt like I needed to share a little bit of my POV when it comes to certain threads that I believe hurt more from the rep system than gain from it:

 

 

I just read through it for the first time tonight, and I got that feeling like I am watching an inevitable train wreck in slow-motion... So many emotions and opinions on the table, it's like I am playing Minesweeper; I get afraid of getting involved in a topic so heated like this.

 

And my favorite post on the whole thread?

 

page-3#entry622503

 

This is a perfect example of the kind of post I like to read here coming from someone who is not merely disagreeing with the OP, but rather attempting to enlighten him/her. And to add insult to injury, only the OP "liked" it, when I believe that a post like that should lead by example.

Edited June 5, 2013 by tenchibr

[Vertekins]

Edit: I was just lurking around, and I felt like I needed to share a little bit of my POV when it comes to certain threads that I believe hurt more from the rep system than gain from it:

 

 

I just read through it for the first time tonight, and I got that feeling like I am watching an inevitable train wreck in slow-motion... So many emotions and opinions on the table, it's like I am playing Minesweeper; I get afraid of getting involved in a topic so heated like this.

 

And my favorite post on the whole thread?

 

page-3#entry622503

 

This is a perfect example of the kind of post I like to read here coming from someone who is not merely disagreeing with the OP, but rather attempting to enlighten him/her. And to add insult to injury, only the OP "liked" it, when I believe that a post like that should lead by example.

 

The reception of that topic of mine always came off as bizarre to me. On one hand, there was much contempt for it but on the other hand, I think the OP resonated with quite a few people if the 43 rep for it is something to go by. Still a bit confused by that.

 

Frogging's post and it's single rep point only serves to prove as a particularly stark example of how the most amiable posts in response to the OP are skipped over in favor of more cynical posts, echoing one of the problems with the forum in that naysaying attitudes are praised whilst more amiably reasoning ones aren't. I don't regret making that topic. If anything, it only strengthened my perception and liking of Sonic for his traits even more. So at the end of the day I'm not put-out by the reception or by certain members claiming that my interpretations and opinions are meritless.

[Nepenthe]

I don't think the actual points people are making were inherently wrong. People disagreed with the argument on the basis of the actual premises that had been laid out at that point. I don't think anyone held actual contempt for the topic itself nor you either; wander into any ShtH thread or Sonic 06 thread and I guarantee you people will be throwing out the "Your opinion is wrong" card in all of its idiotic manifestations.

That being said, it did get unnecessarily heated really quickly, due in no small part to me nonetheless; Imagine that (I'm sorry for that, btw. -.-). But ironically, I find the oddest thing about the topic is that I feel such an analysis would've gotten less confrontational if we were talking about any other character that wasn't already controversial. I don't know what it is about Sonic himself that earns a lot of dismissal, but he seems to get a lot of it when I feel he's not written any better nor worse than most of the cast.

[Vertekins]

I don't think the actual points people are making were inherently wrong. People disagreed with the argument on the basis of the actual premises that had been laid out at that point. I don't think anyone held actual contempt for the topic itself nor you either; wander into any ShtH thread or Sonic 06 thread and I guarantee you people will be throwing out the "Your opinion is wrong" card in all of its idiotic manifestations.

That being said, it did get unnecessarily heated really quickly, due in no small part to me nonetheless; Imagine that (I'm sorry for that, btw. -.-). But ironically, I find the oddest thing about the topic is that I feel such an analysis would've gotten less confrontational if we were talking about any other character that wasn't already controversial. I don't know what it is about Sonic himself that earns a lot of dismissal, but he seems to get a lot of it when I feel he's not written any better nor worse than most of the cast.

 

No worries To elaborate, it was that contributed to my positive perception of Sonic and strengthened it. My reasons and resoluteness for liking his characterization doesn't stem from the way the other members dismissed it in that topic.

[tenchibr]

I don't think the actual points people are making were inherently wrong. People disagreed with the argument on the basis of the actual premises that had been laid out at that. I don't think anyone held actual contempt for the topic itself nor you either; wander into any ShtH thread or Sonic 06 thread and I guarantee you people will be throwing out the "Your opinion is wrong" card in all of its idiotic manifestations.

That being said, it did get unnecessarily heated really quickly, due in no small part to me nonetheless; Imagine that (I'm sorry for that, btw. -.-). But ironically, I find the oddest thing about the topic is that I feel such an analysis would've gotten less confrontational if we were talking about any other character that wasn't already controversial. I don't know what it is about Sonic himself that earns a lot of dismissal, but he seems to get a lot of it when I feel he's not written any better nor worse than most of the cast.

 

You are on the right track with what I am trying to say... In a "debate" topic like that one, there is no right or wrong answer, at least, not in my eyes. It's all about delivery.

 

The issue with me was not WHAT was said, but rather HOW. In fact, let me point out that Vertekins did take the feedback and wrote a Part 2 post to reflect, which NOT judging by the number of rep vs. part 1 (people do tend to rep OP's more than second or third ones by the same person), I find it was better received judging by the replies.

 

I can't speak for Vertekins, but if I was Vertekins, I would say that Frogging's feedback was the one that influenced me the most, even though others were also saying SIMILAR things; I would've taken his in the most receptive way, and therefore, learned the most from it.

 

One of the problems with cynical posts is that instead of attempting to educate the target, they try to demoralize; instead of sounding more convincing such that the target changes teams, those posts just add more frustration than education and the target spends more time upset than enlightened.

[-blank-]

I know this has been brought up before, but damn if it doesn't bear repeating;

 

Most of the time, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. In real life, I'm sure a lot of you have encountered someone whose words were friendly, but their tone of voice suggested the complete opposite. Well, it's the same thing online. Except for the fact that tone is a lot more difficult to tell in text and the fact that the words are hardly 'friendly', but the basic rule is the same.

 

It's like what Verte said one time (at least, I think it was Verte) - if you can't say anything at least neutral, don't say anything at all. Heck, maybe before you post, read over it to make sure you're not coming off as an asshole, and if you feel you are, change the wording so that you come across less harsh and stuff or something to that effect. Just a suggestion.

 

What members need to understand, is that there are people who react really badly to harsh criticism. I notice it a lot of the 06 topic - who the hell cares if they like the game? Are they harming anyone by liking the game? No. Stop acting like they are. It's not the end of the world if someone likes something you hate and vice versa. The 'your opinion sucks' card is dropped far too many times and quite frankly, I'm sick of it. Like I said before, some people are really sensitive about stuff like this and one needs to be careful of what they say. Because quite frankly, if all you're going to be towards people is an asshole, then you need to get off the freaking internet.