Jump to content
Shane

Sonic after Lost World?

Recommended Posts

I still think the run button is a good idea. It can still work with acceleration based movement, it doesn't need to limit your non-running speed to a walk, and it does provide more control over Sonic's speed than not having it. It works for Mario, it works for Rayman, it works for dozens of other platformers I'm sure, I don't know why it wouldn't work for Sonic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because (to me) the whole parkour system was too slow and cumbersome.

So given what you just said, rather than trying to make it faster and fluid next time, the first thing to come to mind instead is to give up and throw it away and not do better next time?

 

And people wonder why we don't progress enough...

 

Sonic should be based around speed and platforming, a lot like Colours and Generations achieved.

Yet what Colors and Generations also achieved was stagnation and crippling overspecialization to the point of being akin glorified racer with automated moments that handholds and takes some control away. Hardly anything more than power-ups have actually improved its formula since it was conceived in Unleashed, and is primarily designed for speedrunning at the push of a button while also punishing you for not paying attention and memorizing the level thanks to its chaotic difficulty curve. I think we can do better than that, and the parkour system is one way of achieving that.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the run button is really redundant, in general and in Lost World. In this game, I swear there's not one loop without a speed booster plastered in front of it. They tried to prove a point about how the parkour can be useful, but they never give you enough space to breath when it comes to using the parkour yourself to try it out. Not just loops as well, most of the time when I tried to wall jump somewhere not mandatory, invisible springs would just fling me up there instead. This has been an issue in past Sonic games, but it's reached it's peak here.

 

I don't want it with less controlling stages in future games either. I've always seen Sonic about being able to gain speed as opposed to just being given the speed. The boost games admittedly took that away, but you still had to react in time. In this game, seeing as the run button is apparently the setting that most people use and doesn't force you react too fast like the boost, it ruins the entire thing for me. I felt like I was playing 3D Rayman, not Sonic to be honest. I loved picking up speed in Adventure and the classics by rolling or using loops and hill to my advantage, but in this game there's really none of that at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So given what you just said, rather than trying to make it faster and fluid next time, the first thing to come to mind instead is to give up and throw it away and not do better next time?

 

And people wonder why we don't progress enough...

 

Yet what Colors and Generations also achieved was stagnation and crippling overspecialization to the point of being akin glorified racer with automated moments that handholds and takes some control away. Hardly anything more than power-ups have actually improved its formula since it was conceived in Unleashed, and is primarily designed for speedrunning at the push of a button while also punishing you for not paying attention and memorizing the level thanks to its chaotic difficulty curve. I think we can do better than that, and the parkour system is one way of achieving that.

In the end, it's all down to preference, really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I may be a bit biased. But I would like to see Tails playable again in future titles. If not as a side character to Sonic. Perhaps a game of his own with Eggman as the nemesis. Genius vs Genius.

 

Not likely to happen. But throwing it out there as a possible Tails spin off that's Tails Sky patrol-esk. How about a game that combines Tails' Sonic Adventure 1 game play with his Sonic Adventure 2 game play (and more)?

 

Of course it would focus upon the Tornado (2) with it's ability to be a mech, drive and fly. Then to over come some obstacles. Tails could get out on foot and fly. Such obstacles as locked doors within facilities that have air vents only Tails himself can fit through to find a switch in connecting rooms with platforming. You get the drift.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think the run button is a good idea. It can still work with acceleration based movement, it doesn't need to limit your non-running speed to a walk, and it does provide more control over Sonic's speed than not having it.

Really depends on how they handle it. In Lost World it was just a gear; "push button to go a slightly higher speed than before." That's is pointless quite frankly.

Either way a run button simply isn't necessary, all they need is a better acceleration system (that is affected by slopes!!!!!!).

 

It works for Mario, it works for Rayman, it works for dozens of other platformers I'm sure, I don't know why it wouldn't work for Sonic.

Because Sonic isn't Mario, or Rayman, or indeed any other platformer. What works for them, doesn't necessarily work for Sonic.

If you're adamant on having a run button, you'd need to re-purpose it anyway. In Mario and Rayman, its just like LW, second gear; a higher top speed. Sonic is a game about movement and a game about speed. Segregating Sonic's speed, such that he can only go fast after you press a button to allow it, kind of defeats the point if you ask me. If it needs to exist, it could only work, as a means of increasing acceleration.

I'm for making Sonic games as simple as possible to control. All you really need, is the analogue stick for running (HINT: its analogue, you can go slowly by not pushing the stick down all the way), a Jump button (double-tap for jump-dash or homing attack in the presence of enemies), a spindash button (you can have a crouch button, and require mashing of the jump button, if you REALLY want) and that's really it.  Based on those simple inputs, you just need to build a robust movement system and proper physics/collision mapping to the level terrain

 

Extra things like tapping a shoulder button to get Sonic to sidestep and run along a wall he's running next to (L or R depending on which side of Sonic the wall is), can be added, but the more buttons you end up mapping functions to, the better a job you have to do at explaining everything clearly to a novice or child....Lost World doesn't really give me the impression that Sonic Team are capable of this.

 

Simple to pick up and play, but difficult to master, is something I feel should be the principle which Sonic games should abide by.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^ Scar's post:

 

I've got absolutely no problem with a parkour button or even a walk button for where the precision platforming is involved, but as far as Sonic is concerned running should be your primary movement. Having to hold down a trigger for what was probably a sizeable 80 to 90% of the game felt quite arbitrary.

 

Moving on...

 

I'm having a very hard time thinking about where Sonic is going after Lost World. At first I thought that there were some parts I was pretty certain about with regards to things like the plot and tone, because SEGA finally seem to have settled on one particular style. But then LW sold pretty poorly and didn't exactly dazzle in terms of critical reception either. Granted that has a lot to do with the Wii U as a platform, but IIRC the 3DS version hasn't fared an awful lot better and Nintendo handhelds have always been one of, if the most absolute most profitable platform for Sonic games. On top of that there's the gameplay, which hasn't sat well consistently with any group of people.

 

We've got just one more game left in the Nintendo exclusivity deal. Lost World, like Colours before it, seems like it was especially catered towards Nintendo/Mario players and the younger fans, but unfortunately that no longer seems to be paying off. There's also Sonic Boom to consider (shoot me for bringing this up constantly) which could very well end up being the new 'face of the franchise. While Lost World did hit bum note with a number of critics and fans, it's pretty much an action-comedy in a similar way to what Boom could very well be.

 

There's such a mixture of things going with critical reception, fan reception, the upcoming Sonic Boom, the end of the Nintendo deal, lacklustre sales of the two most recent games... it's honestly just anyone's guess. I don't think the direction with the story and generally light and comedic atmosphere are going to change all things considered, but at the same time I'm really wondering about just how well it's working. I get the impression that SEGA went with Nintendo because they're historically the safest bet for such things. Doesn't seem to be the case right now.

 

It will be very interesting to see what sales and profit predictions were for Lost World, and then how things actually pan out when SEGA's financial report surfaces in the New Year. I can't actually imagine that they were too high unless they expect the Wii U to shift a lot of new units before the report is due.

 

Sonic's next game after Lost World will most probably be a quite similar, but ultimately a much more favourable experience all around. How the series goes ahead from there it's just too early to say. Lots of possibilities, for better and for worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because Sonic isn't Mario, or Rayman, or indeed any other platformer. What works for them, doesn't necessarily work for Sonic.

Is there a reason it doesn't work for Sonic?

All you really need, is the analogue stick for running (HINT: its analogue, you can go slowly by not pushing the stick down all the way)

The problem with this is that I feel you have better directional control the further you tilt the stick. When you're at max tilt, you can brace the stick against the edge, plus, the further you are from center, the greater the distance the stick has to travel to move a certain angle. I don't really want to be sacrificing one for the other when we can just add a button.

... but the more buttons you end up mapping functions to, the better a job you have to do at explaining everything clearly to a novice or child....Lost World doesn't really give me the impression that Sonic Team are capable of this.

If you can't trust them to be able to explain the controls I don't know why you'd expect them to be any good at anything. And SLoW is an anomaly, anyway; usually the games are packed with tutorials, to the point of being obnoxious at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The question is, how much do you think you should be walking in a Sonic game? I agree that the analogue stick alone isn't particularly suited to slow speed movements, but that's not how you really spend most of your time in a Sonic game. It doesn't work for Sonic because you normally want to be moving quickly. That's why a walk button makes much more sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I end up coming to the opposite conclusion, but for the same reason. Given that you generally want to go fast in a Sonic game, it seems more natural to have a "go faster" button that you can release when you want to go less fast, than a button whose sole purpose is slowing you down.

Plus I think it's easier for new players if the slower speeds are the fallback neutral state, rather than having to remember the button to press when things get out of hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the way the series has worked for every game prior, and I can't say it's ever been problem. There has been many, many control problems, but Sonic having a high movement speed under normal conditions isn't one of them. They can be fixed in other ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about an in-level speed modifier? Kinda like a dash pad, but instead of giving you a temporary boost, it increases your top speed and acceleration a little? Could design levels around something like that. Include a negative speed modifier too, and bam, instant obstacle. Or, y'know, it'd be there to safely 'catch' players to save them from hurtling off something?

Then you wouldn't need a run or walk button, and the player's speed would be decided by that player's skill in collecting the boosters and avoiding the brakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either way, I think its paramount that the base speed is raised. Cause walking in LW was far too goddamn slow to be of any use. Going just up to SA1/2 speeds shouldn't be too much to handle, for the basic running speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah. I've been wondering if there was a topic like this around.

First off - Run button. Lost World 3DS was a pain with the run button, as Sonic walked so slow, you just felt compelled to hold the run button at all times [see Cobanermani456's 3DS playthrough], and I'm hoping to play the WiiU version Christmas to get a better idea of it. Deeper into the system of that game, the parkour can be improved, and the Wisps either improved drastically or removed altogether.

Which then leads into giving us playable characters as well as me discussing the games after Lost World.

What I'd say is a game giving us the classic gameplay in 3D, with other playable characters.

Even better, would be a game relative to a main game and side game all-in-one. It plays like a main Sonic game, but doesn't feature Sonic at all. Something along the lines of a Knuckles' Chaotix in 3D, but with Adventure 1 character select, and slightly varying gameplay elements for each character [Mighty plays like Sonic, Espio can turn invisible to avoid enemies, etc. etc.]. This basically then gives us five characters with improved or modified backstories and characterisations.

Or failing that, Generations gameplay but a continuation of Lost World's story [as non-existant as it was at the end].

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Sega make a Sonic game for the Xbox 360 and PS3. Hopefully with Tails,Knuckles,Shadow and Silver involved in the game and as playable characters.  I have that there will be a game coming out next year for the Xbox One, Playstation 4 and the Wii U.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Sega make a Sonic game for the Xbox 360 and PS3. Hopefully with Tails,Knuckles,Shadow and Silver involved in the game and as playable characters.  I have that there will be a game coming out next year for the Xbox One, Playstation 4 and the Wii U.

 

Not a chance for either of those. First of all, the 360 and PS3 are already last-gen consoles; with the release of the Xbox One, the next generation has officially become the current generation, and I don't think Sega wants to go backwards.

 

Second, there's one more Nintendo-exclusive Sonic game in the works, and it's increasingly looking like it'll be the next big game.

 

 

Hopefully Sonic does make the jump to PS4 and Xbone at some point, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about an in-level speed modifier? Kinda like a dash pad, but instead of giving you a temporary boost, it increases your top speed and acceleration a little? Could design levels around something like that. Include a negative speed modifier too, and bam, instant obstacle. Or, y'know, it'd be there to safely 'catch' players to save them from hurtling off something?

Then you wouldn't need a run or walk button, and the player's speed would be decided by that player's skill in collecting the boosters and avoiding the brakes.

This isn't a half bad idea.  The 2D sonic games utilized this to an extent.  Some levels were just not conducive to running at high speeds constantly, meaning "gotta go fast" was mostly for better players.  Contrary to what commercials said, Sonic games were not about just speed, but also it was about platforming by using momentum and Sonic's ball like properties to conquer terrain.  Speed was Sonic's superpower though, and was much more marketable than "omg he spinz!"  But we DO have speedy memories from the classics, don't we?  Yes, from a few select areas and zones, we were given moments to really break the sound barrier.  Gimmicks like launching cannons and high speed tubes allowed sudden rushes, and Zones like Chemical Plant and Starlight Zone are designed in such a way that Sonic often ends up going much faster than he does in the rest of the game.

Basically, Sonic handled manageably for platforming, but there were areas designed to allow you to reach top speed.  Keeping Sonic at a moderate run pace most of the time could work just fine, so long as the levels are built in such a way to allow you chances to get out all your "gotta go fast."  Personally, I'd be rather happy to see a return to the "start slow, build up speed" model.

 

As for parkour... I still have to rent the game, but in the demo it felt like an easy way out.  Also, Sonic should grab ledges regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I end up coming to the opposite conclusion, but for the same reason. Given that you generally want to go fast in a Sonic game, it seems more natural to have a "go faster" button that you can release when you want to go less fast, than a button whose sole purpose is slowing you down.

Plus I think it's easier for new players if the slower speeds are the fallback neutral state, rather than having to remember the button to press when things get out of hand.

 

But was this ever an issue in older games? I think it's a lot more satisfying to earn your speed rather than just press a button and get it right away. It not only was more rewarding to me when completing a level, but it also never caused any issues to me at all when playing those games. I think a run button isn't really as "new" as they made it to be, since EVERY platforming game out now has a run button (Mario, DK, Rayman, etc), or has you going at one fixed speed the whole time while holding the analog stick.

 

The run button/spindash to me is just the same as the boost gameplay, but less "in your face". I still think having no run button would be just as accessible to newcomers, and it'd also be fun for the more hardcore Sonic fans as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^

 

I think that Dio's ideal run button for a Sonic game has always been more akin to that of the accelerate button in racers, whereby it doesn't grant instantaneous speed but allows you to pick up speed progressively.  Except, you can still use the analogue stick alone to move slower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just want them to improve the formula from Lost World. I think there is so much potential for it.

 

I'd also like to see them try to make levels with the sheer number of pathways as Lost World's, but on flat ground instead of tubes (there can still be tubes, but I want flat ground too. Also, get rid of the auto-scrolling and 2D segments. The padding only drags the game down

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering that the Colors/Storybook team have inarguably been the most active side of Sonic Team so far (Secret Rings, Black Knight, Colors, assistance with Generations), something tells me Lost World is an example of the Colors team finally reaching a point of fatigue. All the "variety" aspects of the game as well as the Mario influences makes me think they didn't just ingest Mario influences into to the game to have the game appeal to Mario fans, but also to cut some corners here and there in development in a sense, which I think also explains a lack of consistency with the game.

 

Lost World has the simpler but stylized artstyle in the final product, but then you see pieces of concept art for the levels, such as Silent Forest and Desert Ruins, which looks more like the usually more-detailed artstyle of other Sonic games. And the toned down speed in the slower-paced platform levels, yet along with it you also see on-rails levels like Honeycomb Highway. Bosses in which the Zeti fight you in hand-to-hand combat, usually with an object or two (Zomom and Zazz), level-specific gimmicks (Zik and Zeena), or mechs (Zavok and Zor). Zones that are either grounded within in the world itself that share worlds that are staple world settings in the Mario games or "variety" zones that have little to nothing with the world, with a couple fitting more in a Sonic game (casino level has classic Sonic influences out the wazoo, honeycomb level has Secret-Rings styled on-rails gameplay, etc.). Then you look at the Storybook team's previous independent project, which was Colors. Despite it's overall premise which outright sounds like a Galaxy knockoff, the two games otherwise have little in common.

 

The final Wii U-exclusive Nintendo game is presumably by the Unleashed team, which I'd like to assume had more development time than the Colors team did with Lost World, but we'll just have to wait and see. But even with that said, I seriously want Sega to let another developer take a crack at a Sonic platformer so Sonic Team can have more development time on developing the next Sonic game. Hate to say it, but it can even be Dimps at this point for all I care as long as it means Sonic Team/Sega allows them to make a original Sonic game instead of than being tasked to make a series (Sonic 4 saga) or a handheld variant (Colors/Gens/LW).

 

Though again, all of this could just be me just overthinking things like I usually do sometimes. :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.